Quote from: carlb on December 05, 2015, 04:30:53 AM
NORTH ATLANTIC Treaty Organization.

What part of the NORTH ATLANTIC is ISLAMIC Turkey In?

Since Turkey was able to sell it's self as being a buffer against Russia, or rather the old Soviet Union for European nations, and we wanted to put nukes there. That's seriously why Turkey is in Nato.

Quote from: daidalos on December 05, 2015, 04:02:24 PM
Since Turkey was able to sell it's self as being a buffer against Russia, or rather the old Soviet Union for European nations, and we wanted to put nukes there. That's seriously why Turkey is in Nato.

Turkey was afraid that Stalin (or his inheritors) would gobble up (pun intended) vast portions of its country up when they did the annexation thing with something like 30% or Iran.

Quote from: Walter Josh on December 05, 2015, 01:25:45 PM
Kroz, I used cities since my analogy was geographic. Otherwise my core point had nothing to do w/any city, Indonesian or otherwise. Rather it was direct and simple, namely, that Islam is more intolerant and repressive the closer one gets to their holy sites and the reverse, the further away one gets.
This is hardly an original observation from me, being written about by ranking Arabists such as David Pryce-Jones as well as Bernard Lewis.

So, did David Pryce-Jones say that internationals were flocking to these cities and frolicking on the beaches in bikinis?  That is what you were implying.

Other than the fact that Saudi is the hub of the islamic religion and has the strictest enforcement of Sharia, your geographical argument is of inconsequential value.  Islam is a harsh taskmaster for those who choose it whether they are in Jordan or Indonesia.  The ruling class of each Country determines how and when sharia is applied.  With each succeeding ruler it can and usually does change one way or the other.  It depends on how "devout" the ruling class is.  However, islamic nations are never a truly peaceful place for non muslims.

Quote from: Billy's bayonet on December 05, 2015, 03:53:23 PM

There were about five insurgent groups operating in Indonesia when I arrived in E Timor, among them were the rebels in Aceh who were pretty much shooting up everything that moved, the good point, usually rival clans or groups, so they kept it in house....good.

The worse bunch were headed by Abu Bakar Bashir, of Saudi decent who was the "spiritual" leader (Ie head warlord) of the Indonesian Islamic terrorist group Jamayah Islamiyah. Around the end of 1999 (While I was still in tenure) there were a series of attacks in both Jakarta and Yogyakarta, targeting the places that foreigners frequent from bars to disco' etc. Then some idiot set off a Bomb in the Marriot in Jakarta which house an extension office of the US Embassy.

We had to deal with these scumbags infiltrating the Island and messing with the vote and attacking Christian businesses, several full scale riots, burnings, beatings, murders and the usual Muslim mayhem. Almost as bad as a payday night in Southeast DC. This os the infiltration and attrition strategy at work I talked about earlier in this thread.

P.O'd he lost in E, Timor,Bashir stated that he wanted to institute Sharia law, outlaw, liquor, go go bars, bikini's on the beach and in general, fun. To prove his point he Blew up Bali. Which he called an Island of Whores. Since most of his lackeys aren't very smart to begin with he got connected to the one who set off the car bomb and got his ass jailed.

The Saudi's export their own brand of Muslim Terrorism and control to these Islands, especially the Philippines and Southern Thailand called Wahabi or Wahabbism. They recruit these back water types, send them to Muslim countries such a Egypt and Pakistan to the most extreme Madrassas and teach them Arabic and graduate them as Q'uanic scholars
Then they send them back into their native countries to unleash hell. Most of the financing that the Islamic movements(MILF) and Autonomous regions (See ARMM, Muslim Mindanao) are thru these now trusted Clerics....he who controls the money controls everything.

That is how Saudi extends it's tentacles of Radical Islam to the far flung regions of the world Working almost EXCLUSIVELY thru various clerics

Next, those fun Fellows of the Southern Philippines, Atonymous Region of Muslim Mindanao, Eid Kabalau and Nour Misuari and their deadly organizations and terrorist cells Or Piracy,  Kidnapping, Murder & rape for fun and profit.

I understand your historic picture of the violence in Indonesia.  Those Aceh folks are very violent people!  They dominate north Sumatra. 

I was still there when they bombed Bali but I left before the bomb at the Jakarta Marriott.   I left in May 1998 which was soon after the fall of Suharto.  Melee was reigning in Jakarta and military tanks were in the streets.  It was eerie.  I did get caught in one situation where the military was firing rounds of small ammo at a group of rioters.  I happened to be on the lawn of the Hilton Hotel at the time and could actually hear the bullets whizzing past me.  The security guards immediately got me inside of the hotel.  I wasn't in real danger but I was that close to the violence.

The Saudi's infiltrated Java in the early 90s and rounded up bus loads of young foolish Indonesia kids and took them somewhere for training.  I never knew where.  It was a sign of things yet to come.  The Indonesians tend to be very emotional people anyway.... easily swayed.  They are also very involved in shaman spiritualism.... very superstitious.  They love to be part of a group, any group.  On Saturday mornings they got out in the street and marched in large groups.  I never really understood.  They just loved to march and follow a leader!  They would start at the crack of dawn and wake me up every Saturday. 

Quote from: kroz on December 05, 2015, 04:39:21 PM

The Saudi's infiltrated Java in the early 90s and rounded up bus loads of young foolish Indonesia kids and took them somewhere for training.  I never knew where.  It was a sign of things yet to come.  The Indonesians tend to be very emotional people anyway.... easily swayed.  They are also very involved in shaman spiritualism.... very superstitious.  They love to be part of a group, any group.  On Saturday mornings they got out in the street and marched in large groups.  I never really understood.  They just loved to march and follow a leader!  They would start at the crack of dawn and wake me up every Saturday. 

This and your previous post about the inconsequentiality of "distance" vs western behavior  is the point I was trying to make, my entire 12 years spent in that region of Asia saw ever increasing measures towards the Saudi ideal with women forced into full Pra'ad,backlash against the establishments serving liquor and punishment directed at those straying from Islamic mores. Given their way the Clerics institute little Mini Saudia Arabia's" in their respective venue.

You are correct about shamanism, native superstitions all over the Archipeligo, but Thai's & Malay too.... Filipino's even worse. Ghosts, witches with no lower body, shape shifting creatures, giants who smoke banana tree cigars, sea monsters, death tree's, enchanted rocks and talking volcanos....

Ok Kroz, it's apparent that you have to be right and have the last word, always; so you're welcome. In closing, Pryce-Jones, Lewis and Huntington, world ranking Arabists all, come to mind. I reflect and realize that if they only had your worldly experiences, your anecdotes and your tales filled w/such trauma; like escaping after midnight, like being awakened at dawn by violent demonstrators, like hearing rounds of small arms bullets whizzing past, like observing murder on the streets!!! Oh my God, it's hard to grasp how one emotionally survives such ordeals. The horror, the pity, the shame. Hillary would be envious.
If these Arabists had experienced such stuff, I realize how much more  pregnant w/meaning and nuance their scholarly writing would have been. What a missed opportunity!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the record, I don't imply, I write English plain enough for 3rd graders.
But stay pure and pretentious; as it obviously makes life easier to bear.

For my own part I don't want them here. They are not refugees, they are economic migrants seeking an easy life on the dole in the countries they are fleeing to, with the ultimate goal of turning those countries into the same sorts of filthy pits and failed states they are now fleeing. It's far from lost on me that the countries they are fleeing refuse to take them back. It's the new Mariel Boatlift. Islamic countries spewing their refuse onto our shores as Castro did. Refuse and trash is all Islam produces.

All of the Muslim countries in the world have a GDP less than that of Italy, because of Islam. And now that cultural and ideological cancer is metastasizing into the rest of the world. Muslim immigrants are like viruses, infecting new cells (neighborhoods in our country and others) until they burst open, releasing new viruses to infect the rest of the body/nation. Islam is the chief evil in our world, the enemy, and it is Satan operating right out in the open for all to see. That his agent is our president and his minions infect our country at the highest levels is obvious. What shall we do about it?

To Kroz.
I've re-read my posts to you and after reflecting a few days,
I realize that some were ill tempered and unnecessary.
As such, I apologize.
WJ

Quote from: Walter Josh on December 07, 2015, 01:30:31 PM
To Kroz.
I've re-read my posts to you and after reflecting a few days,
I realize that some were ill tempered and unnecessary.
As such, I apologize.
WJ

Thank you, wj.  I'm really not that bad of a person. 

I do not normally react as I did with you.  Your posts seemed extremely arrogant and pretentious to me.  I apologize also.

We will start over.   

I said it once and I will say it again, there is no Syrian situation, only a Muslim one.

Quote from: kroz on December 07, 2015, 04:51:59 PM
Thank you, wj.  I'm really not that bad of a person. 

I do not normally react as I did with you.  Your posts seemed extremely arrogant and pretentious to me.  I apologize also.

We will start over.   

I hope you all will start over as I like both of you.  Kroz with your obvious world experience and Walter with a certain knowledge-humorously put most of the time(reminds me of a British story teller and I love the dry humor) both have a load of stuff worth sharing.   

Quote from: Dori on November 26, 2015, 09:19:10 AM
Obama says the Syrian refugees are like the Pilgrims of the Mayflower



Liberal equivalency. 

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/261368-obama-syrian-refugees-are-like-pilgrims-on-the-mayflower

Except the Pilgrims, unlike Syrian Mudslimes, didn't wear suicide vests, turn their heads to committing pedophilia, kill their spouses if they didn't follow their master's orders, cover their faces in public, etc... or wipe themselves with their right hand after #2.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/12/8/syrian-refugees-resettled-in-texas-indiana.html

Typical liberal stupidity.