Quote from: kroz on November 30, 2015, 03:25:08 PM
I have traveled in many of the muslim countries.  I really have a good understanding of the culture.  My husband's sister's family lived many years in Jordan and we visited them.  I've been to Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey, Egypt, India, Nepal, Malaysia, and others.  This gave me a cross section of various cultures, both Shia and Shiite. 

I am not an authority but I sure have a lot of cumulative knowledge of islam.

Oh I bet you do indeed......

Quote from: kroz on November 30, 2015, 03:25:08 PM
You have addressed comments in your post from different people.

I will comment on the portion that involved me.  I purchased 22 1/2 carat gold in Saudi frequently.  They do have 18 carat but the locals preferred the 22 1/2 carat.

I saw many Bedouin women wearing unbelievable amounts of gold.  Their husband's wealth was in his wife's gold jewelry.  It was the only thing of value to buy in Saudi back in the 70s.  That was their bank account... gold jewelry. 

One day we drove through what appeared to be a remote Bedouin enclave that was full of squalor and filth.  Goats running around everywhere, tents and camels.  Veiled women were walking around but you could see their gold bangles and necklaces.... not chains but heavy gaudy necklaces.

I also lived in Indonesia for many years and they actually had more poor people than the middle eastern countries.  Poverty was a problem but during the 80s and 90s there was an emerging middle class with far less poverty.

I have traveled in many of the muslim countries.  I really have a good understanding of the culture.  My husband's sister's family lived many years in Jordan and we visited them.  I've been to Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey, Egypt, India, Nepal, Malaysia, and others.  This gave me a cross section of various cultures, both Shia and Shiite. 

I am not an authority but I sure have a lot of cumulative knowledge of islam.

Interesting....
My brother has flown for UAE about 20 years.   I've heard the women will strip off the 'arab garb' and put on completely westernized clothing the moment the airplane crosses international boundries, and vice versa upon returning.  From some of the stories, I've wondered if the impression we may have in the USA is generally incorrect - many muslins act like muslins because it's the state religion, and the religious ones are rather few.  Or, the dedicated religious sector is actually quite few.

I also heard similar stories of wearing their wealth in gold, and it's like a very wealthy welfare state - nobody works, or has any skills, they hire out EVERYTHING to outsiders.  Of course that is a generalization, like comparing the inside-the-beltway crowd to normal Americans....   

Here in the USA, we carry our debt in credit cards... LOL.

Quote from: Hoofer on December 02, 2015, 12:08:08 AM
Interesting....
My brother has flown for UAE about 20 years.   I've heard the women will strip off the 'arab garb' and put on completely westernized clothing the moment the airplane crosses international boundries, and vice versa upon returning.  From some of the stories, I've wondered if the impression we may have in the USA is generally incorrect - many muslins act like muslins because it's the state religion, and the religious ones are rather few.  Or, the dedicated religious sector is actually quite few.

I also heard similar stories of wearing their wealth in gold, and it's like a very wealthy welfare state - nobody works, or has any skills, they hire out EVERYTHING to outsiders.  Of course that is a generalization, like comparing the inside-the-beltway crowd to normal Americans....   

Here in the USA, we carry our debt in credit cards... LOL.

Yes, your brother has undoubtedly told you accurate stories.  It is true that many of the women shed the burka when they were in western countries.  And as you land in an arab nation like Saudi they will start digging in their carry-on bags for their burkas.  For many there is no evidence of their muslim faith when they are in the West.  They look like regular people.

Yes, islam is a cultural tradition for many if not most of them.  It is ritual and a form of discipline.  Actually it is the law of the land in Saudi.  No one questions it.  Without islam the government would have no hold over the people.  The jihadists fight for it like we fight for our own government.  Farrakhan was right when he said "The Nation of Islam".  It is a form of governance.  Sharia is the law part of the system.  It is a faux theocracy.  I say faux because it is such a lie.  Mohammed was the antithesis of Jesus Christ.

No Arab ever works HARD by our standards.  It is just not in their DNA.  It takes 300 arab men to equal the work of one American woman.

Back in the 70s Saudi had full employment and imported massive numbers of foreigners.  White collar jobs were done by Americans and Europeans.  Blue collar jobs by Pakistani and Philippinos.  Street sweepers and trash collectors were Yemeni.

Islam is a harsh taskmaster.  It is ridged and relentless.  There is no place for mercy or grace.  Punishments are swift and certain.  Floggings and other punishments are always public to make an example of wrongdoing.  The first weekend I lived there they beheaded nine Yemeni and Pakistani men outside of my compound gates.  They had abducted, ravaged and killed a young Saudi boy.  Their execution was three days after the incident.

They even made sure that all expats were dressed appropriately modest...covered from neck to ankles and pants for women only under a very long top covering the rump.  If not in compliance you could be doused with battery acid or something equally unpleasant by a local.  Men were forced to keep their hair short.  The locals would cut your hair on the street if it was deemed to be too long.

Westerners do not have a clue how oppressive islam is.  It requires adherents to make a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once during their lives.  Poor people from distant muslim nations would drive there and sell old carpets along the way to finance their trip.  I bought a few of those small rugs.  It was a big sacrifice on their part to make this non-vacation pilgrimage.  Their old vehicles would break down along the way and they were at the mercy of locals to help them.  As previously noted, mercy was scarce. 

Quote from: Hoofer on December 02, 2015, 12:08:08 AM
Interesting....
My brother has flown for UAE about 20 years.   I've heard the women will strip off the 'arab garb' and put on completely westernized clothing the moment the airplane crosses international boundries, and vice versa upon returning.  From some of the stories, I've wondered if the impression we may have in the USA is generally incorrect - many muslins act like muslins because it's the state religion, and the religious ones are rather few.  Or, the dedicated religious sector is actually quite few.

I also heard similar stories of wearing their wealth in gold, and it's like a very wealthy welfare state - nobody works, or has any skills, they hire out EVERYTHING to outsiders.  Of course that is a generalization, like comparing the inside-the-beltway crowd to normal Americans....   

Here in the USA, we carry our debt in credit cards... LOL.

Excellent point!!! I was listening to a few neighbors discussing finance while helping my friend on a project.
One said she was so happy because the credit card company increased her limit because she has such good credit, while the other, not to be out done, claimed credit score was by far more important, and boasted her number.

My friend and I chuckled at how ludicrous the thought of being in debt was, when we heard the third woman ask "Why not just pay cash for what you need"?

All kinds of excuses ensued, from you need credit to exist, to, a card is so much safer than cash.
She smiled and said I cut all my cards up and have zero debt. The other two shut up.

Funny how well trained we Americans are, that being in debt like our govt, is considered status?

Erdogan said that he will resign if it will be proved, that Turkey illegally import oil stolen from Syria by ISIS. Right now russian Ministry of defence havin briffing with press (over 300 journalists present, I cross my fingers, that some of them from US) with proofs of this criminal nactivity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwKHtF8LXVY
I don't think Erdogan will resign, Koran said it is O.K. to lie to infidels.

Nobel Laureate Kipling who worked for the British Colonial Office while in India, then under local Muslims rule, understood Islam for what it always was.
*It is a cult demanding submission (the meaning of the word Islam) and which is viscerally hostile to and contemptuous of non-Islamic values.
*As a result, submission generates passivity in their people.
*Additionally, since submission (to the will of Allah) negates Free Will; attributes such as choice, creativity, individualism and the like, are virtually extinct in Muslim nations.
*Since there is no outlet for these normal human traits, change is resisted and stifled.
*Consequently, any effort to effect change necessitates violence.
One caveat. The Muslim world stretches from Morocco in westernmost Africa to Indonesia and the Philippines in easternmost Asia. The further one gets from Mecca and Media, in all directions, the far weaker the power of the Mullahs and the grip of Islam on the psyche of its followers. As such, demolishing those shrines might be a good starting point in effecting transformational change.

Quote from: kalash on December 02, 2015, 08:00:19 AM
russian Ministry of defence havin briffing with press  with proofs of this criminal nactivity.

СNN repors
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/02/europe/syria-turkey-russia-warplane-tensions/index.html

Quote from: kroz on December 02, 2015, 05:11:50 AM
Yes, your brother has undoubtedly told you accurate stories.  It is true that many of the women shed the burka when they were in western countries.  And as you land in an arab nation like Saudi they will start digging in their carry-on bags for their burkas.  For many there is no evidence of their muslim faith when they are in the West.  They look like regular people.

As he announced they were leaving Saudi, (or whatever national airspace), he said the women would jump out of their seats, strip nearly naked in the aisles and don blue jeans, halter tops like they were headed to a Rodeo!  He described it as a women's locker room. 

QuoteYes, islam is a cultural tradition for many if not most of them.  It is ritual and a form of discipline.  Actually it is the law of the land in Saudi.  No one questions it.  Without islam the government would have no hold over the people.  The jihadists fight for it like we fight for our own government.  Farrakhan was right when he said "The Nation of Islam".  It is a form of governance.  Sharia is the law part of the system.  It is a faux theocracy.  I say faux because it is such a lie.  Mohammed was the antithesis of Jesus Christ.

He emailed us a couple of pictures of his wife, visiting from Kansas, being driven around by one of their sons.  It looked like a pile of clothes in the passenger seat, with eyes...!

QuoteNo Arab ever works HARD by our standards.  It is just not in their DNA.  It takes 300 arab men to equal the work of one American woman.

Back in the 70s Saudi had full employment and imported massive numbers of foreigners.  White collar jobs were done by Americans and Europeans.  Blue collar jobs by Pakistani and Philippinos.  Street sweepers and trash collectors were Yemeni.

Yup, there are only two kinds of foreigners, those working, and the few that vacation (at their own risk).

QuoteIslam is a harsh taskmaster.  It is ridged and relentless.  There is no place for mercy or grace.  Punishments are swift and certain.  Floggings and other punishments are always public to make an example of wrongdoing.  The first weekend I lived there they beheaded nine Yemeni and Pakistani men outside of my compound gates.  They had abducted, ravaged and killed a young Saudi boy.  Their execution was three days after the incident. 

Reminds me of the woman caught in adultery, the men brought her before Jesus, He scribbled on the ground...  They had no mercy for her, for all we know, she may have been discovered while being raped - but, nevertheless, they wanted her punished -now- (not the man, just the woman)

QuoteThey even made sure that all expats were dressed appropriately modest...covered from neck to ankles and pants for women only under a very long top covering the rump.  If not in compliance you could be doused with battery acid or something equally unpleasant by a local.  Men were forced to keep their hair short.  The locals would cut your hair on the street if it was deemed to be too long.

Westerners do not have a clue how oppressive islam is.  It requires adherents to make a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once during their lives.  Poor people from distant muslim nations would drive there and sell old carpets along the way to finance their trip.  I bought a few of those small rugs.  It was a big sacrifice on their part to make this non-vacation pilgrimage.  Their old vehicles would break down along the way and they were at the mercy of locals to help them.  As previously noted, mercy was scarce.

My brother would certainly confirm everything you said, and much, much more.   All legalism, and no grace, but the worst kinds of vice!

Quote from: Walter Josh on November 28, 2015, 09:50:29 PM
New Strategy of warfare??? Wow, who knew.
Neither the Celts nor the Vikings left France and Scandinavia respectively, as they're still there; but large numbers of them did sail abroad for economic reasons (trade opportunities). The Romans went north to secure their borders against hostile Germanic tribes and the Mongols ventured west because the Asiatic plains were not fertile enough to support their expanding peoples. The movement of large groups over great distances is always, "ALWAYS" a function of economics, as Adam Smith, an original mind, cogently pointed out.
Much of talk radio and tv is ignorant blather directed at those small minds already made up, by information long on bs and short on any historical accuracy.
My original comment, about the Syrians, derives from 18 years as a petrochemical engineers working w/the Arabs, their language and their culture; rather than the latest malarkey hyped on idiot tv such as FOX.
Try opening your brain.

That is one hell if a strawman there, The Scandinavians emmigrated to the US for economic opportunities yes that is true, but the vast migrations of huns, mongols and vandals were not out of economic reasons, they were for warfare and not because they wanted to become farmers. And btw when the Vikings first reached the US to establish New farming communities they were brutally slaughtered by the native indians. It wasn't until the 19th Century Scandinavians emmigrated to the US and they ASSIMILATED to the point that today they can't even speak Norwegian except the word "ja" for yes and they have no idea what a fjøsnisse is.

But in any case what your argument? We should allow immigration because they are coming out of love like Jeb Bush argues? Seeking better lives? And if so then why are they chanting for the destruction of Europe?

Quote from: Walter Josh on December 02, 2015, 12:23:42 PM

One caveat. The Muslim world stretches from Morocco in westernmost Africa to Indonesia and the Philippines in easternmost Asia. The further one gets from Mecca and Media, in all directions, the far weaker the power of the Mullahs and the grip of Islam on the psyche of its followers. As such, demolishing those shrines might be a good starting point in effecting transformational change.

Wrong.

If anything the power of the clerics aligned with the ruling clans who control regional area's....thus the wealth and power...is just about absolute.

East Timor (now Timor Leste) is about as far away from Mecca and Medina as one can get, Parts of Indonesia and the Southern Philippines (Mindanao) where I worked are a little closer but the same thing applies. If anything the Clerics have the greatest control due to the fact that they are usually the ones to dispense food, clothing, sometime medical services to the masses through the Mosque's. Since these regions are under SHARIA law, that is the distinct venue of the learned Clerics, many of whom have been schooled in Saudi Arabia and speak, read and write Arabic....very important among people who are often illiterate or semi illiterate. double that or triple it for leaders of Militant Islamic terrorist groups like Abu Bakar Bashir, (Jamayah Islamiyah) author of the assaults/riots in East timor and the Bali Bombing

One of the first things I learned after landing in East timor was from a (Christian) Filipino Anti Terrorist group Police officer was:

"The Problem with the Moro (muslim people) is, that they do whatever the Imam's tell them".

In the following years, in the several different countries aforementioned I found this simple statement to be correct.

Quote from: Walter Josh on December 02, 2015, 12:23:42 PM
Nobel Laureate Kipling who worked for the British Colonial Office while in India, then under local Muslims rule, understood Islam for what it always was.
*It is a cult demanding submission (the meaning of the word Islam) and which is viscerally hostile to and contemptuous of non-Islamic values.
*As a result, submission generates passivity in their people.
*Additionally, since submission (to the will of Allah) negates Free Will; attributes such as choice, creativity, individualism and the like, are virtually extinct in Muslim nations.
*Since there is no outlet for these normal human traits, change is resisted and stifled.
*Consequently, any effort to effect change necessitates violence.
One caveat. The Muslim world stretches from Morocco in westernmost Africa to Indonesia and the Philippines in easternmost Asia. The further one gets from Mecca and Media, in all directions, the far weaker the power of the Mullahs and the grip of Islam on the psyche of its followers. As such, demolishing those shrines might be a good starting point in effecting transformational change.

Where have you been?  Enjoyed this opinion.   

Mountain, I never said nor do I advocate that we should allow immigration because they come here as an act of love. Nor do I embrace any views/values of a sanctimonious schmuck like Jeb Bush. You would have understood this had you read what I said rather than reacting to what you thought I may have meant.
Since this is a discussion form you're obviously entitled to your opinion about the cause of mass migration but I'll stick w/Adam Smith. By the way, the Vandals were a Germanic Tribe, not Asiatic.

BB, you obviously couldn't resist, so it's another round I suppose. Lord have mercy!
For starters, this is a discussion forum where opinions are encouraged be they mis-guided, accepted or rejected; they are NOT wrong, despite your opening assertion; they are opinions!!!
Earlier I tried English but that failed, so let me attempt Geography this time.
The western arc of the Muslim world extends from Marrakesh in Spanish Morocco through Casablanca to Tangier across to Oran to Algiers to Tunis to Tripoli to Benghazi to Cairo to Jeddah reaching Mecca, a distance of some 3000 miles. In Marrakesh, European and Arab females frolic in bikinis in the numerous resorts, gambling is available round the clock in the casinos, alcohol flows freely; AND THIS IS A MUSLIM COUNTRY!!!! As one moves further east these activities become more and more restricted, finally being forbidden.
A reverse scenario exists from Mecca to Riyadh to Baghdad to Tehran to Kabul to Karachi to Jakarta ending in Sarmi/New Guinea at the terminus of the Indonesian Archipelago, some 6000miles away. Bali and Sarmi are clones of Marrakesh which is why westerners flock there.
Are there exceptions to the notion of a relaxed Islam at its extremities. Sure. Bahrain, ruled by the Al-Khalifahs,
is a liberal bastion in the northern Persian Gulf where females work, wear western dress, drive and divorce their husbands if they choose. A FACT! Also Dubai is a western enclave in the UAE. But my core point remains. Islam is most repressive at its core in Saudi.
While your East Timorese anecdotes are likely factual, they are irrelevant gossip and hearsay from an audience of one w/an ax to grind.

Quote from: Walter Josh on December 03, 2015, 08:05:30 PM
BB, you obviously couldn't resist, so it's another round I suppose. Lord have mercy!
For starters, this is a discussion forum where opinions are encouraged be they mis-guided, accepted or rejected; they are NOT wrong, despite your opening assertion; they are opinions!!!
Earlier I tried English but that failed, so let me attempt Geography this time.
The western arc of the Muslim world extends from Marrakesh in Spanish Morocco through Casablanca to Tangier across to Oran to Algiers to Tunis to Tripoli to Benghazi to Cairo to Jeddah reaching Mecca, a distance of some 3000 miles. In Marrakesh, European and Arab females frolic in bikinis in the numerous resorts, gambling is available round the clock in the casinos, alcohol flows freely; AND THIS IS A MUSLIM COUNTRY!!!! As one moves further east these activities become more and more restricted, finally being forbidden.
A reverse scenario exists from Mecca to Riyadh to Baghdad to Tehran to Kabul to Karachi to Jakarta ending in Sarmi/New Guinea at the terminus of the Indonesian Archipelago, some 6000miles away. Bali and Sarmi are clones of Marrakesh which is why westerners flock there.
Are there exceptions to the notion of a relaxed Islam at its extremities. Sure. Bahrain, ruled by the Al-Khalifahs,
is a liberal bastion in the northern Persian Gulf where females work, wear western dress, drive and divorce their husbands if they choose. A FACT! Also Dubai is a western enclave in the UAE. But my core point remains. Islam is most repressive at its core in Saudi.
While your East Timorese anecdotes are likely factual, they are irrelevant gossip and hearsay from an audience of one w/an ax to grind.

FWIW, Bali is not muslim, but Hindu.