Let me ask the combined brain trust of intelligent Christians on this forum the following questions.
1. What is the origin of the Bible, both Old Testament and New Testament?
2. What is the authority the history and teachings of the Bible base are based upon?
3. Who has the authority to say which laws in the Bible are inviolable and which are subject to interpretation?
-Darth
Quote from: Darth Fife on June 14, 2013, 10:25:17 AM
Let me ask the combined brain trust of intelligent Christians on this forum the following questions.
Good topic. Let's watch the fireworks fly...
Quote1. What is the origin of the Bible, both Old Testament and New Testament?
Original and compiled documents written by a lot of people over a long time, guided by God's purpose.
Quote2. What is the authority the history and teachings of the Bible base are based upon?
I'm not sure what you mean by this question...do you mean, how do we know these texts are authoritative?
Quote3. Who has the authority to say which laws in the Bible are inviolable and which are subject to interpretation?
-Darth
The community of followers of Jesus as guided by the Holy Spirit. Most of that, however, is pretty explicit in the text itself, if people are willing to take the whole thing at face value and in textual and historical context. The most obvious example is the law as given to the Israelites under the Mosaic Covenant. Some people say that every instruction in the Bible is always true for all people. This is demonstrably not the case, since the vast majority of Christians don't go to Troas bringing Paul's cloak and parchments...
Quote from: MFA on June 14, 2013, 11:38:57 AM
Good topic. Let's watch the fireworks fly...
Original and compiled documents written by a lot of people over a long time, guided by God's purpose.
I'm not sure what you mean by this question...do you mean, how do we know these texts are authoritative?
Exactly. This relates to your first answer -
guided by God's purpose. How can we be sure that God's purpose has anything to do with the Bible?
QuoteThe community of followers of Jesus as guided by the Holy Spirit. Most of that, however, is pretty explicit in the text itself, if people are willing to take the whole thing at face value and in textual and historical context. The most obvious example is the law as given to the Israelites under the Mosaic Covenant. Some people say that every instruction in the Bible is always true for all people. This is demonstrably not the case, since the vast majority of Christians don't go to Troas bringing Paul's cloak and parchments...
There are a myriad of interpretations of what the Bible means and which parts of it are applicable and which parts are less important, and everyone, from Paul the Apostle, to Martin Luther, to Joseph Smith and David Koresh, claim that their interpretation of the Bible and its content were guided by the Holy Spirit.
How can we tell which one is true and correct?
-Darth
Quote from: Darth Fife on June 14, 2013, 11:50:39 AM
Exactly. This relates to your first answer - guided by God's purpose. How can we be sure that God's purpose has anything to do with the Bible?
A big-picture evaluation--looking at the veracity of the texts, the trustworthiness of the texts, evaluating the message(s) in light of my own experience, etc. If Jesus is real, and what the Bible says about him is true, then what he says about scripture carries weight as well.
Ultimately, the relevant question is, can I trust it?
QuoteThere are a myriad of interpretations of what the Bible means and which parts of it are applicable and which parts are less important, and everyone, from Paul the Apostle, to Martin Luther, to Joseph Smith and David Koresh, claim that their interpretation of the Bible and its content were guided by the Holy Spirit.
How can we tell which one is true and correct?
-Darth
There are a lot of generalizations in there...
First of all, Paul the Apostle--did he interpret "the Bible"? "The Bible" as such didn't even exist when he was writing letters that would later be incorporated into "the Bible." So...I'm not sure what you mean by that.
As for Martin Luther, Joseph Smith, and David Koresh--can you be clear exactly where they diverged in their interpretations?
Also, you're talking about
individuals here. I think I specifically said that the Bible is best interpreted
in community. David Koresh, for one, didn't interpret in community. He had a community that followed him and he gave them the interpretation. He was accountable to no one.
Quote from: Darth Fife on June 14, 2013, 10:25:17 AM
Let me ask the combined brain trust of intelligent Christians on this forum the following questions.
1. What is the origin of the Bible, both Old Testament and New Testament?
Well, as a Jew, I realize you ain't addressing me but - for what it's worth:
Tanach (the "old testament") is a compilation of writings that are mostly Divinely inspired. The Torah; the First Five Books of Tanach, come directly from G-d and were given to Moshe Rabbeinu on Har Sinai.
Quote2. What is the authority the history and teachings of the Bible base are based upon?
The Written Torah - the First Five Books of the Bible, come directly from G-d.
The Oral Torah, which is the explanation of the Written Torah, also comes directly from G-d; transmitted to Moses; transmitted to Joshua and the Elders; transmitted for about 1,500 years orally; and then written down in what is commonly referred to as the Talmud.
The Authority is G-d.
Quote3. Who has the authority to say which laws in the Bible are inviolable and which are subject to interpretation?
All Laws must be interpreted.
The Authority for interpretation rests with Rabbis; Great Sages; who have studied the collected Works of the Written Torah and Oral Torah that have come before them.
Which means today, those Gedolim (Great Sages) who are intricately familiar with all of the previous 3,000 years of Written Law; Oral Law; and all of their accompanying Commentaries and insights.
Quote from: Moishe3rd on June 14, 2013, 01:11:31 PM
The Authority for interpretation rests with Rabbis; Great Sages; who have studied the collected Works of the Written Torah and Oral Torah that have come before them.
Which means today, those Gedolim (Great Sages) who are intricately familiar with all of the previous 3,000 years of Written Law; Oral Law; and all of their accompanying Commentaries and insights.
Who determines whether or not someone is one of the Gedolim? Consider, for example, David Koresh--a self-proclaimed authority. Is there room for someone to proclaim
himself a Great Sage? If so, what protects against misinterpretation?
Darth, I only have one question for you.
When something occurs in your life that is bigger than you are, what do you do?
Quote from: supsalemgr on June 14, 2013, 03:08:42 PM
Darth, I only have one question for you.
When something occurs in your life that is bigger than you are, what do you do?
It's a great question but there's no real relevance to this thread. Darth Fife's questions are legitimate regardless of whether you agree or disagree with his conclusions.
Quote from: MFA on June 14, 2013, 01:46:52 PM
Who determines whether or not someone is one of the Gedolim? Consider, for example, David Koresh--a self-proclaimed authority. Is there room for someone to proclaim himself a Great Sage? If so, what protects against misinterpretation?
I know this is irrelevant to the thread, but not to your post. Koresh was not the demon the federal government (who murdered his group in a Holocaust) made him out to be. My religious views have more in common with his than the Catholics or the Daughter churches (Protestants). I agree with him on the Sabbath, the Resurrection of the Dead, etc.
This government and their mouthpieces in the media do nothing but destroy reputations and provide cover for the guilty.
Quote from: MFA on June 14, 2013, 01:46:52 PM
Who determines whether or not someone is one of the Gedolim? Consider, for example, David Koresh--a self-proclaimed authority. Is there room for someone to proclaim himself a Great Sage? If so, what protects against misinterpretation?
Time.
Judaism is a religion of Traditions passed down from generation to generation for thousands of years.
For instance, Rabbi Yehuda HaNassi began redacting the transmissions of the Oral Torah towards the end of the 2nd Century CE. But what he did was record all of the different schools of thought; the discussions; the arguments; the questions; and every other transmission of the Oral Torah that he could find. Most of the discussions were from the rabbis of the previous 300 years. But he also recorded the transmissions of the explanations of Tanach (the "old testament") and the Torah from the previous 1300 years.
This was called the Mishna.
The Rabbis (Great Sages) then spent the next 200 years or so, writing down all of the arguments; discussions; questions; etc. of the Oral Torah on the Mishnayos in much more lengthy volumes called the Gemara.
So, we are talking about a four or five hundred year discussion of what exactly is Jewish Law based on the Written Torah, Tanach, and the Oral Torah.
The Rabbis have then spent the next 1500 hundred years, using the Torah; what is called the Talmud (the Mishna and Gemara); and Tanach, to examine each and every idea (as a matter of fact - to examine each and every letter in the Torah; every phrase and how the Torah is written; and every single possible idea in the Torah) to determine Jewish Law.
Those who have truly mastered ALL of this material are called Gedolim; Great Rabbis.
For instance - the Rambam (Maimonides), 12th Century; is considered one of the Greatest Jewish Rabbis that ever lived. He has been compared to Moshe Rabbeinu; Moses our Teacher.
His writings and Works are the basis for some of the compilations of Jewish Law.
However, in the 13th Century, there was a strong contingent of Rabbis who opposed everything he wrote - because he did not cite his sources! At one point, his works were burned in public.
Over the next 200 plus years, other Gedolim examined his writings and works and wrote their own commentaries verifying the Rambam's sources.
There have been some dark periods of Jewish history, where charismatic charlatans who were ignoramuses like Koresh led the Jewish people astray but, they have all eventually been exposed as frauds.
It is difficult to fake detailed knowledge of all of the Writings of Judaism of the last 2,000 plus years...
I think that part of the problem is the assumption that God, Jesus, the Bible, etc., are ancient history. I would suggest that anyone that has questions about these things, to simply ask God or His Son to give guidance. They will answer; and they are the only ones that are qualified to give the answers. They may not be the same for everyone.
Quote from: Yawn on June 16, 2013, 05:18:23 AM
I know this is irrelevant to the thread, but not to your post. Koresh was not the demon the federal government (who murdered his group in a Holocaust) made him out to be. My religious views have more in common with his than the Catholics or the Daughter churches (Protestants). I agree with him on the Sabbath, the Resurrection of the Dead, etc.
This government and their mouthpieces in the media do nothing but destroy reputations and provide cover for the guilty.
I will never agree with the murders that the government decided to commit on that compound, but Koresh was insane.
If the corrupt government wanted to bust him, they should have got him for having sex with children, and busted
him alone.
How was he "insane"?
A video just before he and his entire group was murdered
David Koresh Tells The Truth About Waco (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbQFB8crxok#)
Quote from: Yawn on June 23, 2013, 12:57:18 PM
How was he "insane"?
To this day, I still don't know what he did wrong.
Quote from: Solar on June 23, 2013, 03:08:33 PM
To this day, I still don't know what he did wrong.
Running harem which included children...?
Quote from: MFA on June 23, 2013, 05:17:01 PM
Running harem which included children...?
So says the Govt that murdered the same children they claimed he harmed?
I don't buy it.
Quote from: Solar on June 23, 2013, 06:14:00 PM
So says the Govt that murdered the same children they claimed he harmed?
I don't buy it.
You might be right.
There is a pattern in cult leaders that have done this...
Quote from: MFA on June 23, 2013, 07:04:46 PM
You might be right.
There is a pattern in cult leaders that have done this...
It bothers me that I can no longer trust my Govt.
Quote from: Solar on June 23, 2013, 07:06:31 PM
It bothers me that I can no longer trust my Govt.
This is not criticism, sir. But NEVER in my life have I trusted my government. Government, by its very nature and construction, is a thing that should never be trusted.
Quote from: TboneAgain on June 23, 2013, 07:11:41 PM
This is not criticism, sir. But NEVER in my life have I trusted my government. Government, by its very nature and construction, is a thing that should never be trusted.
Lets just say I had faith that good people would win out over the corrupt in the past, people like Reagan.
Those days are long gone, I no longer trust any Govt entity.
Quote from: Solar on June 23, 2013, 03:08:33 PM
To this day, I still don't know what he did wrong.
C'mon guys. Like I said, I'll never condone government murder, but Koresh was off on a really strange tangent.
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/04/us/growing-up-under-koresh-cult-children-tell-of-abuses.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm (http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/04/us/growing-up-under-koresh-cult-children-tell-of-abuses.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm)
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-07-20/news/9507200155_1_kiri-jewell-branch-davidian-waco (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-07-20/news/9507200155_1_kiri-jewell-branch-davidian-waco)
Strangely enough, the guns were legal.
Quote from: kramarat on June 24, 2013, 05:26:55 AM
C'mon guys. Like I said, I'll never condone government murder, but Koresh was off on a really strange tangent.
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/04/us/growing-up-under-koresh-cult-children-tell-of-abuses.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm (http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/04/us/growing-up-under-koresh-cult-children-tell-of-abuses.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm)
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-07-20/news/9507200155_1_kiri-jewell-branch-davidian-waco (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-07-20/news/9507200155_1_kiri-jewell-branch-davidian-waco)
Strangely enough, the guns were legal.
Both your sources are extreme liberal sites, the same ones that tried and convicted Richard Jewel before he even went to court.
Both CT and the NY Times carry water for any Clinton, especially back when Reno was running things, neither paper carry any credibility, they both had and still have an agenda.
I'm not saying he was innocent, I'm saying I don't trust the Govt for anything.
Quote from: kramarat on June 24, 2013, 05:26:55 AM
C'mon guys. Like I said, I'll never condone government murder, but Koresh was off on a really strange tangent.
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/04/us/growing-up-under-koresh-cult-children-tell-of-abuses.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm (http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/04/us/growing-up-under-koresh-cult-children-tell-of-abuses.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm)
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-07-20/news/9507200155_1_kiri-jewell-branch-davidian-waco (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-07-20/news/9507200155_1_kiri-jewell-branch-davidian-waco)
Strangely enough, the guns were legal.
Um, excuse me, but being "off on a really strange tangent" ain't exactly illegal. Bill Maher makes millions of dollars every year being "off on a really strange tangent" on HBO.
Seventy-six people, including 20 kids and two pregnant mothers, died that day in a fire set in a plywood Texas tinderbox almost certainly by agents of the federal government. Looking at in a different way, even if we assume that the feds were angels, that fire
would not have occurred had those federal agents been elsewhere, minding their own damn business, instead of assembling outside the Branch Davidian compound with loudspeakers and automatic weapons and tanks and incendiary devices.
Waco is an example of just how bad government can be.
Quote from: TboneAgain on June 24, 2013, 01:00:56 PM
Um, excuse me, but being "off on a really strange tangent" ain't exactly illegal. Bill Maher makes millions of dollars every year being "off on a really strange tangent" on HBO.
Seventy-six people, including 20 kids and two pregnant mothers, died that day in a fire set in a plywood Texas tinderbox almost certainly by agents of the federal government. Looking at in a different way, even if we assume that the feds were angels, that fire would not have occurred had those federal agents been elsewhere, minding their own damn business, instead of assembling outside the Branch Davidian compound with loudspeakers and automatic weapons and tanks and incendiary devices.
Waco is an example of just how bad government can be.
Correct. Janet Reno should be rotting in prison.
The correct action for the authorities to have taken, would be to have taken out a warrant based on the allegations of former members, that Koresh was having sex with children. From there they could have sent in an undercover person, seen if the allegations were true, and, if so, arrested Koresh.
The illegal actions on the part of our corrupt government, and the fact that Koresh was a freak pedophile, have nothing to do with each other. I was responding to what Yawn said about agreeing with Koresh's teachings. The fact that he was having sex with children didn't emerge until well after the illegal government assault. But sex with kids, is indeed, illegal.
Quote from: kramarat on June 24, 2013, 02:26:10 PM
Correct. Janet Reno should be rotting in prison.
The correct action for the authorities to have taken, would be to have taken out a warrant based on the allegations of former members, that Koresh was having sex with children. From there they could have sent in an undercover person, seen if the allegations were true, and, if so, arrested Koresh.
The illegal actions on the part of our corrupt government, and the fact that Koresh was a freak pedophile, have nothing to do with each other. I was responding to what Yawn said about agreeing with Koresh's teachings. The fact that he was having sex with children didn't emerge until well after the illegal government assault. But sex with kids, is indeed, illegal.
Yep, sex with kids illegal. Where's the proof? The feds didn't investigate the matter. They didn't even try to detain Koresh when he was in town and they were following him. They made no effort to get an informant planted inside the compound.
They burned the damn place to the ground! They killed everybody inside, including at least 20 potential victims of pedophilia!
Where's the DNA? Where's the eyewitness testimony? Where's the fulfillment of the heavy burden of proof normal in a felony case?
They burned it! They couldn't get this guy to work with them, so they burned the place to the ground.
I have never been so ashamed to be an American as I was on the day my damned government burned that place in Waco. It was mass murder by fire, simple as that.
Quote from: TboneAgain on June 24, 2013, 02:36:32 PM
Yep, sex with kids illegal. Where's the proof? The feds didn't investigate the matter. They didn't even try to detain Koresh when he was in town and they were following him. They made no effort to get an informant planted inside the compound.
They burned the damn place to the ground! They killed everybody inside, including at least 20 potential victims of pedophilia!
Where's the DNA? Where's the eyewitness testimony? Where's the fulfillment of the heavy burden of proof normal in a felony case?
They burned it! They couldn't get this guy to work with them, so they burned the place to the ground.
I have never been so ashamed to be an American as I was on the day my damned government burned that place in Waco. It was mass murder by fire, simple as that.
I'm with you 100%. I couldn't believe what I was seeing unfold.
The allegations of sex with kids, beatings, etc., should have been handled by the local authorities. All we have in regard to the sex with children, is their own accounts
after the fact.
All I'm saying: Is that the ATF had no business there. The government had no business burning those people. Janet Reno is a criminal.
AND
David Koresh was not the savior he pretended to be. I don't think what he was doing is right.
I am in no way justifying what the ATF did.
I think that Koresh was a delusional cult leader that was beginning to see himself as the embodiment of Jesus Christ, and twisting the Bible to serve his own desires....BUT....He had also not been charged with any crime, nor convicted of any crime, which makes the entire ATF raid, illegal and unconstitutional.
Quote from: kramarat on June 24, 2013, 04:18:29 PM
I'm with you 100%. I couldn't believe what I was seeing unfold.
The allegations of sex with kids, beatings, etc., should have been handled by the local authorities. All we have in regard to the sex with children, is their own accounts after the fact.
All I'm saying: Is that the ATF had no business there. The government had no business burning those people. Janet Reno is a criminal.
AND
David Koresh was not the savior he pretended to be. I don't think what he was doing is right.
I am in no way justifying what the ATF did.
I think that Koresh was a delusional cult leader that was beginning to see himself as the embodiment of Jesus Christ, and twisting the Bible to serve his own desires....BUT....He had also not been charged with any crime, nor convicted of any crime, which makes the entire ATF raid, illegal and unconstitutional.
I think we're agreeing here. David Koresh was a nutball, a very strange dude with some very strange ideas. Did he have sex with underage kids? I don't know, and neither do because Koresh and the kids are ALL dead now, thanks to our federal government.
Last time I checked, it's not against any law to be a nutball in the United States. It's not illegal to be a very strange dude with some very strange ideas. (There are those who would accuse this writer of being a nutball with strange ideas. They are SO misguided.)
Janet Reno and Bill Clinton should be rotting together -- in the same cell. I'll leave the rest to your imagination. (Like, who's on top?)
Quote from: TboneAgain on June 24, 2013, 05:32:18 PM
I think we're agreeing here. David Koresh was a nutball, a very strange dude with some very strange ideas. Did he have sex with underage kids? I don't know, and neither do because Koresh and the kids are ALL dead now, thanks to our federal government.
Last time I checked, it's not against any law to be a nutball in the United States. It's not illegal to be a very strange dude with some very strange ideas. (There are those who would accuse this writer of being a nutball with strange ideas. They are SO misguided.)
Janet Reno and Bill Clinton should be rotting together -- in the same cell. I'll leave the rest to your imagination. (Like, who's on top?)
Yeah, we're agreeing.
My opinion of Koresh, and my opinion of the illegal murder of US citizens by the ATF, Reno, and Clinton, are completely independent of each other.
Quote from: TboneAgain on June 24, 2013, 05:32:18 PM
I think we're agreeing here. David Koresh was a nutball, a very strange dude with some very strange ideas. Did he have sex with underage kids? I don't know, and neither do because Koresh and the kids are ALL dead now, thanks to our federal government.
Now where did you pick that up? The ONLY source of that is the Federal Government (Clinton Administration).
Does that make sense????
He was targeted on GUN charges. They murdered everyone there then bulldozed everything under within days. They said, AFTER THE FACT, that Koresh was some sort of pervert. And the gullible (even here) swallow what Bill Clinton puts out.
Some of you just don't think thing thru. Government says something to cover their crimes, the lapdog media (who loved Clinton the way they love Obama) runs with it, and you accept it!
Koresh was on friendly terms with the sheriff. If he was committing crimes at that compound, why would they ignore it until the Feds murdered the entire group?
I know the beliefs of the Branch Davidians. They're an offshoot of the 7th Day Adventists. My beliefs are similar to both. They make more sense than the insane beliefs of the Catholics or the Muslims!
Here's a little nugget from HILLARY'S past:
"Torch the Mother fuckers. Do it today!" That was the direct order given Janet Reno's Justice Department by Hillary Rodham Clinton from the East Wing of the White House.
What the govewrnment says:
QuoteLawyers for the government contend it is not to blame for the suffering.
"The responsibility for those tragic events should not be placed upon the shoulders of the brave men and women of the ATF and the FBI," U.S. Attorney Michael Bradford said in opening statements of the trial. "The responsibility for what happened at Mount Carmel is on David Koresh and the Branch Davidians. They caused this dangerous situation to occur, and they brought it to a tragic end."
U.S. attorneys say Koresh had built a stockpile of legal and illegal weapons while teaching members that the world would end in a bloody confrontation with the government.
He also required men and women, husbands and wives, to sleep in separate areas and discouraged intimate contact between them. However, Koresh fathered children with several females who lived at Mount Carmel. Some were reportedly only 14 years old when they were "married" to Koresh for "spiritual purposes."
Government attorneys also say bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents were only trying to do their job - serve search and arrest warrants for weapons violations - when sect members, who were "armed to the teeth," ambushed them.
Survivors say....
"It's been suggested that
careful analysis of the 911 tapes reveals that the Branch Davidians didn't return fire until 9 to 15 minutes into the gun battle."
Re: How much time passed before the Branch Davidians returned fire?
The very fact that their first response was to call 911 and beg the dispatcher to "call it off" reveals a lot. Namely, that they were not lying in wait to "ambush" the agents, contrary to the media spin."
"Let's not forget that 99.9% of what the media reported was received at the daily ATF and later FBI press conferences. The ** ONLY ** information they were provided was from the "authorities" and with nothing to refute it, it was accepted as fact."
Dave Thibodeau said that he saw David Koresh come down the stairs adjacent to the cafeteria with several men who were armed. That was about 10 minutes before the ATF arrived. Koresh shouted,
"Don't anybody do anything stupid! I'm going to go talk to them!" But Koresh also said, "No one comes in."
The dogs were exterminated by the agents - we know that. We know that within seconds of the raid's beginning Koresh was taken under fire at the front door, unarmed, and Perry Jones was shot in the stomach - he was also unarmed. We also know that the onrushing agents who were supposed to enter Mt. Carmel by way of the front door were stopped in their tracks by something - presumably return fire that forced them to retreat to cover.
Bottom line, "THEY" could do this to you -- sell their side to the media -- and you too will be judged "insane" by people who know nothing about a government assault targeting YOU.
Quote from: Yawn on June 25, 2013, 05:35:39 PM
Now where did you pick that up? The ONLY source of that is the Federal Government (Clinton Administration).
Does that make sense????
He was targeted on GUN charges. They murdered everyone there then bulldozed everything under within days. They said, AFTER THE FACT, that Koresh was some sort of pervert. And the gullible (even here) swallow what Bill Clinton puts out.
Some of you just don't think thing thru. Government says something to cover their crimes, the lapdog media (who loved Clinton the way they love Obama) runs with it, and you accept it!
Koresh was on friendly terms with the sheriff. If he was committing crimes at that compound, why would they ignore it until the Feds murdered the entire group?
I know the beliefs of the Branch Davidians. They're an offshoot of the 7th Day Adventists. My beliefs are similar to both. They make more sense than the insane beliefs of the Catholics or the Muslims!
At some point, he slipped off the deep end...
http://www.has.vcu.edu/wrs/profiles/BranchDavidians.htm (http://www.has.vcu.edu/wrs/profiles/BranchDavidians.htm)
Quote from: Solar on June 23, 2013, 03:08:33 PM
To this day, I still don't know what he did wrong.
"Officially" illegal gun purchases.
In reality, told the local, state, federal governments to kiss off.
Now as for the OP's questions. The answer is simple really.
God