Conservative Political Forum

"Son of Boss" - Obama for America TV Ad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DABbkpHzg3o#ws)





http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/08/opinion/canellos-kleinbard-romney-taxes/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/08/opinion/canellos-kleinbard-romney-taxes/index.html)


"What emerges from this window into corporate tax compliance behavior is the picture of an executive who was willing to go to the edge, if not beyond, to bend the rules to seek an unfair advantage, and then hide behind the advice of so-called experts to deflect criticism when a scheme backfires."





It's always funny seeing one corporate owned crook attack another corporate owned crook, but, none the less, looks bad on ol'rom.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 09, 2012, 08:57:49 PM
"Son of Boss" - Obama for America TV Ad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DABbkpHzg3o#ws)





http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/08/opinion/canellos-kleinbard-romney-taxes/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/08/opinion/canellos-kleinbard-romney-taxes/index.html)


"What emerges from this window into corporate tax compliance behavior is the picture of an executive who was willing to go to the edge, if not beyond, to bend the rules to seek an unfair advantage, and then hide behind the advice of so-called experts to deflect criticism when a scheme backfires."





It's always funny seeing one corporate owned crook attack another corporate owned crook, but, none the less, looks bad on ol'rom.

Nah... you're just a capitalist hating anti-American...

Quote from: taxed on August 09, 2012, 09:31:40 PM
Nah... you're just a capitalist hating anti-American...

I don't hate capitalism, Taxi, and Im not anti-American, But I  do dislike greed immensely...

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 09, 2012, 10:27:08 PM


I don't hate capitalism, Taxi, and Im not anti-American, But I  do dislike greed immensely...

No, you are indeed anti-Capitalist and anti-American.  You don't even know what greed is.

Quote from: taxed on August 09, 2012, 10:35:27 PM
No, you are indeed anti-Capitalist and anti-American.  You don't even know what greed is.

No, Im not.. And yes, I do.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 09, 2012, 10:27:08 PM


I don't hate capitalism, Taxi, and Im not anti-American, But I  do dislike greed immensely...

Greed or success?

Please post links to the laws that Romney has broken. If he was operating within the convoluted US tax code, this is just another smear tactic by Obama...............................the guy that got rich from two fictional accounts of his life.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 09, 2012, 10:27:08 PM


I don't hate capitalism, Taxi, and Im not anti-American, But I  do dislike greed immensely...

Yeah. Greed sucks.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-02-01/romney-tax-returns-show-7-million-in-donations-over-2-years.html (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-02-01/romney-tax-returns-show-7-million-in-donations-over-2-years.html)

http://nation.foxnews.com/mitt-romney/2012/01/24/whos-greedy-obama-gave-1-charity-romney-gave-15 (http://nation.foxnews.com/mitt-romney/2012/01/24/whos-greedy-obama-gave-1-charity-romney-gave-15)

Obama started giving more to charity once his political career took off, book sales took off, and his returns began to come under more scrutiny.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/26/us/politics/26taxes.html?_r=1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/26/us/politics/26taxes.html?_r=1)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/obamas-gifts-to-charity-just-1-percent/2012/02/14/gIQAXuMDER_blog.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/obamas-gifts-to-charity-just-1-percent/2012/02/14/gIQAXuMDER_blog.html)

Is Mr Obama collecying his salary as president? Romney took no salary as either governor, nor president of the olympics.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=95843 (http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=95843)

Betcha didn't know that Michelle Obama worked for a Walmart supplier, and had to quit when her husband started attacking them. :wink:

Once again, get your facts straight kid. Presenting Obama campaign ads, as the truth, is just going to end up embarrassing you.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 09, 2012, 08:57:49 PM
"Son of Boss" - Obama for America TV Ad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DABbkpHzg3o#ws)





http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/08/opinion/canellos-kleinbard-romney-taxes/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/08/opinion/canellos-kleinbard-romney-taxes/index.html)


"What emerges from this window into corporate tax compliance behavior is the picture of an executive who was willing to go to the edge, if not beyond, to bend the rules to seek an unfair advantage, and then hide behind the advice of so-called experts to deflect criticism when a scheme backfires."





It's always funny seeing one corporate owned crook attack another corporate owned crook, but, none the less, looks bad on ol'rom.

At least he played by the rules.
But I find it fascinating that you are so gullible as to fall for the distraction of attack ads, and completely ignore the fact that Hussein used our treasury for political gains as well as a tool to destroy the country, making the recession into a depression.

Stimulus my ass, he knew exactly what he was doing and every bit of it was to deepen the recession into a depression.
That's why all he runs on is Romney's record, not his own.
Instead of Fish, it should be lemming.

Quote from: Solar on August 10, 2012, 06:01:25 AM
At least he played by the rules.
But I find it fascinating that you are so gullible as to fall for the distraction of attack ads, and completely ignore the fact that Hussein used our treasury for political gains as well as a tool to destroy the country, making the recession into a depression.

Stimulus my ass, he knew exactly what he was doing and every bit of it was to deepen the recession into a depression.
That's why all he runs on is Romney's record, not his own.
Instead of Fish, it should be lemming.

The scary part is.................there are millions of them. And they can vote. Sometimes more than once.

Obama knows it, too.

Quote from: kramarat on August 10, 2012, 06:20:37 AM
The scary part is.................there are millions of them. And they can vote. Sometimes more than once.

Obama knows it, too.

I think the difference in a lib and a Con, is the gullibility factor.
Libs so badly want to believe in an ideal, that they allow themselves to ignore truth and reality, and never once use critical thinking, it's all about feeling the emotion of hope and change.
When you think about it, that slogan was a stroke of genius, it plays on the idealism and emotional nerve center of the lib psyche.

Quote from: Solar on August 10, 2012, 07:05:12 AM
I think the difference in a lib and a Con, is the gullibility factor.
Libs so badly want to believe in an ideal, that they allow themselves to ignore truth and reality, and never once use critical thinking, it's all about feeling the emotion of hope and change.
When you think about it, that slogan was a stroke of genius, it plays on the idealism and emotional nerve center of the lib psyche.

One thing I've learned.........................Obama doesn't do anything by accident.

He may not get reelected, but the damage he has done, is immense. We'll be feeling it for years to come. :sad:

Quote from: Solar on August 10, 2012, 06:01:25 AM
At least he played by the rules.

More like, playing by the loopholes.

"Did Romney pay 10 percent in taxes? Five percent? Zero? We don't know," says a narrator. "But we do know that Romney personally approved over $70 million in fictional losses to the IRS as part of the notorious 'Son of Boss' tax scandal — one of the largest tax avoidance schemes in history."


Romney, and Obama,  are the same. They're both corporate owned.

It's sad how people look over so much bad just so their party can succeed. Wish this would end so America could have an actual chance at a better future.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 10, 2012, 07:59:34 AM

More like, playing by the loopholes.

"Did Romney pay 10 percent in taxes? Five percent? Zero? We don't know," says a narrator. "But we do know that Romney personally approved over $70 million in fictional losses to the IRS as part of the notorious 'Son of Boss' tax scandal — one of the largest tax avoidance schemes in history."


Romney, and Obama,  are the same. They're both corporate owned.

It's sad how people look over so much bad just so their party can succeed. Wish this would end so America could have an actual chance at a better future.

AVOIDING TAXES IS NOT AGAINST THE LAW YOU DUMB FUCK! There is no rule that says you have to pay more than the absolute minimum that's due. LEARN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TAX AVOIDANCE AND TAX EVASION. Those type of attack ads are aimed at people exactly like you - ignorant. Your exactly like those clowns who were screaming at how bad outsourcing was, when what they really meant was offshoring.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 10, 2012, 07:59:34 AM

More like, playing by the loopholes.

"Did Romney pay 10 percent in taxes? Five percent? Zero? We don't know," says a narrator. "But we do know that Romney personally approved over $70 million in fictional losses to the IRS as part of the notorious 'Son of Boss' tax scandal — one of the largest tax avoidance schemes in history."


Romney, and Obama,  are the same. They're both corporate owned.

It's sad how people look over so much bad just so their party can succeed. Wish this would end so America could have an actual chance at a better future.

Was the tax avoidance scheme illegal?

It's the assholes in Washington that write tax law. It's written specifically, by both republicans and democrats, to take care of their corporate pals............................nobody else can understand it.

Romney was smart enough to hire someone to figure it out. To demonize the guy, because he found ways to pay less money to the corrupt government, (legally), is bullshit. Seems like smart business practice to me.

Stop listening to Obama's, "blame the rich", BS. It's a lie. The most prominent figure in our current financial disaster, is right in Obama's mirror.

I was going to post a link, but it contains enough information to merit it's own thread.

Why are we broke?

It's the GOVERNMENT stupid! Wake up.

Quote from: kramarat on August 10, 2012, 08:24:55 AM
It's the GOVERNMENT stupid! Wake up.

"Wake up"? Im saying exactly what you're saying-

Quote from: kramarat on August 10, 2012, 08:24:55 AM
It's written specifically, by both republicans and democrats, to take care of their corporate pals

Romney is willing to use those loopholes and so is Obama...  That's the point, They're both bought.  Granted, there's less evidence that Obama is willing to use those loopholes, though he sure has allowed for many placed in his healthcare bill , as well as that "credit card reform", so you do the math.



They're playing you guys just like they're playing those "liberals" you dislike.  Being that you're supposedly "awake" you should realize this by now.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 10, 2012, 09:13:45 AM
"Wake up"? Im saying exactly what you're saying-

Romney is willing to use those loopholes and so is Obama...  That's the point, They're both bought.  Granted, there's less evidence that Obama is willing to use those loopholes, though he sure has allowed for many placed in his healthcare bill , as well as that "credit card reform", so you do the math.



They're playing you guys just like they're playing those "liberals" you dislike.  Being that you're supposedly "awake" you should realize this by now.

Obama is bought and paid for, and helps to create the loopholes. One example, would be the waivers to Obamacare that he has issued to corporate buddies, massive tax breaks to companies like GE................the list goes on. Obama enjoys an incestuous relationship with corporate entities, across the entire spectrum. He is a man that is incapable of making his own money, and will always depend on his ability to skim money from others.

Romney is a self made millionaire. He made his money in the private sector, and took advantage of the loopholes that were intentionally created by politicians like Obama, as well as others, in both parties. While Romney is happy to take money from corporate donors to run his campaign, I seriously doubt that he feels a personal responsibility to run games from within government to help them out.................other than cleaning up the mess in Washington.

Romney can return to the private sector anytime he wants to, and continue making millions. Obama can't. He has no marketable skills.

Who do you trust?

QuoteRomney is willing to use those loopholes and so is Obama...  That's the point, They're both bought.  Granted, there's less evidence that Obama is willing to use those loopholes, though he sure has allowed for many placed in his healthcare bill , as well as that "credit card reform", so you do the math.

ALL of us use those "loopholes" because they are in the tax law. Some of those "loopholes were placed in the tax law, before we were born, for some entirely different purpose; but they are still there, so anyone who can uses them. Only a Lib would think there is something "bad" about paying as little as you can. If Obozo can dig something useful out of the tax law more power to him. That is completely different from Geithner lying on his tax returns. That's evading taxes, not avoiding them. What do you mean less evidence? How do you know - everything about Obama's prior life is a freaking state secret. You Libtards are attacking Romneys prior life to cover up the fact that you don't know zilch point zero about Obama's prior life. Jesus the other day they were making a big deal about Romney's report card from his freshman year in high school.

Not to mention the fact, that Obama has used his career in politics to enhance his personal fortune, since day one.

Do think that anyone would have purchased fake autobiographies from a leftist street agitator? How about a leftist college professor?

Nope..................wouldn't have happened if he didn't become a senator, and then on to become president.


Romney donated his salary to charity while he was in government. Hmmm.

Quote from: kramarat on August 10, 2012, 10:13:53 AM
Who do you trust?

I dont trust either. Roms approval of the loopholes proves that He's just as bad as those who install them. I dont see him not allowing for loopholes for his rich cohorts either, that is if Romney does try for any real reform if elected.  Dont see that happning though, Obamas not losing to the corporate Mormon.

Either way, Obama and Romney are both bought and not worthy of trust.

Quote from: mdgiles on August 10, 2012, 08:24:06 AM
AVOIDING TAXES IS NOT AGAINST THE LAW YOU DUMB FUCK! There is no rule that says you have to pay more than the absolute minimum that's due. LEARN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TAX AVOIDANCE AND TAX EVASION. Those type of attack ads are aimed at people exactly like you - ignorant. Your exactly like those clowns who were screaming at how bad outsourcing was, when what they really meant was offshoring.

LOL, chill Giles.

Look, it's simple. If insurance companies use loopholes that inevitably screw the  little guy then it's bad, if big business uses loopholes to short the system its bad. Not only having the loopholes is corrupt, but using them, especially in such bulk, certainly is. It's screws the little guy. 

"Son of Boss and its related shelters represented perhaps the largest tax avoidance scheme in history, costing the U.S. many billions in lost corporate tax revenues."

http://www.politicususa.com/brutal-obama-ad-references-romneys-ties-son-boss-tax-scandal.html (http://www.politicususa.com/brutal-obama-ad-references-romneys-ties-son-boss-tax-scandal.html)




"He had an insider's perspective on the motivation and lack of substance in the transaction, as well as the financial sophistication to understand the tax avoidance involved. Romney failed in his duties to Marriott and its shareholders and acted to undermine the fairness of the tax system."


In business some would say it's "agresssive", I say Rom's corrupt and willing to allow more corruption by leaning on the side of corporate interest just like Obama.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 10, 2012, 11:35:52 PM

LOL, chill Giles.

Look, it's simple. If insurance companies use loopholes that inevitably screw the  little guy then it's bad, if big business uses loopholes to short the system its bad. Not only having the loopholes is corrupt, but using them, especially in such bulk, certainly is. It's screws the little guy. 

"Son of Boss and its related shelters represented perhaps the largest tax avoidance scheme in history, costing the U.S. many billions in lost corporate tax revenues."

http://www.politicususa.com/brutal-obama-ad-references-romneys-ties-son-boss-tax-scandal.html (http://www.politicususa.com/brutal-obama-ad-references-romneys-ties-son-boss-tax-scandal.html)




"He had an insider's perspective on the motivation and lack of substance in the transaction, as well as the financial sophistication to understand the tax avoidance involved. Romney failed in his duties to Marriott and its shareholders and acted to undermine the fairness of the tax system."


In business some would say it's "agresssive", I say Rom's corrupt and willing to allow more corruption by leaning on the side of corporate interest just like Obama.

What did he do that was not legal?  Did the IRS drop the ball?  Was he ever audited?  I bet he has been.  Often.  I get a kick out of people who cry about this tax stuff.  It's not like he has ever been charged with anything other than using the existing tax code in his favor.  Just one more reason to get rid of the mess in DC.  You should be complaining about those in Congress and the Ways and Means Committee.  The same one who's chairman didn't pay up complaining that he didn't know the rules.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 10, 2012, 11:35:52 PM

LOL, chill Giles.

Look, it's simple. If insurance companies use loopholes that inevitably screw the  little guy then it's bad, if big business uses loopholes to short the system its bad. Not only having the loopholes is corrupt, but using them, especially in such bulk, certainly is. It's screws the little guy. 

"Son of Boss and its related shelters represented perhaps the largest tax avoidance scheme in history, costing the U.S. many billions in lost corporate tax revenues."

http://www.politicususa.com/brutal-obama-ad-references-romneys-ties-son-boss-tax-scandal.html (http://www.politicususa.com/brutal-obama-ad-references-romneys-ties-son-boss-tax-scandal.html)




"He had an insider's perspective on the motivation and lack of substance in the transaction, as well as the financial sophistication to understand the tax avoidance involved. Romney failed in his duties to Marriott and its shareholders and acted to undermine the fairness of the tax system."


In business some would say it's "agresssive", I say Rom's corrupt and willing to allow more corruption by leaning on the side of corporate interest just like Obama.

That's a funny site. They are talking about Romney not paying taxes on $70 million......................which amounts to 30% of $70 million, which is peanuts. Plus, no laws were broken. If you don't like loopholes, blame the people that write the tax code, not the people that use them.

They should be talking about the $500 million real dollars that Obama gave away to Solyndra, as well as the trillions that he has squandered. Trust me, cracking down on a loophole here and there, is not going to save the country. We have got to get rid of politicians like Obama, that have no concept of the value of money.

Quote from: republicans2 on August 11, 2012, 05:07:54 AM
What did he do that was not legal?  Did the IRS drop the ball?  Was he ever audited?  I bet he has been.  Often.  I get a kick out of people who cry about this tax stuff.  It's not like he has ever been charged with anything other than using the existing tax code in his favor.  Just one more reason to get rid of the mess in DC.  You should be complaining about those in Congress and the Ways and Means Committee.  The same one who's chairman didn't pay up complaining that he didn't know the rules.

Exactly, Obama has the IRS at his disposal, if Romney did anything close to tax evasion that they could document, Mitt's bid would be over, target neutralized.  One mans "loophole" is another mans tax break, and I would bet their isn't anyone here, poster or lurker, who does not readily take every tax break they can.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 10, 2012, 11:35:52 PM

LOL, chill Giles.

Look, it's simple. If insurance companies use loopholes that inevitably screw the  little guy then it's bad, if big business uses loopholes to short the system its bad. Not only having the loopholes is corrupt, but using them, especially in such bulk, certainly is. It's screws the little guy. 

"Son of Boss and its related shelters represented perhaps the largest tax avoidance scheme in history, costing the U.S. many billions in lost corporate tax revenues."

http://www.politicususa.com/brutal-obama-ad-references-romneys-ties-son-boss-tax-scandal.html (http://www.politicususa.com/brutal-obama-ad-references-romneys-ties-son-boss-tax-scandal.html)




"He had an insider's perspective on the motivation and lack of substance in the transaction, as well as the financial sophistication to understand the tax avoidance involved. Romney failed in his duties to Marriott and its shareholders and acted to undermine the fairness of the tax system."


In business some would say it's "agresssive", I say Rom's corrupt and willing to allow more corruption by leaning on the side of corporate interest just like Obama.

Do you even know what you're talking about?
If you own a business, you're over taxed, if you expand your business and take on new employees, your taxes go up, that is anti growth, but if you own a business and buy new equipment, you are taxed for growing, but if you spend money to repair the old equipment you are taxed at the lower rate.
So in stead of buying new equipment, a business might use that "loophole" to void higher taxes.

Now you tell me, who is being corrupt, the business owner for repairing old equipment to avoid higher taxs, or the Govt?
Also which one is punishing the new equipment industry, the business owner for not buying new equipment, or the Govt?

Now do you understand what a loophole is?
The tax laws are extremely convoluted, even contradicting itself from time to time, but if it's in the tax code, then taking advantage of it is smart.
To do otherwise would be a very stupid business owner.

Quote from: Solar on August 11, 2012, 06:37:46 AM
Do you even know what you're talking about?
If you own a business, you're over taxed, if you expand your business and take on new employees, your taxes go up, that is anti growth, but if you own a business and buy new equipment, you are taxed for growing, but if you spend money to repair the old equipment you are taxed at the lower rate.
So in stead of buying new equipment, a business might use that "loophole" to void higher taxes.

Now you tell me, who is being corrupt, the business owner for repairing old equipment to avoid higher taxs, or the Govt?
Also which one is punishing the new equipment industry, the business owner for not buying new equipment, or the Govt?

Now do you understand what a loophole is?
The tax laws are extremely convoluted, even contradicting itself from time to time, but if it's in the tax code, then taking advantage of it is smart.
To do otherwise would be a very stupid business owner.

There's loopholes..............................and then there's just plain old cheating. :blink:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/18/AR2009011802070.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/18/AR2009011802070.html)

Why was this not a problem?

Or this?

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2009/03/obama-appointees-and-democrat-congressman-all-american-tax-cheats/ (http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2009/03/obama-appointees-and-democrat-congressman-all-american-tax-cheats/)

Or this?

http://www.punditreview.com/2009/02/democrat-tax-cheat-champion-charlie-rangel-tops-tom-daschle-and-timothy-geithner-28-2/ (http://www.punditreview.com/2009/02/democrat-tax-cheat-champion-charlie-rangel-tops-tom-daschle-and-timothy-geithner-28-2/)


No wonder we're having problems communicating...........................democrats are too stupid to know the difference between a loophole, and outright cheating. Well, I have to take that back. They're either stupid or dishonest..............take your pick. :rolleyes:

Quote from: kramarat on August 11, 2012, 06:45:58 AM
There's loopholes..............................and then there's just plain old cheating.

"In addition, the Son of Boss transaction was listed by the Internal Revenue Service as an abusive transaction"


"Like other prepackaged corporate tax shelters of that era, Marriott's Son of Boss transaction was an entirely artificial transaction, bearing no relationship to its business. Its sole purpose was to create a gigantic tax loss out of thin air without any economic risk, cost or loss -- other than the fee Marriott paid the promoter."


I think it's a problem when big business is allowed to cheat the system/the people, I dont disagree that we should be upset at those that allow for these type of loopholes, but when people who've "aggressively" used them are trying to run our country it's not a stretch to say they're for big business, rather than the people.


Obama and Romney will allow for corporate rule, there is no difference between them there. It's sad that, even based on that knowledge, most will still vote for either candidate just so the other party doesn't win.  It's what many would call "the definition of insanity."

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 11, 2012, 08:21:21 AM

"In addition, the Son of Boss transaction was listed by the Internal Revenue Service as an abusive transaction"


"Like other prepackaged corporate tax shelters of that era, Marriott's Son of Boss transaction was an entirely artificial transaction, bearing no relationship to its business. Its sole purpose was to create a gigantic tax loss out of thin air without any economic risk, cost or loss -- other than the fee Marriott paid the promoter."


I think it's a problem when big business is allowed to cheat the system/the people, I dont disagree that we should be upset at those that allow for these type of loopholes, but when people who've "aggressively" used them are trying to run our country it's not a stretch to say they're for big business, rather than the people.


Obama and Romney will allow for corporate rule, there is no difference between them there. It's sad that, even based on that knowledge, most will still vote for either candidate just so the other party doesn't win.  It's what many would call "the definition of insanity."

If I can find a legal way to beat the corrupt government out of my tax dollars, I'm going for it. They can call me anything they want.

The good news is, that Paul Ryan, (our new VP in January), has some great ideas on tax reform. :thumbsup:

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/30/the-truth-about-paul-ryans-tax-plan/ (http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/30/the-truth-about-paul-ryans-tax-plan/)

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 10, 2012, 11:35:52 PM

LOL, chill Giles.

I'm sorry, stupidity bothers me. Especially when it's directed at me, which means the person spouting it is has a low opinion of my intelligence. IOW stupidity directed at me is an insult. 

QuoteLook, it's simple. If insurance companies use loopholes that inevitably screw the  little guy then it's bad, if big business uses loopholes to short the system its bad. Not only having the loopholes is corrupt, but using them, especially in such bulk, certainly is. It's screws the little guy.

Every insurance policy states exactly what they cover and what they don't cover. It isn't "screwing the little guy" when you buy a "Yugo" policy and then whine because you not getting "Rolls Royce" coverage.

Quote"Son of Boss and its related shelters represented perhaps the largest tax avoidance scheme in history, costing the U.S. many billions in lost corporate tax revenues."
http://www.politicususa.com/brutal-obama-ad-references-romneys-ties-son-boss-tax-scandal.html (http://www.politicususa.com/brutal-obama-ad-references-romneys-ties-son-boss-tax-scandal.html)

Which part of "tax AVOIDANCE" are you having trouble understanding? IOW, they looked at the law and found a way to pay less. Only Libtards think that it "costs" the government something when they don't take YOUR money.   

Quote"He had an insider's perspective on the motivation and lack of substance in the transaction, as well as the financial sophistication to understand the tax avoidance involved. Romney failed in his duties to Marriott and its shareholders and acted to undermine the fairness of the tax system."

And he should pay more taxes than he has to because?

QuoteIn business some would say it's "agresssive", I say Rom's corrupt and willing to allow more corruption by leaning on the side of corporate interest just like Obama.

IOW, you have the typical Leftoid perspective that ALL our money belongs to the government, and it's somehow unfair when you manage to keep some of it. What bothers me is that you clowns never see the problem with that.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 11, 2012, 08:21:21 AM

"In addition, the Son of Boss transaction was listed by the Internal Revenue Service as an abusive transaction"


"Like other prepackaged corporate tax shelters of that era, Marriott's Son of Boss transaction was an entirely artificial transaction, bearing no relationship to its business. Its sole purpose was to create a gigantic tax loss out of thin air without any economic risk, cost or loss -- other than the fee Marriott paid the promoter."


I think it's a problem when big business is allowed to cheat the system/the people, I dont disagree that we should be upset at those that allow for these type of loopholes, but when people who've "aggressively" used them are trying to run our country it's not a stretch to say they're for big business, rather than the people.


Obama and Romney will allow for corporate rule, there is no difference between them there. It's sad that, even based on that knowledge, most will still vote for either candidate just so the other party doesn't win.  It's what many would call "the definition of insanity."

"In addition, the Son of Boss transaction was listed by the Internal Revenue Service as an abusive transaction" :lol: :lol: :lol: How shocking! :lol: The IRS talking about abuse is like saying the Ayatollah treated women unfairly.

SO FRIGGIN WHAT!!. BOO HOO. I use every legal loophole and deduction I possibly can, not to pay those blood suckers anymore than I absolutely have to. People like Springsteen who declare their huge property holdings farmland and pay a reduced tax burden are taking advantage also. I don't fault anyone who uses the legal tax code to their advantage, but don't berate someone else doing the same. Every rational thinking American in this country pays the least amount the have to. I say every one of these blowhards present their income taxes for review, lets see how many pots are calling the kettle. Romney saved a few million in taxes, out of the hundreds of millions he's paid in over the extent of his tax paying life. Big deal. How many billions has Obama flushed down the tubes with his green cronies. At least Mitt was using his hard earned money, and investors saw a return. OB couldn't make a dime in the private sector. But he sure talks a good game while he does nothing about this so called corporate greed he keeps talking about. All this slime he's  throwing keeps getting all over his shoes. Most people see through this smoke screen thats covering his record. OB has cost this country millions of jobs, many more will follow the destruction of our energy infrastructure. How many have died because of that? More will die as the blackouts worsen, because of the closing of 100's of power plants. Soon the rates will triple, and gasoline will become a luxury few can afford. People better focus on what is important, and stop worrying about Mitt saving a few bucks on legal IRS loop holes. The US has become nothing but a huge dysfunctional corporation, I'd rather a man with a proven track record of turning corporations around was at the helm, instead of a community organizer with zero business skills. You should too.

Quote... you are getting "Rolls Royce" coverage.

Make that NOT getting "Rolls Royce" coverage.

Quote from: mdgiles on August 11, 2012, 11:34:20 AM
Make that NOT getting "Rolls Royce" coverage.

FIFY 

Don't forget you can use the Modify, top right of what you have posted.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 10, 2012, 09:13:45 AM
"Wake up"? Im saying exactly what you're saying-

Romney is willing to use those loopholes and so is Obama...  That's the point, They're both bought.  Granted, there's less evidence that Obama is willing to use those loopholes, though he sure has allowed for many placed in his healthcare bill , as well as that "credit card reform", so you do the math.



They're playing you guys just like they're playing those "liberals" you dislike.  Being that you're supposedly "awake" you should realize this by now.

WOW, you're such a hypocrite, you carry water for Dims talking points in attacking Romney, yet not a word on General Electric CEO Jeffrey Immelt being in bed with Hussein, and GE in particular never paid any taxes last year.
Coincidence? Not on your life!

But when a business follows the rules the IRS setup, suddenly it's a bad thing?

Listen to yourself, you are literally following like a sheep, the Dims release a story that is completely irrelevant and you're all over it like it's proof Romney is some evil corporate entity.
Talk about gullible...

Quote from: Solar on August 11, 2012, 01:29:43 PM
WOW, you're such a hypocrite, you carry water for Dims talking points in attacking Romney, yet not a word on General Electric CEO Jeffrey Immelt being in bed with Hussein, and GE in particular never paid any taxes last year.
Coincidence? Not on your life!

But when a business follows the rules the IRS setup, suddenly it's a bad thing?

Listen to yourself, you are literally following like a sheep, the Dims release a story that is completely irrelevant and you're all over it like it's proof Romney is some evil corporate entity.
Talk about gullible...

Because he wants it to be true. That's why his brain isn't registering the difference between avoidance and evasion.

Quote from: mdgiles on August 11, 2012, 03:46:39 PM
Because he wants it to be true. That's why his brain isn't registering the difference between avoidance and evasion.

Yep, that's the problem with the lib mind, all emotion and no critical thinking skills.

Quote from: Indy on August 11, 2012, 11:24:53 AM
"In addition, the Son of Boss transaction was listed by the Internal Revenue Service as an abusive transaction" :lol: :lol: :lol: How shocking! :lol: The IRS talking about abuse is like saying the Ayatollah treated women unfairly.

SO FRIGGIN WHAT!!. BOO HOO. I use every legal loophole and deduction I possibly can, not to pay those blood suckers anymore than I absolutely have to.

If an individual poses "an entirely artificial transaction" to pay little to nothing in taxes it would be a big deal, but a corporation does it and its considered a legal loophole. Same with insurance companies and Obama care, we the people do half the BS allowed to those big money corporations and we'd be brought up on fraud charges.

The point is, we have rules that we have to follow at our level, at theirs,  the rules bend a lot easier. Sure, people still look for ways to pay less, but not everyone can get away with a "bailout".

Romney is a corporate owned shill, so is Obama. I dont see why that's so difficult for some to see. Unless, of course, they just want someone to get the current corporate guy out of office.

Quote from: Solar on August 11, 2012, 01:29:43 PM
WOW, you're such a hypocrite, you carry water for Dims talking points in attacking Romney, yet not a word on General Electric CEO Jeffrey Immelt being in bed with Hussein, and GE in particular never paid any taxes last year.
Coincidence? Not on your life!

I figure, based on yalls perception of Obama, that little is needed to sway in regards to his douchehood... But "Romneyhood", on the other hand, is still a subject worthy of speaking on.. Being that you guys seem to be allowing him more credit than he's worth.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 11, 2012, 10:51:06 PM

I figure, based on yalls perception of Obama, that little is needed to sway in regards to his douchehood... But "Romneyhood", on the other hand, is still a subject worthy of speaking on.. Being that you guys seem to be allowing him more credit than he's worth.

It comes down to that old street saying, " Don't hate the player, hate the game."

Nobody's saying that it's a good thing to have these giant loopholes in the tax code. But if it's within the law to use them, who are we to judge the people that do? I can't..................because I know damned well, that if it was legal, I would do the same thing.

As a matter of fact, Romney's familiarity with these loopholes, puts him in a unique position to be able to close them.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 11, 2012, 10:51:06 PM

I figure, based on yalls perception of Obama, that little is needed to sway in regards to his douchehood... But "Romneyhood", on the other hand, is still a subject worthy of speaking on.. Being that you guys seem to be allowing him more credit than he's worth.

Why are you such a tool, what is it that allows you to be so easily used by the Marxists in the Dim party?
You never seem to see both sides of the same coin, Romney uses loopholes, I use loopholes, anyone with half a brain uses loopholes, because were being overtaxed, the left gives our money to illegals for schools, SSI, etc and you don't seem to have an issue with that, but when people try and keep a small portion of their hard earned money, your emotional center is activated with the flip of a switch by the Dim leaders.
The left throws out a campaign hit piece and like Pavlovs dogs, you start drooling, but did you ever stop and use critical thinking for one second before you started drooling?

Your Messiah in chief did the very same thing during the very same period as Romney, he used loopholes to keep from paying taxes.

Quote
    President Obama and his wife, Michele, gave a total of $48,000 in tax-free gifts to their daughters, according to tax records made public on Friday.

    The president and his wife separately gave each daughter a $12,000 gift under a section of the federal tax code that exempts such donations from federal taxes.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/president_obama_complete_return_2011.pdf (http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/president_obama_complete_return_2011.pdf)

Now will you quit being such a tool of the Marxists and start using critical thinking instead of reacting on an emotional level?
This is why we look at you people in amazement, it's hard to believe people can be soo damned ignorant.

Remember that term, "Critical Thinking" so the next time a hit piece comes out, ask yourself, what is the real truth instead of simply commencing drooling.

Quote from: Solar on August 12, 2012, 06:38:10 AM
Why are you such a tool, what is it that allows you to be so easily used by the Marxists in the Dim party?
You never seem to see both sides of the same coin, Romney uses loopholes, I use loopholes, anyone with half a brain uses loopholes, because were being overtaxed, the left gives our money to illegals for schools, SSI, etc and you don't seem to have an issue with that, but when people try and keep a small portion of their hard earned money, your emotional center is activated with the flip of a switch by the Dim leaders.
The left throws out a campaign hit piece and like Pavlovs dogs, you start drooling, but did you ever stop and use critical thinking for one second before you started drooling?

Your Messiah in chief did the very same thing during the very same period as Romney, he used loopholes to keep from paying taxes.
Now will you quit being such a tool of the Marxists and start using critical thinking instead of reacting on an emotional level?
This is why we look at you people in amazement, it's hard to believe people can be soo damned ignorant.

Remember that term, "Critical Thinking" so the next time a hit piece comes out, ask yourself, what is the real truth instead of simply commencing drooling.

Remember when Clinton was claiming deductions for his old nasty socks and underwear? :blink:

Quote from: kramarat on August 12, 2012, 06:43:51 AM
Remember when Clinton was claiming deductions for his old nasty socks and underwear? :blink:

Perfect example!
It's why kids are such tools of the left, they don't ask questions, they have no reference in history to measure against, and they are quick to react emotionally to something everyone does without malice, it's why we have tax codes.

Like tax codes, we also have speed limits, go over the limit and you're breaking the law, stay right on the limit and you are fine.
That is, unless you are an enemy of the left, then you are evil for going the speed limit. :huh:
For example, leaving the freeway, the sign reads in bright yellow at the turn, "Slow 25 mph" but you do 45 around the turn, to a lib you are breaking the law, because they don't understand it, but the yellow sign is merely a warning suggestion, not a limit.
But in the libs mind you are evil and must be punished.

Seriously, these people never once stop and think before reacting emotionally, which is also why one day they will grow up and become conservatives, it's almost inevitable, especially when they look back and see just how big of fools they were, and tools of communists.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 11, 2012, 10:47:28 PM


If an individual poses "an entirely artificial transaction" to pay little to nothing in taxes it would be a big deal, but a corporation does it and its considered a legal loophole. Same with insurance companies and Obama care, we the people do half the BS allowed to those big money corporations and we'd be brought up on fraud charges.

The point is, we have rules that we have to follow at our level, at theirs,  the rules bend a lot easier. Sure, people still look for ways to pay less, but not everyone can get away with a "bailout".

Romney is a corporate owned shill, so is Obama. I dont see why that's so difficult for some to see. Unless, of course, they just want someone to get the current corporate guy out of office.

Th IRS goes after you not because it's illegal but because the small taxpayers don't have an army of lawyers to tear them a new asshole in Tax Court. It's not that the "big" guy is doing anything illegal, it's that government bureaucracies know better than to try and brow beat them, a tactic that works with the "little" guy. The rules are the same for everyone. Some people just know what they are, whereas some people spend time whining about how unfair it all is. Now as for the difference between Romney and Obama, Romney went out and made his money as opposed to just appropriating yours. If you didn't spend so much time being envious of the fact that he has money, you'd notice the difference.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 11, 2012, 10:51:06 PM

I figure, based on yalls perception of Obama, that little is needed to sway in regards to his douchehood... But "Romneyhood", on the other hand, is still a subject worthy of speaking on.. Being that you guys seem to be allowing him more credit than he's worth.

But you never notice what's wrong with the very basis of your mindset. The idea that keeping your own money as opposed to sending it to some bureaucrat to waste - is somehow "criminal". The nerve of him, holding on to his money and not sending it to Washington so the government can use it to pay for stuff you want.

For myself, I'm more concerned about how Obamacare, if fully implemented will ravage my tax return than I am concerned about what is, or isn't in Mitt Romney's tax returns.

Just sayin'...

-Dr Watt

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 11, 2012, 10:51:06 PM

I figure, based on yalls perception of Obama, that little is needed to sway in regards to his douchehood... But "Romneyhood", on the other hand, is still a subject worthy of speaking on.. Being that you guys seem to be allowing him more credit than he's worth.

All I want is to get rid of this destructive president. To allow him another four years of executive privilege would be criminal. Right now Fudd, I'd vote for you if you were running. Is Romney my choice, no, but if he has even a slight chance to stop this wrecking ball administration, he's the only logical choice. If it were up to me, I would have someone like Mark Levine as president. Read his book, Liberty and Tyranny, he doesn't cut any slack to either party for the destruction of constitutional governance. The RINO's have just been doing it slower. It saddens me to know that we fought a war for freedom and independence over some of the very same things we see happening now.

Quote from: kramarat on August 12, 2012, 04:18:45 AM
It comes down to that old street saying, " Don't hate the player, hate the game."

I cant bring myself to like a guy that allows for corporate interest over the peoples needs.

Quote from: kramarat on August 12, 2012, 04:18:45 AM
Nobody's saying that it's a good thing to have these giant loopholes in the tax code.

Im glad we can all agree.

A step further. Someone that believes a person who is willing to play the corrupt game will simply stop being corrupt , when given even more power, is being very naive.

Obama and Rom are far more similar than many seem want to see.   :sad:

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 12, 2012, 11:17:13 PM

I cant bring myself to like a guy that allows for corporate interest over the peoples needs.



Im glad we can all agree.

A step further. Someone that believes a person who is willing to play the corrupt game will simply stop being corrupt , when given even more power, is being very naive.

Obama and Rom are far more similar than many seem want to see.   :sad:

The corporate interest over the people's needs? How can you possibly sit at the computer and engage in these petty arguments?

Someone is hurting. Someone needs your help. An old lady is having a hard time breathing, or maybe she needs her dog walked.............................and you just sit at the computer and ignore their screams for help. I can hear them. Can you?

A little girl has cancer......................and you sit at your computer and pretend she doesn't exist.

Yeah. I understand the left. :wink:

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 12, 2012, 11:17:13 PM

I cant bring myself to like a guy that allows for corporate interest over the peoples needs.



Im glad we can all agree.

A step further. Someone that believes a person who is willing to play the corrupt game will simply stop being corrupt , when given even more power, is being very naive.

Obama and Rom are far more similar than many seem want to see.   :sad:

I'm curious, why do you place so much morality on an inanimate issue such as taxes?
Govt  doesn't care about your feelings one tiny bit.

If I can find a way to keep even one penny of my own hard earned money, you bet I'm keeping it, as long as it's legal, I'm in the right and the IRS can take a flying leap for even suggesting I'm stretching the laws.
If I actually did something wrong, you can bet they are going to squeeze me dry for every cent I have.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 12, 2012, 11:17:13 PM

I cant bring myself to like a guy that allows for corporate interest over the peoples needs.

What are corporations other than people.

Saying "corporations" are nothing but rich fat cats is a stupid and naive as saying an army is nothing but generals.

QuoteA step further. Someone that believes a person who is willing to play the corrupt game will simply stop being corrupt , when given even more power, is being very naive.

Obama and Rom are far more similar than many seem want to see.   :sad:

Saying the "game" corporations play is corrupt is no more valid than saying all forms of baseball are corrupt because of the recent scandals about steroids.

Corporations, both large and small are what generate the wealth of this country and what enables us ordinary people to enjoy a standard of living which is the envy of the world.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

-Dr Watt

Quote from: Dr_Watt on August 13, 2012, 06:14:18 AM
What are corporations other than people.

A corporation is an entity created by people for the sake of profit, it, in many ways, even puts its self above national interest (even world interest for that matter) . Corporations facilitate greed above all else.

People are like this as well, but, IMO, the individual is capable of a soul, a corporation is not.

Quote from: Dr_Watt on August 13, 2012, 06:14:18 AM
Saying the "game" corporations play is corrupt is no more valid than saying all forms of baseball are corrupt because of the recent scandals about steroids.

Corporations, both large and small are what generate the wealth of this country and what enables us ordinary people to enjoy a standard of living which is the envy of the world.

I disagree with your analogy. Now if the powers that be in baseball allowed  for corrupt players pending on the amount given to them then it would be the same, but that's not the case, well, not openly anyway.

The political field is corrupted by the ability to buy our representation. When big money can call the shots because those we elect are allowed to collect then the little guy, those that arent in charge of big money, get the shaft. This is the reason we've been stolen from i.e. "to big to fail", etc.

Quote from: Dr_Watt on August 13, 2012, 06:14:18 AM
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

And I'd never dream of throwing the baby out, however, I do still believe in groundings and time outs.  :thumbup:

Quote from: kramarat on August 13, 2012, 04:34:36 AM
The corporate interest over the people's needs? How can you possibly sit at the computer and engage in these petty arguments?

I work many hours trying to help those in need.. I set at a computer, for venting, and discussion, when I have a tad bit of free time. I also go to school to further my medical knowledge.

These arguments aren't "petty" . IMO, we pay the people that care for us in our times of real need pennies in comparison to whats taken by many corporations, and big businesses. So I certainly disagree that this argument is petty, if anything it's a much needed come to Jesus that our nation should've had decades ago.

Those that run up the stairs when others are in fear running down, those that fight for you and yours, be it life, liberty, or the pursuit of your happiness, they should be treated a lot better, they deserve much more than what they get. Just my opinion though.




You know, Rat.. Ive seen you say things like, how do you sit at your computer so much, in a few different conversations now. Arent you setting at your computer in these conversations as well?
How can you set at your computer while Im setting at my computer, and tell me that I shouldn't be setting at my computer while you set at your computer? It's as if you have a problem setting at your computer. Or maybe you just have an issue with others at their computer because you set so much at your computer? Hmmm, maybe its the computer who sets to much and we're just tools of the computer itself? Or You are the computer and Im a computer and we're merely discussing something through a link or extension of ourselves? Damn, to deep for me homie.  :confused:

Quote from: Solar on August 13, 2012, 05:39:54 AM
Govt  doesn't care about your feelings one tiny bit.

Govt being ran by people who gladly create and use loopholes to undercut the little guy, and those that work to help the little guy, is a large problem.
If you know that Govt, something that is supposed to be for the people, by the people, "doesn't care about your feelings one tiny bit", then there's a problem.
Facilitating the greedy nature of those that demand more before others is what got us here in the first place. The "greed is good" mentality is what led us astray, now we have to uproot it from our Govt.  The individual will be greedy, yes, but we have to try and keep the monsters they create in check, or we will sadly ALL be devoured.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 13, 2012, 12:51:38 PM


Govt being ran by people who gladly create and use loopholes to undercut the little guy, and those that work to help the little guy, is a large problem.
If you know that Govt, something that is supposed to be for the people, by the people, "doesn't care about your feelings one tiny bit", then there's a problem.
Facilitating the greedy nature of those that demand more before others is what got us here in the first place. The "greed is good" mentality is what led us astray, now we have to uproot it from our Govt.  The individual will be greedy, yes, but we have to try and keep the monsters they create in check, or we will sadly ALL be devoured.

You are clueless...

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 13, 2012, 12:51:38 PM


Govt being ran by people who gladly create and use loopholes to undercut the little guy, and those that work to help the little guy, is a large problem.
If you know that Govt, something that is supposed to be for the people, by the people, "doesn't care about your feelings one tiny bit", then there's a problem.
Facilitating the greedy nature of those that demand more before others is what got us here in the first place. The "greed is good" mentality is what led us astray, now we have to uproot it from our Govt.  The individual will be greedy, yes, but we have to try and keep the monsters they create in check, or we will sadly ALL be devoured.

The best thing you can possibly do, to start undoing this mess, is to vote a Romney/ Ryan ticket, and get true conservatives in office, in your local elections. Yes, government writes in the loopholes. Government is behind just about every mess we are facing. Honest conservatives are our only chance.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 10, 2012, 09:13:45 AM
"Wake up"? Im saying exactly what you're saying-

Romney is willing to use those loopholes and so is Obama...  That's the point, They're both bought.  Granted, there's less evidence that Obama is willing to use those loopholes, though he sure has allowed for many placed in his healthcare bill , as well as that "credit card reform", so you do the math.

Loopholes, no...FRAUD YES:

The "buffer zone" parcel at the Obama family mansion in Chicago's upscale Kenwood neighborhood purchased by the wife of convicted felon Tony Rezko was transferred to Barack and Michelle Obama without ever being assessed or taxed, in apparent violation of Illinois law, according to a debt-collection expert.

"The Cook County assessor's office told me that there is no record of any tax assessment having been done on this transfer of the buffer zone property into a Northern Trust Co. Deed in Trust," Albert Hendershot told WND.

Hendershot, president and owner of Innovative Portfolio Recovery Inc, a debt collection and skip tracing company based in Birmingham, Ala., noted the buffer zone "does not have an address attached to it, which is probably how the assessment and tax were avoided."

"Even if the transaction were considered absorbing the buffer zone into the larger property that the Obamas bought," Hendershot said, "that would have constituted two separate transactions for the same parcel – the transfer to the Obamas and the absorption of the buffer into the larger property – without a proper tax assessment being completed on the property in question."

What is the problem?

"It has the look of real estate and tax fraud," Henderson answered. "If a property is transferred without a tax assessment being completed and without taxes being paid on the property, my professional background causes me to be suspicious a crime may have been committed."

http://www.wnd.com/2011/08/332929/ (http://www.wnd.com/2011/08/332929/)

Quote from: kramarat on August 13, 2012, 01:45:10 PM
The best thing you can possibly do, to start undoing this mess, is to vote a Romney/ Ryan ticket, and get true conservatives in office, in your local elections. Yes, government writes in the loopholes. Government is behind just about every mess we are facing. Honest conservatives are our only chance.

I disagree. Just because Your "hoping" the RomRyan ticket will bring "change" doesn't mean it's going to happen. It reads a lot like those Dems, "hoping" their sides corporate candidates will bring "hope and change". It's not going to happen with these guys, especially in this current system.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 13, 2012, 04:37:05 PM

I disagree. Just because Your "hoping" the RomRyan ticket will bring "change" doesn't mean it's going to happen. It reads a lot like those Dems, "hoping" their sides corporate candidates will bring "hope and change". It's not going to happen with these guys, especially in this current system.

And if they do make changes for the better, will you vote (R) next time around?

Quote from: Solar on August 13, 2012, 04:53:08 PM
And if they do make changes for the better, will you vote (R) next time around?

If the Republicans do not bend to corporate rule again, I dont see why I wouldn't vote for some of them. Tough wading through all the overly religious ones, But I dont see that happening anyway. I also dont think they'll win this election. Obama also seems to be treated as a god in the eyes of many of his followers.  Eh, religion and politics, just don't go together.


I also have trouble with the less government argument, and republicans tend to preach that, I worry that in a world based on profit without some dictation of funds to those in need, they'll be lots of people screwed over. But it's not like that's not happening now, under Dem rule, so I guess not much will really change there. 

I'd really feel better if the argument would change from "less government" to "less money controlling our government".  Just my opinion though.

 

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 13, 2012, 12:18:45 PM

A corporation is an entity created by people for the sake of profit, it, in many ways, even puts its self above national interest

When one considers that the U.S. has the highest corporate tax rate of all industrialized nations, should this really be that surprising?

Quote(even world interest for that matter) .

Oy, vey! What collectivist nonsense!  :rolleyes:

QuoteCorporations facilitate greed above all else.

Since all labor unions are incorporated (means they, too, are corporations) that must mean that the main purpose of labor unions is to facilitate greed.

Hmmm... you make a pretty good case there!

QuotePeople are like this as well, but, IMO, the individual is capable of a soul, a corporation is not.

The existence of a "soul" can neither be proved nor disproved. That being the case, there is just as much evidence that a corporation has a soul as there is that it doesn't.

Your "opinion" is a irrelevant as it is baseless.

QuoteI disagree with your analogy. Now if the powers that be in baseball allowed  for corrupt players pending on the amount given to them then it would be the same, but that's not the case, well, not openly anyway.

The political field is corrupted by the ability to buy our representation. When big money can call the shots because those we elect are allowed to collect then the little guy, those that arent in charge of big money, get the shaft. This is the reason we've been stolen from i.e. "to big to fail", etc.

And I'd never dream of throwing the baby out, however, I do still believe in groundings and time outs.  :thumbup:

Consider this...

If government did not have the power to pick financial winners and loser via through extra-constitutional regulatory powers, assumed by itself, for itself, there would be no reason for so-called big money to "buy" representatives!

It is the power the government has over the success or failure of businesses which make it a prime target for corruption. If the Federal Government limited itself to the size and powers dictated to it by the Constitution there would be no such thing as "too big to fail".

-Dr Watt

Quote from: Dr_Watt on August 13, 2012, 05:44:55 PM
When one considers that the U.S. has the highest corporate tax rate of all industrialized nations, should this really be that surprising?

Im not surprised, only confused as to why we allow corporations authority over our government, but now I see why they still allow for the mirage of a "highest corporate tax rate".

Quote from: Dr_Watt on August 13, 2012, 05:44:55 PM
If government did not have the power to pick financial winners and loser via through extra-constitutional regulatory powers, assumed by itself, for itself, there would be no reason for so-called big money to "buy" representatives!

It is the power the government has over the success or failure of businesses which make it a prime target for corruption. If the Federal Government limited itself to the size and powers dictated to it by the Constitution there would be no such thing as "too big to fail".

Ok, but consider this, we limit government allowing for less people to be bought off, in that scenario we are still overrun by corruption only it's not as costly on the corporations that are doing the buying. 

If the federal government, under the current standing, limited itself to size and powers then to big to fail would be less costly on the big and those that fail could be much greater in numbers.

Quote from: Dr_Watt on August 13, 2012, 05:44:55 PM
The existence of a "soul" can neither be proved nor disproved. That being the case, there is just as much evidence that a corporation has a soul as there is that it doesn't.

Your "opinion" is a irrelevant as it is baseless.

The existence of a "possible soul" to describe an individuals ability for compassion over profit was the desired effect which is very relevant, unless you're arguing that corporate compassion far exceeds that of the individual, then we'd just have to agree to disagree.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 13, 2012, 06:34:45 PM


The existence of a "possible soul" to describe an individuals ability for compassion over profit was the desired effect which is very relevant, unless you're arguing that corporate compassion far exceeds that of the individual, then we'd just have to agree to disagree.

Problem is, the Liberal ideal of big government espouses the distribution of largesse from the treasury rather than voluntarily from the purses and and wallets of Jane and John Q. Citizen....It renders your individual "souless" since individual compassion is unnecessary....Uncle Sam will take care of all our needs.

Quote from: bluelieu on August 13, 2012, 09:47:04 PM
Problem is, the Liberal ideal of big government espouses the distribution of largesse from the treasury rather than voluntarily from the purses and and wallets of Jane and John Q. Citizen....It renders your individual "souless" since individual compassion is unnecessary....Uncle Sam will take care of all our needs.

The billions of dollars given to big business wasn't initiated by liberals, but rather "conservatives".
The government is supposed to be made up by the people, for the people, It doesn't render the individual "souless", quite the contrary actually , it's supposed to be a representative of the people and allow for the protection of our rights. That's why I do not like the purchasing of that entity, especially by profit mongering corporations.

I totally disagree with your comment concerning  government and the soul of the individual...Show me the random acts of kindness indicative of such in nations enthralled by massive government....the USSR, PRC, PRK...the bigger government gets the LESS your rights are protected, the MORE they are infringed upon. 

As far as Libs backing the corporate horse, please explain GE to me! Jeff Immelt sits on Obama's advisory board so his corporation is forgiven millions upon millions in taxes?  As far as buying influence, explain such entities as the TEA, SEIU, the UAW.  You see, if corporations aren't people, neither are labor unions.  The UAW was gifted in the GM bailout at the expense of people who invested in GM...they got shafted, the PEOPLE who made up the corporation...individual investors as well as pension plans which invested were thrown to the wolves to save the UAW....Tell the non-union members of Delphi who saw their pension destroyed while the UAW was bolstered how Libs are fair.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 14, 2012, 05:17:09 PM

The billions of dollars given to big business wasn't initiated by liberals, but rather "conservatives".
The government is supposed to be made up by the people, for the people, It doesn't render the individual "souless", quite the contrary actually , it's supposed to be a representative of the people and allow for the protection of our rights. That's why I do not like the purchasing of that entity, especially by profit mongering corporations.

Unless the government is purchasing something from a corporation, it doesn't "give" billions of dollars to corporations. What it does, it, in some instances, is to allow corporations to keep the money they've earned.

Government has no money of its own. It can only get money by confiscating it from others.

-Dr Wayy

Quote from: bluelieu on August 14, 2012, 06:34:09 PM
I totally disagree with your comment concerning  government and the soul of the individual...Show me the random acts of kindness indicative of such in nations enthralled by massive government

It's not supposed to be "random acts of kindness", it's supposed to be by the people for the people, not for random people, or random corporations.

Government has protected our freedoms, it now being bought by the deepest pocket, openly, is a crime against the people, and the freedoms it's supposed to uphold.

Quote from: bluelieu on August 14, 2012, 06:34:09 PM
As far as Libs backing the corporate horse, please explain GE to me!

Im not saying either side is more or less corrupt then the other.  They're both allowing money direct their actions.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 14, 2012, 06:59:22 PM

It's not supposed to be "random acts of kindness", it's supposed to be by the people for the people, not for random people, or random corporations.

Government has protected our freedoms, it now being bought by the deepest pocket, openly, is a crime against the people, and the freedoms it's supposed to uphold.

What has Lincoln' Gettysburg address have to do with corporations?
Do you even have a clue what it means to incorporate? It is a protection from Govt and personal liabilities, so that the Govt and people can't take your home and personal property.
You're under the illusion that it is some sinister evil soulless entity that lives in a 3rd dimension, when in reality it's nothing more than a way of doing business and protecting your assets from seizure in it's simplest of form.

Corporations have to lobby govt to protect it's assets, sadly it's part of being in a Capitalist society.
Care top venture into what the alternative might be?

I agree that politicians have figured out a way to extort from business, but it's not the business fault for wanting to stay viable and protect it's own interests as well as it's employees.

QuoteIm not saying either side is more or less corrupt then the other.  They're both allowing money direct their actions.

Which is why you should be supporting the Tea party.

Quote from: Solar on August 14, 2012, 07:22:52 PM
I agree that politicians have figured out a way to extort from business, but it's not the business fault for wanting to stay viable and protect it's own interests as well as it's employees.

It's businesses extorting from the people through politicians that are extorting businesses. In the end, the majority are being screwed. 

Our government is not something that an "evil third dimension entity" is controlling, but rather the reality is money, under the guise of 'protecting themselves', is, and has been,  robbing from the majority and sadly, we're allowing it to happen.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 14, 2012, 07:41:23 PM
It's businesses extorting from the people through politicians that are extorting businesses. In the end, the majority are being screwed. 

Our government is not something that an "evil third dimension entity" is controlling, but rather the reality is money, under the guise of 'protecting themselves', is, and has been,  robbing from the majority and sadly, we're allowing it to happen.

Your animus should be directed at the Govt not business.

Quote from: Solar on August 14, 2012, 07:22:52 PM
What has Lincoln' Gettysburg address have to do with corporations?
Do you even have a clue what it means to incorporate? It is a protection from Govt and personal liabilities, so that the Govt and people can't take your home and personal property.
You're under the illusion that it is some sinister evil soulless entity that lives in a 3rd dimension, when in reality it's nothing more than a way of doing business and protecting your assets from seizure in it's simplest of form.

Corporations have to lobby govt to protect it's assets, sadly it's part of being in a Capitalist society.
Care top venture into what the alternative might be?

I agree that politicians have figured out a way to extort from business, but it's not the business fault for wanting to stay viable and protect it's own interests as well as it's employees.

Which is why you should be supporting the Tea party.

Naw, he's for more taxation and government growth and control.

Quote from: Indy on August 14, 2012, 07:59:55 PM
Naw, he's for more taxation and government growth and control.

Yep!
If he could see that less restrictions on business, and more on Govt, he might get it, but he has nothing to measure against, that comes with age.

Quote from: Solar on August 14, 2012, 08:09:44 PM
Yep!
If he could see that less restrictions on business, and more on Govt, he might get it, but he has nothing to measure against, that comes with age.

Thus far, in our time, we've seen our hard earned money go to big businesses that are "to big to fail", they've taken far more from us, through businesses and paid off representatives, then many seem to want to realize. 

Im not for more taxation, Im for people control, and better spending of the peoples taxes. Im certainly not for money control that gives away to those that pad pockets.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 14, 2012, 09:25:17 PM

Thus far, in our time, we've seen our hard earned money go to big businesses that are "to big to fail", they've taken far more from us, through businesses and paid off representatives, then many seem to want to realize. 

Im not for more taxation, Im for people control, and better spending of the peoples taxes. Im certainly not for money control that gives away to those that pad pockets.

No more bailouts. No more company building, like Solyndra.

The government should fund research on new technologies that show promise, and enforce common sense regulations on corporate America.

Most people aren't aware that the government created the artificial housing bubble, and are solely responsible for our current economic mess. Not the corporations.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 14, 2012, 09:25:17 PM

Thus far, in our time, we've seen our hard earned money go to big businesses that are "to big to fail", they've taken far more from us, through businesses and paid off representatives, then many seem to want to realize. 

Im not for more taxation, Im for people control, and better spending of the peoples taxes. Im certainly not for money control that gives away to those that pad pockets.

When Bush backed TARP, that was the last straw, that is the reason the Tea party started.
Govt does not have the right to pick and choose winners and losers, no business is too big to fail.
Had Fannie and Freddie been left to their own devices, the mkt. would have sorted itself out, that's the beauty of the free mkt. but the Dims changed the rules way back and it's obit had been written in stone.

You see, it's not business that is the problem, it will always operate to it's fullest under the restrictions govt sets, but it was Govt that had forced private industry to take on bad business practices that set the ball in motion, the end was inevitable, so bailing them out was their logical conclusion, considering the govt was to blame in the first place (and it was the Dims that caused it).

Point is, Govt needs to stay the fuck out of private industry and let the free mkt function, it will always take the path of least resistance.
So if you agree, you are inline with Tea party values.

Quote from: Solar on August 15, 2012, 06:10:38 AM
When Bush backed TARP, that was the last straw, that is the reason the Tea party started.
Govt does not have the right to pick and choose winners and losers, no business is too big to fail.
Had Fannie and Freddie been left to their own devices, the mkt. would have sorted itself out, that's the beauty of the free mkt. but the Dims changed the rules way back and it's obit had been written in stone.

You see, it's not business that is the problem, it will always operate to it's fullest under the restrictions govt sets, but it was Govt that had forced private industry to take on bad business practices that set the ball in motion, the end was inevitable, so bailing them out was their logical conclusion, considering the govt was to blame in the first place (and it was the Dims that caused it).

Point is, Govt needs to stay the fuck out of private industry and let the free mkt function, it will always take the path of least resistance.
So if you agree, you are inline with Tea party values.

The left is coming out with the same old tired talking points...........................
Romney and the right want to throw all regulation out the window. Let the banks and corporations do whatever they want, pollute all of our rivers and streams, throw away environmental regulations. It's such utter bullshit. Nobody wants to eliminate government. They've got an important role to play................................we just want them to get back to it. :mad:

Quote from: kramarat on August 15, 2012, 06:22:54 AM
The left is coming out with the same old tired talking points...........................
Romney and the right want to throw all regulation out the window. Let the banks and corporations do whatever they want, pollute all of our rivers and streams, throw away environmental regulations. It's such utter bullshit. Nobody wants to eliminate government. They've got an important role to play................................we just want them to get back to it. :mad:

Yep, idiot libs think the Tea party is out to do away with Govt, but we like a functioning Govt, just not one that dictates, but rather sets itself up as a guideline for business to function within.

Quote from: kramarat on August 15, 2012, 06:22:54 AM
The left is coming out with the same old tired talking points...........................
Romney and the right want to throw all regulation out the window. Let the banks and corporations do whatever they want, pollute all of our rivers and streams, throw away environmental regulations. It's such utter bullshit. Nobody wants to eliminate government. They've got an important role to play................................we just want them to get back to it. :mad:

Why does the left always act as if business owners commute from another planet, so it doesn't matter if they pollute this one. like they are breathing the same air and drinking the same water! it's such a stupid attitude. And yes they do want to get rid of a lot of regulations - which often only exist because some bureaucrat somewhere had to justify his/her existence by writing a regulation. This country is being strangled because some pogie somewhere needed some busy work. The truth of the matter is, that without government putting it's thumb on the scales, many corrupt business practices wouldn't exist.

Quote from: mdgiles on August 15, 2012, 08:01:30 AM
Why does the left always act as if business owners commute from another planet, so it doesn't matter if they pollute this one. like they are breathing the same air and drinking the same water! it's such a stupid attitude. And yes they do want to get rid of a lot of regulations - which often only exist because some bureaucrat somewhere had to justify his/her existence by writing a regulation. This country is being strangled because some pogie somewhere needed some busy work. The truth of the matter is, that without government putting it's thumb on the scales, many corrupt business practices wouldn't exist.

Exactly Giles, Co2 is a perfect example of idiocy, yet Hussein used it like a weapon at gunpoint to force his leftist agenda of controlling our energy infrastructure.
They wrote legislation dictating that we pay through the nose for our energy, in turn bankrupting the country.

It had absolutely nothing to do with cleaner air and everyone knew it.

So You guys are basically saying that the government created bad business? Ok, but I believe bad business corrupted our government as well.  Our government does need to regulate, it needs to do it's job. However, I cant let the companies go without blame either. They've been far to greedy for far to long, creating bubbles here and there that collapse and leave the consumer holding the bag. Both the government and the companies are to blame.

I don't disagree that government is corrupt, I just see the corruption in big business as well. And It seems you guys do too.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 15, 2012, 06:01:08 PM
So You guys are basically saying that the government created bad business? Ok, but I believe bad business corrupted our government as well.  Our government does need to regulate, it needs to do it's job. However, I cant let the companies go without blame either. They've been far to greedy for far to long, creating bubbles here and there that collapse and leave the consumer holding the bag. Both the government and the companies are to blame.

I don't disagree that government is corrupt, I just see the corruption in big business as well. And It seems you guys do too.

Wrong.  Government controls the money, power, and laws.  The only way corruption occurs is if government allows it.

Quote from: taxed on August 15, 2012, 06:07:37 PM
Wrong.  Government controls the money, power, and laws.  The only way corruption occurs is if government allows it.

Big money dictates government, thus the supreme court ruling, and the need for huge contributions. Corruption most certainly occurs when the collusion of government and big business undermines the will of the people.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 15, 2012, 08:38:13 PM

Big money dictates government, thus the supreme court ruling, and the need for huge contributions. Corruption most certainly occurs when the collusion of government and big business undermines the will of the people.

Wrong. Government dictates who keeps what money, and decides who to be incestuous with.

Quote from: taxed on August 15, 2012, 08:42:45 PM
Wrong. Government dictates who keeps what money, and decides who to be incestuous with.

I disagree. Money decides who stays in government. The incest then "trickles down". 

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 15, 2012, 09:13:38 PM
I disagree. Money decides who stays in government. The incest then "trickles down".

Who sets the finance laws?

Quote from: taxed on August 15, 2012, 09:18:29 PM
Who sets the finance laws?

Who buys the people that do?




Taxi, it seems that Youre so determined to tell me Im wrong that you fail to see (or admit to) the similarity in our stance. Government and big business are stealing from the people.  It's that simple, and very disheartening.

I feel bad because many people are still being played by politicians that are using their "hopes" as a means to fill their own pockets. A real peoples representative will never make it to the show, at present, because money buys the seat, and sadly, the people are to segregated to do what needs be done. We, IMO, need to stand united, against a rigged system and corruption, no matter where it begins. 

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 15, 2012, 09:25:08 PM
Who buys the people that do?




Taxi, it seems that Youre so determined to tell me Im wrong that you fail to see (or admit to) the similarity in our stance. Government and big business are stealing from the people.  It's that simple, and very disheartening.

I feel bad because many people are still being played by politicians that are using their "hopes" as a means to fill their own pockets. A real peoples representative will never make it to the show, at present, because money buys the seat, and sadly, the people are to segregated to do what needs be done. We, IMO, need to stand united, against a rigged system and corruption, no matter where it begins.

Wrong.  The government makes the laws, enforces the laws, controls the military, prints money, and on and on.  You don't seem willing to concede that the government makes the finance laws. Your point to say business buys the politicians to make the laws still falls back on government, because it wouldn't be an issue if the government told the payer "No".  The only reason we have corruption is because a government politician says "Ok.  I'll do it."

Quote from: taxed on August 15, 2012, 09:30:30 PM
Wrong.  The government makes the laws, enforces the laws, controls the military, prints money, and on and on.  You don't seem willing to concede that the government makes the finance laws. Your point to say business buys the politicians to make the laws still falls back on government, because it wouldn't be an issue if the government told the payer "No".  The only reason we have corruption is because a government politician says "Ok.  I'll do it."

The government is ran by elected officials that require "money" to get there. It's an issue when they say "no" to those that finance them because they lose their funding/ability to be re-elected if they do. 

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 15, 2012, 09:51:01 PM

The government is ran by elected officials that require "money" to get there. It's an issue when they say "no" to those that finance them because they lose their funding/ability to be re-elected if they do.

The voters put politicians in place.  Try again.

Quote from: taxed on August 15, 2012, 09:52:04 PM
The voters put politicians in place.  Try again.

No trying again necessary. If you believe money isn't what puts politicians in place then you need to do so more research.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 15, 2012, 09:25:08 PM
Who buys the people that do?




Taxi, it seems that Youre so determined to tell me Im wrong that you fail to see (or admit to) the similarity in our stance. Government and big business are stealing from the people.  It's that simple, and very disheartening.

I feel bad because many people are still being played by politicians that are using their "hopes" as a means to fill their own pockets. A real peoples representative will never make it to the show, at present, because money buys the seat, and sadly, the people are to segregated to do what needs be done. We, IMO, need to stand united, against a rigged system and corruption, no matter where it begins.

if you lived in a town where the police force was extorting money from the people of the town, who is to blame, the police, or those paying to stay out of trouble?

Politics is no different, except that they write the laws, and if you want to work within the system, you either play by their rules or back people you want to see in office that can make positive change.
Business merely does what it has to, to function, it would rather stay out of politics altogether, but when you have idiot libs trying to kill your industry, you fight back the only way possible, you put money behind candidates, or you higher lawyers as your mouth piece and bribe the corrupt bastards.

Politicians are the problem, not business.
You've been spoon fed Marxist dogma that Capitalism is evil, competition is bad, industry has no soul.
Wake up kid, the real world is evil and there are people that want to kill our very way of life, business is merely a vehicle to keep us on the highway of prosperity, without the freedom to produce, there is no freedom.

Open your eyes, govt is the obstacle in our lives, why do you think we want to cut it's arms off?

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 15, 2012, 09:13:38 PM
I disagree. Money decides who stays in government. The incest then "trickles down".

So we the government gives out money in various poverty programs, it's simply buying the votes of the poor?

Quote from: mdgiles on August 16, 2012, 06:28:48 AM
So we the government gives out money in various poverty programs, it's simply buying the votes of the poor?

hahahah why didn't I think of that???

Quote from: mdgiles on August 16, 2012, 06:28:48 AM
So we the government gives out money in various poverty programs, it's simply buying the votes of the poor?

We're giving money to the poor and the rich. That doesn't take away from the fact that Our government is bought by those that are now legally allowed to pad the individual reps pocket.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 16, 2012, 03:06:39 PM

We're giving money to the poor and the rich. That doesn't take away from the fact that Our government is bought by those that are now legally allowed to pad the individual reps pocket.

Which is why we have to vote for Romney.....................he's already rich. No reason to take payoffs.

People like Obama and Harry Reid, used their positions within politics to become rich. Republicans have done the same...................we need to get rid of all of them.

Quote from: Solar on August 16, 2012, 05:21:31 AM
if you lived in a town where the police force was extorting money from the people of the town, who is to blame, the police, or those paying to stay out of trouble?

Politics is no different

Politics is different because the politicians are elected by the people who vote them in, which requires money for big campaigning, that's were big business buys your rep.

The police force in a town are not voted into their job.


However, both in your scenario are just as bad as the other, the people bribing the police and the police taking the bribe.

Quote from: kramarat on August 16, 2012, 03:12:45 PM
Which is why we have to vote for Romney.....................he's already rich. No reason to take payoffs.

Maybe no reason, but he's still taking them


http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/contrib.php?id=N00000286 (http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/contrib.php?id=N00000286)



Goldman Sachs   $636,080
JPMorgan Chase & Co   $502,874
Morgan Stanley   $476,300
Bank of America   $465,850
Credit Suisse Group   $421,310
Citigroup Inc   $345,265
Barclays   $322,400
Kirkland & Ellis   $295,042
Wells Fargo   $276,700
Deloitte LLP   $250,510
PricewaterhouseCoopers   $246,700
UBS AG   $240,000
HIG Capital   $219,495
Blackstone Group   $213,800
Bain Capital   $164,000
Elliott Management   $162,825
General Electric   $150,000
Marriott International   $137,827
Bain & Co   $137,300
Ernst & Young   $134,425




I think there's even some up there that we bailed out.. So, based on that, I guess we're now having to bail Romney out too, even though he's "rich" :sad:

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 16, 2012, 03:06:39 PM

We're giving money to the poor and the rich. That doesn't take away from the fact that Our government is bought by those that are now legally allowed to pad the individual reps pocket.

That's because the politicians are stealing it from the earners, and giving it to who they (politicians in government) deem collusion-worthy, and won't prosecute.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 16, 2012, 03:22:40 PM


Maybe no reason, but he's still taking them


http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/contrib.php?id=N00000286 (http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/contrib.php?id=N00000286)



Goldman Sachs   $636,080
JPMorgan Chase & Co   $502,874
Morgan Stanley   $476,300
Bank of America   $465,850
Credit Suisse Group   $421,310
Citigroup Inc   $345,265
Barclays   $322,400
Kirkland & Ellis   $295,042
Wells Fargo   $276,700
Deloitte LLP   $250,510
PricewaterhouseCoopers   $246,700
UBS AG   $240,000
HIG Capital   $219,495
Blackstone Group   $213,800
Bain Capital   $164,000
Elliott Management   $162,825
General Electric   $150,000
Marriott International   $137,827
Bain & Co   $137,300
Ernst & Young   $134,425




I think there's even some up there that we bailed out.. So, based on that, I guess we're now having to bail Romney out too, even though he's "rich" :sad:

The same top contributors are contributing to both campaigns. Romney will owe them nothing...................Obama is incapable of making millions, without his political position. I'll go with Romney. Without politics, Obama goes back to being a nobody..............and he knows it.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 16, 2012, 03:17:22 PM


Politics is different because the politicians are elected by the people who vote them in, which requires money for big campaigning, that's were big business buys your rep.

The police force in a town are not voted into their job.


However, both in your scenario are just as bad as the other, the people bribing the police and the police taking the bribe.

I said nothing about people bribing the police, I said Police extorting money from the citizens, in the exact same manner as politicians do to business.
Think EPA and coal power plants., or anything the EPA does, and what does business get forced into doing?
Paying Dims to keep the EPA at bay, which is a classic form of extortion by the left.

How often do you see the right creating laws specifically designed to kill an industry?
Answer is, Never, only the left creates special circumstances that make doing business costly.

Those contributions go to his campaign fund, and that is watched very closely for abuse.  If I was convinced that corporations are evil (and I think any entity can be evil dependent on who is in charge) and that the goal of a corporation was stacking the deck through government entitlements, then don't look at campaign contributions, look to the lobbyists. 
Most of the companies you listed are way too small to make any impact on government, and they contribute to both parties.  It's companies like Monsanto, or the cottongrowers association, even the NRA, these are the lobbyist groups that help shape and regulate corporate legislation. 

You have a what came first argument going on here, is government to blame because they take money, trips, and gifts from lobbyists in exchange for a vote, or is the entity that pays the lobbyists to blame for using them?  Is it much different from a pharmaceutical salesperson visiting a doctor to drum up sales? 

Lobbyists believe what they are selling is right, government has the choice to listen or not.  Just because the car salesman tries to sell you his most expensive car first doesn't make him evil, it makes him an optimist.  Will lobbyists continue to try to buy votes, yup.  Will they fail sometimes because we can't afford what they are selling, yup. 

Quote from: Solar on August 16, 2012, 05:47:54 PM
I said nothing about people bribing the police, I said Police extorting money from the citizens, in the exact same manner as politicians do to business.

Then its not like it at all. Corporations are buying reps in order to make it "to" office. You can easily say that businesses are extorting the representative for big contributions/reelection. 

Quote from: Solar on August 16, 2012, 05:47:54 PM
Think EPA and coal power plants., or anything the EPA does, and what does business get forced into doing?
Paying Dims to keep the EPA at bay, which is a classic form of extortion by the left.

Im not going to say government doesn't do harm as well though, thats the point Im trying to make though, they're both just as bad as the other. The corrupt reps, and big business that buys them.

Quote from: Solar on August 16, 2012, 05:47:54 PM
How often do you see the right creating laws specifically designed to kill an industry?
Answer is, Never, only the left creates special circumstances that make doing business costly.

There are many reasons doing business has became more costly under the left, like controlling pollution etc. True, the right doesn't seem to want to regulate much at all, but we need some regulation on businesses. I agree, however, that some things are way out around though.

Quote from: JustKari on August 16, 2012, 05:56:52 PM
Just because the car salesman tries to sell you his most expensive car first doesn't make him evil, it makes him an optimist.  Will lobbyists continue to try to buy votes, yup.  Will they fail sometimes because we can't afford what they are selling, yup.

The problem is the car salesman up selling to people who cant afford, but being allowed to, within current financial institutions abilities, acquire a loan at maybe a higher rate, above the payment the consumer can afford. Who is to blame here? The financial institution for loaning the money, or the salesman? Maybe the consumer?
Well, IMO, all the above are guilty.   However, when the financial institution is the only one to really be "bailed out" when the bubble created by these transactions bursts, well, that makes them look a bit worse. It's as if they did nothing to facilitate the troubles at hand, and we, the workers/consumers, are forced to eat all the cost. 



Thanks for the thought provoking post, Kari.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 16, 2012, 06:51:32 PM

Im not going to say government doesn't do harm as well though, thats the point Im trying to make though, they're both just as bad as the other. The corrupt reps, and big business that buys them.

And your solution is to give the corrupt Congresscritters even more power than they already possess.

Which will, of course, make it more, and more desirable for "corporations" to try and "buy" those same Congresscritters - to protect their own hides and to get Congress to pass laws to put their competition out of business, among other things.

Out of all of the Evil Corporations in this country, can you name one that I HAVE to do business with, if I don't want to? Can you name one that will take money from me without my consent?

Now, compare that with the IRS...

You said earlier, that Corporations have no soul. Well, junior, neither does the government. It can take want it wants, anytime it wants, from whomever it wants at the point of a gun.

-Dr Watt

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 16, 2012, 07:04:36 PM

The problem is the car salesman up selling to people who cant afford, but being allowed to, within current financial institutions abilities, acquire a loan at maybe a higher rate, above the payment the consumer can afford. Who is to blame here? The financial institution for loaning the money, or the salesman? Maybe the consumer?
Well, IMO, all the above are guilty.   However, when the financial institution is the only one to really be "bailed out" when the bubble created by these transactions bursts, well, that makes them look a bit worse. It's as if they did nothing to facilitate the troubles at hand, and we, the workers/consumers, are forced to eat all the cost. 



Thanks for the thought provoking post, Kari.

You just proved my point, it was the left that forced Fannie and Freddie to lend money to individuals that in no way were able to repay a loan, buy a home they should never have had in the first place.
Prior to the govt getting involved, the private loan institutions were doing fine, it was when idiots like Barney franks meddled in the private sector, did the economy go south, Bush tried hard to get the Dims to change the laws to keep the lending institutions solvent, he and others warned them that the bubble was going to pop, but the leftists wouldn't listen, or simply didn't care.

The rest is history, but history is proof the Govt never fixes anything, it only complicates it and picks winners and losers out of the mix, and in the end everyone loses.
Leave the private sector to find equilibrium, it always will, all Govt should be doing is setting rules to work within, not dictating how they do business on a social scale.

Quote from: Solar on August 17, 2012, 04:56:06 AM
You just proved my point, it was the left that forced Fannie and Freddie to lend money to individuals that in no way were able to repay a loan, buy a home they should never have had in the first place.
Prior to the govt getting involved, the private loan institutions were doing fine, it was when idiots like Barney franks meddled in the private sector, did the economy go south, Bush tried hard to get the Dims to change the laws to keep the lending institutions solvent, he and others warned them that the bubble was going to pop, but the leftists wouldn't listen, or simply didn't care.

The rest is history, but history is proof the Govt never fixes anything, it only complicates it and picks winners and losers out of the mix, and in the end everyone loses.
Leave the private sector to find equilibrium, it always will, all Govt should be doing is setting rules to work within, not dictating how they do business on a social scale.

It's yet another case of government not knowing when to stop.
Originally, they stepped in and told lending institutions that they couldn't discriminate against people because of skin color or ethnicity. That was an example of government doing the right thing. People that hold down jobs, have a good credit rating, and have the money for a down payment, tend to be responsible citizens, and shouldn't be kept out of certain neighborhoods based on anything else. It was happening, and it shouldn't have.

Then the government went on, to say that people couldn't be discriminated against because of economic status, and that everyone had a right to own a home. Hello no DOC loans. The lending institutions were forced to loan people money, with no proof of income, no job history, regardless of credit score, etc.

It wasn't just the disadvantaged that took advantage of these new fast and loose rules. It was also speculators that were grabbing up these loans, and buying up properties all over the place. Again, no documentation was needed to secure these loans. I know a guy that used them to buy investment property.

This created a building and real estate bonanza that was going on from coast to coast. It was a feeding frenzy. It artificially drove up the price of land, houses, condos...............as well as the price building materials, labor, and everything else associated with it.

The problem was, that from the beginning, there was never any real money to back any of this up. The banks knew it, and that's when these things started getting bundled and sold off. Eventually, everyone knew they were worthless, and they could no longer be sold. Hello economic collapse.

It's the reason that things are still a mess today. And the entire thing can be laid directly at the feet of our well intentioned government.

Which is why the founders knew that their power must be limited.

Quote from: kramarat on August 17, 2012, 05:42:11 AM
It's yet another case of government not knowing when to stop.
Originally, they stepped in and told lending institutions that they couldn't discriminate against people because of skin color or ethnicity. That was an example of government doing the right thing. People that hold down jobs, have a good credit rating, and have the money for a down payment, tend to be responsible citizens, and shouldn't be kept out of certain neighborhoods based on anything else. It was happening, and it shouldn't have.

Then the government went on, to say that people couldn't be discriminated against because of economic status, and that everyone had a right to own a home. Hello no DOC loans. The lending institutions were forced to loan people money, with no proof of income, no job history, regardless of credit score, etc.

It wasn't just the disadvantaged that took advantage of these new fast and loose rules. It was also speculators that were grabbing up these loans, and buying up properties all over the place. Again, no documentation was needed to secure these loans. I know a guy that used them to buy investment property.

This created a building and real estate bonanza that was going on from coast to coast. It was a feeding frenzy. It artificially drove up the price of land, houses, condos...............as well as the price building materials, labor, and everything else associated with it.

The problem was, that from the beginning, there was never any real money to back any of this up. The banks knew it, and that's when these things started getting bundled and sold off. Eventually, everyone knew they were worthless, and they could no longer be sold. Hello economic collapse.

It's the reason that things are still a mess today. And the entire thing can be laid directly at the feet of our well intentioned government.

Which is why the founders knew that their power must be limited.

More here............don't believe the lies, fish.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/07/18/fannie-freddie-regulation-oped-cx_yb_0718brook.html (http://www.forbes.com/2008/07/18/fannie-freddie-regulation-oped-cx_yb_0718brook.html)

I would also like to point out, as an addition to kramarats post, the reason minorities were being excluded from certain neighbourhoods was not the banks fault.  Realtors were trying to keep values high in certain neighborhoods, so as an example, if a Mexican family moved into a neighbourhood by renting from someone or purchasing via direct sale, then Realtors would start bringing only Mexicans in to see those neighbourhoods.  It was wrong, the government warned them and threatened them with huge fines if they were caught doing it.  The practice largely quit. 

That wasn't good enough, so the government went after the lending institutions, telling the to make loans for not only people who couldn't afford it, but to lend to people an amount greater than the value of the property (for improvement and consolidation of debt).  The government patted themselves on the back, everyone could now get a home, pay off debt, and live happily ever after, right?  Wrong, people still couldn't afford their homes, but now you have a home with a value beyond what it is appraised for, so the government stepped in yet again, loosen appraisal standards, appraise homes for higher so these poor people can sell. Appraisal values went up everywhere, adding to the market bubble.  Now you have a real problem, all those 3 to 5 year ARM loans that bankers had to do to qualify people who wouldn't't qualify for anything else, start to default.  Bankruptcy rates start to increase, foreclosure rates started to increase, right along with the unemployment rate.

Moral of the story, government saw a problem with the real estate industry, they corrected it, but did not wait to see if it fixed the problem or not, they dug in further.

Just my $.01 can't give you more, I don't have two to rub together.  I was a Realtor for about two years at the beginning of the bust.  Not a great time to be in Real Estate.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 16, 2012, 03:22:40 PM


Maybe no reason, but he's still taking them


http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/contrib.php?id=N00000286 (http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/contrib.php?id=N00000286)



Goldman Sachs   $636,080
JPMorgan Chase & Co   $502,874
Morgan Stanley   $476,300
Bank of America   $465,850
Credit Suisse Group   $421,310
Citigroup Inc   $345,265
Barclays   $322,400
Kirkland & Ellis   $295,042
Wells Fargo   $276,700
Deloitte LLP   $250,510
PricewaterhouseCoopers   $246,700
UBS AG   $240,000
HIG Capital   $219,495
Blackstone Group   $213,800
Bain Capital   $164,000
Elliott Management   $162,825
General Electric   $150,000
Marriott International   $137,827
Bain & Co   $137,300
Ernst & Young   $134,425




I think there's even some up there that we bailed out.. So, based on that, I guess we're now having to bail Romney out too, even though he's "rich" :sad:

Did the company contribute the money, or is this just a summary of the individual contributions.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 16, 2012, 03:22:40 PM


Maybe no reason, but he's still taking them


http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/contrib.php?id=N00000286 (http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/contrib.php?id=N00000286)



Goldman Sachs   $636,080                                                                     
JPMorgan Chase & Co   $502,874
Morgan Stanley   $476,300
Bank of America   $465,850
Credit Suisse Group   $421,310
Citigroup Inc   $345,265
Barclays   $322,400
Kirkland & Ellis   $295,042
Wells Fargo   $276,700
Deloitte LLP   $250,510
PricewaterhouseCoopers   $246,700
UBS AG   $240,000
HIG Capital   $219,495
Blackstone Group   $213,800
Bain Capital   $164,000
Elliott Management   $162,825
General Electric   $150,000
Marriott International   $137,827
Bain & Co   $137,300
Ernst & Young   $134,425




I think there's even some up there that we bailed out.. So, based on that, I guess we're now having to bail Romney out too, even though he's "rich" :sad:

And now lets look at your candidate.

QuoteUniversity of California    $1,648,685
Goldman Sachs    $1,013,091
Harvard University    $878,164
Microsoft Corp    $852,167
Google Inc    $814,540
JPMorgan Chase & Co    $808,799
Citigroup Inc    $736,771
Time Warner    $624,618
Sidley Austin LLP    $600,298
Stanford University    $595,716
National Amusements Inc    $563,798
WilmerHale LLP    $550,668
Columbia University    $547,852
Skadden, Arps et al    $543,539
UBS AG    $532,674
IBM Corp    $532,372
General Electric    $529,855
US Government    $513,308
Morgan Stanley    $512,232
Latham & Watkins    $503,295

I don't know what your point was though.
It proves nothing other than people contribute to campaigns.

Quote from: Solar on August 17, 2012, 09:38:11 AM
I don't know what your point was though.
It proves nothing other than people contribute to campaigns.

He wants to leave the impression that "Big Banks" are contributing to Romney. Anyone familiar with the Open Secrets site , knows they simply summarize individual contributions. Typical leftist, trying to distort.

Quote from: Solar on August 17, 2012, 09:38:11 AM
And now lets look at your candidate.

I don't know what your point was though.
It proves nothing other than people contribute to campaigns.

Can someone explain to me how the US Government could make a contribution to one candidate? That could only be tax money, right?

Quote from: Solar on August 17, 2012, 09:38:11 AM
And now lets look at your candidate.

I don't know what your point was though.
It proves nothing other than people contribute to campaigns.

Interesting
On b o side you have.........

University of California   

Harvard University   

Stanford University

Columbia University   

US Government   

Quote from: JustKari on August 17, 2012, 09:45:01 AM
Can someone explain to me how the US Government could make a contribution to one candidate? That could only be tax money, right?

They're Dims, corruption is their middle name.
It couldn't be Federal matching funds, that would mean a set limit on Hussein himself, so who knows what it is.
But we know one thing for certain, it was our tax dollars. :angry:

Quote from: Solar on August 17, 2012, 10:21:50 AM
They're Dims, corruption is their middle name.
It couldn't be Federal matching funds, that would mean a set limit on Hussein himself, so who knows what it is.
But we know one thing for certain, it was our tax dollars. :angry:

From the link:

The organizations themselves did not donate

My guess would be that these are contributions from US government employees. You know, the ones that want to see their role in our lives, continue to expand.................................even if it destroys the country.

Quote from: Solar on August 17, 2012, 09:38:11 AM
And now lets look at your candidate.

Not my candidate. But im glad you brought up their corporate owned equality.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 17, 2012, 11:41:03 PM
Not my candidate. But im glad you brought up their corporate owned equality.

Do you honestly believe that a Utopian world exists out there, where one party doesn't try and divide the country through racism, rich vs poor, or stealing from one person to enrich another?
Wake up son, there is a reason money plays a part in elections, corporate or otherwise.

So in the 2008 election when Obozo raised twice as much money as McCsin - a whole hell of a lot of it from questionable sources - it wasn't a problem. But now that Romney has out raised Obozo, you Libtards are back to bitching about money again?  And if Obozo pulls ahead in fund raising I'll bet you STFU about money again. What is it Oblamo has held a fund raiser on average every 60 hours. http://michaelcostello.blogspot.com/2012/08/obama-holds-fundraiser-every-60-hours.html (http://michaelcostello.blogspot.com/2012/08/obama-holds-fundraiser-every-60-hours.html)

Quote from: mdgiles on August 18, 2012, 08:03:22 AM
So in the 2008 election when Obozo raised twice as much money as McCsin - a whole hell of a lot of it from questionable sources - it wasn't a problem. But now that Romney has out raised Obozo, you Libtards are back to bitching about money again?  And if Obozo pulls ahead in fund raising I'll bet you STFU about money again. What is it Oblamo has held a fund raiser on average every 60 hours. http://michaelcostello.blogspot.com/2012/08/obama-holds-fundraiser-every-60-hours.html (http://michaelcostello.blogspot.com/2012/08/obama-holds-fundraiser-every-60-hours.html)

I think Obama wants to lose. He has managed to turn America on itself.....................next stop, United Nations. He is bored. He wants to run the planet.

Quote from: kramarat on August 18, 2012, 11:46:44 AM
I think Obama wants to lose. He has managed to turn America on itself.....................next stop, United Nations. He is bored. He wants to ruin the planet.

FIFY. :biggrin:

Quote from: Solar on August 18, 2012, 05:34:17 AM
Do you honestly believe that a Utopian world exists out there, where one party doesn't try and divide the country through racism, rich vs poor, or stealing from one person to enrich another?

No. But I didn't say it did. I said that both sides are equally corrupted and then thanked you for further elaborating my point with a link.

Quote from: kramarat on August 18, 2012, 11:46:44 AM
I think Obama wants to lose. He has managed to turn America on itself.....................next stop, United Nations. He is bored. He wants to run the planet.

Blaming one man for whats happening to us is like expecting Romney to be anything other than a corporate owned million dollar man.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 18, 2012, 10:56:36 PM
Blaming one man for whats happening to us is like expecting Romney to be anything other than a corporate owned million dollar man.

How is Obama not responsible? Especially after so may executive orders...

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 18, 2012, 10:53:50 PM
No. But I didn't say it did. I said that both sides are equally corrupted and then thanked you for further elaborating my point with a link.

Which brings us full circle back to the Tea party, new members with the goal of changing the path of Govt.
Whether you agree with their politics or not is of no consequence, they are there for one reason, to give power back to the people and get special interests out of Govt, shrink Govts overreaching agenda.
The Tea party is trying to change the very thing you rail against. 

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 18, 2012, 10:56:36 PM
Blaming one man for whats happening to us is like expecting Romney to be anything other than a corporate owned million dollar man.

If Romney's corporate owned, he's owned by the corporation that he created. I doubt that scenario exists.

You know what's funny?

The people that are calling Romney a criminal, haven't passed a budget in almost 4 years....................which is illegal.

They are also managing to spend $1 trillion more per year than they are bringing in.

If Romney was a tax cheat and a criminal, he would already be in jail.

Laughing at the left is becoming a national pastime. :laugh:

Quote from: kramarat on August 19, 2012, 06:44:37 AM
If Romney's corporate owned, he's owned by the corporation that he created. I doubt that scenario exists.

You know what's funny?

The people that are calling Romney a criminal, haven't passed a budget in almost 4 years....................which is illegal.

They are also managing to spend $1 trillion more per year than they are bringing in.

If Romney was a tax cheat and a criminal, he would already be in jail.

Laughing at the left is becoming a national pastime. :laugh:

Laughing at those that believe the lies of the leftists is even more laughable.
How gullible does one have to be?

Quote from: Solar on August 19, 2012, 07:10:28 AM
Laughing at those that believe the lies of the leftists is even more laughable.
How gullible does one have to be?

As screwed up as the situation is, I try to have fun with it.

I have a lot of left leaning friends. When I point out to them that liking Obama, is the same as liking an ever expanding government that has more and more control over our lives, and is spending us into oblivion........................they become speechless. The wind goes out of their sails. Because they know I'm right. :blink:

Quote from: kramarat on August 19, 2012, 07:21:48 AM
As screwed up as the situation is, I try to have fun with it.

I have a lot of left leaning friends. When I point out to them that liking Obama, is the same as liking an ever expanding government that has more and more control over our lives, and is spending us into oblivion........................they become speechless. The wind goes out of their sails. Because they know I'm right. :blink:

When you point out the facts that add up to advocating cancer, they realize just how bad it is, but in typical liberal form, justify it emotionally to themselves as in cognitive dissonance.

Quote from: Solar on August 19, 2012, 08:05:56 AM
When you point out the facts that add up to advocating cancer, they realize just how bad it is, but in typical liberal form, justify it emotionally to themselves as in cognitive dissonance.

I go out of my way, not to rub salt in their wounds. I've actually managed to convert several people...................well, they converted themselves, I just helped.

I just pound away at fiscal conservatism. Once they understand that it's okay to be a fiscal conservative with liberal social veiws, they start coming around.

Then we can move on to talking about the fact that the government has become far to big, powerful, and mostly, expensive.

They are always a little surprised to find out that I am not in love with the republican party. It's a good ice breaker. :wink:

Quote from: Solar on August 19, 2012, 06:33:39 AM
Which brings us full circle back to the Tea party, new members with the goal of changing the path of Govt.
Whether you agree with their politics or not is of no consequence, they are there for one reason, to give power back to the people and get special interests out of Govt, shrink Govts overreaching agenda.
The Tea party is trying to change the very thing you rail against.

If the tea party and the 99%ers would get together we'd maybe have a chance. 


Curious, how do those in the tea party pick their representative?

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 19, 2012, 06:59:45 PM
If the tea party and the 99%ers would get together we'd maybe have a chance. 


Curious, how do those in the tea party pick their representative?

Tea Party picks fiscal conservatives, the OWS group are at the opposite end of the spectrum, they are foolishly following Communists.

Quote from: Solar on August 19, 2012, 07:34:15 PM
Tea Party picks fiscal conservatives, the OWS group are at the opposite end of the spectrum, they are foolishly following Communists.

Both seem to be groups of people upset at corruption.

You didn't answer my question.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 19, 2012, 07:50:28 PM
Both seem to be groups of people upset at corruption.

You didn't answer my question.

Yes I did, "Tea Party picks fiscal conservatives".
It's not as much a social movement as it is a movement to reign in Govt on all levels.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 19, 2012, 07:50:28 PM
Both seem to be groups of people upset at corruption.

You didn't answer my question.

Actually, only the Tea Party are truly upset about corruption. The so-called Occupy Wall Street types are, for the most part, students, losers, hangers on, brought together by professional organizers whose sole purpose is to foment unrest and violence to give the Political Elite and excuse to expand their extra Constitutional powers even further. There purpose is to panic the Middle Class into accepting whatever restrictions Obama and his regime choose to impose on us.

The organizers of OWS, are working for the Obama Administration. They are, in fact knowingly supporting the corruption they claim to be opposing. The rest of the OWS type are just, as Lenin said, "Useful Idiots".

-Dr Watt

Quote from: Solar on August 19, 2012, 07:52:48 PM
Yes I did, "Tea Party picks fiscal conservatives".
It's not as much a social movement as it is a movement to reign in Govt on all levels.

How are they picking them?

Quote from: Dr_Watt on August 19, 2012, 09:22:09 PM
The organizers of OWS, are working for the Obama Administration. They are, in fact knowingly supporting the corruption they claim to be opposing. 

Link?


It seems that the OWS movement is people upset about corporate greed it being allowed by corrupt government.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 19, 2012, 09:50:50 PM

Link?


It seems that the OWS movement is people upset about corporate greed it being allowed by corrupt government.

This week....

Quote from: The Boo Man... on August 19, 2012, 11:39:49 PM
This week....

No, from the start.  It's been a good while now.

You'd think people upset about corrupt government would stop trashing one another. Together there's an actual chance at change, without that, it's just more of the same.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 19, 2012, 11:52:50 PM
No, from the start.  It's been a good while now.

You'd think people upset about corrupt government would stop trashing one another. Together there's an actual chance at change, without that, it's just more of the same.

So you still think OWS is grassroots. Is that right?

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 18, 2012, 10:56:36 PM
Blaming one man for whats happening to us is like expecting Romney to be anything other than a corporate owned million dollar man.

I don't know how you got there, from what I wrote. Obama is a divide and conquer politician. You're blind if you don't recognize that.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 19, 2012, 09:48:22 PM

How are they picking them?

I don't know why I need to teach you about human nature as well, do I really need to spell out the whole sequence of getting
noticed?
How most leaders are chosen, by accident or the fact that they are born leaders.
Take Joe Plumber, he was thrust into a leadership position.
The people the tea party are backing, are the very same ones that were kept out by the power that be, and now are getting support though the grassroots network.

Now research how OWS leaders were chosen
You won't like the answer, I guarantee it. :biggrin:

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 18, 2012, 10:56:36 PM
Blaming one man for whats happening to us is like expecting Romney to be anything other than a corporate owned million dollar man.

And if you think Hussein is an actual leader, you haven't been studying your history.
Hussein is nothing more than a puppet for those that placed him in office.

This is typical of far left movements, the people seem to come from nowhere and promise the little guy, everything the rich guy owns, all he has to do is vote for the guy promising "Hope and Change", a promise that he will "Fundamentally change the country", all the while never once telling you how he plans to do it.
Then he starts by villainizing free mkt industry and paints his opponent as a greedy corporate shill.

Sound familiar? It should, Hussein is just following every communist dictator that ever came to power in the last few centuries, or at least since the term communism was fomented.
That is also the connection OWS plays, they are mere tools of the same arm, they are being fueled through the same message, evil corporations need to be brought down.

Am I getting through to you yet?

Now take the Tea party, the antithesis of both OWS and the dim party communists, we like Capitalism, we like our freedoms, the left wants to take those freedoms away, so we got angry and came together, all without actual leadership but rather a shared belief in America.

Fish, honestly Google Occupy Wall Street, even if you look at the first few non-video links,you will become more informed.  Ironically enough, OWS is corporate, they started in Canada as a means to spread a Marxist agenda.   Everything is well planned out and known in advance, their are even news stories about how Obama specifically told law enforcement officers of certain cities to leave them alone.  In some cases, before the cities even knew they were coming.
I have posted at least one link here, so if you go to my profile and search OWS, you will find it, that link is a good start.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 19, 2012, 09:50:50 PM

Link?

Did you see any quotes in my post?

MY analysis of what is going on is based on MY observations of the events in question. It may be a totally foreign concept to you, but this is what is called "critical thinking". Some of us do it as a matter of course.

-Dr Watt

Quote from: JustKari on August 20, 2012, 06:18:22 AM
Fish, honestly Google Occupy Wall Street, even if you look at the first few non-video links,you will become more informed.  Ironically enough, OWS is corporate, they started in Canada as a means to spread a Marxist agenda.   Everything is well planned out and known in advance, their are even news stories about how Obama specifically told law enforcement officers of certain cities to leave them alone.  In some cases, before the cities even knew they were coming.
I have posted at least one link here, so if you go to my profile and search OWS, you will find it, that link is a good start.

I've posted that evidence to him three times, even bolded the pertinent info. where they admit they are a Marxist magazine and promoted the OWS idea.
But for some reason he either ignores it, or can't grasp the concept there is still a communist threat alive and well today.
Either way, he refuses to absorb the truth behind the movement. I think a lot of his opinion is the shared belief that all corporate structure should be brought to bear under the wrath of the little guy, which is how he views the OWS movement, as some kind of David vs Goliath.
Fact is, The person he sees as David (the OWS protester), is actually backed by a conglomeration of Goliath's.

Quote from: The Boo Man... on August 19, 2012, 11:54:50 PM
So you still think OWS is grassroots. Is that right?

I dont think the OWS or the Tea party were initiated by "grassroots".  But they both seem to be filled with people upset at government. A difference Im seeing is that the OWS folk are upset with corporations as well. Some of the tea party are too, Im sure, but the OWS are more verbal in that area.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 20, 2012, 09:04:46 AM

I dont think the OWS or the Tea party were initiated by "grassroots".  But they both seem to be filled with people upset at government. A difference Im seeing is that the OWS folk are upset with corporations as well. Some of the tea party are too, Im sure, but the OWS are more verbal in that area.

Then you have not been paying attention and have simply let them feed you lies.

The Tea party, absent of central planning is a key to its strength. Decentralization gives it operational flexibility, local leadership and decisions, with continuous learning as concepts are informally shared between local organizations  makes it a network, it is not run from on high, but rather from the ground up, hence, Grassroots.

"This is a wake-up call for everyone in office in Texas and across the country," said Matt Mackowiak, a Republican strategist and former aide to Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, who is vacating the seat that Cruz is heavily favored to win in November. "If it can be done here, it can be done anywhere."

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/08/01/4146483/tea-party-gains-steam-with-cruzs.html#storylink=cpy (http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/08/01/4146483/tea-party-gains-steam-with-cruzs.html#storylink=cpy)

Quote from: Solar on August 20, 2012, 09:32:45 AM
Then you have not been paying attention and have simply let them feed you lies.

"Our message is that we want elected officials with conservative principles. It doesn't matter who endorses you or backs you, necessarily. You've got to have the principles as well," Burton said.

"We are tired of the establishment picking who is next. We are saying we are going to pick the next elected official, not the establishment."




How are "we" picking them? It's still a right wing "think tank" doing the "thinking" for the supposed "grassroots".

The problem you have is the "elected officials" are still being chosen for you, and your being told "they care about your ideals". Sure, a couple may actual care, and try, but to what end? The ability to change things within our bought government requires more than the hand full of people that either the tea party or OWS can place into office.

This is why the two groups should become one. The only real chance at change would be to merge the two houses. Do you not agree?

Do you think corporate greed allowed by government, buying our government, needs to end? Do you like your hard earned money being given to failed businesses for campaign contributions? I dont think you do, and that's the common factor, what we should focus on.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 20, 2012, 10:44:43 AM


"Our message is that we want elected officials with conservative principles. It doesn't matter who endorses you or backs you, necessarily. You've got to have the principles as well," Burton said.

"We are tired of the establishment picking who is next. We are saying we are going to pick the next elected official, not the establishment."

How are "we" picking them? It's still a right wing "think tank" doing the "thinking" for the supposed "grassroots".

Wrong! You don't understand the conservative principals, the core value that unites all of us.

QuoteThe problem you have is the "elected officials" are still being chosen for you, and your being told "they care about your ideals". Sure, a couple may actual care, and try, but to what end?

No they aren't, many came from the ground up, many were already in the ranks, but it was the Tea party that got behingd the conservatives with core principals.

QuoteThe ability to change things within our bought government requires more than the hand full of people that either the tea party or OWS can place into office.

This is why the two groups should become one. The only real chance at change would be to merge the two houses. Do you not agree?
Do you think corporate greed allowed by government, buying our government, needs to end? Do you like your hard earned money being given to failed businesses for campaign contributions? I dont think you do, and that's the common factor, what we should focus on.

These two groups are in complete opposition to one another, the OWS group wants Govt to create laws and insert a heavier presence, the Tea party doesn't want more Govt.
Had there never been a bailout, we would not be in the mess we are today, the free mkt would have worked it all out, that's what the Tea party wants, less govt intervention.

Which would you rather see, less govt intervention, or more govt dictating the free mkt?
I think the answer is obvious.

Quote from: Solar on August 20, 2012, 12:12:43 PM
Wrong! You don't understand the conservative principals, the core value that unites all of us.

If those core principles actually united all of you then you wouldn't keep having to choose between the "lesser evil".

Quote from: Solar on August 20, 2012, 12:12:43 PM
No they aren't, many came from the ground up, many were already in the ranks, but it was the Tea party that got behingd the conservatives with core principals.
These two groups are in complete opposition to one another, the OWS group wants Govt to create laws and insert a heavier presence, the Tea party doesn't want more Govt.
Had there never been a bailout, we would not be in the mess we are today, the free mkt would have worked it all out, that's what the Tea party wants, less govt intervention.

Which would you rather see, less govt intervention, or more govt dictating the free mkt?
I think the answer is obvious.

I believe that those profiting off the people do need some regulation for the good of the people.  But I dont believe that they should be leashed to the point of asphyxiation. 

The OWS, and the tea party certainly have common ground, its the extremists within the two groups that are constantly claiming separation between the two. Both are upset about corporate and government corruption/collusion. And that's far from polar opposite.

Quote from: Dr_Watt on August 20, 2012, 06:30:13 AM
Did you see any quotes in my post?

MY analysis of what is going on is based on MY observations of the events in question. It may be a totally foreign concept to you, but this is what is called "critical thinking". Some of us do it as a matter of course.

-Dr Watt

When you say something like -

"The organizers of OWS, are working for the Obama Administration."

and have no proof to back it up, then it's not critical thinking, it's more emotional blather, really.  It's not unlike the people that say "bush planned the attacks on 911", etc etc.. Sure, bush is a douche, but there's no real proof that he did any such thing.



Unless you can post some evidence to the contrary? Then I will be glad to give it a look, Doc.  :thumbup:

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 20, 2012, 02:27:40 PM

If those core principles actually united all of you then you wouldn't keep having to choose between the "lesser evil".


I believe that those profiting off the people do need some regulation for the good of the people.  But I dont believe that they should be leashed to the point of asphyxiation. 

The OWS, and the tea party certainly have common ground, its the extremists within the two groups that are constantly claiming separation between the two. Both are upset about corporate and government corruption/collusion. And that's far from polar opposite.

No, the OWS and the Tea party are Light Years apart, there is no common ground between them.
You have a few disillusioned college students that think the OWS movement is all about fighting corruption, but nothing could be further from the truth.
The OWS movement is all about the destruction of Capitalism, but it goes even further, they are misanthropes, they pretty much hate everything man has achieved, they actually want a return to the dark ages.
Not all want to return that far back in time, but the base of their belief system is anti progress.

Fish, I'm serious, you really need to read and learn, and turn of the damned TV.

Quote from: Solar on August 20, 2012, 04:41:49 PM
Fish, I'm serious, you really need to read and learn, and turn of the damned TV.

I barely have enough time to type here, dont watch tv, I do read a lot though. In my little bit of free time.

Quote from: Solar on August 20, 2012, 04:41:49 PM
No, the OWS and the Tea party are Light Years apart, there is no common ground between them.

There is a commonality, the people within the two groups are both upset by corporate and government collusion/corruption. 

Quote from: Solar on August 20, 2012, 04:41:49 PM
You have a few disillusioned college students that think the OWS movement is all about fighting corruption, but nothing could be further from the truth.
The OWS movement is all about the destruction of Capitalism, but it goes even further, they are misanthropes, they pretty much hate everything man has achieved, they actually want a return to the dark ages.
Not all want to return that far back in time, but the base of their belief system is anti progress.

That^ is merely misinformation, the same type of misinformation that the extreme few within the OWS movement say about the tea party. Its this type attitude that allow corruption remain.

Solar, the people are upset because they see they're being robbed. Why you would equate them to mere destructionists is beyond me, and, to be honest, what keeps us all in the dark ages.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conservative (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conservative)

"disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change."

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 20, 2012, 08:32:44 PM
I barely have enough time to type here, dont watch tv, I do read a lot though. In my little bit of free time.


There is a commonality, the people within the two groups are both upset by corporate and government collusion/corruption. 

That^ is merely misinformation, the same type of misinformation that the extreme few within the OWS movement say about the tea party. Its this type attitude that allow corruption remain.

Solar, the people are upset because they see they're being robbed. Why you would equate them to mere destructionists is beyond me, and, to be honest, what keeps us all in the dark ages.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conservative (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conservative)

"disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change."

Alright, let me bring you up to speed, they are Marxists at heart, they want to destroy Capitalism, not change it.
Note the last line in this page by Adbusters, the group that started OWS.

QuoteMeanwhile, tents are up once again in Tahrir Square and youth from Quebec to Auckland to Moscow to Oakland are rising up against a future that does not compute.

Stay loose, play jazz, keep the faith ... Capitalism is crashing and our movement has just begun.

for the wild,
Culture Jammers HQ

http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/flash-encampments.html (http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/flash-encampments.html)

QuoteOf all the modern economic theories, the economic system of Marxism is founded on moral principles, while capitalism is concerned with only with gain and profitability. Marxism is concerned with the distribution of wealth on an equal basis and the equitable utilization of the means of production. It is also concerned with the fate of the working classes – that is the majority – as well as with the fate of those who are underprivileged and in need, and Marxism cares about the victims of minority-imposed exploitation. For those reasons the system appeals to me, and it seems fair ... The failure of the regime in the Soviet Union was, for me not the failure of Marxism but the failure of totalitarianism. For this reason I think of myself as half-Marxist, half-Buddhist.
http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/102/spiritual-crisis-of-capitalism.html (http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/102/spiritual-crisis-of-capitalism.html)

Now do you get it?

Quote from: Solar on August 20, 2012, 09:12:05 PM
Alright, let me bring you up to speed, they are Marxists at heart, they want to destroy Capitalism, not change it.
Note the last line in this page by Adbusters, the group that started OWS.

Now do you get it?

Youre not getting it.  Or you are and would rather just rail against OWS then side against corporate greed. And, based on what you've had to allow thus far about corporations, well, sadly, that seemingly fits perfect your ideals.

Either way, within the OWS movement are many people who are simply fed up with corruption, to turn away those people and point at the select few who hate capitalism would be exactly like turning away the tea party for the racist people among their ranks.  The smart thing to do would be to join ranks and fight corrupt businesses and corrupt government. Segregated angry groups is not going to successfully fight back our mutual enemy. 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterleeds/2011/10/11/whos-occupying-wall-street/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterleeds/2011/10/11/whos-occupying-wall-street/)

"Since companies can make unlimited political donations, they are unfairly influencing the goverment for their own aims, at the detriment to 99% of people."

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 20, 2012, 10:26:42 PM


Youre not getting it.  Or you are and would rather just rail against OWS then side against corporate greed. And, based on what you've had to allow thus far about corporations, well, sadly, that seemingly fits perfect your ideals.

Either way, within the OWS movement are many people who are simply fed up with corruption, to turn away those people and point at the select few who hate capitalism would be exactly like turning away the tea party for the racist people among their ranks.  The smart thing to do would be to join ranks and fight corrupt businesses and corrupt government. Segregated angry groups is not going to successfully fight back our mutual enemy. 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterleeds/2011/10/11/whos-occupying-wall-street/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterleeds/2011/10/11/whos-occupying-wall-street/)

"Since companies can make unlimited political donations, they are unfairly influencing the goverment for their own aims, at the detriment to 99% of people."

How much evidence do you need to see that one group is communist at it's roots and wants to destroy Capitalism, while the other is Hell bent on recapturing our overbearing Govt. and taking away some of it's power?

They are polar opposites, OWS wants to use the heavy hand of Govt to make change, while the Tea party wants to gut the power of Govt.
The Tea party is not interested in the money influence as much as they are a govt that writes laws making the playing field uneven.
We know that taking power from Govt, is the best way to corral corruption, a complete opposite way of thinking when compared to OWS.
OWS wants to use the Govt as a tool to punish business, we want to free business from the corrupt and overbearing hand of Govt.

These two groups have absolutely nothing in common, they are diametrically opposed, one is full of tools for the commies, while the other is adults that want more freedom from Govt.

Don't fall into the trap of believing OWS is full of honorable intentions, many kids have fallen for the lie.
I'm not saying everyone protesting are idiots, many are just angry at what they believe to be corruption in the power base, and that would be a true statement, the problem is, they are being mislead, they aren't being given the true motive behind this movement.

Why do you think the Dim party gave a wink and a nod the OWS protests, they are in alignment with the movement, they too want to impose Marxists ideals.
Hussein has proven time and time again he believes in the ideals of Marxism and and doesn't understand Free mkt principles, principles that are completely foreign to him.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 20, 2012, 03:07:21 PM

When you say something like -

"The organizers of OWS, are working for the Obama Administration."

and have no proof to back it up, then it's not critical thinking, it's more emotional blather, really.  It's not unlike the people that say "bush planned the attacks on 911", etc etc.. Sure, bush is a douche, but there's no real proof that he did any such thing.



Unless you can post some evidence to the contrary? Then I will be glad to give it a look, Doc.  :thumbup:

How about in their own words...

OWS/Union Communist Leadership Fear if They become Violent the Military Would Wipe Them Out. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trd1Bw7nUrs#)

Is that proof enough for you junior?

-Dr Watt

Quote from: Dr_Watt on August 21, 2012, 06:11:08 AM
How about in their own words...

OWS/Union Communist Leadership Fear if They become Violent the Military Would Wipe Them Out. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trd1Bw7nUrs#)

Is that proof enough for you junior?

-Dr Watt

Get ready for the excuses to follow, he simply can't accept or refuses to accept the reality behind the movement.
He looks at it through the spectrum of emotion, he has framed the movement as noble, regardless of the facts, therefore, it matters not what evidence we present, it will not change his mind, he is a lib to the core.

Quote from: Solar on August 21, 2012, 06:01:29 AM
How much evidence do you need to see that one group is communist at it's roots and wants to destroy Capitalism, while the other is Hell bent on recapturing our overbearing Govt. and taking away some of it's power?

They are polar opposites, OWS wants to use the heavy hand of Govt to make change, while the Tea party wants to gut the power of Govt.
The Tea party is not interested in the money influence as much as they are a govt that writes laws making the playing field uneven.

How much evidence do you need for you to realize that both groups are upset with government and corporate collusion/corruption?

The tea party is just as interested in money influence because its that influence that writes those laws making the "playing field uneven". 

Quote from: Dr_Watt on August 21, 2012, 06:11:08 AM
How about in their own words...

OWS/Union Communist Leadership Fear if They become Violent the Military Would Wipe Them Out. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trd1Bw7nUrs#)

Is that proof enough for you junior?

-Dr Watt

 


Where in that video do you get that "the organizers of OWS, are working for the Obama Administration"? 

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 21, 2012, 12:57:20 PM
How much evidence do you need for you to realize that both groups are upset with government and corporate collusion/corruption?

The tea party is just as interested in money influence because its that influence that writes those laws making the "playing field uneven".

That is not the Tea party objective, not even close, we want less Govt, the OWS wants to use Govt to beat up on Capitalism.
The two have absolutely nothing in common.

Are you being purposely ignorant of the OWS actual cause?
They are Marxists set on destroying Capitalism, why is this not sinking in?

Quote from: Solar on August 21, 2012, 01:15:32 PM
That is not the Tea party objective

But you said the tea party is interested in

Quote from: Solar on August 21, 2012, 06:01:29 AM
govt that writes laws making the playing field uneven.

Well, based on that^ , and the fact that big money can now legally purchase your rep, which makes that playing field uneven, then the tea party and the people of the OWS movement do have a common objective.  "Even the playing field", 99% verses the wealthiest one percent that buys your representative is not even.

Are you really going to keep looking past this obvious commonality?
It behooves us to merge the two groups. Yes, some within the tea party are racist douche bags and some within the OWS are Marxists, but that doesn't mean all are, and certainly shouldn't stop us from trying to better the Nation by using the power the two groups combined could offer the people. 

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 21, 2012, 01:46:46 PM

But you said the tea party is interested in

Well, based on that^ , and the fact that big money can now legally purchase your rep, which makes that playing field uneven, then the tea party and the people of the OWS movement do have a common objective.  "Even the playing field", 99% verses the wealthiest one percent that buys your representative is not even.

Are you really going to keep looking past this obvious commonality?
It behooves us to merge the two groups. Yes, some within the tea party are racist douche bags and some within the OWS are Marxists, but that doesn't mean all are, and certainly shouldn't stop us from trying to better the Nation by using the power the two groups combined could offer the people.

Your need to justify a communist movement says more about you than anything you've ever posted.

I said returning to a smaller govt would naturally shrink money interests, but OWS wants Govt to kill Capitalism to get money out.
How is that a common interest, when both have different end goals?

Fish, you did not fully quote Solar, and you know it.  OWS and the Tea Party are diametrically opposed.  OWS wants to overthrow the current government to put people in charge who want to control every aspect of business and profit.  Tea Party members want to elect people to get the government as far way from business as possible.  OWS hates capitalism, the Tea Party is for capitalism.   End of story, no "admission" needed.   

Quote from: JustKari on August 21, 2012, 02:01:09 PM
Fish, you did not fully quote Solar, and you know it.  OWS and the Tea Party are diametrically opposed.  OWS wants to overthrow the current government to put people in charge who want to control every aspect of business and profit.  Tea Party members want to elect people to get the government as far way from business as possible.  OWS hates capitalism, the Tea Party is for capitalism.   End of story, no "admission" needed.

He knows what he did, he just doesn't want to accept the truth.
He thinks by aligning with the Tea party, he somehow legitimizes a Marxist movement through osmosis. :laugh:

Have you ever seen someone as thick as a lib?

Quote from: JustKari on August 21, 2012, 02:01:09 PM
Fish, you did not fully quote Solar, and you know it. 

I didnt need to fully quote. I was comparing the part he said about the tea party with the OWS. 

Quote from: JustKari on August 21, 2012, 02:01:09 PM
OWS hates capitalism, the Tea Party is for capitalism.   End of story, no "admission" needed.

The OWS is made up of many types of people, some dont like capitalism some do. but all seem to be upset about corporate greed dictating government.  Thats the part that is very similar to the tea party, they are upset about an "uneven playing field" because the people who "write the laws" are bought.

The OWS, is a joke, if they were actually for what they SAY they are for, they would align themselves with the green party, which has been saying the same thing as the OWS crowd, they've just been doing it a lot longer. 

Most of the protesters don't actually want relevance, if OWS would suddenly get what they want, all those professional protesters would have to go back to chaining themselves to trees, or getting pecked by condors.  Sitting in front of a business, that has working facilitates must be cushy by comparison. buying coffee from Starbucks, wearing Gap clothes, talking on your Verizon Wireless phone, updating your suffering status to face book, makes your cause against "the 1%" seem disingenuous at best.

Quote from: Solar on August 21, 2012, 01:58:20 PM
Your need to justify a communist movement says more about you than anything you've ever posted.

Your need to rail against a group that has a obvious commonality to the tea party says more about you then anything you've posted as well. Well, actually,  that and your need to defend corporations in government corporation corruption/ collusion.

Quote from: Solar on August 21, 2012, 01:58:20 PM
OWS wants Govt to kill Capitalism to get money out.

The OWS doesn't want to "kill capitalism", some within the ranks do... It's like saying we're total opposite because the tea party is racist people that want to take away the rights of black people.

Just because some within the ranks, on both sides, are wrong, doesn't mean we should look past a commonality that could join a powerful group for a much needed fight. The fight against corruption.

Quote from: JustKari on August 21, 2012, 02:43:22 PM
The OWS, is a joke, if they were actually for what they SAY they are for, they would align themselves with the green party, which has been saying the same thing as the OWS crowd, they've just been doing it a lot longer.

I disagree that they're a joke. Any group that can upset corporations and the corporate owned this much is far from a "joke".

Quote from: JustKari on August 21, 2012, 02:43:22 PM
makes your cause against "the 1%" seem disingenuous at best.

Our cause against the 1%, those that make the 'playing field uneven'. We have common ground.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 21, 2012, 02:49:29 PM

I disagree that they're a joke. Any group that can upset corporations and the corporate owned this much is far from a "joke".


Our cause against the 1%, those that make the 'playing field uneven'. We have common ground.

Okay, how are they effecting huge corporations?  I googled, and could find no instance where the business hurt was not a small one. 

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 21, 2012, 02:46:25 PM

Your need to rail against a group that has a obvious commonality to the tea party says more about you then anything you've posted as well. Well, actually,  that and your need to defend corporations in government corporation corruption/ collusion.

You are the only one making the distinction, no one else is that ignorant of the ideologies.

QuoteThe OWS doesn't want to "kill capitalism", some within the ranks do... It's like saying we're total opposite because the tea party is racist people that want to take away the rights of black people.

That's like claiming some people in the New Black Panthers are seeking racial harmony.

That connection is ludicrous, I gave you solid proof the movement wants to kill Capitalism, or did you just ignore the quote?
Now you want to claim the Tea party is racist? Give me proof, or look the fool you are!

Quote
Just because some within the ranks, on both sides, are wrong, doesn't mean we should look past a commonality that could join a powerful group for a much needed fight. The fight against corruption.

Some in both ranks? Show me some in the Tea party that wants Govt to hurt Capitalists.

Wake up son, you are trying to defend communists, people that are using the youth as tools to destroy our way of life.
If you understood history, you wouldn't be defending the movement.

Quote from: JustKari on August 21, 2012, 03:04:51 PM
Okay, how are they effecting huge corporations?  I googled, and could find no instance where the business hurt was not a small one.

By getting information out there about the "uneven playing field". Even tea party folk are saying the same thing about the political playing field. It's that message that gets under the skin of the corporate owned government.  It's that reality that the people need to know so that we the people have a even playing field.

Quote from: Solar on August 21, 2012, 03:13:08 PM

Now you want to claim the Tea party is racist? Give me proof, or look the fool you are!
Some in both ranks? Show me some in the Tea party that wants Govt to hurt Capitalists.

Are you really trying to claim that there are no racist people among the tea party? Come on Solar, I know your not that bias. Well, I dont think you're that bias, anyway.

Quote from: Solar on August 21, 2012, 03:13:08 PM
Wake up son, you are trying to defend communists, people that are using the youth as tools to destroy our way of life.
If you understood history, you wouldn't be defending the movement.

You need to do some more reading. Your far right fringe mentality is keeping you from seeing reality.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/occupy-wall-street-isnt-a_b_1034418.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/occupy-wall-street-isnt-a_b_1034418.html)

"The Wall Street Journal conducted a poll recently that asked OWS supporters, "What frustrates you the most about the political process in the United States?" Only three percent said "the democratic/capitalist system." Three percent. The poll also asked supporters what they hope the movement will achieve and only four percent wanted the "dissolution" of the capitalist system."

"According to Gallup, 68 percent of Americans want corporations to have less influence in America."

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 21, 2012, 03:36:49 PM


By getting information out there about the "uneven playing field". Even tea party folk are saying the same thing about the political playing field. It's that message that gets under the skin of the corporate owned government.  It's that reality that the people need to know so that we the people have a even playing field.

No were not!!!
Our main goal is to reduce the size and scope of Govt. Period!
Quit trying to piggyback on a legitimate movement, the two groups are at opposite ends of the spectrum and have nothing in common whatsoever!

Quote from: Solar on August 21, 2012, 04:01:28 PM
No were not!!!
Our main goal is to reduce the size and scope of Govt. Period!
Quit trying to piggyback on a legitimate movement, the two groups are at opposite ends of the spectrum and have nothing in common whatsoever!

They are both legitimate movements. And yes, You are saying the same things, You even said that the playing field is

Quote from: Solar on August 21, 2012, 06:01:29 AM
uneven.

Now why is the playing field uneven? Well, your reps are bought by big money.. And that's exactly what the majority of the OWS is against. 

Now, maybe the tea party wants government smaller, fine, that's still no reason not to combine forces to take on the corruption at hand. We can argue over size later, cause now, we're all being screwed. We are equally screwed at the moment.


"The Wall Street Journal conducted a poll recently that asked OWS supporters, "What frustrates you the most about the political process in the United States?" Only three percent said "the democratic/capitalist system." Three percent. The poll also asked supporters what they hope the movement will achieve and only four percent wanted the "dissolution" of the capitalist system."

"According to Gallup, 68 percent of Americans want corporations to have less influence in America."

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 21, 2012, 04:10:57 PM

They are both legitimate movements. And yes, You are saying the same things, You even said that the playing field is

Now why is the playing field uneven? Well, your reps are bought by big money.. And that's exactly what the majority of the OWS is against. 

Now, maybe the tea party wants government smaller, fine, that's still no reason not to combine forces to take on the corruption at hand. We can argue over size later, cause now, we're all being screwed. We are equally screwed at the moment.


"The Wall Street Journal conducted a poll recently that asked OWS supporters, "What frustrates you the most about the political process in the United States?" Only three percent said "the democratic/capitalist system." Three percent. The poll also asked supporters what they hope the movement will achieve and only four percent wanted the "dissolution" of the capitalist system."

"According to Gallup, 68 percent of Americans want corporations to have less influence in America."

Most of the people in the actual OWS camps, are looking for a place to party, screw, and pretend that they are part of something important.
Any revolution will do, as long as they feel like they belong to something.

It is government that is empowering corporations to screw people out of money...........................and it's the government that needs to reigned in. If we had an honest government, the corporations could not get away with the things they do.

WE DO NOT HAVE AN HONEST GOVERNMENT IN PLACE.

The corporate pilfering is peanuts compared to the money that the government steals. Obama wants to go after the honest citizens, and bring more money into government. He is not interested in stopping the corporate thieves.

Do a google search on corporate types in Obama's administration..........................Monsanto and GE in particular.

The idiots in OWS are stupid enough to think that Obama is on their side........................he's not. He never talks about going after corporate America, he talks about going after rich people. The bad guys that make over $200K a year.

Fish,

I know democrats that are voting a straight republican ticket in Nov. It takes more than that; it takes honest constitutional conservatives to take all three branches of government. People that put the country way ahead of their political ambitions........................they aren't easy to find, in either party.

Once those people are in place......................they will bust the corporate crooks, simplify the tax code, and run the country as it was intended. Of the people, for the people. And it doesn't mean welfare and food stamps.

It's our only chance.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 21, 2012, 04:10:57 PM

They are both legitimate movements. And yes, You are saying the same things, You even said that the playing field is

Now why is the playing field uneven? Well, your reps are bought by big money.. And that's exactly what the majority of the OWS is against. 

Now, maybe the tea party wants government smaller, fine, that's still no reason not to combine forces to take on the corruption at hand. We can argue over size later, cause now, we're all being screwed. We are equally screwed at the moment.


"The Wall Street Journal conducted a poll recently that asked OWS supporters, "What frustrates you the most about the political process in the United States?" Only three percent said "the democratic/capitalist system." Three percent. The poll also asked supporters what they hope the movement will achieve and only four percent wanted the "dissolution" of the capitalist system."

"According to Gallup, 68 percent of Americans want corporations to have less influence in America."

Nice try at twisting my words, but you failed big time.
Business is not the problem, Govt writing laws forcing an uneven playing field.
Quit playing games, you are nothing but a tool of the left when you try and legitimize a communist movement.
There is Absolutely nothing legitimate about trying to bring down the country.

Here is what I said, and what you tried too use in your argument, where you fell flat on your ass!

Quote from: Solar on August 21, 2012, 06:01:29 AM


They are polar opposites, OWS wants to use the heavy hand of Govt to make change, while the Tea party wants to gut the power of Govt.
The Tea party is not interested in the money influence as much as they are a govt that writes laws making the playing field uneven.
We know that taking power from Govt, is the best way to corral corruption, a complete opposite way of thinking when compared to OWS.
OWS wants to use the Govt as a tool to punish business, we want to free business from the corrupt and overbearing hand of Govt.

These two groups have absolutely nothing in common, they are diametrically opposed, one is full of tools for the commies, while the other is adults that want more freedom from Govt.

Quote from: kramarat on August 21, 2012, 04:50:32 PM
The idiots in OWS are stupid enough to think that Obama is on their side........................he's not. He never talks about going after corporate America, he talks about going after rich people. The bad guys that make over $200K a year.

I disagree. The OWS people actually seem quite informed on politics, and the money that buys it.

Quote from: kramarat on August 21, 2012, 05:09:23 PM
People that put the country way ahead of their political ambitions

And the financial ones. Thats one reason why I don't believe voting conservative will work. They seem to be pro corporations, corporate pay day. Thats not what we need.

I do agree though, we all need to try and to get on the same page, somewhere.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 21, 2012, 05:26:17 PM

I disagree. The OWS people actually seem quite informed on politics, and the money that buys it.




And the financial ones. Thats one reason why I don't believe voting conservative will work. They seem to be pro corporations, corporate pay day. Thats not what we need.

I do agree though, we all need to try and to get on the same page, somewhere.

That's why the Tea party is kicking out the RINO, they've been on the same page as the left for far too long.
We don't need anyone's help, we'll clean House on our own, those that didn't join in doing the Right thing will be left in the dust, were done bending over to please the left.
The left will be irrelevant after November.

QuoteI do agree though, we all need to try and to get on the same page, somewhere.

We will never be on the same page, because conservatives don't see businessmen in general, and corporations in particular, as some kind of boogie men.

Quote from: Solar on August 21, 2012, 05:21:47 PM
Nice try at twisting my words, but you failed big time.

I didnt twist your words. They're still there for whoever wants to read them.

Quote from: Solar on August 21, 2012, 05:21:47 PM
Business is not the problem, Govt writing laws forcing an uneven playing field.

Those laws are written by bought people.. Who buys them? Businesses... Big money... Thus creating an "uneven playing field".

Nice try to escape your words. You know, that's been a running theme for you, Solar. Say something and regret it, say something, deny it. Your arguments fall flat because of this, and seriously,  just because you talk more doesn't mean the content is any less lacking.

Quote from: Solar on August 21, 2012, 05:21:47 PM
There is Absolutely nothing legitimate about trying to bring down the country.

You've shown no proof to the majority of the OWS trying to "bring down our country", but you have dodged the proof Ive shown to their actual intentions.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/occupy-wall-street-isnt-a_b_1034418.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/occupy-wall-street-isnt-a_b_1034418.html)

"The Wall Street Journal conducted a poll recently that asked OWS supporters, "What frustrates you the most about the political process in the United States?" Only three percent said "the democratic/capitalist system." Three percent. The poll also asked supporters what they hope the movement will achieve and only four percent wanted the "dissolution" of the capitalist system."

Quote from: mdgiles on August 21, 2012, 05:32:37 PM
We will never be on the same page, because conservatives don't see businessmen in general, and corporations in particular, as some kind of boogie men.

68% of the American public seem to want less corporate collusion.  Just because we see a problem doesnt mean we think its a boogie man. It's just a problem that needs be solved.

If conservatives arent apart of that 68% then conservatives are fewer in numbers than I originally thought.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 21, 2012, 05:37:49 PM

68% of the American public seem to want less corporate collusion.  Just because we see a problem doesnt mean we think its a boogie man. It's just a problem that needs be solved.

If conservatives arent apart of that 68% then conservatives are fewer in numbers than I originally thought.

Government interference - in anything - invites collusion. The Left doesn't even seem to have a clue what a corporation is. They make it out to be some kind of conspiracy, when in fact it's nothing more than a way to organize a business and raise capital.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 21, 2012, 05:33:59 PM

I didnt twist your words. They're still there for whoever wants to read them.

You tried, but fell flat on your ass and Kari caught it as well.

QuoteThose laws are written by bought people.. Who buys them? Businesses... Big money... Thus creating an "uneven playing field".

And your answer is to attack business, ours is to kick the bastards out for extorting business.
That's all it is, Govt extortion of business, which is why they incorporate in the first place.

QuoteNice try to escape your words. You know, that's been a running theme for you, Solar. Say something and regret it, say something, deny it. Your arguments fall flat because of this, and seriously,  just because you talk more doesn't mean the content is any less lacking.

Escape my words? It's not my fault you're too thick to understand their meaning.
I'm not the one refusing to see reality, i'm the one trying to get you to take off the blinders.

QuoteYou've shown no proof to the majority of the OWS trying to "bring down our country", but you have dodged the proof Ive shown to their actual intentions.

You're a fool! You want us to believe a communist backed movement is somehow being usurped by a Nobler cause?
That's like claiming not all KKK members are racist.
What a rube!

Quotehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/occupy-wall-street-isnt-a_b_1034418.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/occupy-wall-street-isnt-a_b_1034418.html)

"The Wall Street Journal conducted a poll recently that asked OWS supporters, "What frustrates you the most about the political process in the United States?" Only three percent said "the democratic/capitalist system." Three percent. The poll also asked supporters what they hope the movement will achieve and only four percent wanted the "dissolution" of the capitalist system."

The poll was taken less than a month after the movement started, (Oct 18, 2011 ) so this proves nothing, considering most people hadn't yet seen what they were trying to accomplish.
Like rioting, bashing in businesses and general mayhem, which all came later.
So once again, you fail!

Quote from: mdgiles on August 21, 2012, 05:46:27 PM
Government interference - in anything - invites collusion. The Left doesn't even seem to have a clue what a corporation is. They make it out to be some kind of conspiracy, when in fact it's nothing more than a way to organize a business and raise capital.

Why does the obvious escape this guy, could it be a poor education?

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 21, 2012, 05:26:17 PM

I disagree. The OWS people actually seem quite informed on politics, and the money that buys it.

You have clearly not seen or talked to these people up close.

Quote from: Solar on August 21, 2012, 08:31:50 PM
Why does the obvious escape this guy, could it be a poor education?

Brain damage.

Quote from: taxed on August 21, 2012, 08:46:41 PM
Brain damage.

I can't blame it all on fish............

He's presenting himself like he's completely up to speed on current events and politics. If he gets his information from NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, etc., for all practical purposes, he knows everything there is to know, that's been put out by the mainstream media. I run into it, all the time.

There are an incredible amount of people, that believe that the Tea Party is a group of right wing extremists, that are motivated by racism and greed. It's how they've been portrayed from their inception.................including by Obama himself.

The only thing that OWS and the TP have in common, is anger and frustration. Fish is a lib, so he sees that as being the same. The democrats take advantage of that world view all the time......................they have to, to win elections. That's why the democrat party is so disjointed..................the only thing that keeps them together, is anger. OWS, angry gays, global warmers, angry feminists, angry minorities, angry environmentalists..........................

Quote from: kramarat on August 22, 2012, 03:17:42 AM
I can't blame it all on fish............

He's presenting himself like he's completely up to speed on current events and politics. If he gets his information from NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, etc., for all practical purposes, he knows everything there is to know, that's been put out by the mainstream media. I run into it, all the time.

There are an incredible amount of people, that believe that the Tea Party is a group of right wing extremists, that are motivated by racism and greed. It's how they've been portrayed from their inception.................including by Obama himself.

The only thing that OWS and the TP have in common, is anger and frustration. Fish is a lib, so he sees that as being the same. The democrats take advantage of that world view all the time......................they have to, to win elections. That's why the democrat party is so disjointed..................the only thing that keeps them together, is anger. OWS, angry gays, global warmers, angry feminists, angry minorities, angry environmentalists..........................

I think you're right on all counts, the problem is, he and other libs like him, refuse to hear the truth, it's that mental block that sets up like cement that makes one wonder, if as Taxed said, they are brain damaged, or simply proof that liberalism is a mental disorder.

When presented with solid evidence, they refuse to accept it, this slaps in the face of logic, it's as if the emotional picture their mind has painted of any given situation has complete control from that point further and there is no changing the fantasy they've created.

OWS good, Tea party evil!
Which group has everyone's best interests in mind, which one is fighting for personal freedoms, which group wants a smaller less intrusive govt.

Even though the answer is obvious, somehow the libs have created a scenario in their mind, that a communist based movement will accomplish all of that, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Quote
Even though the answer is obvious, somehow the libs have created a scenario in their mind, that a communist based movement will accomplish all of that, when nothing could be further from the truth.

It's Einstein's aphorism on insanity: "Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result". If government has created the problem then the answer is - more government. Almost all the problems OWS was complaining about, had at their base, government interference in almost every aspect of our lives. To which they answered; "we just don't have enough government". No wonder they were rioting, raping, and crapping in the streets - they'd lost their minds.

Quote from: mdgiles on August 22, 2012, 08:30:05 AM
It's Einstein's aphorism on insanity: "Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result". If government has created the problem then the answer is - more government. Almost all the problems OWS was complaining about, had at their base, government interference in almost every aspect of our lives. To which they answered; "we just don't have enough government". No wonder they were rioting, raping, and crapping in the streets - they'd lost their minds.

:biggrin:
It sounds to maniacal when it's all put into context, doesn't it?

Marxism has yet to work, only because it has not yet been applied correctly.
That is the mindset of these fools.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 21, 2012, 05:37:49 PM

68% of the American public seem to want less corporate collusion.  Just because we see a problem doesnt mean we think its a boogie man. It's just a problem that needs be solved.

If conservatives arent apart of that 68% then conservatives are fewer in numbers than I originally thought.

Government is at least as responsible for this collusion as corporations. I would say more so, since their policies create an atmosphere of "favorites", which emboldens some corporations while weakening others.

Quote from: CubaLibre on August 22, 2012, 10:15:33 AM
Government is at least as responsible for this collusion as corporations. I would say more so, since their policies create an atmosphere of "favorites", which emboldens some corporations while weakening others.

Why are people surprised? Government steps in and tells some businesses: "we will favor you while disfavoring your competition" and then we get mad at business for taking advantage of the situation they are presented. You assume they would rather be one of the disfavored ones? Should they stand on principle - and have the gangsters throw the bomb through their window?

Quote from: mdgiles on August 22, 2012, 10:40:43 AM
Why are people surprised? Government steps in and tells some businesses: "we will favor you while disfavoring your competition" and then we get mad at business for taking advantage of the situation they are presented. You assume they would rather be one of the disfavored ones? Should they stand on principle - and have the gangsters throw the bomb through their window?

I've explained that point several times, yet all I get is deer in the headlights look, as if I was speaking a foreign language.

Quote from: Solar on August 22, 2012, 11:13:11 AM
I've explained that point several times, yet all I get is deer in the headlights look, as if I was speaking a foreign language.

It is about like trying to explain to a blind person what the sky looks like.

Quote from: JustKari on August 22, 2012, 11:34:41 AM
It is about like trying to explain to a blind person what the sky looks like.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Difference being, the blind person is open to learning....

Quote from: Solar on August 22, 2012, 12:34:20 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Difference being, the blind person is open to learning....

fish has been pretty quiet. Maybe he's doing some learning.

Quote from: kramarat on August 22, 2012, 01:30:49 PM
fish has been pretty quiet. Maybe he's doing some learning.

I think he knows the truth, he just doesn't like it, so he's searching talking point memos from the DNC/OWS headquarters. :laugh:

Quote from: Solar on August 22, 2012, 01:40:26 PM
I think he knows the truth, he just doesn't like it, so he's searching talking point memos from the DNC/OWS headquarters. :laugh:

I wish OWS and the Tea Party were the same......................conservatives.

If I had the time, I could sit down and trace just about every problem we have, back to government.

The left wants to kill corporations!!!! Hell, pretty soon, the corporations and the people that work for them, will be the only ones paying taxes....................then who are they going to blame?

Quote from: kramarat on August 22, 2012, 01:57:40 PM
I wish OWS and the Tea Party were the same......................conservatives.

If I had the time, I could sit down and trace just about every problem we have, back to government.

The left wants to kill corporations!!!! Hell, pretty soon, the corporations and the people that work for them, will be the only ones paying taxes....................then who are they going to blame?

The top 1/2 %.........

Quote from: walkstall on August 22, 2012, 03:35:38 PM
The top 1/2 %.........

Yeah. The top 1/2 % will be the greedy people that still have jobs, and don't want their taxes raised. :mad:

Quote from: kramarat on August 22, 2012, 03:17:42 AM
There are an incredible amount of people, that believe that the Tea Party is a group of right wing extremists, that are motivated by racism and greed. It's how they've been portrayed from their inception.................including by Obama himself.

The only thing that OWS and the TP have in common, is anger and frustration. Fish is a lib, so he sees that as being the same.

I dont believe the tea party is full of people motivated by racism and greed. I do believe that both the tea party and the OWS have bad people that believe in falsehoods within there ranks, but I dont think they are the majority in either.

The tea party and the OWS not only have frustration in common but who they are frustrated with as well. We are all sick of greedy reps taking from the people and giving to corrupt businesses that buy them.

It's a simple line to draw, and one that needs be drawn, because as of now we are divided, and you know what happens to a house that's divided, don't you?

Quote from: kramarat on August 22, 2012, 01:30:49 PM
fish has been pretty quiet.

Gotta work, and go to school, brutha. :P

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 22, 2012, 06:48:01 PM

I dont believe the tea party is full of people motivated by racism and greed. I do believe that both the tea party and the OWS have bad people that believe in falsehoods within there ranks, but I dont think they are the majority in either.

The tea party and the OWS not only have frustration in common but who they are frustrated with as well. We are all sick of greedy reps taking from the people and giving to corrupt businesses that buy them.

It's a simple line to draw, and one that needs be drawn, because as of now we are divided, and you know what happens to a house that's divided, don't you?

You really have no concept of what the Tea Party is. I think we're done here.......................again.

Quote from: kramarat on August 23, 2012, 02:56:33 AM
You really have no concept of what the Tea Party is. I think we're done here.......................again.

No links to support his ideas that TP contains "bad people that believe in falsehoods within there ranks," which leads me to wonder where he/she/it gets that information.

Say, didja know that Michelle Obama is actually a modern-day Jack the Ripper, and that Hussein himself sodomizes entire packs of Cub Scouts---on the altar of local churches---during services?

No proof needed. You can take me WORD for it---can'tcha, Fish?

Bah.

Quote from: quiller on August 23, 2012, 03:05:13 AM
No links to support his ideas that TP contains "bad people that believe in falsehoods within there ranks," which leads me to wonder where he/she/it gets that information.

Say, didja know that Michelle Obama is actually a modern-day Jack the Ripper, and that Hussein himself sodomizes entire packs of Cub Scouts---on the altar of local churches---during services?

No proof needed. You can take me WORD for it---can'tcha, Fish?

Bah.

I think I've been able to simplify things to the point, that even fish could understand.................no links needed. :wink:

Hey fish, you think OWS and the TP are the same, because they're both angry. I want you to think about the following terms and definitions:

We The People-

Tea Party: We The People Of The United States of America.

OWS: We the people of the global underclass.


Mission Statement-

Tea Party: Limiting government. Repairing and restoring the US Constitution.

OWS: Toppling the corporate oligarchs, creating equality and fairness for the masses. (Marxism)

Methods Employed-

Tea Party: Conducting peaceful rallies in order to promote conservative principles, conservative candidates, and the founding principles of 
                 the USA.

OWS: Taking to the streets and forming encampments, in European style demonstrations. Disrupting commerce and antagonizing business
          owners. All while demanding change.


Maybe this will help you to understand why they are not the same.

Quote from: quiller on August 23, 2012, 03:05:13 AM
No links to support his ideas that TP contains "bad people that believe in falsehoods within there ranks," which leads me to wonder where he/she/it gets that information.

I personally know people that are among the tea party ranks who are racist. But if you need links to support the claim that "bad people that believe in falsehoods are among both the OWS and the tea party", then I can provide them..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/inge-marler-tea-party-arkansas-leader-racist-joke_n_1597334.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/inge-marler-tea-party-arkansas-leader-racist-joke_n_1597334.html)

"The remarks, which suggested that African-Americans are on welfare, were condemned by Tea Party"

Even the rest of the tea party had to "condemn" the remarks. That's one instance. There are more things out there that show some falsehoods as well, on both sides, you should do some research.   :thumbup:

Quote from: kramarat on August 23, 2012, 03:34:17 AM
Hey fish, you think OWS and the TP are the same

I believe they have common ground to meet on.  We either come together against a powerful enemy, or keep being robbed. Pretty simple really. If you need links to support the fact that we've been robbed I can supply those for you guys and gals as well. Just let me know. :)

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 05:43:48 AM

I personally know people that are among the tea party ranks who are racist. But if you need links to support the claim that "bad people that believe in falsehoods are among both the OWS and the tea party", then I can provide them..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/inge-marler-tea-party-arkansas-leader-racist-joke_n_1597334.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/inge-marler-tea-party-arkansas-leader-racist-joke_n_1597334.html)

"The remarks, which suggested that African-Americans are on welfare, were condemned by Tea Party"

Even the rest of the tea party had to "condemn" the remarks. That's one instance. There are more things out there that show some falsehoods as well, on both sides, you should do some research.   :thumbup:

There was nothing racist or crazy in your links.
The left has ushered huge numbers of blacks, (as well as anyone else they could sign up), into foodstamps and welfare, for decades. Obama has injected steroids into the programs. This is all done, not because of caring, but for votes.

Conservatives want to see everyone getting an education, going to work, and paying into taxes, rather than receiving them. For this, we are called racists. The comment was accurate.

Quote from: kramarat on August 23, 2012, 06:01:58 AM
There was nothing racist or crazy in your links.
The left has ushered huge numbers of blacks, (as well as anyone else they could sign up), into foodstamps and welfare, for decades. Obama has injected steroids into the programs. This is all done, not because of caring, but for votes.

Conservatives want to see everyone getting an education, going to work, and paying into taxes, rather than receiving them. For this, we are called racists. The comment was accurate.

Link:

This is not about compassion.

http://times247.com/articles/is-obama-starting-a-u-s-welfare-state (http://times247.com/articles/is-obama-starting-a-u-s-welfare-state)

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 05:46:18 AM
I believe they have common ground to meet on.  We either come together against a powerful enemy, or keep being robbed. Pretty simple really. If you need links to support the fact that we've been robbed I can supply those for you guys and gals as well. Just let me know. :)

We get it Fish, my enemies enemy, is my enemy as well.
Problem is, you want to attack the weapons manufacturer, while we want to stop the end buyer from using them against us.

Point is, we do not share the same enemy, nor do we share your end goal, we have absolutely nothing in common.
You attempt to align us on common ground, where we both kill black widow spiders, therefore we are on the same team.

As to your claim about racism and painting an entire group as racist, because one idiot said something, then I can infer that the entire left is racist since they all voted for a racist.
Would that not be fair?

Barack Obama "Typical White Person" Racist Statement Quote (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abPQ9kZe3ZA#)

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 05:43:48 AM

I personally know people that are among the tea party ranks who are racist. But if you need links to support the claim that "bad people that believe in falsehoods are among both the OWS and the tea party", then I can provide them..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/inge-marler-tea-party-arkansas-leader-racist-joke_n_1597334.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/inge-marler-tea-party-arkansas-leader-racist-joke_n_1597334.html)

"The remarks, which suggested that African-Americans are on welfare, were condemned by Tea Party"

Even the rest of the tea party had to "condemn" the remarks. That's one instance. There are more things out there that show some falsehoods as well, on both sides, you should do some research.   :thumbup:

I notice that you leave out the information that she was the leader of a small Tea Party group in North Central Arkansas, and also that even in this small group she was forced to step down because of this joke.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/15/inge-marler-arkansas-tea-party-richard-caster_n_1600376.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/15/inge-marler-arkansas-tea-party-richard-caster_n_1600376.html)
And I have a different meaning of "racist" than leftist do, and it consists of more than just telling an unfunny joke.

Quote from: Solar on August 23, 2012, 06:48:50 AM
As to your claim about racism and painting an entire group as racist, because one idiot said something

The problem is You cant even see that I didnt paint an entire group racist, I obviously called out one idiot in the group, even said that their actions were "condemned" by the group.  It was proof to the bad people within both groups believing in falsehoods claim.

Sadly you see what you want to see rather than what is.  We have a common enemy, and we are all mutually being stolen from.

Quote from: mdgiles on August 23, 2012, 09:50:14 AM
I notice that you leave out the information that she was the leader of a small Tea Party group in North Central Arkansas

Why would I need to point that out? If you'll read what has transpired thus far , and the reason I pointed it out in the first place,  you'll see that I simply said there are bad people that believe in falsehoods within the tea party and the OWS, but, like Ive said, I dont believe they are the majority. 


This is what happens when people get emotional, they look past actual statements and go off on unrelated tangents.

Simply put, Giles... Bad folk exist on both sides, just because that be the case doesn't mean we should't form an alliance to root out a common enemy. Greedy reps, corrupt businesses, and the legislation created by their union. They need to be stopped.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 01:05:30 PM


Why would I need to point that out? If you'll read what has transpired thus far , and the reason I pointed it out in the first place,  you'll see that I simply said there are bad people that believe in falsehoods within the tea party and the OWS, but, like Ive said, I dont believe they are the majority. 


This is what happens when people get emotional, they look past actual statements and go off on unrelated tangents.

Simply put, Giles... Bad folk exist on both sides, just because that be the case doesn't mean we should't form an alliance to root out a common enemy. Greedy reps, corrupt businesses, and the legislation created by their union. They need to be stopped.

On the contrary, you attempted to paint the Tea Party movement as "racist" based upon a bad joke. Perhaps you don't understand that although it's in bad taste, that doesn't necessarily make her or her group, "racist". And considering the amount of anti-Semitism that was openly displayed at OWS site after OWS site, I would be very careful about flinging around charges.

Quote from: mdgiles on August 23, 2012, 01:15:51 PM
On the contrary, you attempted to paint the Tea Party movement as "racist" based upon a bad joke.

Re-read without your emotional distraction. I said that there are bad people on both sides and after someone accused me of saying that without any proof I posted some proof. I even stated that "the rest of the tea party had to "condemn" the remarks."


Please look past your emotion and realize the words actually written, it would help in further conversation.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 02:47:01 PM

Re-read without your emotional distraction. I said that there are bad people on both sides and after someone accused me of saying that without any proof I posted some proof. I even stated that "the rest of the tea party had to "condemn" the remarks."


Please look past your emotion and realize the words actually written, it would help in further conversation.

Since you didn't post the outcome of her joke you didn't give all the facts, which gave a distorted picture. It was a small group, and even they felt her joke was in bad taste and forced her out, so obviously, her personal feelings weren't in line with those of the members of the group. OWS, OTOH, has been reported to be telling their members to cover up incidents of bad behavior by the "bad people" in their ranks. IOW, it was your usual crap. It would help in future conversations if you didn't attempt to prove your points by distorting incidents.

Quote from: mdgiles on August 23, 2012, 04:25:04 PM
Since you didn't post the outcome of her joke you didn't give all the facts, which gave a distorted picture.

No it wasn't. The fact is the rest of the tea party had to "condemn" the statement. I dont need to repeat the joke to show the picture. A person in the tea party said something that was deemed racist enough to be "condemned "by the tea party. Clear picture there.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 04:54:41 PM

No it wasn't. The fact is the rest of the tea party had to "condemn" the statement. I dont need to repeat the joke to show the picture. A person in the tea party said something that was deemed racist enough to be "condemned "by the tea party. Clear picture there.

It was a bad joke. It was not racist. I got it. The joke was about how the democrats convince people that they deserve free money, and anyone that wants to change the status quo, is a racist. The only reason it wasn't funny, is that it's true. The speaker could have easily used white, trailer trash, to make the point. WTF?

Quote from: kramarat on August 23, 2012, 05:02:09 PM
It was a bad joke. It was not racist.

The tea party seems to disagree with you, thus the "condemnation" of the racist remark. 

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 04:54:41 PM

No it wasn't. The fact is the rest of the tea party had to "condemn" the statement. I dont need to repeat the joke to show the picture. A person in the tea party said something that was deemed racist enough to be "condemned "by the tea party. Clear picture there.

It wasn't "racist", it was tasteless. You have no idea how tired I am of stupid assholes like you telling me what's "racist" and what isn't. I've been a black man for going on sixty-five years now, I don't need some white boy to tell me what, and what isn't, racist. Besides as I said you constantly distort. For example this is what I said :

QuoteSince you didn't post the outcome of her joke you didn't give all the facts, which gave a distorted picture.

I said nothing about you having to repeat the joke. You are either one lying POS or you can't read. Only some Leftoid like you, would consider a tasteless joke, "racist". I consider it "racist" that you think a black person can't deal with a bad joke.

This is for you Fish!
"http://www.youtube.com/embed/AbULBAjstBA"

Quote from: mdgiles on August 23, 2012, 05:11:43 PM
It wasn't "racist", it was tasteless. You have no idea how tired I am of stupid assholes like you telling me what's "racist" and what isn't. I've been a black man for going on sixty-five years now, I don't need some white boy to tell me what, and what isn't, racist. Besides as I said you constantly distort. For example this is what I said :I said nothing about you having to repeat the joke. You are either one lying POS or you can't read. Only some Leftoid like you, would consider a tasteless joke, "racist". I consider it "racist" that you think a black person can't deal with a bad joke.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Well said Giles, I think you hit the nail on the head....again!

Quote from: mdgiles on August 23, 2012, 05:31:34 PM
This is for you Fish!
"http://www.youtube.com/embed/AbULBAjstBA"

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Quote from: Solar on August 23, 2012, 05:40:24 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

And there's some more emotional outbursts.

Quote from: Solar on June 16, 2012, 07:52:17 AM
it's when emotion enters the equation you run into serious problems, especially where Govt is concerned.

:ohmy:

Quote from: mdgiles on August 23, 2012, 05:11:43 PM
It wasn't "racist", it was tasteless.

Yes it was tasteless, and racist being that she chose to use a black joke in order to "brake the ice". Not to mention the fact that She was also very elaborate in her morphing of the English language in order to try to mock further an African American family. 



And I never said black people couldn't deal with a racist/bad joke, Giles. So calm down, please reign in your emotional outbursts.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 05:55:32 PM


And there's some more emotional outbursts.


:ohmy:

Laughing at you  has nothing to do with an emotional outburst.
It's the fact that you insist there is somehow a connection between a communist movement and a legitimate movement that is laughable.
Your need to show that the Tea party is racist by association, a joke in and of itself.

Please, show me pictures of anything the Tea party has done that even remotely resembles that of the OWS group, like destroying public property, leaving garbage behind etc.

Quote from: Solar on August 23, 2012, 06:21:29 PM
Laughing at you  has nothing to do with an emotional outburst.

Laughing at someone in the middle of a someones conversation doesnt resemble a emotional outburst, IYO? Guess We're going to have to agree to disagree there, bud. ;)

Quote from: Solar on August 23, 2012, 06:21:29 PM

Your need to show that the Tea party is racist by association, a joke in and of itself.

That wasn't my intention at all, and if you could control your emotional outbursts you would be able to read whats really transpired here.  Thankfully its still there.

Quote from: Solar on August 23, 2012, 06:21:29 PM
Please, show me pictures of anything the Tea party has done that even remotely resembles that of the OWS group, like destroying public property, leaving garbage behind etc.

I have already stated that there are bad folk within the OWS and the tea party.  Granted, I havent heard any racist remarks from OWS rallies yet, but It could happen.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 05:09:20 PM

The tea party seems to disagree with you, thus the "condemnation" of the racist remark.

I think for myself. If the TP decided to throw this person to the curb; they were wrong.

I don't consider myself part of a club.

Despite mistakes, America has been the single greatest achievement in human history. It was due to some really smart men, sitting down and writing the Constution, Bill of Rights, etc.

It is a concept that I will not abandon as long as I breath.

You are not worth my time, to discuss a comparison with the OSW crowd.

Quote from: kramarat on August 23, 2012, 07:21:00 PM
You are not worth my time, to discuss a comparison with the OSW crowd.

You've been free to comment or not this whole time. Nice to hear you can think for yourself. Also glad the tea party thought differently, would've really wondered about there intentions had they not condemned that seemingly racist remark.


As far as the OWS crowd and the Tea party, there is a commonality, rather you deem me worthy to talk to about it with, or not.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 07:25:14 PM
You've been free to comment or not this whole time. Nice to hear you can think for yourself. Also glad the tea party thought differently, would've really wondered about there intentions had they not condemned that seemingly racist remark.


As far as the OWS crowd and the Tea party, there is a commonality, rather you deem me worthy to talk to about it with, or not.

The Tea Party is not that organized. One little chapter threw out one person, based on a knee jerk reaction. It was a failure on the chapter, not the person that made the joke.

Obama got to be president...................big fucking whoop. He's a proven Marxist/communist. I fully intend to remove him and his ilk, because they have no place in my country.....................not because he's half fucking black, but because he has no place in my country.

The only reason this asshole studied the Constitution, is to figure out ways to defeat it..........................legally. Wake the fuck up!!!

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 07:25:14 PM
You've been free to comment or not this whole time. Nice to hear you can think for yourself. Also glad the tea party thought differently, would've really wondered about there intentions had they not condemned that seemingly racist remark.


As far as the OWS crowd and the Tea party, there is a commonality, rather you deem me worthy to talk to about it with, or not.

These group share nothing in common other than the fact that humans comprise the two groups.  If OWS thought for one second that they could agree with the tea party, they would have attempted to join them, as the tea party has gained huge momentum in the last two years.  They didn't, why, because Adbusters, moveon.org, acorn, and SEIU, who are the creators if this "movement", are all ultra liberal/progressive/Marxist groups that are fundamentally opposed to what the tea party stands for.  I really don't care how many articles from huffpo you site, that is about as well taken as if one of us went to a lib site and linked to Glenn Beck as proof. 

You do this with every thread you post, you beat the dead horse until no one wants to talk to you.  You have changed no ones mind.  You certainly are not here to gain ideas.  What do you get out of coming here?  I am just curious about your motivation, as I really don't see much positive going on in these umpteen page threads.

The former Soviet Union already tried this. The doctor makes the same amount of money as the potato picker................fairness and equallity. What happened?

They will never admit it, but everyone got drunk on vodka..............................there was not a reason to work hard. Everyone made the same, whether they worked hard, or not. Whether they were a doctor or a potato picker.......................they were equal.

Everyone ended up broke........................except the government.

How many times do we have to see this system fail? How many times do we have to see America being painted as the bad guy?

Why in the hell would you want to trade in your uniqueness as an American, for failed socialist policies?

Please explain.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 07:25:14 PM
You've been free to comment or not this whole time. Nice to hear you can think for yourself. Also glad the tea party thought differently, would've really wondered about there intentions had they not condemned that seemingly racist remark.


As far as the OWS crowd and the Tea party, there is a commonality, rather you deem me worthy to talk to about it with, or not.

Fish, please quit comparing the two.  The Tea Party cleans up their messes after they organize (and bathe that same day), and they vote.  When you see a Tea Party, 100% of them are voters.  OWS trashes where they protest, provide good breeding conditions for lice, smell like dead animals, and don't vote.

Quote from: kramarat on August 23, 2012, 07:59:31 PM
The Tea Party is not that organized. One little chapter threw out one person, based on a knee jerk reaction. It was a failure on the chapter, not the person that made the joke.

Obama got to be president...................big fucking whoop. He's a proven Marxist/communist. I fully intend to remove him and his ilk, because they have no place in my country.....................not because he's half fucking black, but because he has no place in my country.

The only reason this asshole studied the Constitution, is to figure out ways to defeat it..........................legally. Wake the fuck up!!!

Blaming/singling out Obama is equivalent to putting your head in the sand. Corporations pay off your representation and create legislation that screw us all over. You're being robbed and upset because "Obama has no place in Your country" you need to re-prioritize. 

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 08:38:21 PM
Blaming/singling out Obama is equivalent to putting your head in the sand. Corporations pay off your representation and create legislation that screw us all over. You're being robbed and upset because "Obama has no place in Your country" you need to re-prioritize.

Government is the problem.

Quote from: JustKari on August 23, 2012, 08:25:17 PM

You do this with every thread you post, you beat the dead horse until no one wants to talk to you. 

People are still talking, granted a few are doing a horrible job at twisting my words here and there, but they're still talking none the less.  :)

Quote from: JustKari on August 23, 2012, 08:25:17 PM
These group share nothing in common other than the fact that humans comprise the two groups.

Corporations pay off your representation and create legislation that screw us all over. That is what we have in common, and, being that a huge portion of the population now understands that corporations, with the help of our reps, have stolen from us, they are upset.
Im sure neither the OWS or the Tea party want a re-peat of the big business bailouts/thievery. That is huge common ground. That is more than enough to align ourselves against corruption.


If you dont agree, ok, no worries, will debate something else sometime. But I dont see how you could disagree, that is unless you believe the tea party is ok with big business stealing from the American public by way of corrupt politicians? Cause that's certainly something the OWS says they're upset about.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 08:46:13 PM

People are still talking, granted a few are doing a horrible job at twisting my words here and there, but they're still talking none the less.  :)


Corporations pay off your representation and create legislation that screw us all over. That is what we have in common, and, being that a huge portion of the population now understands that corporations, with the help of our reps, have stolen from us, they are upset.
Im sure neither the OWS or the Tea party want a re-peat of the big business bailouts/thievery. That is huge common ground. That is more than enough to align ourselves against corruption.


If you dont agree, ok, no worries, will debate something else sometime. But I dont see how you could disagree, that is unless you believe the tea party is ok with big business stealing from the American public by way of corrupt politicians? Cause that's certainly something the OWS says they're upset about.

In this country, voters elect politicians.  Keep trying...

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 08:38:21 PM
Blaming/singling out Obama is equivalent to putting your head in the sand. Corporations pay off your representation and create legislation that screw us all over. You're being robbed and upset because "Obama has no place in Your country" you need to re-prioritize.

There's a difference, boy wonder.

Our typical politicians and corporate types, are looking to line their own pockets...................................Obama is looking to destroy our country. Big difference.

I'm not going to tell you that corporate greed doesn't exist. But I will tell you that our government made it possible.

Quote from: kramarat on August 23, 2012, 08:48:37 PM
There's a difference, boy wonder.

Our typical politicians and corporate types, are looking to line their own pockets...................................Obama is looking to destroy our country. Big difference.

I'm not going to tell you that corporate greed doesn't exist. But I will tell you that our government made it possible.

Exactly.

Quote from: taxed on August 23, 2012, 08:47:22 PM
In this country, voters elect politicians.  Keep trying...

So you dont believe that it requires big money to get elected in this country?   

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 08:54:41 PM

So you dont believe that it requires big money to get elected in this country?

Yes, you need money to run, but that wasn't your point, so please don't try to tie voters donating to their candidates to collusion.  If there are favors, it is because the politician (government) allows it.

Please start being honest.

Quote from: kramarat on August 23, 2012, 08:48:37 PM
Our typical politicians and corporate types, are looking to line their own pockets...................................Obama is looking to destroy our country. Big difference.

Thank you .... the "typical politician and corporate types are looking to line their own pockets" , glad we can agree there.

As far as Obama just looking to destroy our country, I disagree, I dont believe him someone willing to ruin his good thing, though I can see him being sold out to big insurance etc,  thus the mandate.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 09:01:36 PM


Thank you .... the "typical politician and corporate types are looking to line their own pockets" , glad we can agree there.

As far as Obama just looking to destroy our country, I disagree, I dont believe him someone willing to ruin his good thing, though I can see him being sold out to big insurance etc,  thus the mandate.

That is because you haven't done any research of Obama, nor do you understand this country.

Quote from: taxed on August 23, 2012, 08:57:32 PM

Please start being honest.

You need to take your own advice there.  My words are available for whoever to read, Im not being dishonest.

Quote from: taxed on August 23, 2012, 08:57:32 PM
Yes, you need money to run

And I am glad we can agree there as well! Good job,  Taxi! That is my point... Ive already posted in regards to the supreme court ruling that states corporations can now buy your representation without limit. That is one way, that in a big way is allowing for corruption.    :(

Quote from: taxed on August 23, 2012, 09:03:28 PM
That is because you haven't done any research of Obama, nor do you understand this country.

I disagree.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 09:07:12 PM
You need to take your own advice there.  My words are available for whoever to read, Im not being dishonest.


And I am glad we can agree there as well! Good job,  Taxi! That is my point... Ive already posted in regards to the supreme court ruling that states corporations can now buy your representation without limit. That is one way, that in a big way is allowing for corruption.    :(

No Fish.  It is legal to contribute to campaigns.  If the politician doesn't want to accept donations because they will have to engage in collusion, then they don't have to run.  The buck stops with the politician.  You are anti business and anti capitalist, so you want to focus on the company.

Stop partially quoting people and claiming it as agreement.  You still have not answered my question, so I will ask again.  What do you get out of coming here?

Quote from: JustKari on August 23, 2012, 09:15:07 PM
Stop partially quoting people and claiming it as agreement.  You still have not answered my question, so I will ask again.  What do you get out of coming here?

A good ass kicking....

Quote from: taxed on August 23, 2012, 09:11:55 PM
No Fish.  It is legal to contribute to campaigns.  If the politician doesn't want to accept donations because they will have to engage in collusion, then they don't have to run.  The buck stops with the politician.  You are anti business and anti capitalist, so you want to focus on the company.

Ive been focusing on the companies and the bought reps.  And your "they don't have to run" argument doesn't fix the problem.  Our system requires big money to play in, just saying they can choose to not run isn't going to work. Like Rat said "Our typical politicians and corporate types, are looking to line their own pockets".

Quote from: JustKari on August 23, 2012, 09:15:07 PM
Stop partially quoting people and claiming it as agreement. 

as explained elsewhere already, I don't have to quote everything as long as their words are in context. I can quote what I agree with.. Just because you may not like what we are agreeing on doesn't mean it's wrong.

Quote from: JustKari on August 23, 2012, 09:15:07 PM
What do you get out of coming here?

Conversation. And Thus far Ive found some things we agree on. 

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 09:17:45 PM
Ive been focusing on the companies and the bought reps.  And your "they don't have to run" argument doesn't fix the problem.  Our system requires big money to play in, just saying they can choose to not run isn't going to work. Like Rat said "Our typical politicians and corporate types, are looking to line their own pockets".

Again, you are simply anti-capitalist...  Politicians raise taxes, own the military, and create laws. A company can try to bribe all they want -- it is up to the politician to agree.

Quote from: taxed on August 23, 2012, 09:21:16 PM
Again, you are simply anti-capitalist...  Politicians raise taxes, own the military, and create laws. A company can try to bribe all they want -- it is up to the politician to agree.

Again, no Im not.


Politicians give bailout money thats paid for by the people and given to big businesses. Those same businesses are putting money in the pockets of the politicians. Both the politician and the businesses willing to steal from the people are guilty.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 09:25:40 PM
Again, no Im not.


Politicians give bailout money thats paid for by the people and given to big businesses. Those same businesses are putting money in the pockets of the politicians. Both the politician and the businesses willing to steal from the people are guilty.

No, you are like an OWS protester.  You hate business and the country.  You're not alone -- so does Obama.

Quote from: taxed on August 23, 2012, 09:27:37 PM
No, you are like an OWS protester.  You hate business and the country.  You're not alone -- so does Obama.

Obviously you're just going to look past things actually stated to spread lies about me. Either way,  I am glad we could at least agree on something-

Quote from: taxed on August 23, 2012, 08:57:32 PM
Yes, you need money to run

:thumbsup:

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 09:32:21 PM

Obviously your going to look past things actually stated to spread lies about me. But Im glad we could agree on something-



:thumbsup:

My tolerance for your idiocy is very thin.  Stop acting like a child and be a man and discuss.  Needing money to run has nothing to do with choosing to engage in collusion.

Quote from: taxed on August 23, 2012, 09:33:57 PM
My tolerance for your idiocy is very thin.  Stop acting like a child and be a man and discuss.  Needing money to run has nothing to do with choosing to engage in collusion.

My tolerance for your lies is running low as well.
Thus far you've said that I hate this country, called me names, and looked past words written. So, honestly, You saying that Im acting like a child is easy projection to spot.


Based on your inability to be honest here, and civil, I'll stop talking with you now and keep chatting with those that can be civil, however, I am glad we agreed on something. :)

Quote from: taxed on August 23, 2012, 08:57:32 PM
Yes, you need money to run

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 08:38:21 PM
Blaming/singling out Obama is equivalent to putting your head in the sand. Corporations pay off your representation and create legislation that screw us all over. You're being robbed and upset because "Obama has no place in Your country" you need to re-prioritize.

I don't need to reprioritize anything, idiot. If Hillary or Bill were president, this conversation might make some sense.

Obama's single minded goal, is to bring our country to it's knees. To destroy the country from within. It's people like you that put him there.

There are several fact filled books on the subject..............The Amateur, The Great Destroyer, and others. Read them.

The facts are building up quickly. At the very least, Obama and his team are guilty of treason. At worst, domestic terrorists. Carrying out their agenda right under our noses.

You need to put your thinking cap on, fish.

This administration is directly responsible for the murder of a border patrol agent, along with hundreds of Mexican civilians...................and used executive priveledge to cover it up.

This administration has placed people from the Muslim Brotherhood within our government, and given them carte blanche access to sensitive information.

This administration is intentionally leaking information that could get our soldiers and their families murdered.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/controversial-ad-blasts-obama-for-intelligence-leaks/article/2505146 (http://washingtonexaminer.com/controversial-ad-blasts-obama-for-intelligence-leaks/article/2505146)

What else does Obama have to do, to convince you that he hates this country?

Since getting through to people like you, is impossible, the only suggestion I can make, is to look at everything Obama has done, and pretend it was Bush.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 23, 2012, 06:45:40 PM

Laughing at someone in the middle of a someones conversation doesnt resemble a emotional outburst, IYO? Guess We're going to have to agree to disagree there, bud. ;)

When one can't see they've made a fool of themselves in the midst of a conversation and continues to do so, has nothing to do with emotion, much like the lib claiming bravery, only to publicly wet himself, it's still funny and no emotion is required on the part of the audience to see the humor.
Now go change your underwear...

QuoteThat wasn't my intention at all, and if you could control your emotional outbursts you would be able to read whats really transpired here.  Thankfully its still there.

I have already stated that there are bad folk within the OWS and the tea party.  Granted, I havent heard any racist remarks from OWS rallies yet, but It could happen.

You pull up one bad joke by an insignificant person in some obscure town as proof of racism?
Just how stupid do you think we are? There are millions of Tea party members in the country, and you try and paint a large portion as racist because one person told a joke?
How many weeks did the country endure rioting in the streets by the OWS crowd, a crowd of people that Hate Yews and accuse them of being so called Banksters?
How many business suffered under the affliction that is OWS, people that worked hard to build a life, only to have it trashed by a bunch of unruly kids being influenced by communists?
The term for these people is "Useful Idiots, Tools" of the communists, in the vein of Unions, they are all one in the same.

Again you claim you weren't claiming the Tea party was racist, then turn around and claim you haven't seen any racism in the OWS movement.
Dwell on that for a moment, because either you are outright lying, or too stupid to see the hypocrisy in your words.

One other point that completely alludes you, is the fact that every Tea rally cleaned up after itself, no trash, no torn up property, no rioting, no disruption of business, no fighting with police, no public displays of sexual acts, no public defecation, no rapes, no drugs, Hell, no idiots....
Shall I go on?
Now one more time, show me pictures of the Tea party acting like Anarchists!

QuoteNow one more time, show me pictures of the Tea party acting like Anarchists!

He won't be able to do it. The Tea Party is adults with a valid grievance, come to petition their government for redress. OWS is a bunch of spoiled children, holding a public temper tantrum. 

Quote from: mdgiles on August 24, 2012, 06:42:49 AM
He won't be able to do it. The Tea Party is adults with a valid grievance, come to petition their government for redress. OWS is a bunch of spoiled children, holding a public temper tantrum.

Correct, yet somehow he sees a commonality? :rolleyes:

It's funny that a totally grassroots movement somehow shares a common respect for other peoples property, this is one of the values that libs don't seem to get.
Conservatives work from a shared anchor of respect for law and their common man, as well as a shared set of values such as the Ten Commandments, even if we aren't Christians, we still share a commonality in a social contract of respect for our fellow man.

Quote from: Solar on August 24, 2012, 07:50:55 AM
Correct, yet somehow he sees a commonality? :rolleyes:

It's funny that a totally grassroots movement somehow shares a common respect for other peoples property, this is one of the values that libs don't seem to get.
Conservatives work from a shared anchor of respect for law and their common man, as well as a shared set of values such as the Ten Commandments, even if we aren't Christians, we still share a commonality in a social contract of respect for our fellow man.

They don't get it because Democraptic "grass roots movements" are mostly astroturf. How often have you seen a Democraptic demonstration where everyone is wearing the same t-shirt, carrying mass produced signs. Because their "grass roots" are fake they assume that the Tea Party must also be fake. What drives them crazy is they can't figure out how it's done. And how does the "Tea Party Leadership" get them to act so orderly?  :rolleyes:

Quote from: mdgiles on August 24, 2012, 08:12:35 AM
They don't get it because Democraptic "grass roots movements" are mostly astroturf. How often have you seen a Democraptic demonstration where everyone is wearing the same t-shirt, carrying mass produced signs. Because their "grass roots" are fake they assume that the Tea Party must also be fake. What drives them crazy is they can't figure out how it's done. And how does the "Tea Party Leadership" get them to act so orderly?  :rolleyes:

I have officially been around children too long.  I sat here giggling like a schoolgirl at democrapic movement.  Yeah.  I. Am. Four.  :ttoung:

Quote from: mdgiles on August 24, 2012, 08:12:35 AM
They don't get it because Democraptic "grass roots movements" are mostly astroturf. How often have you seen a Democraptic demonstration where everyone is wearing the same t-shirt, carrying mass produced signs. Because their "grass roots" are fake they assume that the Tea Party must also be fake. What drives them crazy is they can't figure out how it's done. And how does the "Tea Party Leadership" get them to act so orderly?  :rolleyes:

:biggrin: :biggrin:
The common thread of decency that binds us all together. This simple trait escapes a lib that views stealing from others through taxation, is somehow the right thing to do.

How screwed up are ones principals, that they can justify theft?

Quote from: Solar on August 24, 2012, 05:33:22 AM
You pull up one bad joke by an insignificant person in some obscure town as proof of racism?

One racist joke by a leader of a tea party sect that had to be "condemned" by the rest of the tea party.. So yes, that was proof of racism. 

Quote from: Solar on August 24, 2012, 05:33:22 AM
One other point that completely alludes you, is the fact that every Tea rally cleaned up after itself, no trash, no torn up property, no rioting, no disruption of business, no fighting with police, no public displays of sexual acts, no public defecation, no rapes, no drugs, Hell, no idiots....

And Ive already said that there are good and bad within both OWS and the Tea party. Im not arguing that there isn't. But I disagree that there are no idiots among the tea party, already been proof shown to the contrary of that.

Quote from: mdgiles on August 24, 2012, 06:42:49 AM
He won't be able to do it. The Tea Party is adults with a valid grievance, come to petition their government for redress. OWS is a bunch of spoiled children, holding a public temper tantrum.

http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-demographic-survey-results-will-surprise-you.php (http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-demographic-survey-results-will-surprise-you.php)


Highly educated
92.1% of the sample reported "some college, a college degree, or a graduate degree."

They have jobs
50.4% reported full-time employment, and "an additional 20.4% were employed part-time."
Age varies widely
As Rutfkoff explained: "While 49% of protesters are under 30, more than 28% are 40 or older," roughly coinciding with Cordero-Guzmán's findings.








It amazes me how many will allow an opportunity to really stand up to corruption allude them simply because they dislike a group of people. Find the commonality and face off against the common enemy, afterward,, if we must, we can go back to fighting each other once again. As of right now though, corporations are stealing from us by using our supposed representation in orderr to shovel them our tax dollars.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 24, 2012, 09:31:20 AM

One racist joke by a leader of a tea party sect that had to be "condemned" by the rest of the tea party.. So yes, that was proof of racism.

So. By by YOUR standard, if one tasteless joke, makes all Tea Party members "racist"; since the person who told the joke was white, I would be correct in saying all white people - INCLUDING YOU - are racist. Which brings up the question of why we should listen to or respect the opinions of an "obvious" racist like you?

Quote
And Ive already said that there are good and bad within both OWS and the Tea party. Im not arguing that there isn't. But I disagree that there are no idiots among the tea party, already been proof shown to the contrary of that.

As I note above you want to paint with a broad brush in the case of the Tea Party, while letting the OWS people - where the bad behavior was far more widespread - off the hook as the acts of "a few bad apples".

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 24, 2012, 09:31:20 AM

One racist joke by a leader of a tea party sect that had to be "condemned" by the rest of the tea party.. So yes, that was proof of racism. 


And Ive already said that there are good and bad within both OWS and the Tea party. Im not arguing that there isn't. But I disagree that there are no idiots among the tea party, already been proof shown to the contrary of that.

See Reply #267, I see no reason to reiterate the point.
The OWS were all about being in your face and an obnoxious message of hate, unlike the Tea party rallying under a single ideal of shrinking Govt.

Why is it you can't see the obvious? Seriously, do you have some sort of break from reality, or is it just a liberal trait?
Can you answer that honesty, I really am trying to understand why you block out the obvious.

I find it very interesting to note that, in this more current OWS polling data, that the numbers roughly match what fish posted about age, but MOST interesting is the data on the salaries made by the people actually polled, in a nutshell, the poll is bogus.

The data suggest that %30 of the OWS population make more than $50,000.  Just over $50,000 per annum is the national average for wages in the united states.  Another %30 are in college full time, while you will have some high earners going to college full time, it is actually a lot more common in the $20,000 to $35,000 bracket, not represented in the wage section.  What this tells me, is that close to %60 of they people they polled, were people they felt comfortable talking to.  The thing that makes just about every published poll out their completely false, is that it must be an absolutely RANDOM sampling of people in order to be accurate, if it isn't, your data will always be skewed to look roughly like the people performing the poll.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/occupy-wall-street-statistics-and-demographics (http://www.statisticbrain.com/occupy-wall-street-statistics-and-demographics)

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 24, 2012, 09:37:14 AM

http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-demographic-survey-results-will-surprise-you.php (http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-demographic-survey-results-will-surprise-you.php)


Highly educated
92.1% of the sample reported "some college, a college degree, or a graduate degree."

They have jobs
50.4% reported full-time employment, and "an additional 20.4% were employed part-time."
Age varies widely
As Rutfkoff explained: "While 49% of protesters are under 30, more than 28% are 40 or older," roughly coinciding with Cordero-Guzmán's findings.








It amazes me how many will allow an opportunity to really stand up to corruption allude them simply because they dislike a group of people. Find the commonality and face off against the common enemy, afterward,, if we must, we can go back to fighting each other once again. As of right now though, corporations are stealing from us by using our supposed representation in orderr to shovel them our tax dollars.

Sheesh!!! It's not even a real survey! :rolleyes:

One of the ways to measure increasing interest and levels of participation and involvement in Occupy Wall Street is by tracking the level of traffic to the main site for the protests occupywallst.org. Traffic on the site averaged close to 400,000 visits per day for the week of October 2. On October 5, for example, there were close to 350,346 visits to occupywallst.org and a survey was added to the site to measure levels of interest and involvement in Occupy Wall Street and to get a sense of the characteristics of persons visiting the site. Close to 1,890 persons began the survey and we have completed information on 1,619 respondents who answered the survey that was put up on the main occupywallstreet site.

Quote from: mdgiles on August 24, 2012, 09:46:52 AM
So. By by YOUR standard, if one tasteless joke, makes all Tea Party members "racist";

When did I say that one racist joke makes all the tea party racist?  LOL, You wont be able to find it, cause I didn't. Ive actually said that there are bad people within both the OWS and the tea party but that they are not the majority.

Quote from: JustKari on August 24, 2012, 01:06:47 PM
The thing that makes just about every published poll out their completely false, is that it must be an absolutely RANDOM sampling of people in order to be accurate, if it isn't, your data will always be skewed to look roughly like the people performing the poll.

The thing is I dont care if the people that are OWS are young or old, because what they say they're upset with, "corporate greed and bought representatives are stealing from us", is what matters. That's why Im pushing for a union of the two groups. Ive talked to OWS folk, as well as Tea party people, and they all seem to be upset about the fact that-

Quote from: kramarat on August 23, 2012, 08:48:37 PM
Our typical politicians and corporate types, are looking to line their own pockets.

Quote from: Solar on August 24, 2012, 01:57:54 PM
Sheesh!!! It's not even a real survey! :rolleyes:

"A demographic of the Occupy Wall Street protest movement is emerging and researchers say for every younger person there is someone in their 40s"

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-shows-politics-age-diversity/1#.UDhzRtaPWUM (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-shows-politics-age-diversity/1#.UDhzRtaPWUM)



:smile:

People are still talking up OWS?

That's like trying to convince people Phil Collins is still cool.....

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 24, 2012, 11:42:21 PM

"A demographic of the Occupy Wall Street protest movement is emerging and researchers say for every younger person there is someone in their 40s"

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-shows-politics-age-diversity/1#.UDhzRtaPWUM (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-shows-politics-age-diversity/1#.UDhzRtaPWUM)



:smile:

Get real, Updated 2011-11-01 6:45 PM ?
Not only is it an old article, but one that has been regurgitated because the cause of the communist movement is being exposed and people simply don't want to be associated with them.
On the obverse, the Tea party is growing. What does that tell ya?

Quote from: Solar on August 25, 2012, 06:21:02 AM
Get real, Updated 2011-11-01 6:45 PM ?
Not only is it an old article, but one that has been regurgitated because the cause of the communist movement is being exposed and people simply don't want to be associated with them.
On the obverse, the Tea party is growing. What does that tell ya?

The article was to show the demographic/age diversity of the OWS movement, just because the people rallied last year doesnt take away from the point that the people within were not just "kids" like you guys were trying to claim.

Either way, the people are still upset about corporate greed and government corruption, that is the commonality that both groups should grasp in order to form an alliance that could really make a difference.

http://www.nmtelegram.com/2012/04/17/the-incredible-shrinking-tea-party/ (http://www.nmtelegram.com/2012/04/17/the-incredible-shrinking-tea-party/)


"Tea Party organizers say they are working behind the scenes by writing emails to their representatives in Congress and giving them phone calls — but the dwindling numbers and attention on their trademark event has to be worrying to organizers and Republican candidates looking to harness the enthusiasm as they did in 2010."



Fact is, Solar, we Americans have very short attention spans, and that helps our corrupt reps take from us to give to corrupt businesses, thats why we need to figure out a way to combine forces, as well as motivate the masses.. Or, sadly, we're just going to keep getting the short end. 

Quote from: The Boo Man... on August 25, 2012, 12:50:22 AM
People are still talking up OWS?

That's like trying to convince people Phil Collins is still cool.....

Phil Collins "Gorilla Drummer" Cadbury Ad (Dairy Milk) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy52yueBX_s#)

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 25, 2012, 11:19:08 PM


The article was to show the demographic/age diversity of the OWS movement, just because the people rallied last year doesnt take away from the point that the people within were not just "kids" like you guys were trying to claim.

Either way, the people are still upset about corporate greed and government corruption, that is the commonality that both groups should grasp in order to form an alliance that could really make a difference.

How thick can you be? I've explained, that one group is angry at rich people and corporate entities and want Govt to do something about it, while the other group wants to strip Govt of being able to interfere with business, so they are kicking people out of govt that don't agree.
There is no common ground between the two.

You hate murderers, I hate murderers, but that in no way makes us on the same side.

Quote
http://www.nmtelegram.com/2012/04/17/the-incredible-shrinking-tea-party/ (http://www.nmtelegram.com/2012/04/17/the-incredible-shrinking-tea-party/)


"Tea Party organizers say they are working behind the scenes by writing emails to their representatives in Congress and giving them phone calls — but the dwindling numbers and attention on their trademark event has to be worrying to organizers and Republican candidates looking to harness the enthusiasm as they did in 2010."

If you actually understood Conservatives, you would understand just how out of touch the author of the article is.
They said the very same thing before the mid term elections, and they're saying the same now, only to be dumbfounded come Nov.

Quote
Fact is, Solar, we Americans have very short attention spans, and that helps our corrupt reps take from us to give to corrupt businesses, thats why we need to figure out a way to combine forces, as well as motivate the masses.. Or, sadly, we're just going to keep getting the short end.

That would be great, but it's never going to happen, these two groups work off of a different set of ethics and values, one was brought up to respect people and their property, while the other group learned to despise anyone with money and power, in other words, they hate Capitalists, while the other distrusts govt.

One wants to change Govt, the other wants to give Govt more power.
There is also the age difference in the groups, one is older and wiser for one simple reason, experience, while the other is extremely impressionable and susceptible to being swayed by their emotions.

Take you for example, you are very emotional about the cause of the OWS and are trying to imprint those emotions on both groups as if they have a commonality.
Step back and look at the two, one is being played by a Marxist group with ulterior motives, while the other is uniting under one premise, shrink Govt, yet you seem unable to grasp these concepts, simply because you have neither the experience, or a ruler in which to measure the movements against in time by decades.

Quote from: Solar on August 26, 2012, 06:57:53 AM
How thick can you be? I've explained, that one group is angry at rich people and corporate entities and want Govt to do something about it, while the other group wants to strip Govt of being able to interfere with business, so they are kicking people out of govt that don't agree.

How bought must you be that you'd deny the fact that corrupt business is buying the politicians , not to mention the fact that money is what buys a reps ability to gain office.

Quote from: Solar on August 26, 2012, 06:57:53 AM
You hate murderers, I hate murderers, but that in no way makes us on the same side.If you actually understood Conservatives, you would understand just how out of touch the author of the article is.
They said the very same thing before the mid term elections, and they're saying the same now, only to be dumbfounded come Nov.

Come Nov nothing will change, cause we are segregated by people that believe one side is completely right and the other side is completely wrong. We are being played. It's your emotions and the emotions of those on the other side that keep us from finding common ground and stomping out a real terror to our democracy.

Quote from: Solar on August 26, 2012, 06:57:53 AM
Take you for example, you are very emotional about the cause of the OWS and are trying to imprint those emotions on both groups as if they have a commonality.
Step back and look at the two, one is being played by a Marxist group with ulterior motives, while the other is uniting under one premise, shrink Govt, yet you seem unable to grasp these concepts, simply because you have neither the experience, or a ruler in which to measure the movements against in time by decades.

To speak on such subjects with no emotion would be strange because we're not computers, but its you guys that have called others names and spoken from true unbalanced emotion. Im simply speaking on an obvious point about a real common enemy.  You seem to believe that the evil Liberals are the ones that are full of emotion and conservatives hold all the logic, though you look past many of your illogical arguments and all the emotions you and your ilk display. Its, to be frank, hypocritical.

Quote from: Solar on August 26, 2012, 06:57:53 AM
Step back and look at the two, one is being played by a Marxist group with ulterior motives, while the other is uniting under one premise, shrink Govt, yet you seem unable to grasp these concepts, simply because you have neither the experience, or a ruler in which to measure the movements against in time by decades.

Step back, and look at the two, one is being played, and so is the other. We are all being played by a small group of people, in comparison, and we're all being stolen from by a snake with several heads. That's the problem, it has the same base, but keeps us at each others throats by spitting lies in every direction.

We will eventually have to drop the "I want little government" and " I want no corporations" arguments and get down to the real issue.  Corrupt government + corrupt corporations+ segregated public= economic dictatorship.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 26, 2012, 11:49:02 AM

How bought must you be that you'd deny the fact that corrupt business is buying the politicians , not to mention the fact that money is what buys a reps ability to gain office.

This is the whole purpose behind the Tea party movement, stripping politicians of power, shrinking govt and usurping their power over business.
Remove that and there would be no issue, but to castrate business in an effort to control corruption is simply stupid, you merely give more control to Govt over business, in turn exacerbating the problem.
Can you not see that?

QuoteCome Nov nothing will change, cause we are segregated by people that believe one side is completely right and the other side is completely wrong. We are being played. It's your emotions and the emotions of those on the other side that keep us from finding common ground and stomping out a real terror to our democracy.

Again, there is only one solution, shrink Govt.

QuoteTo speak on such subjects with no emotion would be strange because we're not computers, but its you guys that have called others names and spoken from true unbalanced emotion. Im simply speaking on an obvious point about a real common enemy.  You seem to believe that the evil Liberals are the ones that are full of emotion and conservatives hold all the logic, though you look past many of your illogical arguments and all the emotions you and your ilk display. Its, to be frank, hypocritical.

Logic son, we want to fix the problem both parties created solely for one reason, power.
But to ignore the left and their need for social programs, programs that are killing us is simply blind, and yes, they are all about emotion, nothing less.

QuoteStep back, and look at the two, one is being played, and so is the other. We are all being played by a small group of people, in comparison, and we're all being stolen from by a snake with two several heads. That's the problem, it has the same base, but keeps us at each others throats by spitting lies in every direction.

Why are you under the impression that the Tea party is being controlled by an external force, like that of the OWS?

QuoteWe will eventually have to drop the "I want no little government" and " I want no corporations" arguments and get down to the real issue.  Corrupt government + corrupt corporations+ segregated public= economic dictatorship.

Think for a moment, where does the power come from, that these so called corrupt corporations get their power?
Critical thinking, I repeat, Critical Thinking!

Quote from: Solar on August 26, 2012, 12:00:46 PM
Think for a moment, where does the power come from, that these so called corrupt corporations get their power?
Critical thinking, I repeat, Critical Thinking!

Apply logic and think for a moment, Solar. Step out of the box and realize that the power provided by corrupt government to corrupt corporations will not simply go away by shrinking government. Lessening restrictions on proven corrupt businesses will just allow for more corruption, especially with the current laws in place. 

The problem is that you seem to want to blame government for their corrupt ways but wish to  allow those that supply the means of corruption a pass.  If you'll think logically you'll realize that it's the collusion of corrupt businesses and those 'that want to line their pockets in government', Like Rat said, that's the real problem. 

Now, should we give more control over business to government? No, we should, however, give more control over businesses, the ones that take taxpayer money, to the people. If we're going to be forced into shoveling our tax dollars to thieving industries than we should at least receive royalties or something.  :thumbup:


As far as the tea party being controlled, and the OWS, its as I said, they're being controlled by the lies they follow. The "less government" / "evil corporations" mind sets, or even the "Obama's a Marxist that hates the country so you need to vote for Romney even though you dont like him, cause he's the lesser of the two evils"... The list goes on, and the lies go on.  Sadly this is how the powers that be control us, they keep us picking corrupt reps by way of our emotions rather than allowing for a less divided Nation. We're our own enemy and the ones that profit are thankful for it.

Are there good beliefs within the tea party? Yes.. Are there good beliefs within the OWS? Yes... We just need to combine those good things, and by doing so I believe will be much better off.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 26, 2012, 03:15:04 PM


Apply logic and think for a moment, Solar. Step out of the box and realize that the power provided by corrupt government to corrupt corporations will not simply go away by shrinking government. Lessening restrictions on proven corrupt businesses will just allow for more corruption, especially with the current laws in place. 

The problem is that you seem to want to blame government for their corrupt ways but wish to  allow those that supply the means of corruption a pass.  If you'll think logically you'll realize that it's the collusion of corrupt businesses and those 'that want to line their pockets in government', Like Rat said, that's the real problem. 

Now, should we give more control over business to government? No, we should, however, give more control over businesses, the ones that take taxpayer money, to the people. If we're going to be forced into shoveling our tax dollars to thieving industries than we should at least receive royalties or something. 

Who writes the laws that governs business?
Critical thinking son.

QuoteAs far as the tea party being controlled, and the OWS, its as I said, they're being controlled by the lies they follow. The "less government" / "evil corporations" mind sets, or even the "Obama's a Marxist that hates the country so you need to vote for Romney even though you dont like him, cause he's the lesser of the two evils"... The list goes on, and the lies go on.  Sadly this is how the powers that be control us, they keep us picking corrupt reps by way of our emotions rather than allowing for a less divided Nation. We're our own enemy and the ones that profit are thankful for it.

Are there good beliefs within the tea party? Yes.. Are there good beliefs within the OWS? Yes... We just need to combine those good things, and by doing so I believe will be much better off.

I give up, you just don't get it, I gave you solid proof as to what is behind the OWS movement, yet you continue to claim the Tea party is backed by lies, yet can't seem to come up with any evidence, so get busy, show me that proof, or STFU!

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 26, 2012, 03:15:04 PM


Apply logic and think for a moment, Solar. Step out of the box and realize that the power provided by corrupt government to corrupt corporations will not simply go away by shrinking government. Lessening restrictions on proven corrupt businesses will just allow for more corruption, especially with the current laws in place. 

The problem is that you seem to want to blame government for their corrupt ways but wish to  allow those that supply the means of corruption a pass.  If you'll think logically you'll realize that it's the collusion of corrupt businesses and those 'that want to line their pockets in government', Like Rat said, that's the real problem. 

Now, should we give more control over business to government? No, we should, however, give more control over businesses, the ones that take taxpayer money, to the people. If we're going to be forced into shoveling our tax dollars to thieving industries than we should at least receive royalties or something.  :thumbup:


As far as the tea party being controlled, and the OWS, its as I said, they're being controlled by the lies they follow. The "less government" / "evil corporations" mind sets, or even the "Obama's a Marxist that hates the country so you need to vote for Romney even though you dont like him, cause he's the lesser of the two evils"... The list goes on, and the lies go on.  Sadly this is how the powers that be control us, they keep us picking corrupt reps by way of our emotions rather than allowing for a less divided Nation. We're our own enemy and the ones that profit are thankful for it.

Are there good beliefs within the tea party? Yes.. Are there good beliefs within the OWS? Yes... We just need to combine those good things, and by doing so I believe will be much better off.

Fish, this isn't a place for you to wax about your Marxism and anti-capitalism.  You need to start discussing.

Quote from: taxed on August 26, 2012, 11:15:17 PM
Fish, this isn't a place for you to wax about your Marxism and anti-capitalism.  You need to start discussing.

That would require him to absorb what the other person is saying.
He has yet to see that OWS and Tea party have absolutely nothing in common, other than we are humans, and even that is open for debate after seeing some of the OWS protests.

Quote from: Solar on August 26, 2012, 04:36:26 PM
I gave you solid proof as to what is behind the OWS movement

You havent given solid proof of that at all. And you've argued horribly, calling names and trying to belittle your opposition rather than supplying valid points.

Solar, You need to re-read what you've actually had to allow, and whats transpired here, I hope eventually you will see reality.

Quote from: taxed on August 26, 2012, 11:15:17 PM
Fish, this isn't a place for you to wax about your Marxism and anti-capitalism.  You need to start discussing.

This thread isnt a place for you to lie about me, Taxi. From the start you've lied and called me names. So please, either argue like an adult or go away. I hope you choose the first rather than the latter, I bet you have some good stuff to offer once you get through this strange emotional finger pointing.  :)

Quote from: Solar on August 26, 2012, 04:36:26 PM
Who writes the laws that governs business?

Ok again, back to the conversation...


"Apply logic and think for a moment, Solar. Step out of the box and realize that the power provided by corrupt government to corrupt corporations will not simply go away by shrinking government. Lessening restrictions on proven corrupt businesses will just allow for more corruption, especially with the current laws in place. 

The problem is that you seem to want to blame government for their corrupt ways but wish to  allow those that supply the means of corruption a pass.  If you'll think logically you'll realize that it's the collusion of corrupt businesses and those 'that want to line their pockets in government', Like Rat said, that's the real problem. "







Solar, when big business owns the people who write the laws then big business is doing the writing. Do you really not see that?

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 27, 2012, 06:24:41 PM

This thread isnt a place for you to lie about me, Taxi. From the start you've lied and called me names. So please, either argue like an adult or go away. I hope you choose the first rather than the latter, I bet you have some good stuff to offer once you get through this strange emotional finger pointing.  :)

Fish, I'm not asking you about your feelings.  I'm telling you to start supporting your posts.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 27, 2012, 06:27:21 PM

Ok again, back to the conversation...


"Apply logic and think for a moment, Solar. Step out of the box and realize that the power provided by corrupt government to corrupt corporations will not simply go away by shrinking government. Lessening restrictions on proven corrupt businesses will just allow for more corruption, especially with the current laws in place. 

The problem is that you seem to want to blame government for their corrupt ways but wish to  allow those that supply the means of corruption a pass.  If you'll think logically you'll realize that it's the collusion of corrupt businesses and those 'that want to line their pockets in government', Like Rat said, that's the real problem. "







Solar, when big business owns the people who write the laws then big business is doing the writing. Do you really not see that?

Fish, I'm not going to allow you to insult the business world and put them on the same level as government.  Voters put politicians in place.  If you aren't going to acknowledge this, then tell me now.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 27, 2012, 06:21:04 PM

You havent given solid proof of that at all. And you've argued horribly, calling names and trying to belittle your opposition rather than supplying valid points.

Solar, You need to re-read what you've actually had to allow, and whats transpired here, I hope eventually you will see reality.

Instead of digging through this long thread yo find the posts, I'll just give you the source.
Read the OP and get back to me.

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/political-discussion-and-debate/an-inside-look-at-the-ows-movement/ (http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/political-discussion-and-debate/an-inside-look-at-the-ows-movement/)

Fish, THIS offers conclusive proof OWS is a deranged, sociopathic organization....

QuoteOn Wednesday, June 13, members of the Occupy movement protested against a conference dedicated to combatting child sex trafficking — thus, the Occupiers in essence were coming out in favor of one of society's most loathsome moral crimes.

The protesters mostly were members of Occupy Oakland Patriarchy, a group within the overall Occupy movement tasked with overthrowing our civilization's "patriarchy."

The conference which so infuriated them was called HEAT Watch, short for the National Human Exploitation And Trafficking Watch Conference.

If there's one issue that unites Americans of all political stripes, it's the sexual enslavement of children. Whatever our opinions on other issues, we all agree that sex trafficking and the prostituting of children is an outrage and a tragedy. Thus, conference attendees included liberal, moderate and conservative politicians; progressive nonprofit organizations; law enforcement groups; religious leaders; and (according to the conference Web site) "social services, medical providers, mental health, education, probation, and community-based organizations." In short: Everybody.

Everybody, that is, except Occupy Wall Street, who somehow found a way to oppose the abolition of child sexual slavery. In order to justify this seemingly incomprehensible and repugnant position, the Occupiers performed some of the most amazing moral gymnastics you'll ever encounter. I'll give them a lot of room to explain themselves in a moment, but first let's get a glimpse of the conference, the protest, a small counter-protest, and the completely bizarre behavior of the Occupiers.

http://pjmedia.com/zombie/2012/06/18/occupy-oakland-protests-in-favor-of-child-sex-trafficking/ (http://pjmedia.com/zombie/2012/06/18/occupy-oakland-protests-in-favor-of-child-sex-trafficking/)

Please explain how you can support a group with views this vile.

Quote from: taxed on August 27, 2012, 06:34:31 PM
Fish, I'm not going to allow you to insult the business world and put them on the same level as government.  Voters put politicians in place.  If you aren't going to acknowledge this, then tell me now.

Taxi, Im not going to allow you to insult the government without insulting the business world for they are in bed together. Politicians need money to win seats, businesses provide much of the money and rip the people off, think bailouts.

If you're not going to recognize this fact, then tell me now.

Quote from: quiller on August 28, 2012, 03:38:23 AM
Fish, THIS offers conclusive proof OWS is a deranged, sociopathic organization....

http://pjmedia.com/zombie/2012/06/18/occupy-oakland-protests-in-favor-of-child-sex-trafficking/ (http://pjmedia.com/zombie/2012/06/18/occupy-oakland-protests-in-favor-of-child-sex-trafficking/)

Please explain how you can support a group with views this vile.

That article is extremely bias and railing against a group of OWS that was protesting because they believe-

"The H.EAT. conference is a conference of pigs and their nonprofit lackeys to increase the harassment, imprisonment, marginalization and criminalization of sex workers. Fronting as a conference against 'child trafficking,' this conference brings pigs and nonprofits together to develop policing strategies that line their pockets..."

https://www.facebook.com/events/114828361990337/ (https://www.facebook.com/events/114828361990337/)

So their not vile, IMO, maybe mislead, but not vile.

I am intrigued. Show of hands; how many here regularly read and post on liberal sites? Yet I have yet to be on any conservative site that didn't have at least a few Libs, show up and start spouting their usual fecal matter. It's as if they can't stand the thought of anyone holding an opinion contrary to theirs. An inherent inability to admit that there can be any other valid points of view except their own. It's the left and right coasts insisting the "flyover" country must conform to their vision, while "flyover" country is willing to let them be as weird as they want to be on the coasts, as long as they leave them alone.

Quote from: mdgiles on August 28, 2012, 05:52:36 AM
I am intrigued. Show of hands; how many here regularly read and post on liberal sites? Yet I have yet to be on any conservative site that didn't have at least a few Libs, show up and start spouting their usual fecal matter. It's as if they can't stand the thought of anyone holding an opinion contrary to theirs. An inherent inability to admit that there can be any other valid points of view except their own. It's the left and right coasts insisting the "flyover" country must conform to their vision, while "flyover" country is willing to let them be as weird as they want to be on the coasts, as long as they leave them alone.

They act as though children voluntarily go to work in the sex industry. :blink:

http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/13400/youth_sex_workers_organize_for_their_rights/#.T-DQ4nY9hCg.twitter (http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/13400/youth_sex_workers_organize_for_their_rights/#.T-DQ4nY9hCg.twitter)

Quote from: kramarat on August 28, 2012, 05:57:50 AM
They act as though children voluntarily go to work in the sex industry. :blink:

http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/13400/youth_sex_workers_organize_for_their_rights/#.T-DQ4nY9hCg.twitter (http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/13400/youth_sex_workers_organize_for_their_rights/#.T-DQ4nY9hCg.twitter)

Of course they do. Since most of the child sex happens in the Third World, and Third Worlders are morally superior to First Worlders/sarc. I mean, it can't be that Third World parents are selling their children into the sex trade/sarc!

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 28, 2012, 05:28:16 AM


So their not vile, IMO, maybe mislead, but not vile.

HELLO!!!! That's what we've been trying to tell you, and why the two groups have absolutely nothing in common.

Let that sink in for a moment!!!!

Quote from: mdgiles on August 28, 2012, 06:06:55 AM
Of course they do. Since most of the child sex happens in the Third World, and Third Worlders are morally superior to First Worlders/sarc. I mean, it can't be that Third World parents are selling their children into the sex trade/sarc!

I honestly don't know what to say. Kids in the US end up on the streets for a multitude of reasons. They end up having sex for survival, and are scooped up by pimps that keep the bulk of the money for themselves.

Do these kids need help, other than being thrown in jail? Absolutely!!

The compassionate left's idea of help, is to keep them in the streets so they can continue to be exploited. It's sick.

I'm sure that includes free government sponsored abortions on demand too. :angry:

It is rather obvious at this point that you support OWS, as anything posted for you to see the completely rotten core this group has has forced us to read excuse after excuse for them.

" A penny will hide the biggest star in the Universe if you hold it close enough to your eye." ~Samuel Grafton

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 28, 2012, 05:19:55 AM

Taxi, Im not going to allow you to insult the government without insulting the business world for they are in bed together. Politicians need money to win seats, businesses provide much of the money and rip the people off, think bailouts.

If you're not going to recognize this fact, then tell me now.

24 hour ban...

Quote from: taxed on August 28, 2012, 12:15:59 PM
24 hour ban...

I find it fascinating, that he can't grasp the concept of extortion.

Quote from: mdgiles on August 28, 2012, 12:26:48 PM
I find it fascinating, that he can't grasp the concept of extortion.

I mean, if you own the military, can print money, take money from the people, and write and enforce the laws, then the buck pretty much stops with you...

Quote from: taxed on August 28, 2012, 12:15:59 PM
24 hour ban...

I see your getting nice in your older age young man.    (https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs15.rimg.info%2Fb8a5f0d5d7674ddf4a42a5e621d8efe2.gif&hash=806776cfe10f0775c159c315eb73683db6f97cab)

Quote from: walkstall on August 28, 2012, 12:59:10 PM
I see your getting nice in your older age young man.    (https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs15.rimg.info%2Fb8a5f0d5d7674ddf4a42a5e621d8efe2.gif&hash=806776cfe10f0775c159c315eb73683db6f97cab)

Sometimes liberals need encouragement....

Quote from: taxed on August 28, 2012, 01:02:11 PM
Sometimes liberals need encouragement....

If timeout doesn't work.

(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs17.rimg.info%2Fb9d875fcfecc2e57f0b803870bcea046.gif&hash=b25f9c2135bd033cea2a3036d17b9357555921d4)

His reply to me evaded the central issue that they PROTESTED AGAINST what any DECENT American would say is vitally important. His deplorable morals disgust me.

Ban his ass.

Quote from: quiller on August 28, 2012, 08:55:05 PM
His reply to me evaded the central issue that they PROTESTED AGAINST what any DECENT American would say is vitally important. His deplorable morals disgust me.

Ban his ass.

I didnt evade at all. I even applied a link. You're trying to accuse all of the OWS movement of being "vile" by posting an obviously bias article that is very misleading.

The fact is a small sect of the OWS said-

"The H.EAT. conference is a conference of pigs and their nonprofit lackeys to increase the harassment, imprisonment, marginalization and criminalization of sex workers. Fronting as a conference against 'child trafficking,' this conference brings pigs and nonprofits together to develop policing strategies that line their pockets..."

https://www.facebook.com/events/114828361990337/ (https://www.facebook.com/events/114828361990337/)




Which is not unlike the small Tea party group that applauds when the Tea party leader says a racist joke. Does that mean the entire tea party is racist? I dont believe so, though your logic would suggest so. Just aint right.




ps... I was banned for 'not seeing reality' or taxi's version of, that was the reason stated when I logged in anyway, and then I was talked about while I was unable to defend myself. WOW! LOL, I figured some of you were spineless, but now at least it's out there for all to see.    :wink:

Quote from: mdgiles on August 28, 2012, 12:26:48 PM
I find it fascinating, that he can't grasp the concept of extortion.

I find it sad that you can only see one side of political extortion. The politicians need cash to win, the ones holding the cash will only give it to get their way. The extortion, not unlike lady gaga, goes both ways.   :ohmy:

Quote from: Solar on August 28, 2012, 06:07:52 AM
HELLO!!!! That's what we've been trying to tell you, and why the two groups have absolutely nothing in common.

Let that sink in for a moment!!!!

Just because a small group within the OWS movement is mislead doesn't mean the entire movement is. Think racist tea party leader

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/inge-marler-tea-party-arkansas-leader-racist-joke_n_1597334.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/inge-marler-tea-party-arkansas-leader-racist-joke_n_1597334.html)



Does that make the entire tea party racist? I dont believe so.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 30, 2012, 08:33:31 PM

Just because a small group within the OWS movement is mislead doesn't mean the entire movement is. Think racist tea party leader

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/inge-marler-tea-party-arkansas-leader-racist-joke_n_1597334.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/inge-marler-tea-party-arkansas-leader-racist-joke_n_1597334.html)



Does that make the entire tea party racist? I dont believe so.

That doesn't make someone racist, hon.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 30, 2012, 08:33:31 PM

Just because a small group within the OWS movement is mislead doesn't mean the entire movement is. Think racist tea party leader

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/inge-marler-tea-party-arkansas-leader-racist-joke_n_1597334.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/inge-marler-tea-party-arkansas-leader-racist-joke_n_1597334.html)



Does that make the entire tea party racist? I dont believe so.

Small group? They started OWS, how is that in anyway small?

Quote from: JustKari on August 28, 2012, 11:49:30 AM
It is rather obvious at this point that you support OWS, as anything posted for you to see the completely rotten core this group has has forced us to read excuse after excuse for them.

" A penny will hide the biggest star in the Universe if you hold it close enough to your eye." ~Samuel Grafton

I support the combination of forces.. The good from the Tea party and the good from the OWS. We will need bigger numbers to even make a dent in corporate/government corruption.

"At the end of the day, we must go forward with hope and not backward by fear and division."
-Jesse Jackson

Quote from: Solar on August 30, 2012, 08:35:22 PM
Small group? They started OWS, how is that in anyway small?

The OWS doesn't seem to claim any leaders. As far as that group "starting the movement", ok, but they were still railing against what they believed to be people that were simply trying to "line their pockets" rather than do good by the people.

That's the commonality here. We are all being screwed by, as Rat said, people trying to line their own pockets. 

Quote from: taxed on August 30, 2012, 08:34:51 PM
That doesn't make someone racist, hon.

As I said, I dont believe the entire party racist just because the racist actions of the one tea party leader,  :wink: .

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 30, 2012, 09:04:44 PM

As I said, I dont believe the entire party racist just because the racist actions of the one tea party leader,  :wink: .

Making a racist joke doesn't make someone racist.

Quote from: taxed on August 30, 2012, 09:28:21 PM
Making a racist joke doesn't make someone racist.

I think the person was making a joke about how the left always paints the right as racist, especially when we talk about getting people off welfare. It was a lame joke. That's all they're guilty of.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 30, 2012, 09:02:07 PM

The OWS doesn't seem to claim any leaders. As far as that group "starting the movement", ok, but they were still railing against what they believed to be people that were simply trying to "line their pockets" rather than do good by the people.

That's the commonality here. We are all being screwed by, as Rat said, people trying to line their own pockets.

You're the perfect example of a PATSY.
The communists started the movement when they planted the seed, a seed you nurture through ignorance.

Not being insulting, just calling a useful idiot when the obvious is stated, you are the perfect little commie tool.
Running block for the OZ is just what they planned on, fools that have no clue of the big picture, or of what goes on behind the scenes.
Why do you suppose it's all kids in the movement? Because adults can smell a scam a mile away, which is why the Tea party is majority adults by comparison.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 22, 2012, 06:48:01 PM

I dont believe the tea party is full of people motivated by racism and greed. I do believe that both the tea party and the OWS have bad people that believe in falsehoods within there ranks, but I dont think they are the majority in either.

The tea party and the OWS not only have frustration in common but who they are frustrated with as well. We are all sick of greedy reps taking from the people and giving to corrupt businesses that buy them.

It's a simple line to draw, and one that needs be drawn, because as of now we are divided, and you know what happens to a house that's divided, don't you?

Like Solendra and a host of other bankrupt Obama funded corporations?

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 30, 2012, 08:59:48 PM

I support the combination of forces.. The good from the Tea party and the good from the OWS. We will need bigger numbers to even make a dent in corporate/government corruption.

"At the end of the day, we must go forward with hope and not backward by fear and division."
-Jesse Jackson

Jesse Jackson?? Now is anyone going to take you seriously? Fear and division is what hes about. He's amassed a fortune doing exactly that, and a whole lot of lying and intimidating to go with it.

Quote from: Indy on August 31, 2012, 02:22:05 PM
Jesse Jackson?? Now is anyone going to take you seriously? Fear and division is what hes about. He's amassed a fortune doing exactly that, and a whole lot of lying and intimidating to go with it.

Over and out on my part. Anyone that quotes Jesse Jackson is hopelessly lost. The guy rode on MLK's coat tails, and after MLK got shot, he has spent the rest of his life preaching division and hatred................................all the while, getting rich and keeping black people in their proper places. As victims. He's a pig.

Quote from: Solar on August 31, 2012, 06:03:01 AM

Why do you suppose it's all kids in the movement? Because adults can smell a scam a mile away, which is why the Tea party is majority adults by comparison.

Ive already given proof to the fact that there is much diversity in age in the OWS movement.


You have a problem with the OWS because you're seemingly blind to business corruption and that's what the OWS rails against, bad business. You, and Taxi would rather trash American people who are upset about corruption/thievery than place blame on corporate and government collusion combined. It's sad. 

Quote from: kramarat on August 31, 2012, 02:53:55 PM
Over and out on my part. Anyone that quotes Jesse Jackson is hopelessly lost. The guy rode on MLK's coat tails, and after MLK got shot, he has spent the rest of his life preaching division and hatred................................all the while, getting rich and keeping black people in their proper places. As victims. He's a pig.

Think what you want about ol'Jess, but I for one like that quote.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 31, 2012, 11:53:53 PM
Ive already given proof to the fact that there is much diversity in age in the OWS movement.


You have a problem with the OWS because you're seemingly blind to business corruption and that's what the OWS rails against, bad business. You, and Taxi would rather trash American people who are upset about corruption/thievery than place blame on corporate and government collusion combined. It's sad.

I've talked to a few of them during OWS Atlanta.  They are complete morons.  And they smell.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 31, 2012, 11:53:53 PM
Ive already given proof to the fact that there is much diversity in age in the OWS movement.


You have a problem with the OWS because you're seemingly blind to business corruption and that's what the OWS rails against, bad business. You, and Taxi would rather trash American people who are upset about corruption/thievery than place blame on corporate and government collusion combined. It's sad.

You don't seem to realize the movement is all but dead.
Where are the riots that were promised this summer, as well as the planned disruptions of the Pub convention?
I'll tell you where, the puppet masters told them to back off, their radical behavior was a reflection on the Dim party.
Like Code Pink which was also supported by the DNC, when Hussein took office, the protests ended, because they too were a reflection on the party.

You see, there is a monstrous difference in these two movements, one is driven over a love of country, while the other is fueled by hate.
The Tea party generates from the bottom up, the OWS gets it's matching orders from the top down.

You completely ignore the communist connection, and make some stupid claim that you proved diversity in age.
And this makes a difference how?
Idiots come in all age groups, but ignorance comes with youth. And how old are you?

Quit being such a tool, use some critical thinking instead of emotion to justify stupid behavior.
How much change did these useful idiots influence on Wall st, how many CEOs resigned, how many corporations did they bring down?
Answer, None!
What is the Tea party doing, and how much change have the facilitated?

Of course you know the answer, but refuse to accept reality, a reality that if you really want to institute change, you go to the source of the corruption, not the victim to make change.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on August 31, 2012, 11:53:53 PM
Ive already given proof to the fact that there is much diversity in age in the OWS movement.


You have a problem with the OWS because you're seemingly blind to business corruption and that's what the OWS rails against, bad business. You, and Taxi would rather trash American people who are upset about corruption/thievery than place blame on corporate and government collusion combined. It's sad.

You still don't understand. Corporate corruption would not exist unless government made it possible. You can pick any problem that we have in the US, and trace it's roots back to government. Every single one of them.

OWS is protesting the corporations, and Pelosi is out there talking about what a great group they are. Yeah, Pelosi..................worth hundreds of millions of dollars. The only reason she's applauding OWS, is because she knows they are to damned stupid to trace the problems back to her.

Oops....................here I am feeling stupid again myself, for continuing to take part in this conversation. :glare:

Quote from: kramarat on September 01, 2012, 05:57:48 AM
You still don't understand. Corporate corruption would not exist unless government made it possible. You can pick any problem that we have in the US, and trace it's roots back to government. Every single one of them.

OWS is protesting the corporations, and Pelosi is out there talking about what a great group they are. Yeah, Pelosi..................worth hundreds of millions of dollars. The only reason she's applauding OWS, is because she knows they are to damned stupid to trace the problems back to her.

Oops....................here I am feeling stupid again myself, for continuing to take part in this conversation. :glare:

:laugh:
Whether it's a train wreck or a group of clowns protesting on a corner, one always feels compelled to point out the obvious.
It's human nature, when you see someone repeating a stupid act over and over, one feels obligated to to step in and quell the pain.
In this case, maybe a hammer upside the head?

Quote from: kramarat on September 01, 2012, 05:57:48 AM
You still don't understand. Corporate corruption would not exist unless government made it possible.

You still don't understand that corporate corruption owns our government. Representatives require lots of money to keep their jobs, those with the money are in control, and now they are in control more so then ever, thanks to the seemingly bought supreme court. 

Quote from: Indy on August 31, 2012, 01:33:18 PM
Like Solendra and a host of other bankrupt Obama funded corporations?

"Solyndra loan guarantee was a multi-year process that the Bush Administration launched in 2007."

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2011/09/13/317594/timeline-bush-administration-solyndra-loan-guarantee/ (http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2011/09/13/317594/timeline-bush-administration-solyndra-loan-guarantee/)



Both Republican and Dem politicians are owned by big business.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on September 02, 2012, 01:13:05 PM

You still don't understand that corporate corruption owns our government. Representatives require lots of money to keep their jobs, those with the money are in control, and now they are in control more so then ever, thanks to the seemingly bought supreme court.

You have it completely backward.
Who writes the laws that governs business, and what happens when a group of law makers collude to regulate an industry? (Wall Street, Fannie Freddie)
The answer is, the Democrats line their pockets with payola, a form of extortion over business.

Now just imagine if we were to remove some of that power? (Think Tea party)

Quote from: hfishjr81 on September 02, 2012, 01:18:14 PM

"Solyndra loan guarantee was a multi-year process that the Bush Administration launched in 2007."

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2011/09/13/317594/timeline-bush-administration-solyndra-loan-guarantee/ (http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2011/09/13/317594/timeline-bush-administration-solyndra-loan-guarantee/)



Both Republican and Dem politicians are owned by big business.

Good link. I'm not worried about big business. I'm worried about the politicians.

Term limits for congress? Yep.

Corporations still have to create a product that people will voluntarily buy. Congress can pass laws that steal our money, and they are immune to.

If you want to hate someone, hate Washington. The filthy pigs have stolen our money, given us nothing in return, and promise to fix it.

And you're mad at corporate America? Extract your head from your ass.

Nancy Pelosi wipes her ass on gold leaf toilet paper, and tells you fu**ing idiots that she's going to make your life better. Wake the F**ck up, moron.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on September 02, 2012, 01:18:14 PM

"Solyndra loan guarantee was a multi-year process that the Bush Administration launched in 2007."

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2011/09/13/317594/timeline-bush-administration-solyndra-loan-guarantee/ (http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2011/09/13/317594/timeline-bush-administration-solyndra-loan-guarantee/)



Both Republican and Dem politicians are owned by big business.

Yet you neglect the fact that even the Bush administration knew it was a bad investment, and turned them down.
Why do we always have to do your thinking for you libs?

Quote from: Solar on September 02, 2012, 02:00:19 PM
Yet you neglect the fact that even the Bush administration knew it was a bad investment, and turned them down.
Why do we always have to do your thinking for you libs?

Not only did Bush turn them down, but after Obozo lent them the money, they changed the bankruptcy rules so all his cronies were paid ahead of the taxpayers.

Quote from: mdgiles on September 02, 2012, 02:29:37 PM
Not only did Bush turn them down, but after Obozo lent them the money, they changed the bankruptcy rules so all his cronies were paid ahead of the taxpayers.

Bingo!!!
But do you think for a moment he ever heard the whole story?
Of course not, or he wouldn't be here carrying water for a Marxist.

Quote from: kramarat on September 02, 2012, 01:48:55 PM
Good link. I'm not worried about big business. I'm worried about the politicians.

Thanks. But you should be worried about both. Our current system demands money to be a representative of the people, but when the people cant compete with big business then our reps aren't representing us. So are the reps to blame for allowing their pockets be lined with corporate money for corporate favors? Yes, but so are the corporations that sink their teeth into our representation. I see no reason to allow one fault and the other off the hook.




@ Solar/Giles 


"The Bush team tried to conditionally approve the Solyndra loan just before President Obama took office."

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/09/15/solyndra-advanced-by-bush-for-2-years-solyndra-timeline/ (http://cleantechnica.com/2011/09/15/solyndra-advanced-by-bush-for-2-years-solyndra-timeline/)


:ohmy:

Quote from: hfishjr81 on September 03, 2012, 09:27:03 AM

Thanks. But you should be worried about both. Our current system demands money to be a representative of the people, but when the people cant compete with big business then our reps aren't representing us. So are the reps to blame for allowing their pockets be lined with corporate money for corporate favors? Yes, but so are the corporations that sink their teeth into our representation. I see no reason to allow one fault and the other off the hook.




@ Solar/Giles 


"The Bush team tried to conditionally approve the Solyndra loan just before President Obama took office."

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/09/15/solyndra-advanced-by-bush-for-2-years-solyndra-timeline/ (http://cleantechnica.com/2011/09/15/solyndra-advanced-by-bush-for-2-years-solyndra-timeline/)


:ohmy:

Wrong. The guilty are the politicians. Period.

If I decide to cheat on my wife and go have sex with a whore, the responsibility is mine alone. The whore doesn't share half the blame.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on September 03, 2012, 09:27:03 AM

Thanks. But you should be worried about both. Our current system demands money to be a representative of the people, but when the people cant compete with big business then our reps aren't representing us. So are the reps to blame for extorting billions from corporations? Yes, but so are the corporations that sink their teeth into our representation. I see no reason to allow one fault and the other off the hook.




@ Solar/Giles 


"The Bush team tried to conditionally approve the Solyndra loan just before President Obama took office."

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/09/15/solyndra-advanced-by-bush-for-2-years-solyndra-timeline/ (http://cleantechnica.com/2011/09/15/solyndra-advanced-by-bush-for-2-years-solyndra-timeline/)


:ohmy:

FIFY

Yet you don't see an issue here? Solyndra was only the first in an effort by Hussein to kill our energy production, putting us on a par with other nations around the world.
Think for a moment, Bush was trying to get one company off the ground, which was just another lib pipe dream from a RINO POTUS, one sure to fail, but it was only one!

However, you miss the big picture, Hussein gave away Billions of our tax dollars to other nations, for what you ask?
This is where critical thinking comes to mind, sit back and skim through this link and lets see if you can answer the question.

http://obamanomicsoutsourced.com/ (http://obamanomicsoutsourced.com/)

Quote from: kramarat on August 31, 2012, 02:53:55 PM
Over and out on my part. Anyone that quotes Jesse Jackson is hopelessly lost. The guy rode on MLK's coat tails, and after MLK got shot, he has spent the rest of his life preaching division and hatred................................all the while, getting rich and keeping black people in their proper places. As victims. He's a pig.

If you're going to quote anything, especially about Jack$on and $harpton....

(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages12.fotki.com%2Fv216%2Fphotos%2F1%2F1595431%2F8186335%2F599psalmjacksonsharpton300x346-vi.png&hash=753663e915dada11a65eeffd9ee168fef73e40ee)

Hey Dumb Ass!! Is This the thread you lost?
It was hiding in plain sight... Book mark the damn thing.

Also, I expect an answer to my post.

Quote from: kramarat on September 03, 2012, 09:34:49 AM
Wrong. The guilty are the politicians. Period.

If I decide to cheat on my wife and go have sex with a whore, the responsibility is mine alone. The whore doesn't share half the blame.

Sorry it's taken so long, Kramar...

The wife would not only be upset with you but dislike the whore as well. But in the scenario we're talking here, it's as if the wife has to do business with the whore because the whore owns the products she is using. The whore is the person holding a business relationship with your wife yet she is screwing you on the side. Not a good thing, and certainly not ethical.

I do agree though, we should stop doing business with whores, but when our political system is now set up to cater to them it's really tough to weed through the dirty prostitutes to find the good.






@ Solar,

Sorry, I couldn't find this thread, thought it had been deleted, or moved, like others at the time...

Either way, you can blame government and allow business to get away with murder if you like, but it's not the right thing to do, IMO.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on November 29, 2012, 06:52:21 PM
@ Solar,

Sorry, I couldn't find this thread, thought it had been deleted, or moved, like others at the time...

Threads only get deleted when a troll starts it and runs away, otherwise they get moved to the appropriate forum, and there is always a link showing the move.

QuoteEither way, you can blame government and allow business to get away with murder if you like, but it's not the right thing to do, IMO.

That is in no way an answer to my point, that was a cop out, read it again.

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ah Liberals...

Quote from: The Boo Man... on November 29, 2012, 08:14:26 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ah Liberals...

It's now turned into "Buyers Remorse", they hated Bush, and what did they get?
A Marxist doing 10 times the spending Bush did....

 :lol:

Moron is mad because someone wants to hold on to more of his own property. Property which he earned.

At this point all I can say is Liberals are not just naive but dumb enough that they are dangerous to their own well being.

Go on cupcake! take every penny the "rich" make for the next ten years. Where does that get you? Does it wipe out the deficit? Does it help the poor? the middle class?

Are you really that stupid? if so please do us a favor and take these live grenades and juggle them in traffic. Too many of us have worked too hard to enjoy what has become a privilege in our own country. Living off our own hard work.

Quote from: The Boo Man... on November 30, 2012, 12:38:12 AM
:lol:

Moron is mad because someone wants to hold on to more of his own property. Property which he earned.

At this point all I can say is Liberals are not just naive but dumb enough that they are dangerous to their own well being.

Go on cupcake! take every penny the "rich" make for the next ten years. Where does that get you? Does it wipe out the deficit? Does it help the poor? the middle class?

Are you really that stupid? if so please do us a favor and take these live grenades and juggle them in traffic. Too many of us have worked too hard to enjoy what has become a privilege in our own country. Living off our own hard work.

If he was smart enough, he would have recognized the one thing in the movie/book he claims he's against, and that's crony capitalism in Govt.
Galt was fighting for freedom, in fish's world, that equates to greed?

Wow!  What a thread, but not unlike so very many just like it when dems try to argue down cons.

 
I didn't even get on this forum when this thread was started, matter of fact, just now reading it.  I do want to thank the cons for their research and the great points made from it.   Sadly, all of it fell on the deaf ears of the left and we are now back in the same mess that started 4 years ago.

Fish should rest easy knowing that his president and family are now planning another one of their extravaganza multi-million dollar vacations, all off the taxpayer dime.  But hey, it's legal and they are entitled as the first family.
  I personally think Obama and crew ought to give up some of those vacations and help those of us on the edge of the fiscal cliff right now.  Is that being greedy?  Didn't Romney forego some of what he was entitled to in his previous positions for the good of ......just saying, but he wasn't even president then and most of us didn't know about these practices of Romney's and didn't care about them either.  These incidents only surfaced when the dirty minded libs went digging for anything they could find that might raise doubts about anyone besides Obambi.  This whole election has been about defacing any opponent of Obambi, it could have been Jesus Christ and they would have treated Him the same way because too many of them don't believe in Him either.

Now we have seen accounts of the president actually inviting Romney to the WH for lunch in an attempt to do what?  What evil scheme is Obama coccocting now?  This is clearly an effort to show the public that Obama is trying to be partisan, that he is offering the olive branch of peace to the pubs.  Bottom line is, see? I'm willing to work with those light-headed cons, but they don't want to work with me for the good of this country.  My question is this.  What good has been done by the efforts of Obama to date?  Romney was civil but I'll bet he left that meeting sick and disgusted.  It has been reported that Romney has no intentions of getting in on anything to do with the fiscal cliff and if that indeed proves out to be true, then I salute him.  That whole gang of corrupt czars in the WH does not know or will not accept anything that will correct the situation of fiscal responsibility and they have not offered any real cuts to spending.  Romney knows this and for them to actually think that he is interested in bailing them out of their pitiful situation is beyond stupid.  Romney had great ideas for reform and stabilizing our current situation but he wasn't about to let all of it out in his campaign.  He was belittled for the stand he took.  He was, however, savvy enough to make the claims he did make and if elected, he would have followed them through.

  The report I heard this morning on Fox news was that Obama was extending the invitation to Romney to discuss ways that would help make the WH run more smoothly.  Good grief!  You should have heard me ranting clear out there where some of y'all live!   Obama has claimed from day one of the campaign that Romney didn't have a  clue on how to run this country and has spent millions of dollars running smear ads in trying to defeat Romney, yet now claims that Romney might be able to help him run the WH more smoothly?   Does this stuff ever end?  Romney does not need Obama.  Romney has a record to maintain and that record need not be sullied by any association with the likes of Obama and crew.
                                       
Sorry for the length of this post, just my .02 worth.

The report I heard this morning on Fox news was that Obama was extending the invitation to Romney to discuss ways that would help make the WH run more smoothly.

Kick out the current occupant!

Quote from: Darth Fife on November 30, 2012, 08:05:29 AM
The report I heard this morning on Fox news was that Obama was extending the invitation to Romney to discuss ways that would help make the WH run more smoothly.

Kick out the current occupant!

True, but that idea should have been followed thru in the first 4 years. 

Quote from: keyboarder on November 30, 2012, 07:35:06 AM
Wow!  What a thread, but not unlike so very many just like it when dems try to argue down cons.

Fish should rest easy knowing that his president
                                       

Im not a Dem, and I dont like Obama. Granted, I'd take that corporate hack over the Cult member, but that doesn't mean I like it.

Quote from: Solar on November 30, 2012, 06:10:14 AM
If he was smart enough, he would have recognized the one thing in the movie/book he claims he's against, and that's crony capitalism in Govt.
Galt was fighting for freedom, in fish's world, that equates to greed?

If you could look past your obvious bias than you'd recognize that the system at present is built to pander to the rich corporations making our reps available for purchase. Anyone that is greedy can have a field day with our legislators.

That is greed. And, based on reality at present People that talk about pulling a Gult aren't so much "greedy" as the are retarded.

Quote from: The Boo Man... on November 30, 2012, 12:38:12 AM
take every penny the "rich" make for the next ten years. Where does that get you? Does it wipe out the deficit? Does it help the poor? the middle class?

Nobodies going to take everything from the rich. Wake up... The rich own our government. They will find a way around any extra supposed tax. Also, If we're honest with ourselves we'll notice that when the biggest among them fail, we middle class folk will be the people bailing them out.

Keep shoveling the rich mans BS if you like, but at least realize that it stinks while youre doing it.

Quote from: The Boo Man... on November 30, 2012, 12:38:12 AM
Go on cupcake!

Oh, and like Ive said, just because you might want someone in your mouth doesn't mean they're a "cupecake".   :smile:

Quote from: hfishjr81 on December 01, 2012, 08:17:37 AM

Nobodies going to take everything from the rich. Wake up... The rich own our government. They will find a way around any extra supposed tax. Also, If we're honest with ourselves we'll notice that when the biggest among them fail, we middle class folk will be the people bailing them out.

Keep shoveling the rich mans BS if you like, but at least realize that it stinks while youre doing it.


Oh, and like Ive said, just because you might want someone in your mouth doesn't mean they're a "cupecake".   :smile:

This will continue to be a chicken v. egg argument.  For example, this guy spoke of the virtues of greater taxation at the DNC, only to pull this stunt.  While government continues to tempt business with tax exemptions, perks, loopholes, jobs, and lobbying opportunities, business will continue to eat these options up with gusto.  It would be like putting the softest, most sweet, delicious cookie you have ever seen in front of someone and expecting them not to want it.  Of course businesses will grab every perk they can. 

Both huge business and huge government are greedy, neither have our best interests at heart, the difference is, we elect our government, we don't get to elect business owners.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324705104578149012514177372.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324705104578149012514177372.html)

Quote from: hfishjr81 on December 01, 2012, 08:11:44 AM


If you could look past your obvious bias than you'd recognize that the system at present is built to pander to the rich corporations making our reps available for purchase. Anyone that is greedy can have a field day with our legislators.

That is greed. And, based on reality at present People that talk about pulling a Gult aren't so much "greedy" as the are retarded.

First things first, respond to my long awaited post.

Quote from: Solar on September 04, 2012, 06:29:56 AM
Hey Dumb Ass!! Is This the thread you lost?
It was hiding in plain sight... Book mark the damn thing.

Also, I expect an answer to my post.

And to respond to this post, rent the movie and quit looking so damned stupid!

Quote from: hfishjr81 on December 01, 2012, 08:11:44 AM


If you could look past your obvious bias than you'd recognize that the system at present is built to pander to the rich corporations making our reps available for purchase. Anyone that is greedy can have a field day with our legislators.

That is greed. And, based on reality at present People that talk about pulling a Gult aren't so much "greedy" as the are retarded.

And until rich corporations and UNIONS are not allowed to contribute huge sums of money to campaigns this will never change.

I just read the post. And Fish is right on the MONEY. And whats up with all the name calling? Makes you look like Cry Babys. Just Saying. :thumbdown:

Quote from: hfishjr81 on December 01, 2012, 08:17:37 AM

Nobodies going to take everything from the rich. Wake up... The rich own our government.

If the "rich" truly owned our Government, Romney would be president. Indeed, Obama would never have made it out of the primary back in the election of '04.

If the rich owned the Government, Boeing would have its plant in North Carolina by now!

A single act of Congress, or, under Obama a single Executive Order can put even the largest of corporations out of business and impoverish the richest of individuals! It is the Government who owns the Rich, just like they own all of us!

QuoteThey will find a way around any extra supposed tax.

True. The only two kinds of taxes they can't get out of is a flat tax and a Government sales tax - neither of which is being considered by the Democrats.

QuoteAlso, If we're honest with ourselves we'll notice that when the biggest among them fail, we middle class folk will be the people bailing them out.

This is only a half truth. The only way the so-called middle class will end up bailing out any corporation is if the Government takes the money to bail them out from us in the form of taxes.

Can you say "Stimulus Program" and "Quantitative Easing 1, 2, and 3"?

QuoteKeep shoveling the rich mans BS if you like, but at least realize that it stinks while youre doing it.

The only one shoveling B.S. around here is you, my friend. But, that's okay, we understand you are a product of our government propaganda mills - er, public schools! :smile:

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 01, 2012, 11:11:20 AM
If the "rich" truly owned our Government, Romney would be president.

Disagree. They are getting their way at present, AND they didn't have to deal with a provable riot if the supposed's saviors base lost.

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 01, 2012, 11:11:20 AM
A single act of Congress, or, under Obama a single Executive Order can put even the largest of corporations out of business and impoverish the richest of individuals! It is the Government who owns the Rich, just like they own all of us!

That would be true if it didn't require lots of money to win re-elections.

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 01, 2012, 11:11:20 AM
True.

Glad we can agree there.

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 01, 2012, 11:11:20 AM
This is only a half truth. The only way the so-called middle class will end up bailing out any corporation is if the Government takes the money to bail them out from us in the form of taxes.

And, as we know, the government that's bought by big business, can, and will, throw our tax dollars at big business.

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 01, 2012, 11:11:20 AM
The only one shoveling B.S. around here is you, my friend. But, that's okay, we understand you are a product of our government propaganda mills - er, public schools! :smile:

I disagree. Im simply placing blame on both the government and big business. If it required public schooling to see this than I hope everyone has the same opportunity.  :thumbup:

So, what you are saying is, the "Rich" own the government.

Obama runs the government along with a whole bunch of other Democrats and "progressives".

So, that means that the "Rich" own Obama and the Democrat Majority in the Senate.

So, that means that it will be Obama and the so-called Progressives who will doe the bidding of the "Rich" and, as you said*, force us to bail the "Rich" out when they fail. 

My only question to you is, why did you vote for Obama?

(*we middle class folk will be the people bailing them out. Your very words!)

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 02, 2012, 06:48:08 PM
My only question to you is, why did you vote for Obama?

Of the two corporate candidates he was the only one saying the right things, from equality to the wars. Yes, he is lying,  but at least of the two liars he was seemingly on the right side of the issues.

All in all, It's sad, us voting on obvious liars for social purposes alone, but what other choice did we have? You guys voted for someone you deemed a BS RHINO because he wasn't Obama, not because you believed in him, or his fiscal responsibility. Pretty crappy times, politically speaking. 
Oh, and Obama doesn't claim to be a cult member. Something about a person that openly believes in magic underwear, and mystical golden tablets given to a hillbilly around New York in the mid 1800s, just makes for a scary figure head to place at the top of the worlds greatest military. 

Of the two corporate candidates he was the only one saying the right things, from equality to the wars. Yes, he is lying,  but at least of the two liars he was seemingly on the right side of the issues.

All in all, It's sad, us voting on obvious liars for social purposes alone, but what other choice did we have? You guys voted for someone you deemed a BS RHINO because he wasn't Obama, not because you believed in him, or his fiscal responsibility. Pretty crappy times, politically speaking. 
Oh, and Obama doesn't claim to be a cult member. Something about a person that openly believes in magic underwear, and mystical golden tablets given to a hillbilly around New York in the mid 1800s, just makes for a scary figure head to place at the top of the worlds greatest military. Even Corporately owned that type of crazy is a wild card I just don't trust.


http://youtu.be/i2DtW6XI0sg (http://youtu.be/i2DtW6XI0sg)

Quote from: hfishjr81 on December 04, 2012, 07:29:59 PM


Of the two corporate candidates he was the only one saying the right things, from equality to the wars. Yes, he is lying,  but at least of the two liars he was seemingly on the right side of the issues.

All in all, It's sad, us voting on obvious liars for social purposes alone, but what other choice did we have? You guys voted for someone you deemed a BS RHINO because he wasn't Obama, not because you believed in him, or his fiscal responsibility. Pretty crappy times, politically speaking. 
Oh, and Obama doesn't claim to be a cult member. Something about a person that openly believes in magic underwear, and mystical golden tablets given to a hillbilly around New York in the mid 1800s, just makes for a scary figure head to place at the top of the worlds greatest military.

Ummm...

I didn't vote for Romney.

I voted for Gary Johnson who as you say, was "saying all the right things from the equality to the wars". The only difference between Johnson, Romney and Obama is that Johnson meant what he said, and if elected would have followed through on it.

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 04, 2012, 09:12:53 PM
Ummm...

I didn't vote for Romney.

I voted for Gary Johnson who as you say, was "saying all the right things from the equality to the wars". The only difference between Johnson, Romney and Obama is that Johnson meant what he said, and if elected would have followed through on it.

I could've voted for you and had the same odds as any "Gary Johnson." I voted for the only viable candidate saying the right things.

Our elections being money driven either by media, or big business, takes real legislators, those truly for the people, out of the equation.

Quote from: hfishjr81 on December 05, 2012, 05:56:49 PM
I could've voted for you and had the same odds as any "Gary Johnson." I voted for the only viable candidate saying the right things.

Our elections being money driven either by media, or big business, takes real legislators, those truly for the people, out of the equation.

Then why bother to vote at all?

BTW I'll be counting on your vote in 2016!  :wink:

Quote from: Darth Fife on December 05, 2012, 06:11:02 PM
Then why bother to vote at all?

BTW I'll be counting on your vote in 2016!  :wink:

There really was no point in me voting, for multiple reasons. But the day before I kept hearing my grandpas voice say "you don't vote , you dont bitch", and I like to bitch about politics.


And You've got it. Unless there's a woman running in 2016. I figure if we're going to be forced to pick between big money reps I'll at least throw my vote in for the first woman prez in order to make history, and piss off an ass load of misogynists.  :)