The Bible

[Darth Fife]

Let me ask the combined brain trust of intelligent Christians on this forum the following questions.

1. What is the origin of the Bible, both Old Testament and New Testament?

2. What is the authority the history and teachings of the Bible base are based upon?

3. Who has the authority to say which laws in the Bible are inviolable and which are subject to interpretation?

-Darth 

[MFA]

Let me ask the combined brain trust of intelligent Christians on this forum the following questions.

Good topic.  Let's watch the fireworks fly...

1. What is the origin of the Bible, both Old Testament and New Testament?

Original and compiled documents written by a lot of people over a long time, guided by God's purpose.

2. What is the authority the history and teachings of the Bible base are based upon?

I'm not sure what you mean by this question...do you mean, how do we know these texts are authoritative?

3. Who has the authority to say which laws in the Bible are inviolable and which are subject to interpretation?

-Darth

The community of followers of Jesus as guided by the Holy Spirit.  Most of that, however, is pretty explicit in the text itself, if people are willing to take the whole thing at face value and in textual and historical context.  The most obvious example is the law as given to the Israelites under the Mosaic Covenant.  Some people say that every instruction in the Bible is always true for all people.  This is demonstrably not the case, since the vast majority of Christians don't go to Troas bringing Paul's cloak and parchments...

[Darth Fife]

Good topic.  Let's watch the fireworks fly...

Original and compiled documents written by a lot of people over a long time, guided by God's purpose.

I'm not sure what you mean by this question...do you mean, how do we know these texts are authoritative?

Exactly. This relates to your first answer - guided by God's purpose. How can we be sure that God's purpose has anything to do with the Bible?

The community of followers of Jesus as guided by the Holy Spirit.  Most of that, however, is pretty explicit in the text itself, if people are willing to take the whole thing at face value and in textual and historical context.  The most obvious example is the law as given to the Israelites under the Mosaic Covenant.  Some people say that every instruction in the Bible is always true for all people.  This is demonstrably not the case, since the vast majority of Christians don't go to Troas bringing Paul's cloak and parchments...

There are a myriad of interpretations of what the Bible means and which parts of it are applicable and which parts are less important, and everyone, from Paul the Apostle, to Martin Luther, to Joseph Smith and David Koresh, claim that their interpretation of the Bible and its content were guided by the Holy Spirit.

How can we tell which one is true and correct?

-Darth

[MFA]

Exactly. This relates to your first answer - guided by God's purpose. How can we be sure that God's purpose has anything to do with the Bible?

A big-picture evaluation--looking at the veracity of the texts, the trustworthiness of the texts, evaluating the message(s) in light of my own experience, etc.  If Jesus is real, and what the Bible says about him is true, then what he says about scripture carries weight as well.

Ultimately, the relevant question is, can I trust it?

There are a myriad of interpretations of what the Bible means and which parts of it are applicable and which parts are less important, and everyone, from Paul the Apostle, to Martin Luther, to Joseph Smith and David Koresh, claim that their interpretation of the Bible and its content were guided by the Holy Spirit.

How can we tell which one is true and correct?

-Darth

There are a lot of generalizations in there...

First of all, Paul the Apostle--did he interpret "the Bible"?  "The Bible" as such didn't even exist when he was writing letters that would later be incorporated into "the Bible."  So...I'm not sure what you mean by that.

As for Martin Luther, Joseph Smith, and David Koresh--can you be clear exactly where they diverged in their interpretations?

Also, you're talking about individuals here.  I think I specifically said that the Bible is best interpreted in community.  David Koresh, for one, didn't interpret in community.  He had a community that followed him and he gave them the interpretation.  He was accountable to no one.

[Moishe3rd]

Let me ask the combined brain trust of intelligent Christians on this forum the following questions.

1. What is the origin of the Bible, both Old Testament and New Testament?

Well, as a Jew, I realize you ain't addressing me but - for what it's worth:
Tanach (the "old testament") is a compilation of writings that are mostly Divinely inspired.  The Torah; the First Five Books of Tanach, come directly from G-d and were given to Moshe Rabbeinu on Har Sinai.

2. What is the authority the history and teachings of the Bible base are based upon?

The Written Torah - the First Five Books of the Bible, come directly from G-d.
The Oral Torah, which is the explanation of the Written Torah, also comes directly from G-d; transmitted to Moses; transmitted to Joshua and the Elders; transmitted for about 1,500 years orally; and then written down in what is commonly referred to as the Talmud.
The Authority is G-d.

3. Who has the authority to say which laws in the Bible are inviolable and which are subject to interpretation?

All Laws must be interpreted.
The Authority for interpretation rests with Rabbis; Great Sages; who have studied the collected Works of the Written Torah and Oral Torah that have come before them.
Which means today, those Gedolim (Great Sages) who are intricately familiar with all of the previous 3,000 years of Written Law; Oral Law; and all of their accompanying Commentaries and insights.

[MFA]

The Authority for interpretation rests with Rabbis; Great Sages; who have studied the collected Works of the Written Torah and Oral Torah that have come before them.
Which means today, those Gedolim (Great Sages) who are intricately familiar with all of the previous 3,000 years of Written Law; Oral Law; and all of their accompanying Commentaries and insights.

Who determines whether or not someone is one of the Gedolim?  Consider, for example, David Koresh--a self-proclaimed authority.  Is there room for someone to proclaim himself a Great Sage?  If so, what protects against misinterpretation?

[supsalemgr]

Darth, I only have one question for you.

When something occurs in your life that is bigger than you are, what do you do?

[MFA]

Darth, I only have one question for you.

When something occurs in your life that is bigger than you are, what do you do?

It's a great question but there's no real relevance to this thread.  Darth Fife's questions are legitimate regardless of whether you agree or disagree with his conclusions.

[Yawn]

Who determines whether or not someone is one of the Gedolim?  Consider, for example, David Koresh--a self-proclaimed authority.  Is there room for someone to proclaim himself a Great Sage?  If so, what protects against misinterpretation?

I know this is irrelevant to the thread, but not to your post. Koresh was not the demon the federal government (who murdered his group in a Holocaust) made him out to be. My religious views have more in common with his than the Catholics or the Daughter churches (Protestants). I agree with him on the Sabbath, the Resurrection of the Dead, etc.

This government and their mouthpieces in the media do nothing but destroy reputations and provide cover for the guilty.

[Moishe3rd]

Who determines whether or not someone is one of the Gedolim?  Consider, for example, David Koresh--a self-proclaimed authority.  Is there room for someone to proclaim himself a Great Sage?  If so, what protects against misinterpretation?

Time.
Judaism is a religion of Traditions passed down from generation to generation for thousands of years.
For instance, Rabbi Yehuda HaNassi began redacting the transmissions of the Oral Torah towards the end of the 2nd Century CE.  But what he did was record all of the different schools of thought; the discussions; the arguments; the questions; and every other transmission of the Oral Torah that he could find.  Most of the discussions were from the rabbis of the previous 300 years.  But he also recorded the transmissions of the explanations of Tanach (the "old testament") and the Torah from the previous 1300 years.
This was called the Mishna.
The Rabbis (Great Sages) then spent the next 200 years or so, writing down all of the arguments; discussions; questions; etc. of the Oral Torah on the Mishnayos in much more lengthy volumes called the Gemara.
So, we are talking about a four or five hundred year discussion of what exactly is Jewish Law based on the Written Torah, Tanach, and the Oral Torah.
The Rabbis have then spent the next 1500 hundred years, using the Torah; what is called the Talmud (the Mishna and Gemara); and Tanach, to examine each and every idea (as a matter of fact - to examine each and every letter in the Torah; every phrase and how the Torah is written; and every single possible idea in the Torah) to determine Jewish Law.
Those who have truly mastered ALL of this material are called Gedolim; Great Rabbis.

For instance - the Rambam (Maimonides), 12th Century; is considered one of the Greatest Jewish Rabbis that ever lived.  He has been compared to Moshe Rabbeinu; Moses our Teacher.
His writings and Works are the basis for some of the compilations of Jewish Law.
However,  in the 13th Century, there was a strong contingent of Rabbis who opposed everything he wrote - because he did not cite his sources!  At one point, his works were burned in public.
Over the next 200 plus years, other Gedolim examined his writings and works and wrote their own commentaries verifying the Rambam's sources.

There have been some dark periods of Jewish history, where charismatic charlatans who were ignoramuses like Koresh led the Jewish people astray but, they have all eventually been exposed as frauds.

It is difficult to fake detailed knowledge of all of the Writings of Judaism of the last 2,000 plus years...

[kramarat]

I think that part of the problem is the assumption that God, Jesus, the Bible, etc., are ancient history. I would suggest that anyone that has questions about these things, to simply ask God or His Son to give guidance. They will answer; and they are the only ones that are qualified to give the answers. They may not be the same for everyone.

[kramarat]

I know this is irrelevant to the thread, but not to your post. Koresh was not the demon the federal government (who murdered his group in a Holocaust) made him out to be. My religious views have more in common with his than the Catholics or the Daughter churches (Protestants). I agree with him on the Sabbath, the Resurrection of the Dead, etc.

This government and their mouthpieces in the media do nothing but destroy reputations and provide cover for the guilty.

I will never agree with the murders that the government decided to commit on that compound, but Koresh was insane.

If the corrupt government wanted to bust him, they should have got him for having sex with children, and busted him alone.

[Yawn]

How was he "insane"?

[Yawn]

A video just before he and his entire group was murdered

David Koresh Tells The Truth About Waco

[Solar]

How was he "insane"?

To this day, I still don't know what he did wrong.