@ Arp, I comprehend what you are saying and I pretty much agree with you. No, I dont view what you are saying as arguing. We are all discussing this issue.

Arp stated:

QuoteIf the kid down the block gets $10 for raking leaves but can sweet-talk someone into giving him $100 for the job does that make it a $100 job? No. The job's still worth $10. The kid's just lucked into some special circumstances. Same thing with the unions. All those pay increases didn't come about because the jobs became more valuable but because the unions were in a position to get more money.

I completely agree. The little 25 year old young lady who came to me as a Fed employee working for Social Secuirty was by far not the sharpest tool in the shed and with a measley 4 yr college degree... (I cant recall if it was  a history or sociology degree or what... but it was a tootie degree) Where in Mississippi in 2001 could a 25 year old make that type of money on a nothing degree? You couldnt do that with an engineering degree, I dont believe nor with many medical 4 year degrees. Even a physical therapist with 3 years experience was only making around that amount in this state, but they needed 5 years of schooling. (I think there were strings pulled for this young lady. I cant recall the details, but I told her she was making an impressive salary. She agreed with a comment that didnt go without me making a note of it.) I bet had Repub had the same job as this young lady in 2001, same degree, etc... he wouldnt have been making as much as she.

Also, I am NOT here to beat down all government employees. I am sure there are some who pull their fair share of load plus pull for others too. I am simply convinced that if many of them were to enter the private sector, they would find out just how hard it actually is....

Let me tell you a little about myself.

~~Sometimes I Win, Sometimes I Lose~~~

I broke my right ankle and a foot bone. Since then, I have been at home and today, I have only a slight limp. Things continue to look up. (Keep in mind the Dr wanted to surgically implant screws and such.... I said NO WAY! God will heal me and He did, but it has been a very slow go. (I WIN- no pins, etc.)) Now since I have been a self-employed person, I had no income coming in. (I LOSE) It was tough luck for me and luckily I have a husband who is able to swing the load alone for we are sensible people living within our means. :))

Prior to my injury, I had to leave the real estate mortgage industry to head toward the money... I became a Site Acquisition Agent (acquired tower sites... thru purchasing land or renting land for cell phone companies)  Yes, I made my fair pay once again with the down turn in real estate. I knew the going rates in site acquisition and such and knew how to charge for the services I provided, etc. So I was able to make lemonade out of the career I had chosen in life when many struggled~ I WON by changing slightly to tower work. After being out of the work force for 2 years due to this bad foot and ankle, I got a call a couple of weeks ago.... They begged me literally to come back and do a little work for them (the cellular company) so I finally agreed and at the same old rate in the next state over from where I live.) I have gone to work 2 days this past week. Yesterday while out there, I received a call from a guy who is doing the same work over in the same state as me. He asked me if I were thrilled to be making the good money now. I asked him to elaborate because I am trying to mult-task on my end. He did. I came to learn he is charging 4 times what I am charging.  :o   :-[  Apparently, the fees in that state are astronomically high in comparison to the fees in the state I live in. I didnt do my homework as I ordinarily know better. It was totally my fault. However, I am not losing. I am ok, but 1 job I did, I made 1200 dollars for 4 hours worth of work~(I WON) I could have charged 4000 for the job and so I live and learn. (I LOST... but did I?) *shrugs*

The other 6 jobs I have left to do for the company... I will charge my MS fees in Alabama. I agreed on it so its the thing to do. After that, I will do my homework and either continue working or stay home. I am temporarily working for them any way on 10 sites. That was the deal.

Some how, if I were in a union, I am sure I would have gotten that 4000 dollars per site. To be fair, 4000 is entirely too much for this type work. No wonder Alabama has so many drop calls in comparison to Mississippi. The leases are too high for towers and the site acquisition agents are charging too, the tower contractors are charging too much, build to suit tower contractors are charging too much...  and on and on... Alabama pricing from beginning to end is highway robbery in the cellular business. People need cell phone service. No such thing as phone booths any more. That cell phone bubble needs to pop like the housing bubble popped...  For that matter, car industry bubble needs to pop and so does cost of higher learning! (that is another topic though.)

So now you know my story of winning and losing, but that is private sector work for you. It is the path I chose in life so.... We take risks and sometimes we win, sometimes we los. I am not crying, but I was embarrassed yesterday to admit a little truth to the guy. "I am charging my old rates." Why? "Because they seemed desperate and I could use some extra money."

DANG it, I wish I were a union woman!   :))

Quote from: arpad on February 27, 2011, 05:51:58 AM
I don't want to come across as argumentative but I think it's important to understand that the government unions aren't doing anything most any person, or group of people, wouldn't do in their position.

People are greedy. There's no getting around that but when your greed is satisfied that just makes many people greedier.

So the government unions, having gotten years of unearned raises and benefit increases now see it as right and proper that the situation go on forever. And even if the raises and benefit bumps aren't going to keep going on certainly what they got in the past is sacrosanct. There's nothing especially evil in that; it's what most people would do given the same situation.

What we've lost sight of is that a job does have a certain value and getting paid more then that value doesn't increase the value of the job.

If the kid down the block gets $10 for raking leaves but can sweet-talk someone into giving him $100 for the job does that make it a $100 job? No. The job's still worth $10. The kid's just lucked into some special circumstances. Same thing with the unions. All those pay increases didn't come about because the jobs became more valuable but because the unions were in a position to get more money.

So right on Arpad.

I would say there are two types of greedy people.  I am OK with greed, as I believe when allowed to exist within ethical bounds and the law, it is very helpful, for example, the guy who saves up his money to buy a new Corvette he thinks about every day, versus the guy who breaks the window of one and steals it.  Both really wanted it, but one chose to go about the right way to do it, while the other said "F* society; that's mine!".

Union/gov workers who do their jobs and collect higher salaries and benefits are not the problem.  The union that makes it that way is the problem.  The union/gov worker who is in the line of fire during a much needed restructuring and says "F* society; this is mine!" is a problem.

The reality is, we need people to run and maintain our defense, law enforcement, correctional facilities, and emergency responders.  So, we need people to work these jobs.  These are service jobs. They are serving the greater good, and aren't entitled to big bucks and insane pensions and benefits.  If you are in these jobs for the wealth, then you are in them for the wrong reasons.

Of course, we can (and I think we should) take it one step further. Instead of concentrating on the greed of individual public employees (a human trait they share with everyone else), we can focus on what feeds that greed, what makes its fulfillment possible, what holds the promise of ever more to come -- the politicians who are the 'enablers,' to borrow a term from pop-psych.


Public sector unions are middle class welfare programs. They share that one big ugly feature prevalent in all welfare programs -- including Social Security -- in that they are designed to purchase (capture) votes by confiscating money from one group under threat of force and giving that money to another group who will then be likely to vote for further handouts. The public employee union problem in Wisconsin, for example, is much more than a crisis of dollars and cents.

Wisconsin is one of the most heavily-unionized states in the union. Approximately one in four voters lives in a "union household." One in seven Wisconsin voters belongs to a public employee union. Couple this with the fact that unions in general -- public and private sector -- tend to support Democrats by massive proportions (around 95% of public-sector union contributions went to Dems in 2010). It's not hard to see the symbiosis here. Yet another hook-line-and-sinker catch of a carefully defined and selected voter bloc for the liberal/progressive Democrats.


The fight shouldn't be an economic one. It is, and must be addressed as, a political fight. We're battling legitimized socialism/communism, and we should be finding ways to eliminate it as such. The money is an issue, sure, but the REAL issue is what that money buys.

Quote from: tbone0106 on February 27, 2011, 12:29:39 PM
The fight shouldn't be an economic one. It is, and must be addressed as, a political fight. We're battling legitimized socialism/communism, and we should be finding ways to eliminate it as such. The money is an issue, sure, but the REAL issue is what that money buys.

Those last three sentences hits the nail on the head, T! Well stated!

  Re: Do Govt workers make to much?Absolutely, if they are making more than the private sector in a Capitalist society, then they need an adjustment downward immediately!

There needs to be a law that states they can't make more than the private sector, including benefits.

Quote from: Solar on February 27, 2011, 06:29:04 PM
  Re: Do Govt workers make to much?Absolutely, if they are making more than the private sector in a Capitalist society, then they need an adjustment downward immediately!

There needs to be a law that states they can't make more than the private sector, including benefits.

Make that Average Private Sector and I will say ok. 

Quote from: walkstall on February 27, 2011, 06:35:30 PM

Make that Average Private Sector and I will say ok. 

Thats what I had in mind, but you're right, if we don't spell it out, they would take Google employees as a bench mark.

Quote from: Solar on February 27, 2011, 06:38:23 PM
Thats what I had in mind, but you're right, if we don't spell it out, they would take Google employees as a bench mark.

Ok you got my vote.   ;D

Quote from: walkstall on February 27, 2011, 06:40:43 PM

Ok you got my vote.   ;D

:)) :))

8)

Quote from: Solar on February 27, 2011, 06:46:14 PM
:)) :))

8)

You found the smiles I see.   :))

Duke brought our smilies back.

Also,  you can open up your text area by dragging the two double lines under the text box....

Quote from: taxed on February 27, 2011, 06:52:13 PM
Duke brought our smilies back.

Also,  you can open up your text area by dragging the two double lines under the text box....

Hmmmm.....I have alway had the smilies and could drag the text box open from day one.  I only had the problem of thing being wide when they did the up date and then they fixed it. 

Quote from: walkstall on February 27, 2011, 07:11:09 PM

Hmmmm.....I have alway had the smilies and could drag the text box open from day one.  I only had the problem of thing being wide when they did the up date and then they fixed it. 

hmmm, mine weren't working, but they are now....

Quote from: taxed on February 27, 2011, 07:16:24 PM
hmmm, mine weren't working, but they are now....

Hmmm...mom always like me best.   :P

Quote from: walkstall on February 27, 2011, 07:22:44 PM

Hmmm...mom always like me best.   :P

Duke always loved you best...