I guess they will be swapping notes...

Quote from: redlom xof on May 27, 2013, 09:25:59 AM
I see the difference you're speaking of now. ( I think I do anyway)

The difference is not between the level of radicalization of the governments or how brutal they're to their own people. Or even if they go against every democratic principal. The difference is we previously supported brutal regimes who could control their own people and keep things 'civil'. Now we're supporting different fractions who don't have total control.

Well, I see what you're saying.

Are you happy for us to do that throughout our history though ? You know the type of governments we support and you're okay with that ? You know we're the imperial power and believe we have a right to interfere with foreign politics to serve our own interests.

Imagine if you were an Iranian and America helped install a military dictatorship. Would you be happy with America ? Honestly, how would you view America ?

So you somehow think the US is different from Russia, France, Japan etc, in how we manipulate other countries?
You see, this is that perspective thing I talk about, you are too young to remember or understand, but Carter screwed up in Iran and allowed an established Govt to fall to radicals, a country that not only traded with us, but actually liked us, and now look at what leftists have done.
Same goes for Libya, we were on good terms with Gaddafi before Hussein murdered him, and now look at the aftermath, four dead and and extremists are getting a foothold in that part of Africa.

Do you understand the concept of trade with other countries, and do you think the radicals that your messiah is propping up care one iota about trading with us?
Seriously, do you actually think they want a relationship with us?

Quote from: redlom xof on May 27, 2013, 09:25:59 AM
.

Imagine if you were an Iranian and America helped install a military dictatorship. Would you be happy with America ? Honestly, how would you view America ?

Imagine if you were an Iranian and the KGB helped install one of their puppets, you might not be an Iranian much longer...you'd be a citizen of the USSR if you lived in whatever portion of Iran the annexed just like they did previously.

Imagine if you were an Iranian under the Shah and chosen to go abroad and get and get an education
even if you were a woman.

Then imagine the green bands who served as the ayatollah's goon squad gained
power and you were called before a revolutionary council to explain
your unislamic westernization and maybe marched to the nearest fireing squad like thousands of other Iranians were.

Are you really this naive ?


Billy

So Solar we're an imperial power. Just like Russia, Japan, England and France.

Did you ever believe in "American exceptionalism" ? When did you realize this is how the world works and America isn't really the beacon of freedom around the world. Because most Americans believe we do fight for principals and democracy etc. But you know it's all just a disillusion. We do things, because it's in our interest to do so, the result on other people is not considered.

QuoteImagine if you were an Iranian and the KGB helped install one of their puppets, you might not be an Iranian much longer...you'd be a citizen of the USSR if you lived in whatever portion of Iran the annexed just like they did previously.

Imagine if you were an Iranian under the Shah and chosen to go abroad and get and get an education
even if you were a woman.

Then imagine the green bands who served as the ayatollah's goon squad gained
power and you were called before a revolutionary council to explain
your unislamic westernization and maybe marched to the nearest fireing squad like thousands of other Iranians were.

Are you really this naive ?


Billy

So you're saying you would be happy with America because they installed a less harsh dictatorship than the Russians probably would have.

What if China funded some militant left wing group in America and benefited from this group gaining power. You and your family would have live under this regime for x amount of decades. Would you support terrorism and hatred against China ?

Quote from: redlom xof on May 27, 2013, 11:03:02 PM


So you're saying you would be happy with America because they installed a less harsh dictatorship than the Russians probably would have.

What if China funded some militant left wing group in America and benefited from this group gaining power. You and your family would have live under this regime for x amount of decades. Would you support terrorism and hatred against China ?

You know damn well what I'm saying...You don't speak for Iranians or anyone else unless you know what you are talking about and your niavity shows you don't.

My knowledge of Iran stems from My brother who was stationed in the place back in the 1960's, from the dozen or so refugees who fled to the USA when the "green band" islamic death squads took over and from the occassional Iranian medical student I meet overseas who secretly hate their current regime.

China...CHINA?

Are you aware the Chinese have already funded such a group in the USA....It was called the weathermen....ask your boy Obamao about them.

Or I could let you ask my wife's relatives who fled from Mao and his commies thugs after WW2.

I don't see people fleeing distraught countries and going to Iran or China
Not all of them go to the USA but them damn sure don't go to either of those places.

You got a lots to learn Bro.

Billy

You have gone off on many tangents but have barely addressed my post.

I'm asking, what right does the USA have, or any other imperial power for that matter, to interfere with other countries politics just to serve their own interests ?

You seem to acknowledge the moral bankruptcy when another nation such as China or Russia do it, but excuse it when the USA does it. But that is not surprising, it is always harder to aim the moral compos at your own tribe/people. I'm sure if you ask the majority of Chinese, they would find ways to excuse their governments actions around the world. 

I leave the room for  moment and when I return we are imperialists?

HAHAHA, Come on, how are we not ?

We're just like every other power that has ever existed throughout human history.

Quote from: The Boo Man... on May 28, 2013, 01:15:44 AM
I leave the room for  moment and when I return we are imperialists?

If it wasn't for us, the middle east would be a beacon of freedom and civility....

It would be more free and democratic, yes.

The fact that we support non-democratic, highly religious and brutal governments/dictators and help keep them in power would suggest we aren't helping. The USA is of course not alone in this, we just happen to be the most powerful nation on earth and therefor have more ability to influence.

"This is not the kind of answer you read in international Journals or the press and so on, there you read sophisticated answers about how people of that region have bad cultures or they have been left out by globalization .... The national security council, the highest planning body, gave their analysis."

From the documentary, " Power and Terror "

"There is a perception in the region that the United States is supporting harsh and brutal and corrupt regimes and is blocking democratization and development and is doing so because of our interest in controlling the oil reserves of the region. It is difficult to counter this perception because it's accurate..." - National Security council

Quote from: redlom xof on May 27, 2013, 11:03:02 PM
So Solar we're an imperial power. Just like Russia, Japan, England and France.

Did you ever believe in "American exceptionalism" ? When did you realize this is how the world works and America isn't really the beacon of freedom around the world. Because most Americans believe we do fight for principals and democracy etc. But you know it's all just a disillusion. We do things, because it's in our interest to do so, the result on other people is not considered.

So you're saying you would be happy with America because they installed a less harsh dictatorship than the Russians probably would have.

What if China funded some militant left wing group in America and benefited from this group gaining power. You and your family would have live under this regime for x amount of decades. Would you support terrorism and hatred against China ?

Stop Mixing Quotes!!!!
Billy asked if you were naive, I say more ignorant in what we stand for.
The world is a cruel place where dictators are always trying to seize power and your use of American Exceptionalism plays no part in this, which shows more ignorance of knowledge of world affairs.
We are a capitalist Nation based in a Republic form of govt that wants to trade with other Nations, it's in OUR best interest that these Nations share in our ideology, to see that other areas prosper, we help prop up the best of the worst dictators in these areas.
You ask about Communist China funding groups in America. Are you really so naive that you didn't know the USSR did the very same thing in the 60s that started the hippy movement protesting Nam, and China is no different in their activities in wanting to form America in it's image.

Yes, we're in this mess with the gay movement and a myriad of ills, all thanks to the commies, and it was all planned.
This is why your ignorance is so damned troubling, you have no idea how we got to where we are, so you have no clue as to where we're headed, this is why so many are against Hussein, he is doing the work of the commies, he is a Marxist, and you and your ignorant generation put him in power.
And you dare question the decisions of previous leaders? None of them propped up enemies of Capitalism and trade, but Hussein is.
I hope to Hell this makes you step back and see the bigger picture for a change.

QuoteStop Mixing Quotes!!!!
Billy asked if you were naive, I say more ignorant in what we stand for.
The world is a cruel place where dictators are always trying to seize power and your use of American Exceptionalism plays no part in this, which shows more ignorance of knowledge of world affairs.
We are a capitalist Nation based in a Republic form of govt that wants to trade with other Nations, it's in OUR best interest that these Nations share in our ideology, to see that other areas prosper, we help prop up the best of the worst dictators in these areas.
You ask about Communist China funding groups in America. Are you really so naive that you didn't know the USSR did the very same thing in the 60s that started the hippy movement protesting Nam, and China is no different in their activities in wanting to form America in it's image.

Yes, we're in this mess with the gay movement and a myriad of ills, all thanks to the commies, and it was all planned.
This is why your ignorance is so damned troubling, you have no idea how we got to where we are, so you have no clue as to where we're headed, this is why so many are against Hussein, he is doing the work of the commies, he is a Marxist, and you and your ignorant generation put him in power.
And you dare question the decisions of previous leaders? None of them propped up enemies of Capitalism and trade, but Hussein is.
I hope to Hell this makes you step back and see the bigger picture for a change.

Same excuses have been used for imperialism since human civilization started.

" We help prop up the best of the worst dictators " - Come on ...

Also, can you provide evidence of the USSR funding the hippie movement or the gay rights movement.

Quote from: redlom xof on May 28, 2013, 04:51:56 AM
It would be more free and democratic, yes.

The fact that we support non-democratic, highly religious and brutal governments/dictators and help keep them in power would suggest we aren't helping. The USA is of course not alone in this, we just happen to be the most powerful nation on earth and therefor have more ability to influence.

"This is not the kind of answer you read in international Journals or the press and so on, there you read sophisticated answers about how people of that region have bad cultures or they have been left out by globalization .... The national security council, the highest planning body, gave their analysis."

From the documentary, " Power and Terror "

"There is a perception in the region that the United States is supporting harsh and brutal and corrupt regimes and is blocking democratization and development and is doing so because of our interest in controlling the oil reserves of the region. It is difficult to counter this perception because it's accurate..." - National Security council

Yeah.  When will we set the muzzies free?

Most likely not until we lose our ability to influence and control the region. But it won't make much of a difference, the next superpower will do pretty much the same thing.

Quote from: redlom xof on May 28, 2013, 06:00:34 AM
Most likely not until we lose our ability to influence and control the region. But it won't make much of a difference, the next superpower will do pretty much the same thing.

They were so prosperous before the United States.  They barely have plumbing.  We're landing robots on Mars.  Try again.