As far as Syrian refugees go, I believe the new house bill was needed. Democrats argue that many republican candidates such as Rubio are not wanting to help refugees when they say we should not let them in the country without better security measures. What I believe is that the solution to these refugees problems is not leaving Syria for the United States, I believe the solution is the U.S.A. Creating and leading a strong cooallition to combat ISIS through airstrikes, combatting Russia's at best mediocre bombing campaign that is not destroying ISIS but actually defending the Assad regime, and after ISIS is destroyed and Russia's support of Assad is put to rest, we let democracy decide who leads Syria and get Assad out of there. When this started, with Assad wrongly treating certain groups of Syrian Muslims different than his religion, Assad's government(and the rebel groups) were the ones who were killing civilians, so Assad, ISIS, and Russia/Iran/Hezbollah presences in Russia need to go. Some ways to combat Russia are no fly zones(especially around Turkey) and aiding the Rebels that are combatting ISIS but Putin wants to destroy because they are going against his beloved Assad.
The problem with the refugee issue is liberalism. That's it, libs see appeasement of radical Islum and the hopes of a new poverty voter class.
Conservatives recognize the problem for what it is, the M/E dictators refusing to help their own people.
I say screw that shit, seal the borders and pack their worthless asses back on ships and send them home.
Chrusty for POTUS, really? :biggrin:
Obama says the Syrian refugees are like the Pilgrims of the Mayflower
:mad:
Liberal equivalency.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/261368-obama-syrian-refugees-are-like-pilgrims-on-the-mayflower
Quote from: Dori on November 26, 2015, 09:19:10 AM
Obama says the Syrian refugees are like the Pilgrims of the Mayflower
:mad:
Liberal equivalency.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/261368-obama-syrian-refugees-are-like-pilgrims-on-the-mayflower
We know exactly what he meant by that. The US was founded by essentially offspring of the Mayflower pilgrims and settlers that follow.
He knows what happens when Muscum are offered a place to settle, Hell, look at Michigan and the problems they're having already.
Christie for pres???
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Liberals are hilarious.
Quote from: taxed on November 26, 2015, 12:36:30 PM
Christie for pres???
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Liberals are hilarious.
Ballsy or dumb, I'm not sure, but to come to a TEA forum and call yourself a RINO clone?
Priceless..... :lol:
Quote from: ChristieForPres on November 26, 2015, 09:06:54 AM
As far as Syrian refugees go, I believe the new house bill was needed. Democrats argue that many republican candidates such as Rubio are not wanting to help refugees when they say we should not let them in the country without better security measures. What I believe is that the solution to these refugees problems is not leaving Syria for the United States, I believe the solution is the U.S.A. Creating and leading a strong cooallition to combat ISIS through airstrikes, combatting Russia's at best mediocre bombing campaign that is not destroying ISIS but actually defending the Assad regime, and after ISIS is destroyed and Russia's support of Assad is put to rest, we let democracy decide who leads Syria and get Assad out of there. When this started, with Assad wrongly treating certain groups of Syrian Muslims different than his religion, Assad's government(and the rebel groups) were the ones who were killing civilians, so Assad, ISIS, and Russia/Iran/Hezbollah presences in Russia need to go. Some ways to combat Russia are no fly zones(especially around Turkey) and aiding the Rebels that are combatting ISIS but Putin wants to destroy because they are going against his beloved Assad.
First, read our Constitution sometime. Our government is created by, and for the American citizen. It's first responsibility is to them, not to Europe, not to muzscum's, not to Syrian's. Second, this nation is very literally the property of the Citizen's of the United States. As such American's are perfectly within their God given rights to say "no you can't come into our nation". No matter what the reason for saying "no" may be.
Quote from: Dori on November 26, 2015, 09:19:10 AM
Obama says the Syrian refugees are like the Pilgrims of the Mayflower
Liberal equivalency.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/261368-obama-syrian-refugees-are-like-pilgrims-on-the-mayflower
Only the Christian ones are.
There is no Syrian problem.
There is only a leftist agenda problem in the United States and Europe.
The Syrian refugees want to leave their homeland for the same reason the Mexicans do and the East Europeans did decades ago. The root of all immigration is economic as there is no opportunity for them and their children in their country of birth, as their leaders ignore them; happy to see their backsides.
The Syrians are Muslims and in Arabic, the word Islam translates as submission (to the will of Allah). As such, Free Will is not part of their psyche. So they have been abused and ignored for many hundreds of years because they have tolerated/submitted to their conditions in the name of religion. When they find a way to break away from this tyranny of the mind, they will get transformational change. Otherwise nothing will change and the USA attempting to ride to the rescue, is a fool's errand akin to Bush's promise to "bring democracy to the Arabs." Their fate is theirs.
Quote from: Walter Josh on November 28, 2015, 10:12:27 AM
The Syrian refugees want to leave their homeland for the same reason the Mexicans do and the East Europeans did decades ago. The root of all immigration is economic as there is no opportunity for them and their children in their country of birth,
EEEEEHHHHHHHTTTTTTT Wrong!
THEY ARE LEAVING THEIR 'HOMELAND' AS PART OF A NEW STRATEGY OF WARFARE.
One that was used
most effectively down through history by the Celts,the Vikings, the Romans and the Mongols.
The Middle east demons realize they cannot conquer the west and Bring The World Islam with the gun. So they figured out if they use their penises they can take over the west in less than a generation.
Most of these 'refugee's" are male, up to 70% some times more like 77%, mostly strong, virile young men, very few old men, relatively few women and children....oh a few for show, and granted, some may be legitimate refugee's, but the vast majority are these young men who are being implanted into Europe with the expressed purpose of breeding their way to an Islamic Europe. This is why the rise in rape (a form of conquest), besides if you listen to the clerics they will tell you this is what they are trying to achieve. Go to Europe, breed their women, take 4 wives as allowed by the Holy Q'uan and have many children by each.
And they are being funded, most of these people are passing thru Turkey, some are showing up in south America and on our Southern Border with phony passports, showing passage through many different countries. That takes FUNDING and ORGANIZATION, doubtful some poor refugee fleeing with everything on their back would be able to organize or pay for.
Understand your enemy before repeating some leftist mitigating nonsense.
Quote from: Billy's bayonet on November 28, 2015, 04:37:50 PMTHEY ARE LEAVING THEIR 'HOMELAND' AS PART OF A NEW STRATEGY OF WARFARE.
Understand your enemy before repeating some leftist mitigating nonsense.
Maybe he should watch this video. Maybe it will open his eyes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoZwIDlIL5Q
New Strategy of warfare??? Wow, who knew.
Neither the Celts nor the Vikings left France and Scandinavia respectively, as they're still there; but large numbers of them did sail abroad for economic reasons (trade opportunities). The Romans went north to secure their borders against hostile Germanic tribes and the Mongols ventured west because the Asiatic plains were not fertile enough to support their expanding peoples. The movement of large groups over great distances is always, "ALWAYS" a function of economics, as Adam Smith, an original mind, cogently pointed out.
Much of talk radio and tv is ignorant blather directed at those small minds already made up, by information long on bs and short on any historical accuracy.
My original comment, about the Syrians, derives from 18 years as a petrochemical engineers working w/the Arabs, their language and their culture; rather than the latest malarkey hyped on idiot tv such as FOX.
Try opening your brain.
Quote from: Billy's bayonet on November 28, 2015, 04:37:50 PM
EEEEEHHHHHHHTTTTTTT Wrong!
THEY ARE LEAVING THEIR 'HOMELAND' AS PART OF A NEW STRATEGY OF WARFARE.
One that was used most effectively down through history by the Celts,the Vikings, the Romans and the Mongols.
The Middle east demons realize they cannot conquer the west and Bring The World Islam with the gun. So they figured out if they use their penises they can take over the west in less than a generation.
Most of these 'refugee's" are male, up to 70% some times more like 77%, mostly strong, virile young men, very few old men, relatively few women and children....oh a few for show, and granted, some may be legitimate refugee's, but the vast majority are these young men who are being implanted into Europe with the expressed purpose of breeding their way to an Islamic Europe. This is why the rise in rape (a form of conquest), besides if you listen to the clerics they will tell you this is what they are trying to achieve. Go to Europe, breed their women, take 4 wives as allowed by the Holy Q'uan and have many children by each.
And they are being funded, most of these people are passing thru Turkey, some are showing up in south America and on our Southern Border with phony passports, showing passage through many different countries. That takes FUNDING and ORGANIZATION, doubtful some poor refugee fleeing with everything on their back would be able to organize or pay for.
Understand your enemy before repeating some leftist mitigating nonsense.
You are right and here's a Kewpie doll for you
Quote from: Walter Josh on November 28, 2015, 09:50:29 PM
New Strategy of warfare??? Wow, who knew.
The movement of large groups over great distances is always, "ALWAYS" a function of economics, as Adam Smith, an original mind, cogently pointed out.
Try opening your brain.
Did you even watch the video I posted?
Quote from: ChristieForPres on November 26, 2015, 09:06:54 AM
As far as Syrian refugees go, I believe the new house bill was needed. Democrats argue that many republican candidates such as Rubio are not wanting to help refugees when they say we should not let them in the country without better security measures. What I believe is that the solution to these refugees problems is not leaving Syria for the United States, I believe the solution is the U.S.A. Creating and leading a strong cooallition to combat ISIS through airstrikes, combatting Russia's at best mediocre bombing campaign that is not destroying ISIS but actually defending the Assad regime, and after ISIS is destroyed and Russia's support of Assad is put to rest, we let democracy decide who leads Syria and get Assad out of there. When this started, with Assad wrongly treating certain groups of Syrian Muslims different than his religion, Assad's government(and the rebel groups) were the ones who were killing civilians, so Assad, ISIS, and Russia/Iran/Hezbollah presences in Russia need to go. Some ways to combat Russia are no fly zones(especially around Turkey) and aiding the Rebels that are combatting ISIS but Putin wants to destroy because they are going against his beloved Assad.
Hmm.... looks like this was just cut-n-pasted from somewhere, like a political ad.
Noticed you haven't replied or added anything to your original post... kinda like a Troll.
Quote from: Hoofer on November 29, 2015, 07:20:06 AM
Hmm.... looks like this was just cut-n-pasted from somewhere, like a political ad.
Noticed you haven't replied or added anything to your original post... kinda like a Troll.
Actually Solar told me to start replying to other posts so I'm focusing on that and getting a feel for the forums.
Quote from: Walter Josh on November 28, 2015, 10:12:27 AM
The Syrian refugees want to leave their homeland for the same reason the Mexicans do and the East Europeans did decades ago. The root of all immigration is economic as there is no opportunity for them and their children in their country of birth, as their leaders ignore them; happy to see their backsides.
ISIS threatens to send 500,000 migrants to Europe as a 'psychological weapon'
(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2958517/The-Mediterranean-sea-chaos-Gaddafi-s-chilling-prophecy-interview-ISIS-threatens-send-500-000-migrants-Europe-psychological-weapon-bombed.html#ixzz3suIwbu43)The "Settlement Plan" for North America
"The process of settlement is a 'Civilization-Jihadist Process' with all the word means. The Ikhwan [Muslim Brotherhood] must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and 'sabotaging' its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers..."
https://whatyouthoughtiwentaway.wordpress.com/2015/10/01/the-muslim-brotherhoods-strategic-plan-for-america-court-document/
Dori, w/respect.
I accept that the idea of conquest, the Caliphate and Sharia Law inflames the mind of the jihadi. Yet the catalyst for mass migration, the Irish in the 19th century, the Mongols in the 16th century and so on, is rooted in economics. We can expect much more of this from the middle east until these people are able, if ever, to break free of the chains Islam imposes upon them.
Quote from: Walter Josh on November 29, 2015, 11:20:39 AM
Dori, w/respect.
I accept that the idea of conquest, the Caliphate and Sharia Law inflames the mind of the jihadi. Yet the catalyst for mass migration, the Irish in the 19th century, the Mongols in the 16th century and so on, is rooted in economics. We can expect much more of this from the middle east until these people are able, if ever, to break free of the chains Islam imposes upon them.
Having lived in islamic countries much of my adult life and traveled extensively in most of the others, I can say with certainty that most muslims do not see themselves as economically deprived. Their women are dripping in gold (22 carat) jewelry and living well. Of course all Countries have a segment of "poor" but the muslims countries are not disproportionately poor.
Do they live as opulently as we do? No. But neither does Europe, Asia or Australia.
Economics IMHO is not the driving force behind immigration from the ME. Right now it is a combination of political instability, dangers of war and ISIS, and a stealth attempt at an islamic caliphate by some.
Most of these "immigrants" are not interested in the European refugee camps. They are looking for the nearest ATMs. For the most part they are not "poor" people. They are displaced people and jihadists.
Ben Carson says the Syrian refugees he met during his trip to the Middle East don't want to come to the United States — they want to go home.
https://www.yahoo.com/politics/ben-carson-syrian-refugee-trip-202955293.html
This article supports my position that these people are NOT economic refugees.
Quote from: Walter Josh on November 28, 2015, 09:50:29 PM
Much of talk radio and tv is ignorant blather directed at those small minds already made up, by information long on bs and short on any historical accuracy.
My original comment, about the Syrians, derives from 18 years as a petrochemical engineers working w/the Arabs, their language and their culture; rather than the latest malarkey hyped on idiot tv such as FOX.
Try opening your brain.
OHHHHH DO FORGIVE ME I'm sure those 18 years working as a petrochemical engineer among Arabs and soaking up their culture, language etc has just made you an absolute authority on such matters and we need look no further. Certainly not to those idiot TV talking heads who only have the finest military, Govt, private industry intelligence analysts from a dozen or so countries to count on as resources for their talking points. I'm sure a petrochemical engineer surpasses all that.
Personally, I don't rely on what I see on TV and certainly not the desk jockeys on Talk radio, much of my basis of opinion for my aforementioned post concerning conquest by
intermarriage, infiltration & overwhelming numbers/attrition is the result of tenure as a private security contractor in Places like East Timor, the Philippines, Indonesia and a few other Asian countries. I saw such strategy in play up close and
bloody personally. The greatest conflict seems to be where Islam is the minority and Christianity is the majority and the Muzzies, or Moro, are desperate to even the playing field, the exception being Thailand where the conflict is with the Buddhist, yet very Nationalistic,Thai's.
And may I say that you are among the very slim hand full of expats I have ever heard expressing admiration for "Arab" culture etc, assuming you were actually in "Arab" Countries (whatever the hell Arab countries might mean), my fourth month tenure in Kuwait, UAE and Saudi was the most miserable time I spent as an expat and most others, from various countries would agree on how bad the place sucks, the food is awful, the climate terrible and the people are worse.
But since you seem to be so enamored of them I suggest you go back to whatever "Arab' country you found so pleasant and stay there, and while you at it tell the SOB's to stay the hell out of our country.
Kroz, then we have mega difference of opinion based on our observations of life there.
1. The wealth effect in the ME is a function of an accident of geography as well as geology, viz; the presence of oil and gas, which does not exist uniformly in either quantity or quality, per country.
2. Nations w/a higher proportion of Shia are poorer than their Sunni neighbors
3, The same is true of nations w/a higher proportion of Bedouins.
4. Most critically, wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few connected to or part of the ruling class.
I assert that the women you have seen in the gold souks are singular exceptions rather than the rule.
And as well meaning as your opinions likely are, Adam Smith has history and economics on his side.
-------------------------------------
Bayonet, I do not pretend to be an expert on ME culture nor did I express either admiration for Arab culture nor am I enamored of it. My core point was that Islam requires submission which traps the Arab in a cycle that breeds violence. You would have known that if you had read and reflected on my initial post rather than reacting w/uninformed and visceral hostility. For your information, Arab countries are those where Arabic is the major language and Islam dominates the culture.
I'm uninterested in engaging in a dead end urinary contest w/someone as closed minded as you, so we'll end it here. Let me suggest that the next time you see one of my posts, hurry past it, as you'll quickly feel much better.
Quote from: Walter Josh on November 29, 2015, 05:57:18 PM
Kroz, then we have mega difference of opinion based on our observations of life there.
1. The wealth effect in the ME is a function of an accident of geography as well as geology, viz; the presence of oil and gas, which does not exist uniformly in either quantity or quality, per country.
2. Nations w/a higher proportion of Shia are poorer than their Sunni neighbors
3, The same is true of nations w/a higher proportion of Bedouins.
4. Most critically, wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few connected to or part of the ruling class.
I assert that the women you have seen in the gold souks are singular exceptions rather than the rule.
And as well meaning as your opinions likely are, Adam Smith has history and economics on his side.
-------------------------------------
Bayonet, I do not pretend to be an expert on ME culture nor did I express either admiration for Arab culture nor am I enamored of it. My core point was that Islam requires submission which traps the Arab in a cycle that breeds violence. You would have known that if you had read and reflected on my initial post rather than reacting w/uninformed and visceral hostility. For your information, Arab countries are those where Arabic is the major language and Islam dominates the culture.
I'm uninterested in engaging in a dead end urinary contest w/someone as closed minded as you, so we'll end it here. Let me suggest that the next time you see one of my posts, hurry past it, as you'll quickly feel much better.
Translation: Do not conjecture me coz I am the know all be all authority on things 'Arab' and Muslim.
And please don't give a sermon on your all too subjective 'Arab countries' narrative, digressive from the point anyhow.
Perhaps if you would have been more forthcoming & named what "Arab" country you imply you had tenure in where you absorbed the culture and language you might have more credibility. Then we might determine what nexus it might have with the current Syrian crisis and your qualification to pass judgement & Lecture us lesser mortals with your vastly superior intellect.
But Right now you are still failing.
Quote from: Solar on November 26, 2015, 09:25:52 AM
We know exactly what he meant by that. The US was founded by essentially offspring of the Mayflower pilgrims and settlers that follow.
He knows what happens when Muscum are offered a place to settle, Hell, look at Michigan and the problems they're having already.
I think we can safely trashcan anything that spews outta' Bozo's mouth. We can believe just the opposite of what he says and be on the right side of any issue.
Quote from: keyboarder on November 29, 2015, 06:38:56 PM
I think we can safely trashcan anything that spews outta' Bozo's mouth. We can believe just the opposite of what he says and be on the right side of any issue.
True that...
Quote from: keyboarder on November 29, 2015, 06:38:56 PM
I think we can safely trashcan anything that spews outta' Bozo's mouth. We can believe just the opposite of what he says and be on the right side of any issue.
Well said. Believe nothing he says, but watch what he does. Makes one wonder how Josh Ernest can even look in the mirror.
Quote from: taxed on November 26, 2015, 12:36:30 PM
Christie for pres???
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Liberals are hilarious.
Or mentally ill. :biggrin:
Working somewhere in the Middle East in the petrochemical industry for 18 years, might make one an expert on petrochemicals, but the little foreign enclaves give one scant opportunity to know much about the country or the culture. I guess the Arab oil barons' wives (And I mean plural) do sport gold jewelry (I think it's mostly 18K actually because I, myself, have some) but the hordes of barbarians I see pictured invading Europe don't look especially prosperous or civilized or female. This is not an economic phenomenon, but a religious war with the goal of creating a worldwide Caliphate. The foolish Europeans are allowing this to happen to their own civilization, but I hope we here in the US can somehow put a stop to our government's destruction of our country and culture. These people do not assimilate nor do they know how to live peaceably. They are barbarians who think little of human life's value and are willing and indeed eager to kill for Allah. That is who is coming. We have no need to hold Job Fairs for them.
Quote from: Charliemyboy on November 30, 2015, 02:45:53 PM
Working somewhere in the Middle East in the petrochemical industry for 18 years, might make one an expert on petrochemicals, but the little foreign enclaves give one scant opportunity to know much about the country or the culture. I guess the Arab oil barons' wives (And I mean plural) do sport gold jewelry (I think it's mostly 18K actually because I, myself, have some) but the hordes of barbarians I see pictured invading Europe don't look especially prosperous or civilized or female. This is not an economic phenomenon, but a religious war with the goal of creating a worldwide Caliphate. The foolish Europeans are allowing this to happen to their own civilization, but I hope we here in the US can somehow put a stop to our government's destruction of our country and culture. These people do not assimilate nor do they know how to live peaceably. They are barbarians who think little of human life's value and are willing and indeed eager to kill for Allah. That is who is coming. We have no need to hold Job Fairs for them.
You have addressed comments in your post from different people.
I will comment on the portion that involved me. I purchased 22 1/2 carat gold in Saudi frequently. They do have 18 carat but the locals preferred the 22 1/2 carat.
I saw many Bedouin women wearing unbelievable amounts of gold. Their husband's wealth was in his wife's gold jewelry. It was the only thing of value to buy in Saudi back in the 70s. That was their bank account... gold jewelry.
One day we drove through what appeared to be a remote Bedouin enclave that was full of squalor and filth. Goats running around everywhere, tents and camels. Veiled women were walking around but you could see their gold bangles and necklaces.... not chains but heavy gaudy necklaces.
I also lived in Indonesia for many years and they actually had more poor people than the middle eastern countries. Poverty was a problem but during the 80s and 90s there was an emerging middle class with far less poverty.
I have traveled in many of the muslim countries. I really have a good understanding of the culture. My husband's sister's family lived many years in Jordan and we visited them. I've been to Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey, Egypt, India, Nepal, Malaysia, and others. This gave me a cross section of various cultures, both Shia and Shiite.
I am not an authority but I sure have a lot of cumulative knowledge of islam.
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.realclearpolitics.com%2Fcartoons%2Fimages%2F2015%2F11%2F25%2Fmichael_ramirez_michael_ramirez_for_11252015_5_.jpg&hash=b5644819ace04eddc358b82e305c3741789e81b8)
Quote from: kroz on November 30, 2015, 03:25:08 PM
I have traveled in many of the muslim countries. I really have a good understanding of the culture. My husband's sister's family lived many years in Jordan and we visited them. I've been to Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey, Egypt, India, Nepal, Malaysia, and others. This gave me a cross section of various cultures, both Shia and Shiite.
I am not an authority but I sure have a lot of cumulative knowledge of islam.
Oh I bet you do indeed......
Quote from: kroz on November 30, 2015, 03:25:08 PM
You have addressed comments in your post from different people.
I will comment on the portion that involved me. I purchased 22 1/2 carat gold in Saudi frequently. They do have 18 carat but the locals preferred the 22 1/2 carat.
I saw many Bedouin women wearing unbelievable amounts of gold. Their husband's wealth was in his wife's gold jewelry. It was the only thing of value to buy in Saudi back in the 70s. That was their bank account... gold jewelry.
One day we drove through what appeared to be a remote Bedouin enclave that was full of squalor and filth. Goats running around everywhere, tents and camels. Veiled women were walking around but you could see their gold bangles and necklaces.... not chains but heavy gaudy necklaces.
I also lived in Indonesia for many years and they actually had more poor people than the middle eastern countries. Poverty was a problem but during the 80s and 90s there was an emerging middle class with far less poverty.
I have traveled in many of the muslim countries. I really have a good understanding of the culture. My husband's sister's family lived many years in Jordan and we visited them. I've been to Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey, Egypt, India, Nepal, Malaysia, and others. This gave me a cross section of various cultures, both Shia and Shiite.
I am not an authority but I sure have a lot of cumulative knowledge of islam.
Interesting....
My brother has flown for UAE about 20 years. I've heard the women will strip off the 'arab garb' and put on completely westernized clothing the moment the airplane crosses international boundries, and vice versa upon returning. From some of the stories, I've wondered if the impression we may have in the USA is generally incorrect - many muslins act like muslins because it's the state religion, and the religious ones are rather few. Or, the dedicated
religious sector is actually quite few.
I also heard similar stories of
wearing their wealth in gold, and it's like a very wealthy welfare state - nobody works, or has any skills, they hire out EVERYTHING to outsiders. Of course that is a generalization, like comparing the inside-the-beltway crowd to normal Americans....
Here in the USA, we carry our debt in credit cards... LOL.
Quote from: Hoofer on December 02, 2015, 12:08:08 AM
Interesting....
My brother has flown for UAE about 20 years. I've heard the women will strip off the 'arab garb' and put on completely westernized clothing the moment the airplane crosses international boundries, and vice versa upon returning. From some of the stories, I've wondered if the impression we may have in the USA is generally incorrect - many muslins act like muslins because it's the state religion, and the religious ones are rather few. Or, the dedicated religious sector is actually quite few.
I also heard similar stories of wearing their wealth in gold, and it's like a very wealthy welfare state - nobody works, or has any skills, they hire out EVERYTHING to outsiders. Of course that is a generalization, like comparing the inside-the-beltway crowd to normal Americans....
Here in the USA, we carry our debt in credit cards... LOL.
Yes, your brother has undoubtedly told you accurate stories. It is true that many of the women shed the burka when they were in western countries. And as you land in an arab nation like Saudi they will start digging in their carry-on bags for their burkas. For many there is no evidence of their muslim faith when they are in the West. They look like regular people.
Yes, islam is a cultural tradition for many if not most of them. It is ritual and a form of discipline. Actually it is the law of the land in Saudi. No one questions it. Without islam the government would have no hold over the people. The jihadists fight for it like we fight for our own government. Farrakhan was right when he said "The Nation of Islam". It is a form of governance. Sharia is the law part of the system. It is a faux theocracy. I say faux because it is such a lie. Mohammed was the antithesis of Jesus Christ.
No Arab ever works HARD by our standards. It is just not in their DNA. It takes 300 arab men to equal the work of one American woman.
Back in the 70s Saudi had full employment and imported massive numbers of foreigners. White collar jobs were done by Americans and Europeans. Blue collar jobs by Pakistani and Philippinos. Street sweepers and trash collectors were Yemeni.
Islam is a harsh taskmaster. It is ridged and relentless. There is no place for mercy or grace. Punishments are swift and certain. Floggings and other punishments are always public to make an example of wrongdoing. The first weekend I lived there they beheaded nine Yemeni and Pakistani men outside of my compound gates. They had abducted, ravaged and killed a young Saudi boy. Their execution was three days after the incident.
They even made sure that all expats were dressed appropriately modest...covered from neck to ankles and pants for women only under a very long top covering the rump. If not in compliance you could be doused with battery acid or something equally unpleasant by a local. Men were forced to keep their hair short. The locals would cut your hair on the street if it was deemed to be too long.
Westerners do not have a clue how oppressive islam is. It requires adherents to make a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once during their lives. Poor people from distant muslim nations would drive there and sell old carpets along the way to finance their trip. I bought a few of those small rugs. It was a big sacrifice on their part to make this non-vacation pilgrimage. Their old vehicles would break down along the way and they were at the mercy of locals to help them. As previously noted, mercy was scarce.
Quote from: Hoofer on December 02, 2015, 12:08:08 AM
Interesting....
My brother has flown for UAE about 20 years. I've heard the women will strip off the 'arab garb' and put on completely westernized clothing the moment the airplane crosses international boundries, and vice versa upon returning. From some of the stories, I've wondered if the impression we may have in the USA is generally incorrect - many muslins act like muslins because it's the state religion, and the religious ones are rather few. Or, the dedicated religious sector is actually quite few.
I also heard similar stories of wearing their wealth in gold, and it's like a very wealthy welfare state - nobody works, or has any skills, they hire out EVERYTHING to outsiders. Of course that is a generalization, like comparing the inside-the-beltway crowd to normal Americans....
Here in the USA, we carry our debt in credit cards... LOL.
:thumbsup:
Excellent point!!! I was listening to a few neighbors discussing finance while helping my friend on a project.
One said she was so happy because the credit card company increased her limit because she has such good credit, while the other, not to be out done, claimed credit score was by far more important, and boasted her number.
My friend and I chuckled at how ludicrous the thought of being in debt was, when we heard the third woman ask "Why not just pay cash for what you need"? :woot:
All kinds of excuses ensued, from you need credit to exist, to, a card is so much safer than cash.
She smiled and said I cut all my cards up and have zero debt. The other two shut up.
Funny how well trained we Americans are, that being in debt like our govt, is considered status?
Erdogan said that he will resign if it will be proved, that Turkey illegally import oil stolen from Syria by ISIS. Right now russian Ministry of defence havin briffing with press (over 300 journalists present, I cross my fingers, that some of them from US) with proofs of this criminal nactivity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwKHtF8LXVY
I don't think Erdogan will resign, Koran said it is O.K. to lie to infidels.
Nobel Laureate Kipling who worked for the British Colonial Office while in India, then under local Muslims rule, understood Islam for what it always was.
*It is a cult demanding submission (the meaning of the word Islam) and which is viscerally hostile to and contemptuous of non-Islamic values.
*As a result, submission generates passivity in their people.
*Additionally, since submission (to the will of Allah) negates Free Will; attributes such as choice, creativity, individualism and the like, are virtually extinct in Muslim nations.
*Since there is no outlet for these normal human traits, change is resisted and stifled.
*Consequently, any effort to effect change necessitates violence.
One caveat. The Muslim world stretches from Morocco in westernmost Africa to Indonesia and the Philippines in easternmost Asia. The further one gets from Mecca and Media, in all directions, the far weaker the power of the Mullahs and the grip of Islam on the psyche of its followers. As such, demolishing those shrines might be a good starting point in effecting transformational change.
Quote from: kalash on December 02, 2015, 08:00:19 AM
russian Ministry of defence havin briffing with press with proofs of this criminal nactivity.
СNN repors
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/02/europe/syria-turkey-russia-warplane-tensions/index.html
Quote from: kroz on December 02, 2015, 05:11:50 AM
Yes, your brother has undoubtedly told you accurate stories. It is true that many of the women shed the burka when they were in western countries. And as you land in an arab nation like Saudi they will start digging in their carry-on bags for their burkas. For many there is no evidence of their muslim faith when they are in the West. They look like regular people.
As he announced they were leaving Saudi, (or whatever national airspace), he said the women would jump out of their seats, strip nearly naked in the aisles and don blue jeans, halter tops like they were headed to a Rodeo! He described it as a women's locker room.
QuoteYes, islam is a cultural tradition for many if not most of them. It is ritual and a form of discipline. Actually it is the law of the land in Saudi. No one questions it. Without islam the government would have no hold over the people. The jihadists fight for it like we fight for our own government. Farrakhan was right when he said "The Nation of Islam". It is a form of governance. Sharia is the law part of the system. It is a faux theocracy. I say faux because it is such a lie. Mohammed was the antithesis of Jesus Christ.
He emailed us a couple of pictures of his wife, visiting from Kansas, being driven around by one of their sons. It looked like a pile of clothes in the passenger seat, with eyes...!
QuoteNo Arab ever works HARD by our standards. It is just not in their DNA. It takes 300 arab men to equal the work of one American woman.
Back in the 70s Saudi had full employment and imported massive numbers of foreigners. White collar jobs were done by Americans and Europeans. Blue collar jobs by Pakistani and Philippinos. Street sweepers and trash collectors were Yemeni.
Yup, there are only two kinds of foreigners, those working, and the few that vacation (at their own risk).
QuoteIslam is a harsh taskmaster. It is ridged and relentless. There is no place for mercy or grace. Punishments are swift and certain. Floggings and other punishments are always public to make an example of wrongdoing. The first weekend I lived there they beheaded nine Yemeni and Pakistani men outside of my compound gates. They had abducted, ravaged and killed a young Saudi boy. Their execution was three days after the incident.
Reminds me of the woman caught in adultery, the men brought her before Jesus, He scribbled on the ground... They had no mercy for her, for all we know, she may have been discovered while being raped - but, nevertheless, they wanted her punished -now- (not the man, just the woman)
QuoteThey even made sure that all expats were dressed appropriately modest...covered from neck to ankles and pants for women only under a very long top covering the rump. If not in compliance you could be doused with battery acid or something equally unpleasant by a local. Men were forced to keep their hair short. The locals would cut your hair on the street if it was deemed to be too long.
Westerners do not have a clue how oppressive islam is. It requires adherents to make a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once during their lives. Poor people from distant muslim nations would drive there and sell old carpets along the way to finance their trip. I bought a few of those small rugs. It was a big sacrifice on their part to make this non-vacation pilgrimage. Their old vehicles would break down along the way and they were at the mercy of locals to help them. As previously noted, mercy was scarce.
My brother would certainly confirm everything you said, and much, much more. All legalism, and no grace, but the worst kinds of vice!
Quote from: Walter Josh on November 28, 2015, 09:50:29 PM
New Strategy of warfare??? Wow, who knew.
Neither the Celts nor the Vikings left France and Scandinavia respectively, as they're still there; but large numbers of them did sail abroad for economic reasons (trade opportunities). The Romans went north to secure their borders against hostile Germanic tribes and the Mongols ventured west because the Asiatic plains were not fertile enough to support their expanding peoples. The movement of large groups over great distances is always, "ALWAYS" a function of economics, as Adam Smith, an original mind, cogently pointed out.
Much of talk radio and tv is ignorant blather directed at those small minds already made up, by information long on bs and short on any historical accuracy.
My original comment, about the Syrians, derives from 18 years as a petrochemical engineers working w/the Arabs, their language and their culture; rather than the latest malarkey hyped on idiot tv such as FOX.
Try opening your brain.
That is one hell if a strawman there, The Scandinavians emmigrated to the US for economic opportunities yes that is true, but the vast migrations of huns, mongols and vandals were not out of economic reasons, they were for warfare and not because they wanted to become farmers. And btw when the Vikings first reached the US to establish New farming communities they were brutally slaughtered by the native indians. It wasn't until the 19th Century Scandinavians emmigrated to the US and they ASSIMILATED to the point that today they can't even speak Norwegian except the word "ja" for yes and they have no idea what a fjøsnisse is.
But in any case what your argument? We should allow immigration because they are coming out of love like Jeb Bush argues? Seeking better lives? And if so then why are they chanting for the destruction of Europe?
Quote from: Walter Josh on December 02, 2015, 12:23:42 PM
One caveat. The Muslim world stretches from Morocco in westernmost Africa to Indonesia and the Philippines in easternmost Asia. The further one gets from Mecca and Media, in all directions, the far weaker the power of the Mullahs and the grip of Islam on the psyche of its followers. As such, demolishing those shrines might be a good starting point in effecting transformational change.
Wrong.
If anything the power of the clerics aligned with the ruling clans who control regional area's....thus the wealth and power...is just about absolute.
East Timor (now Timor Leste) is about as far away from Mecca and Medina as one can get, Parts of Indonesia and the Southern Philippines (Mindanao) where I worked are a little closer but the same thing applies. If anything the Clerics have the greatest control due to the fact that they are usually the ones to dispense food, clothing, sometime medical services to the masses through the Mosque's. Since these regions are under SHARIA law, that is the distinct venue of the learned Clerics, many of whom have been schooled in Saudi Arabia and speak, read and write Arabic....very important among people who are often illiterate or semi illiterate. double that or triple it for
leaders of Militant Islamic terrorist groups like Abu Bakar Bashir, (Jamayah Islamiyah) author of the assaults/riots in East timor and the Bali Bombing
One of the first things I learned after landing in East timor was from a (Christian) Filipino Anti Terrorist group Police officer was:
"
The Problem with the Moro (muslim people) is, that they do whatever the Imam's tell them".
In the following years, in the several different countries aforementioned I found this simple statement to be correct.
Quote from: Walter Josh on December 02, 2015, 12:23:42 PM
Nobel Laureate Kipling who worked for the British Colonial Office while in India, then under local Muslims rule, understood Islam for what it always was.
*It is a cult demanding submission (the meaning of the word Islam) and which is viscerally hostile to and contemptuous of non-Islamic values.
*As a result, submission generates passivity in their people.
*Additionally, since submission (to the will of Allah) negates Free Will; attributes such as choice, creativity, individualism and the like, are virtually extinct in Muslim nations.
*Since there is no outlet for these normal human traits, change is resisted and stifled.
*Consequently, any effort to effect change necessitates violence.
One caveat. The Muslim world stretches from Morocco in westernmost Africa to Indonesia and the Philippines in easternmost Asia. The further one gets from Mecca and Media, in all directions, the far weaker the power of the Mullahs and the grip of Islam on the psyche of its followers. As such, demolishing those shrines might be a good starting point in effecting transformational change.
Where have you been? Enjoyed this opinion. :smile:
Mountain, I never said nor do I advocate that we should allow immigration because they come here as an act of love. Nor do I embrace any views/values of a sanctimonious schmuck like Jeb Bush. You would have understood this had you read what I said rather than reacting to what you thought I may have meant.
Since this is a discussion form you're obviously entitled to your opinion about the cause of mass migration but I'll stick w/Adam Smith. By the way, the Vandals were a Germanic Tribe, not Asiatic.
BB, you obviously couldn't resist, so it's another round I suppose. Lord have mercy!
For starters, this is a discussion forum where opinions are encouraged be they mis-guided, accepted or rejected; they are NOT wrong, despite your opening assertion; they are opinions!!!
Earlier I tried English but that failed, so let me attempt Geography this time.
The western arc of the Muslim world extends from Marrakesh in Spanish Morocco through Casablanca to Tangier across to Oran to Algiers to Tunis to Tripoli to Benghazi to Cairo to Jeddah reaching Mecca, a distance of some 3000 miles. In Marrakesh, European and Arab females frolic in bikinis in the numerous resorts, gambling is available round the clock in the casinos, alcohol flows freely; AND THIS IS A MUSLIM COUNTRY!!!! As one moves further east these activities become more and more restricted, finally being forbidden.
A reverse scenario exists from Mecca to Riyadh to Baghdad to Tehran to Kabul to Karachi to Jakarta ending in Sarmi/New Guinea at the terminus of the Indonesian Archipelago, some 6000miles away. Bali and Sarmi are clones of Marrakesh which is why westerners flock there.
Are there exceptions to the notion of a relaxed Islam at its extremities. Sure. Bahrain, ruled by the Al-Khalifahs,
is a liberal bastion in the northern Persian Gulf where females work, wear western dress, drive and divorce their husbands if they choose. A FACT! Also Dubai is a western enclave in the UAE. But my core point remains. Islam is most repressive at its core in Saudi.
While your East Timorese anecdotes are likely factual, they are irrelevant gossip and hearsay from an audience of one w/an ax to grind.
Quote from: Walter Josh on December 03, 2015, 08:05:30 PM
BB, you obviously couldn't resist, so it's another round I suppose. Lord have mercy!
For starters, this is a discussion forum where opinions are encouraged be they mis-guided, accepted or rejected; they are NOT wrong, despite your opening assertion; they are opinions!!!
Earlier I tried English but that failed, so let me attempt Geography this time.
The western arc of the Muslim world extends from Marrakesh in Spanish Morocco through Casablanca to Tangier across to Oran to Algiers to Tunis to Tripoli to Benghazi to Cairo to Jeddah reaching Mecca, a distance of some 3000 miles. In Marrakesh, European and Arab females frolic in bikinis in the numerous resorts, gambling is available round the clock in the casinos, alcohol flows freely; AND THIS IS A MUSLIM COUNTRY!!!! As one moves further east these activities become more and more restricted, finally being forbidden.
A reverse scenario exists from Mecca to Riyadh to Baghdad to Tehran to Kabul to Karachi to Jakarta ending in Sarmi/New Guinea at the terminus of the Indonesian Archipelago, some 6000miles away. Bali and Sarmi are clones of Marrakesh which is why westerners flock there.
Are there exceptions to the notion of a relaxed Islam at its extremities. Sure. Bahrain, ruled by the Al-Khalifahs,
is a liberal bastion in the northern Persian Gulf where females work, wear western dress, drive and divorce their husbands if they choose. A FACT! Also Dubai is a western enclave in the UAE. But my core point remains. Islam is most repressive at its core in Saudi.
While your East Timorese anecdotes are likely factual, they are irrelevant gossip and hearsay from an audience of one w/an ax to grind.
FWIW, Bali is not muslim, but Hindu.
My error. Meant Bima not Bali. Apologies.
Sumbawa, Province of Tenggara.
My plan is simple. For all intent and purposes, we are at war with the Middle East. When our national security is at risk, real leaders such as President Roosevelt gutted a section of our constitution for a time, placing Americans of Japanese decent in camps where they posed little risk...until the President decided that his people were no longer in jeopardy. That's right...drastic steps and measures because of drastically dangerous times.
So, while we are at war with Islam, I say we send all non-American Middle Easterners back to their country of origin, and allow Americans of Middle-Eastern decent the option of encampment and surveillance until we see no further threat, or they may choose to leave. In addition, No person of Middle-East decent should be allowed to enter our country until further notice, if ever at all. President Obozo is no Roosevelt, and he is seeing the dreams of his father come to fruition at a rapid pace. Can you see that those dreams are coming true? Ask the poor folks in California...they'll explain it all.
Quote from: Walter Josh on November 28, 2015, 10:12:27 AM
The Syrian refugees want to leave their homeland for the same reason the Mexicans do and the East Europeans did decades ago. The root of all immigration is economic as there is no opportunity for them and their children in their country of birth, as their leaders ignore them; happy to see their backsides.
The Syrians are Muslims and in Arabic, the word Islam translates as submission (to the will of Allah). As such, Free Will is not part of their psyche. So they have been abused and ignored for many hundreds of years because they have tolerated/submitted to their conditions in the name of religion. When they find a way to break away from this tyranny of the mind, they will get transformational change. Otherwise nothing will change and the USA attempting to ride to the rescue, is a fool's errand akin to Bush's promise to "bring democracy to the Arabs." Their fate is theirs.
The problem as we gave seen in France, the UK a some of our own cities, I.e. Dearborn Mi and Milwaukee Wi
They do not come here to assimilate and join in our democracy and freedoms, but to keep their seventh century culture and to gradually eliminate our freedoms and culture and use violence to force us to accept theirs. That is what the Koran commands them to do. In fact, it comes down to convert us or kill us.Why in the world would we allow these vipers among us. They are a number of centuries behind us as far as civilization is concerned and absolutely refuse to catch up to modern times. Permitting them entry is suicide.
Is It Time to Expel Turkey from NATO?
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-skeptics/it-time-expel-turkey-nato-14518
"Turkey's rash action in shooting down a Russian plane that apparently violated Turkish airspace for no more than 17 seconds is only the latest incident that should set off alarm bells in other NATO capitals. Ankara's reckless belligerence was exceeded only by its hypocrisy. Turkish planes violated the airspace of Greece more than 2,000 times in 2014 alone, and 2014 was a typical year for such incidents. Greek officials have long complained that their country must devote a considerable portion of its defense budget to intercept aircraft engaging in such violations. Fortunately, though, Athens has never emulated Turkey's standard and blasted offending aircraft out of the sky..."
"...The reality is that Turkey is an irresponsible loose cannon. NATO is supposed to be an alliance of peaceful democracies. Yet evidence continues to mount that Turkey fails to meet either standard. At best, the country is now what analyst Fareed Zakaria termed an "illiberal democracy"—a state that has periodic elections but where reliable protections for dissent are lacking and the political process is rigged in favor of the incumbent regime. That term accurately describes Turkey..."
NORTH ATLANTIC Treaty Organization.
What part of the NORTH ATLANTIC is ISLAMIC Turkey In?
Quote from: Walter Josh on December 04, 2015, 07:53:10 PM
Sumbawa, Province of Tenggara.
Okay, you have mentioned two obscure Indonesian towns to prove your point. I have traveled very near both Bima and Sarmi where you claim that foreigners flock to. I lived in Indonesia for twelve years and traveled all over the archipelago and can say with a degree of certainty that foreigners do NOT flock to these obscure locations. They DO flock to Bali and neighboring Lombok. Diving is spectacular in the islands and many people do go on diving trips to remote locations but not to frolic on the beaches in bikinis. That would definitely be frowned upon in most places.
Indonesians are radicalized enough that they burn churches (sometimes full of people) and bombed a nightclub in Bali. They threatened to bomb many more locations. My home was under 24 hour guard the entire 12 years I lived there. And Billy is right about Mindanao, Philippians. It is also radicalized and dangerous.
I left Indonesia in the middle of the night on a chartered jet from Singapore because the government had fallen and the city of Jakarta was literally on fire and being luted. People were being murdered in the street.
Having also lived many years in Saudi I will agree that it is the most severely islamic. But islam is islam. I hired them and know their culture well. True believers tend to be radical. The "peaceful" muslims tend to be ritual muslims, not faithful adherents to the letter of the Qu'ran.
** The reason why Bali is such a huge tourist attraction is because it IS hindu and tolerates people that muslims do not.
Quote from: Charliemyboy on December 04, 2015, 08:07:16 PM
The problem as we gave seen in France, the UK a some of our own cities, I.e. Dearborn Mi and Milwaukee Wi
They do not come here to assimilate and join in our democracy and freedoms, but to keep their seventh century culture and to gradually eliminate our freedoms and culture and use violence to force us to accept theirs. That is what the Koran commands them to do. In fact, it comes down to convert us or kill us.Why in the world would we allow these vipers among us. They are a number of centuries behind us as far as civilization is concerned and absolutely refuse to catch up to modern times. Permitting them entry is suicide.
Milwaukee...? Serious? I left Milwaukee Metro in 2000 after 18 years, and at least back then, the only reason anyone wore something on their head was WINTER or that WIND from the lake effect downtown. Is Usingners still on 3rd St?
I have spent extensive time in only two Muslim countries, Turkey and Morocco. I do not claim to be an expert on their culture, but I am an expert on what I have personally seen and lived. I was not there to try to convert anyone to any particular religion as I have no interest in that. I lived among them, in their homes, and I certainly learned enough to know that they are barbarians, inhumane and well, stupid. This comes from incest over centuries, I believe. Marrying one's first cousin does not produce brilliant offspring. I have seen young girls be careful to place Korans above their waist in order to not contaminate them with.....well, bathroom habits. This in rooms nowhere near a bathroom. I am still in contact with a couple of them but I know they are not my friends, as the Koran commands them to male no friends of infidels.
Insofar as their thinking we are dirty infidels, I must say I learned not to stand downwind of one of them--in both countries. I have known teenage girls who are the equivalent of slaves--held to do domestic work. They are the equivalent of slaves because their father came each week to collect their wages in order to support his three wives.
In short, I hate these people. I consider them somewhat less than civilized beings.
Quote from: Charliemyboy on December 05, 2015, 06:37:32 AM
I have spent extensive time in only two Muslim countries, Turkey and Morocco. I do not claim to be an expert on their culture, but I am an expert on what I have personally seen and lived. I was not there to try to convert anyone to any particular religion as I have no interest in that. I lived among them, in their homes, and I certainly learned enough to know that they are barbarians, inhumane and well, stupid. This comes from incest over centuries, I believe. Marrying one's first cousin does not produce brilliant offspring. I have seen young girls be careful to place Korans above their waist in order to not contaminate them with.....well, bathroom habits. This in rooms nowhere near a bathroom. I am still in contact with a couple of them but I know they are not my friends, as the Koran commands them to male no friends of infidels.
Insofar as their thinking we are dirty infidels, I must say I learned not to stand downwind of one of them--in both countries. I have known teenage girls who are the equivalent of slaves--held to do domestic work. They are the equivalent of slaves because their father came each week to collect their wages in order to support his three wives.
In short, I hate these people. I consider them somewhat less than civilized beings.
Give it a few years and you may consider them target practice.
Quote from: ZQuickSilverZ on December 05, 2015, 07:51:13 AM
Give it a few years and you may consider them target practice.
Oh, if only the Crusaders had actually completed the job long ago. They were millenniums ahead of us in the "proactive" department.
Kroz, I used cities since my analogy was geographic. Otherwise my core point had nothing to do w/any city, Indonesian or otherwise. Rather it was direct and simple, namely, that Islam is more intolerant and repressive the closer one gets to their holy sites and the reverse, the further away one gets.
This is hardly an original observation from me, being written about by ranking Arabists such as David Pryce-Jones as well as Bernard Lewis.
Quote from: kroz on December 05, 2015, 05:15:05 AM
Okay, you have mentioned two obscure Indonesian towns to prove your point. I have traveled very near both Bima and Sarmi where you claim that foreigners flock to. I lived in Indonesia for twelve years and traveled all over the archipelago and can say with a degree of certainty that foreigners do NOT flock to these obscure locations. They DO flock to Bali and neighboring Lombok. Diving is spectacular in the islands and many people do go on diving trips to remote locations but not to frolic on the beaches in bikinis. That would definitely be frowned upon in most places.
Indonesians are radicalized enough that they burn churches (sometimes full of people) and bombed a nightclub in Bali. They threatened to bomb many more locations. My home was under 24 hour guard the entire 12 years I lived there. And Billy is right about Mindanao, Philippians. It is also radicalized and dangerous.
I left Indonesia in the middle of the night on a chartered jet from Singapore because the government had fallen and the city of Jakarta was literally on fire and being luted. People were being murdered in the street.
Having also lived many years in Saudi I will agree that it is the most severely islamic. But islam is islam. I hired them and know their culture well. True believers tend to be radical. The "peaceful" muslims tend to be ritual muslims, not faithful adherents to the letter of the Qu'ran.
** The reason why Bali is such a huge tourist attraction is because it IS hindu and tolerates people that muslims do not.
There were about five insurgent groups operating in Indonesia when I arrived in E Timor, among them were the rebels in Aceh who were pretty much shooting up everything that moved, the good point, usually rival clans or groups, so they kept it in house....good.
The worse bunch were headed by Abu Bakar Bashir, of Saudi decent who was the "spiritual" leader (Ie head warlord) of the Indonesian Islamic terrorist group Jamayah Islamiyah. Around the end of 1999 (While I was still in tenure) there were a series of attacks in both Jakarta and Yogyakarta, targeting the places that foreigners frequent from bars to disco' etc. Then some idiot set off a Bomb in the Marriot in Jakarta which house an extension office of the US Embassy.
We had to deal with these scumbags infiltrating the Island and messing with the vote and attacking Christian businesses, several full scale riots, burnings, beatings, murders and the usual Muslim mayhem. Almost as bad as a payday night in Southeast DC. This os the infiltration and attrition strategy at work I talked about earlier in this thread.
P.O'd he lost in E, Timor,Bashir stated that he wanted to institute Sharia law, outlaw, liquor, go go bars, bikini's on the beach and in general, fun. To prove his point he Blew up Bali. Which he called an Island of Whores. Since most of his lackeys aren't very smart to begin with he got connected to the one who set off the car bomb and got his ass jailed.
The Saudi's export their own brand of Muslim Terrorism and control to these Islands, especially the Philippines and Southern Thailand called Wahabi or Wahabbism. They recruit these back water types, send them to Muslim countries such a Egypt and Pakistan to the most extreme Madrassas and teach them Arabic and graduate them as Q'uanic scholars
Then they send them back into their native countries to unleash hell. Most of the financing that the Islamic movements(MILF) and Autonomous regions (See ARMM, Muslim Mindanao) are thru these now trusted Clerics....he who controls the money controls everything.
That is how Saudi extends it's tentacles of Radical Islam to the far flung regions of the world Working almost EXCLUSIVELY thru various clerics
Next, those fun Fellows of the Southern Philippines, Atonymous Region of Muslim Mindanao, Eid Kabalau and Nour Misuari and their deadly organizations and terrorist cells Or Piracy, Kidnapping, Murder & rape for fun and profit.
Quote from: Walter Josh on December 03, 2015, 08:05:30 PM
BB, you obviously couldn't resist, so it's another round I suppose. Lord have mercy!
For starters, this is a discussion forum where opinions are encouraged be they mis-guided, accepted or rejected; they are NOT wrong, despite your opening assertion; they are opinions!!!
Earlier I tried English but that failed, so let me attempt Geography this time.
The western arc of the Muslim world extends from Marrakesh in Spanish Morocco through Casablanca to Tangier across to Oran to Algiers to Tunis to Tripoli to Benghazi to Cairo to Jeddah reaching Mecca, a distance of some 3000 miles. In Marrakesh, European and Arab females frolic in bikinis in the numerous resorts, gambling is available round the clock in the casinos, alcohol flows freely; AND THIS IS A MUSLIM COUNTRY!!!! As one moves further east these activities become more and more restricted, finally being forbidden.
A reverse scenario exists from Mecca to Riyadh to Baghdad to Tehran to Kabul to Karachi to Jakarta ending in Sarmi/New Guinea at the terminus of the Indonesian Archipelago, some 6000miles away. Bali and Sarmi are clones of Marrakesh which is why westerners flock there.
Are there exceptions to the notion of a relaxed Islam at its extremities. Sure. Bahrain, ruled by the Al-Khalifahs,
is a liberal bastion in the northern Persian Gulf where females work, wear western dress, drive and divorce their husbands if they choose. A FACT! Also Dubai is a western enclave in the UAE. But my core point remains. Islam is most repressive at its core in Saudi.
While your East Timorese anecdotes are likely factual, they are irrelevant gossip and hearsay from an audience of one w/an ax to grind.
The Axe I have to grind is with those who try to downplay Radical Islam, especially the Wahabbism that Saudi exports to far flung regions of the world.
Clarity Josh, Always Clarity. If your point is that Saudi is the most resptrictive of the Muslim countries then yes, I would agree, JUST SAY SO instead of wrapping it around in all that extraneous BS.
However, with the rise of the Islamic State and the Caliphate in SYria/Iraq, I think they have far surpassed the repressive Saudi's.
Quote from: carlb on December 05, 2015, 04:30:53 AM
NORTH ATLANTIC Treaty Organization.
What part of the NORTH ATLANTIC is ISLAMIC Turkey In?
Since Turkey was able to sell it's self as being a buffer against Russia, or rather the old Soviet Union for European nations, and we wanted to put nukes there. That's seriously why Turkey is in Nato. :lol:
Quote from: daidalos on December 05, 2015, 04:02:24 PM
Since Turkey was able to sell it's self as being a buffer against Russia, or rather the old Soviet Union for European nations, and we wanted to put nukes there. That's seriously why Turkey is in Nato. :lol:
Turkey was afraid that Stalin (or his inheritors) would gobble up (pun intended) vast portions of its country up when they did the annexation thing with something like 30% or Iran.
Quote from: Walter Josh on December 05, 2015, 01:25:45 PM
Kroz, I used cities since my analogy was geographic. Otherwise my core point had nothing to do w/any city, Indonesian or otherwise. Rather it was direct and simple, namely, that Islam is more intolerant and repressive the closer one gets to their holy sites and the reverse, the further away one gets.
This is hardly an original observation from me, being written about by ranking Arabists such as David Pryce-Jones as well as Bernard Lewis.
So, did David Pryce-Jones say that internationals were flocking to these cities and frolicking on the beaches in bikinis? That is what you were implying.
Other than the fact that Saudi is the hub of the islamic religion and has the strictest enforcement of Sharia, your geographical argument is of inconsequential value. Islam is a harsh taskmaster for those who choose it whether they are in Jordan or Indonesia. The ruling class of each Country determines how and when sharia is applied. With each succeeding ruler it can and usually does change one way or the other. It depends on how "devout" the ruling class is. However, islamic nations are never a truly peaceful place for non muslims.
Quote from: Billy's bayonet on December 05, 2015, 03:53:23 PM
There were about five insurgent groups operating in Indonesia when I arrived in E Timor, among them were the rebels in Aceh who were pretty much shooting up everything that moved, the good point, usually rival clans or groups, so they kept it in house....good.
The worse bunch were headed by Abu Bakar Bashir, of Saudi decent who was the "spiritual" leader (Ie head warlord) of the Indonesian Islamic terrorist group Jamayah Islamiyah. Around the end of 1999 (While I was still in tenure) there were a series of attacks in both Jakarta and Yogyakarta, targeting the places that foreigners frequent from bars to disco' etc. Then some idiot set off a Bomb in the Marriot in Jakarta which house an extension office of the US Embassy.
We had to deal with these scumbags infiltrating the Island and messing with the vote and attacking Christian businesses, several full scale riots, burnings, beatings, murders and the usual Muslim mayhem. Almost as bad as a payday night in Southeast DC. This os the infiltration and attrition strategy at work I talked about earlier in this thread.
P.O'd he lost in E, Timor,Bashir stated that he wanted to institute Sharia law, outlaw, liquor, go go bars, bikini's on the beach and in general, fun. To prove his point he Blew up Bali. Which he called an Island of Whores. Since most of his lackeys aren't very smart to begin with he got connected to the one who set off the car bomb and got his ass jailed.
The Saudi's export their own brand of Muslim Terrorism and control to these Islands, especially the Philippines and Southern Thailand called Wahabi or Wahabbism. They recruit these back water types, send them to Muslim countries such a Egypt and Pakistan to the most extreme Madrassas and teach them Arabic and graduate them as Q'uanic scholars
Then they send them back into their native countries to unleash hell. Most of the financing that the Islamic movements(MILF) and Autonomous regions (See ARMM, Muslim Mindanao) are thru these now trusted Clerics....he who controls the money controls everything.
That is how Saudi extends it's tentacles of Radical Islam to the far flung regions of the world Working almost EXCLUSIVELY thru various clerics
Next, those fun Fellows of the Southern Philippines, Atonymous Region of Muslim Mindanao, Eid Kabalau and Nour Misuari and their deadly organizations and terrorist cells Or Piracy, Kidnapping, Murder & rape for fun and profit.
I understand your historic picture of the violence in Indonesia. Those Aceh folks are very violent people! They dominate north Sumatra.
I was still there when they bombed Bali but I left before the bomb at the Jakarta Marriott. I left in May 1998 which was soon after the fall of Suharto. Melee was reigning in Jakarta and military tanks were in the streets. It was eerie. I did get caught in one situation where the military was firing rounds of small ammo at a group of rioters. I happened to be on the lawn of the Hilton Hotel at the time and could actually hear the bullets whizzing past me. The security guards immediately got me inside of the hotel. I wasn't in real danger but I was that close to the violence.
The Saudi's infiltrated Java in the early 90s and rounded up bus loads of young foolish Indonesia kids and took them somewhere for training. I never knew where. It was a sign of things yet to come. The Indonesians tend to be very emotional people anyway.... easily swayed. They are also very involved in shaman spiritualism.... very superstitious. They love to be part of a group, any group. On Saturday mornings they got out in the street and marched in large groups. I never really understood. They just loved to march and follow a leader! They would start at the crack of dawn and wake me up every Saturday. :mad:
Quote from: kroz on December 05, 2015, 04:39:21 PM
The Saudi's infiltrated Java in the early 90s and rounded up bus loads of young foolish Indonesia kids and took them somewhere for training. I never knew where. It was a sign of things yet to come. The Indonesians tend to be very emotional people anyway.... easily swayed. They are also very involved in shaman spiritualism.... very superstitious. They love to be part of a group, any group. On Saturday mornings they got out in the street and marched in large groups. I never really understood. They just loved to march and follow a leader! They would start at the crack of dawn and wake me up every Saturday. :mad:
This and your previous post about the inconsequentiality of "distance" vs western behavior is the point I was trying to make, my entire 12 years spent in that region of Asia saw ever increasing measures towards the Saudi ideal with women forced into full Pra'ad,backlash against the establishments serving liquor and punishment directed at those straying from Islamic mores. Given their way the Clerics institute little Mini Saudia Arabia's" in their respective venue.
You are correct about shamanism, native superstitions all over the Archipeligo, but Thai's & Malay too.... Filipino's even worse. Ghosts, witches with no lower body, shape shifting creatures, giants who smoke banana tree cigars, sea monsters, death tree's, enchanted rocks and talking volcanos....
Ok Kroz, it's apparent that you have to be right and have the last word, always; so you're welcome. In closing, Pryce-Jones, Lewis and Huntington, world ranking Arabists all, come to mind. I reflect and realize that if they only had your worldly experiences, your anecdotes and your tales filled w/such trauma; like escaping after midnight, like being awakened at dawn by violent demonstrators, like hearing rounds of small arms bullets whizzing past, like observing murder on the streets!!! Oh my God, it's hard to grasp how one emotionally survives such ordeals. The horror, the pity, the shame. Hillary would be envious.
If these Arabists had experienced such stuff, I realize how much more pregnant w/meaning and nuance their scholarly writing would have been. What a missed opportunity!!!
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For the record, I don't imply, I write English plain enough for 3rd graders.
But stay pure and pretentious; as it obviously makes life easier to bear.
For my own part I don't want them here. They are not refugees, they are economic migrants seeking an easy life on the dole in the countries they are fleeing to, with the ultimate goal of turning those countries into the same sorts of filthy pits and failed states they are now fleeing. It's far from lost on me that the countries they are fleeing refuse to take them back. It's the new Mariel Boatlift. Islamic countries spewing their refuse onto our shores as Castro did. Refuse and trash is all Islam produces.
All of the Muslim countries in the world have a GDP less than that of Italy, because of Islam. And now that cultural and ideological cancer is metastasizing into the rest of the world. Muslim immigrants are like viruses, infecting new cells (neighborhoods in our country and others) until they burst open, releasing new viruses to infect the rest of the body/nation. Islam is the chief evil in our world, the enemy, and it is Satan operating right out in the open for all to see. That his agent is our president and his minions infect our country at the highest levels is obvious. What shall we do about it?
To Kroz.
I've re-read my posts to you and after reflecting a few days,
I realize that some were ill tempered and unnecessary.
As such, I apologize.
WJ
Quote from: Walter Josh on December 07, 2015, 01:30:31 PM
To Kroz.
I've re-read my posts to you and after reflecting a few days,
I realize that some were ill tempered and unnecessary.
As such, I apologize.
WJ
Thank you, wj. I'm really not that bad of a person.
I do not normally react as I did with you. Your posts seemed extremely arrogant and pretentious to me. I apologize also.
We will start over. :thumbup:
I said it once and I will say it again, there is no Syrian situation, only a Muslim one.
Quote from: kroz on December 07, 2015, 04:51:59 PM
Thank you, wj. I'm really not that bad of a person.
I do not normally react as I did with you. Your posts seemed extremely arrogant and pretentious to me. I apologize also.
We will start over. :thumbup:
I hope you all will start over as I like both of you. Kroz with your obvious world experience and Walter with a certain knowledge-humorously put most of the time(reminds me of a British story teller and I love the dry humor) both have a load of stuff worth sharing. :smile:
Quote from: Dori on November 26, 2015, 09:19:10 AM
Obama says the Syrian refugees are like the Pilgrims of the Mayflower
:mad:
Liberal equivalency.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/261368-obama-syrian-refugees-are-like-pilgrims-on-the-mayflower
Except the Pilgrims, unlike Syrian Mudslimes, didn't wear suicide vests, turn their heads to committing pedophilia, kill their spouses if they didn't follow their master's orders, cover their faces in public, etc... or wipe themselves with their right hand after #2.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/12/8/syrian-refugees-resettled-in-texas-indiana.html
Typical liberal stupidity.