As an Atheist, I've had some spirited debates with members here about religion and faith. While I always tried to do so civilly, in the heat of the discussion, I may have said somethings that were unkind, and hurtful. If I did so, or anyone took my posts that way, I apologize.
Also...
I have cast aside my non-belief, and while I don't consider myself a traditional Christian, I do believe in a high power that is capable of interacting with us mere mortals. It's a new journey for me, and I'm not sure where I am being led, but, as in the past, I only seek the Truth.
Darth
I'm not religious, but believe in a higher power(s).
I'm forever fascinated that there are those who profess to believe that mankind is the random result of excited pond scum. In my mind, denying the existence of a higher power is the same as denying my own ability to type these words. Those who claim that the theory of evolution and the theory of creation cannot coexist are shallow fools, to be ignored.
Quote from: TboneAgain on November 07, 2014, 08:49:22 PM
I'm forever fascinated that there are those who profess to believe that mankind is the random result of excited pond scum. In my mind, denying the existence of a higher power is the same as denying my own ability to type these words. Those who claim that the theory of evolution and the theory of creation cannot coexist are shallow fools, to be ignored.
I always ask them if they think we're the only beings in the universe to evolve from monkeys.
Quote from: taxed on November 07, 2014, 08:52:46 PM
I always ask them if they think we're the only beings in the universe to evolve from monkeys.
Good point.
It occurs to me to wonder who came up with monkeys in the first place.
Quote from: TboneAgain on November 07, 2014, 08:59:55 PM
Good point.
It occurs to me to wonder who came up with monkeys in the first place.
Exactly. I know that there are lots of unexplained things, so I don't have the urge to ridicule those who are open or have faith of such things. I think our senses are calibrated and limited to receive and process input. A dog's hearing, for example, is way better than ours. I think that is true not only for the senses, but just understanding and conceptualizing our realities in general. So much stuff just "fits" too perfectly to me, or so it seems, so I do think we were engineered or created. Or something. I don't look in the sky, think about all the planets, and think about the universe, and then smaller way beyond the size of an atom and say "Yup, I got a handle on all this!".
Quote from: taxed on November 07, 2014, 09:35:26 PM
Exactly. I know that there are lots of unexplained things, so I don't have the urge to ridicule those who are open or have faith of such things. I think our senses are calibrated and limited to receive and process input. A dog's hearing, for example, is way better than ours. I think that is true not only for the senses, but just understanding and conceptualizing our realities in general. So much stuff just "fits" too perfectly to me, or so it seems, so I do think we were engineered or created. Or something. I don't look in the sky, think about all the planets, and think about the universe, and then smaller way beyond the size of an atom and say "Yup, I got a handle on all this!".
Excellent points, all. I would add that the dog who hears better than we can also can smell stuff something like 50,000 times better than we can. But at the same time, the dog's eyesight is relatively shitty, and he can't type -- or, as far as we know, think of a single word to type. Also, the dog can't speak vocally, unless you count "roof" as meaning the ceiling and "ruff" as meaning what sandpaper feels like. With some exceptions -- most caused by man's interventions -- what are so often referred to as God's creatures seem to get along remarkably well.
One thing I find so distasteful about modern science is the fact that so many of its practitioners seem to think they have it all figured out. (Think global warming.) Science is not an appendage of arrogance. In fact, it is, and always shall be, exactly the opposite -- the puncturing pin that deflates the arrogance. By definition, science is the endless question mark. The proper scientist says first of all, "I don't believe."
Quote from: taxed on November 07, 2014, 09:35:26 PM
Exactly. I know that there are lots of unexplained things, so I don't have the urge to ridicule those who are open or have faith of such things. I think our senses are calibrated and limited to receive and process input. A dog's hearing, for example, is way better than ours. I think that is true not only for the senses, but just understanding and conceptualizing our realities in general. So much stuff just "fits" too perfectly to me, or so it seems, so I do think we were engineered or created. Or something. I don't look in the sky, think about all the planets, and think about the universe, and then smaller way beyond the size of an atom and say "Yup, I got a handle on all this!".
At my age I don't even have a handle on a tad bit. :lol:
When I think I have learned something, a new door opens and lets more light in.
Quote from: TboneAgain on November 07, 2014, 09:56:38 PM
Excellent points, all. I would add that the dog who hears better than we can also can smell stuff something like 50,000 times better than we can. But at the same time, the dog's eyesight is relatively shitty, and he can't type -- or, as far as we know, think of a single word to type. Also, the dog can't speak vocally, unless you count "roof" as meaning the ceiling and "ruff" as meaning what sandpaper feels like. With some exceptions -- most caused by man's interventions -- what are so often referred to as God's creatures seem to get along remarkably well.
One thing I find so distasteful about modern science is the fact that so many of its practitioners seem to think they have it all figured out. (Think global warming.) Science is not an appendage of arrogance. In fact, it is, and always shall be, exactly the opposite -- the puncturing pin that deflates the arrogance. By definition, science is the endless question mark. The proper scientist says first of all, "I don't believe."
Totally. A bat can bounce sound off objects, but can't see anything. A fly can do stuff that I can't do, and just other aspects of nature, like a tree growing roots towards where it senses water is. Or when there's an earthquake, pets can't find their way back home. We all (plants, animals, humans, etc.) seem to be calibrated and in sync with the Earth. I just don't understand how, of course, but also why. What does the universe have to gain? Wasn't it just content being the universe? Why do we have all these other planets? Why an atmosphere? To even begin to pretend to understand it at a level that one can ridicule someone else for thinking there is something else responsible for this is insane to me. Can an amoeba conceptualize a human? If not, then why can't there be something beyond our reality that we can't conceptualize? For someone to say the eternal buck stops here with us humans just blows my mind.
Quote from: walkstall on November 07, 2014, 10:00:18 PM
At my age I don't even have a handle on a tad bit. :lol:
When I think I have learned something, a new door opens and lets more light in.
I've always said that the day I stop learning is the day I'll be finished with this life.
Quote from: TboneAgain on November 08, 2014, 06:59:00 AM
I've always said that the day I stop learning is the day I'll be finished with this life.
There would be nothing to get up for. :lol:
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 07, 2014, 08:27:47 PM
As an Atheist, I've had some spirited debates with members here about religion and faith. While I always tried to do so civilly, in the heat of the discussion, I may have said somethings that were unkind, and hurtful. If I did so, or anyone took my posts that way, I apologize.
Also...
I have cast aside my non-belief, and while I don't consider myself a traditional Christian, I do believe in a high power that is capable of interacting with us mere mortals. It's a new journey for me, and I'm not sure where I am being led, but, as in the past, I only seek the Truth.
Darth
I'd like to think my last post to you in the Religion forum, in some small way played a part in your ability to see another possibility, I know we had somewhat of a heated, not angry, but heated discussion on the topic.
Like you I too am of the nonreligious, but I respect others beliefs.
That is, with the exception of stupid Muscums of which should suffer the wrath they inflict upon others refusing to bow down to a pedophile prophet.. Off With Their Heads!!! :biggrin:
Quote from: Solar on November 08, 2014, 08:10:47 AM
I'd like to think my last post to you in the Religion forum, in some small way played a part in your ability to see another possibility, I know we had somewhat of a heated, not angry, but heated discussion on the topic.
Like you I too am of the nonreligious, but I respect others beliefs.
That is, with the exception of stupid Muscums of which should suffer the wrath they inflict upon others refusing to bow down to a pedophile prophet.. Off With Their Heads!!! :biggrin:
Save the towels though... they're super-absorbent when you have a plumbing backup.
Quote from: Solar on November 08, 2014, 08:10:47 AM
I'd like to think my last post to you in the Religion forum, in some small way played a part in your ability to see another possibility, I know we had somewhat of a heated, not angry, but heated discussion on the topic.
Like you I too am of the nonreligious, but I respect others beliefs.
That is, with the exception of stupid Muscums of which should suffer the wrath they inflict upon others refusing to bow down to a pedophile prophet.. Off With Their Heads!!! :biggrin:
Sorry, to burst your bubble, but I probably didn't see it...
If I didn't post a response to your response, it is more than likely I didn't come back to check on that thread.
Islam is Evil. Until the 99% of Muslims who aren't going around murdering innocent men, women and children rise up and oppose and defeat those who are attempting to hi-jack their faith, they are all accomplices of the Jihadist Murderers.
Darth
I am an atheist. Over time I have developed a simple philosophy for dealing with religious people: If you respect the fact that I don't believe in your god, and don't try to impose your religious beliefs on me, then I'll respect the fact that you have religious beliefs. It's a simple live and let live philosophy that has worked well for me.
However, if you come knocking on my door and try to convert me, then don't be insulted when I tell you I don't believe in supernatural things and I'm not interested in your beliefs.
Some religious people understand this and we get along fine because they don't try to force their beliefs on me, and in turn I do my best to be respectful of the fact that they have deeply held religious beliefs. Unfortunately this doesn't work with everyone, because there are some religious people who seem to get offended at the idea that you don't believe in something, and get all nasty about it, and I refuse to simply be quiet and let them impose their beliefs on me.
Quote from: Skeptic on November 08, 2014, 07:31:46 PM
I am an atheist. Over time I have developed a simple philosophy for dealing with religious people: If you respect the fact that I don't believe in your god, and don't try to impose your religious beliefs on me, then I'll respect the fact that you have religious beliefs. It's a simple live and let live philosophy that has worked well for me.
However, if you come knocking on my door and try to convert me, then don't be insulted when I tell you I don't believe in supernatural things and I'm not interested in your beliefs.
Some religious people understand this and we get along fine because they don't try to force their beliefs on me, and in turn I do my best to be respectful of the fact that they have deeply held religious beliefs. Unfortunately this doesn't work with everyone, because there are some religious people who seem to get offended at the idea that you don't believe in something, and get all nasty about it, and I refuse to simply be quiet and let them impose their beliefs on me.
What world are you living in where people are constantly trying to convert you?
Quote from: taxed on November 09, 2014, 01:03:47 AM
What world are you living in where people are constantly trying to convert you?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I was thinking the same thing. Looking back over the last 60 years, I can only recollect two occasions where someone insisted I listen to them make their case, but none of them tried to convert me.
The only ones that ever tried to convert me were Scientology members and staff forty years back, and even though I was young and somewhat impressionable, I knew those people were Nuckin Futs.
Looking back over the years, it was only Jehova Witness that pestered me, and they aren't even the "Evil Christians". :biggrin:
Quote from: taxed on November 09, 2014, 01:03:47 AM
What world are you living in where people are constantly trying to convert you?
I have had Jehovah Witnesses knock on my door 5 times this year and try to waste my time with their pamphlets and with readings from their bible. The last time I finally got so fed up that I told the guy trying to hand me a pamphlet to wait while I go get a copy of the Satanic Bible to hand to him so we can exchange ideas and I can talk to him about the wonders Satan can do for him. I've never seen anyone run away so fast. Naturally I don't really have any satanic literature since I believe that's also science fiction, but I thought I'd be worth the the try to see if I could finally scare them into leaving me alone. It has worked so far. They haven't knocked on my door for the last 2 months. :thumbup:
Quote from: Skeptic on November 09, 2014, 10:11:49 AM
I have had Jehovah Witnesses knock on my door 5 times this year and try to waste my time with their pamphlets and with readings from their bible. The last time I finally got so fed up that I told the guy trying to hand me a pamphlet to wait while I go get a copy of the Satanic Bible to hand to him so we can exchange ideas and I can talk to him about the wonders Satan can do for him. I've never seen anyone run away so fast. Naturally I don't really have any satanic literature since I believe that's also science fiction, but I thought I'd be worth the the try to see if I could finally scare them into leaving me alone. It has worked so far. They haven't knocked on my door for the last 2 months. :thumbup:
Most of us have Jehova Witnesses coming to our doors. The biggest problem to me is I have pause my show and tell them to scram, which really isn't a blip on my radar. Being the logical person that I am, those lost people coming to my door are in no way connected to my understanding, or lack of understanding, of the universe.
It never fails that someone who is devout in declaring themselves atheist have some other personal issue(s). Nobody confident and content in their life gives two craps about some Christian handing you a flier to their annual BBQ gathering, or seeing God in a courthouse.
Quote from: taxed on November 09, 2014, 02:07:05 PM
Most of us have Jehova Witnesses coming to our doors. The biggest problem to me is I have pause my show and tell them to scram, which really isn't a blip on my radar. Being the logical person that I am, those lost people coming to my door are in no way connected to my understanding, or lack of understanding, of the universe.
It never fails that someone who is devout in declaring themselves atheist have some other personal issue(s). Nobody confident and content in their life gives two craps about some Christian handing you a flier to their annual BBQ gathering, or seeing God in a courthouse.
That's been my experience as well, the more vocal atheists seem to be literally militant in their lack of beliefs/.
Quote from: Solar on November 09, 2014, 03:28:11 PM
That's been my experience as well, the more vocal atheists seem to be literally militant in their lack of beliefs/.
It's weird. They think they understand the universe and life to an extent where they can pacify their lack of self confidence by attempting to ridicule those who have faith or belief in their religion or deity. Just odd.
Quote from: taxed on November 09, 2014, 03:36:19 PM
It's weird. They think they understand the universe and life to an extent where they can pacify their lack of self confidence by attempting to ridicule those who have faith or belief in their religion or deity. Just odd.
I find it odd, that someone can have faith in nothing at all. :biggrin:
Quote from: Solar on November 09, 2014, 03:49:29 PM
I find it odd, that someone can have faith in nothing at all. :biggrin:
I'm not sure I've ever met a person with faith in nothing at all. It goes against the human grain, I think. A blanket rejection of recognized and/or organized religions is not the same as having no faith in anything.
Many of the most strident 'non-believers' actually have that sort of faith in unconventional things, like Gaia. Some approach that sort of fervor in the way they regard humanistic issues, particularly Leftist issues like LGBT rights and feminism.
Charlotte Allen, writing in the LA Times a couple years ago, said: "The problem is this: We conservatives think liberals are silly; they think we're evil." Others have made similar observations over the years, and I think there's a lot more than a grain of truth there. But the point is that evil cannot exist in the absence of righteousness, in the same way that darkness loses all meaning without the existence of light, and cold means nothing without the concept of heat. Taking it one step further, righteousness implies the existence of a superior truth, something that stands above the everyday give and take.
Bingo. You've got yourself a faith, a religion. The object of that faith might be solar energy or gay marriage or veganism or saving the whales, but whatever it is, it fills that void that I think exists in every human psyche -- that primal need to have purpose, a reason for existing. And in order to adopt these unconventional faiths, one must discard the conventional ones completely.
Shazam. You've got yourself an atheist.
Yeah, I assure you atheists believe in a lot of things, we just don't believe in all the thousands of different gods out there, including yours.
Quote from: Skeptic on November 09, 2014, 04:59:30 PM
Yeah, I assure you atheists believe in a lot of things, we just don't believe in all the thousands of different gods out there, including yours.
Psssst...There's only one.
Did you have a father, did your father have a father, and his father and so on? Well, that's life, and everything had a beginning and a father, if you will.
Whether or not the father is present in our lives or not, is irrelevant, the fact that we're here, validates his existence.
FWIW, I'm not religious in any sense of the word.
Quote from: Solar on November 09, 2014, 05:12:59 PM
Psssst...There's only one.
I have no doubt you honestly believe that, and that's perfectly fine. But there are other religions that would disagree with that, and their followers are as ardent believers about their beliefs as you are about yours.
Quote from: Skeptic on November 09, 2014, 06:09:42 PM
I have no doubt you honestly believe that, and that's perfectly fine. But there are other religions that would disagree with that, and their followers are as ardent believers about their beliefs as you are about yours.
And they're wrong damnit! My God can kick their Gods ass any day of the week. :biggrin:
But seriously, it all had to begin somewhere. Life itself exists and is always looking for a place to exist, if not, we wouldn't be here.
Quote from: Solar on November 09, 2014, 08:10:45 PM
And they're wrong damnit! My God can kick their Gods ass any day of the week. :biggrin:
But seriously, it all had to begin somewhere. Life itself exists and is always looking for a place to exist, if not, we wouldn't be here.
The simple fact that we can ponder our own genesis, our own beginnings, and our own fate -- where do we go from here? -- is enough for me. No matter how you feed the beast, it's there -- you have a need to feel that you're right here right now for a reason. I am not a cosmic accident, and if you (not you, Solar, but the rhetorical kind) think you're a cosmic accident, then we're all through talking.
Quote from: TboneAgain on November 09, 2014, 08:17:13 PM
The simple fact that we can ponder our own genesis, our own beginnings, and our own fate -- where do we go from here? -- is enough for me. No matter how you feed the beast, it's there -- you have a need to feel that you're right here right now for a reason. I am not a cosmic accident, and if you (not you, Solar, but the rhetorical kind) think you're a cosmic accident, then we're all through talking.
Exactly! What's the point?
One reason I have faith that there is more than just this blip in time, is I have actually and literally died 3 times, only to be revived, and afterwards recounting the journey.
No, I never saw a bright light, but I was told quite clearly, "It's not yet time", but I also remembering how I did not want to return to earth, even though I was having a wonderful life here on earth.
But I do look forward to my imminent demise. Just hope I die peacefully like my friend with an aneurysm, and not like the screaming passengers in his car at the time it went off the cliff. :rolleyes:
OK, that was bad, I''m going now.....
I recognize that having read a few research articles in scientific journals and a couple of science books does not make me an expert on evolution, and there are far more qualified people than I on the subject, but I know enough to know that the only people who call it a "cosmic accident" are creationist preachers.
I'll leave it at that, as I have no wish to engage in a debate between faith and observable scientific reality, nor is this really the place for it.
Solar, I'm glad you made it through your near death experiences. Sad about the others though, but that's life....short and unpredictable. People should remember more to enjoy it every day, because unlike sports, when life is done we don't get replays and re-matches.
Quote from: Skeptic on November 10, 2014, 03:14:58 PM
I recognize that having read a few research articles in scientific journals and a couple of science books does not make me an expert on evolution, and there are far more qualified people than I on the subject, but I know enough to know that the only people who call it a "cosmic accident" are creationist preachers.
I'll leave it at that, as I have no wish to engage in a debate between faith and observable scientific reality, nor is this really the place for it.
It's not clear what subject you have competence in to debate.
Quote from: Skeptic on November 10, 2014, 03:14:58 PM
I recognize that having read a few research articles in scientific journals and a couple of science books does not make me an expert on evolution, and there are far more qualified people than I on the subject, but I know enough to know that the only people who call it a "cosmic accident" are creationist preachers.
I'll leave it at that, as I have no wish to engage in a debate between faith and observable scientific reality, nor is this really the place for it.
Solar, I'm glad you made it through your near death experiences. Sad about the others though, but that's life....short and unpredictable. People should remember more to enjoy it every day, because unlike sports, when life is done we don't get replays and re-matches.
One thing I've learned through these events, is take absolutely nothing for granted. I was told in no uncertain terms I was being watched over and guided and to pay attention.
After one of my near misses, which is what I call a close call with death, was to listen to God, or others may refer to it as "gut instinct" or "may the force be with you", whatever, your pick.
What I would do is head for work, of course I hated the current job, menial at best, so I'd ask God, which way? He'd say hang a left, go in that building and befriend someone, anyone, and invariably, I not only met a new friend, I influenced their life in untold ways, but after a short conversation I would always get a tip on someone hiring, and a better paying job.
This works for anything, you just have to be willing to use your imagination and open your mind to possibilities beyond your control.
Like I said, I use the term God, but you can call it "asking the cosmos", whatever makes you comfortable.
Whatever it is, it's an untapped source of positive energy, the only requirement is faith, faith that there is something out there bigger than life and for those I've talked to on the subject, agree, it's a positive force.
This is nothing new, since the beginning of time, man has sought guidance from the heavens.
Religions call it Angels, or other deities, but in my opinion, it's the same force.
One not need be religious, or even believe in God, simply have faith that life has more to offer than the tangible.
Try it, tap into it, you'll be pleased as to the results.
This same energy made it possible for me to retire in my early 40s debt free.
Quote from: Skeptic on November 08, 2014, 07:31:46 PM
Unfortunately this doesn't work with everyone, because there are some religious people who seem to get offended at the idea that you don't believe in something, and get all nasty about it, and I refuse to simply be quiet and let them impose their beliefs on me.
Sounds like many atheists I know but none of the Christians, I have lost most of my childhood friends because they refuse to accept that I'm christian, have even had some of them scream at me like a hysterical woman because I'm against abortion, when I explain Kalam Cosmological argument they refuse to acknowledge that it is a legitimate philosophical standpoint to take to a logical rationalization of the existence of God or beginning of the universe and instead shut down my interruptions with ridicule along the lines with "so you believe Jesus walked on water what a fool you are haha" etc.
Of course all my current friends are atheist as well, and we have a mutual respect as we price Liberty above all else, and liberty is also the freedom to disagree.
Maybe it's different in Norway Christians live under constant ridicule by the media and pop culture so most Christians never express faith publicly and doing so in public bureaucracy will get you fired from work, so it is also an leftist atheist persecution of Christians while at the same time the leftist atheist embrace Islam. Most non state churches in Norway are closed to new members because of the fear of persecution and the fear of bringing the same ridicule they endure every day in the work place or school into church as well.
You never see Christians making fun of Atheists, but many atheists do everything they can to make fun of Christianity, just watch any of the most popular comedy show. I don't care myself, being a christian means enduring persecution as well, and if ridicule is the only thing I have to endure then that's fine with me compared to the execution/torture of Christians in North Korea, China, South-East Asia and Africa I'm thankful that it is not worse in the west.
I know some Christians in USA act very unchristian, and I suspect they are really satanic or atheists pretending to be christian as nothing they do is in line with Christianity or the Bible as i.e Westboro baptist church etc.
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 07, 2014, 08:27:47 PM
As an Atheist, I've had some spirited debates with members here about religion and faith. While I always tried to do so civilly, in the heat of the discussion, I may have said somethings that were unkind, and hurtful. If I did so, or anyone took my posts that way, I apologize.
Also...
I have cast aside my non-belief, and while I don't consider myself a traditional Christian, I do believe in a high power that is capable of interacting with us mere mortals. It's a new journey for me, and I'm not sure where I am being led, but, as in the past, I only seek the Truth.
Darth
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing. - Sokrates
Quote from: Solar on November 10, 2014, 05:59:54 PM
One thing I've learned through these events, is take absolutely nothing for granted. I was told in no uncertain terms I was being watched over and guided and to pay attention.
After one of my near misses, which is what I call a close call with death, was to listen to God, or others may refer to it as "gut instinct" or "may the force be with you", whatever, your pick.
What I would do is head for work, of course I hated the current job, menial at best, so I'd ask God, which way? He'd say hang a left, go in that building and befriend someone, anyone, and invariably, I not only met a new friend, I influenced their life in untold ways, but after a short conversation I would always get a tip on someone hiring, and a better paying job.
This works for anything, you just have to be willing to use your imagination and open your mind to possibilities beyond your control.
Like I said, I use the term God, but you can call it "asking the cosmos", whatever makes you comfortable.
Whatever it is, it's an untapped source of positive energy, the only requirement is faith, faith that there is something out there bigger than life and for those I've talked to on the subject, agree, it's a positive force.
This is nothing new, since the beginning of time, man has sought guidance from the heavens.
Religions call it Angels, or other deities, but in my opinion, it's the same force.
One not need be religious, or even believe in God, simply have faith that life has more to offer than the tangible.
Try it, tap into it, you'll be pleased as to the results.
This same energy made it possible for me to retire in my early 40s debt free.
Very nice story, I was lost until I turned to God, and my life has changed drastically for the better. Not only with finding a good job, but also a excellent wife I could never have hoped for before. Still working on the retire at 40 debt free though :tounge:
Have you ever considered Esotericism?
Quote from: Mountainshield on November 11, 2014, 01:10:01 AM
Very nice story, I was lost until I turned to God, and my life has changed drastically for the better. Not only with finding a good job, but also a excellent wife I could never have hoped for before. Still working on the retire at 40 debt free though :tounge:
Have you ever considered Esotericism?
I've tried, like millions before me all kinds of theologies, virtually everyone of them in seeking answers, including meditation, but what I kept being drawn back to was individualism and a direct connection with God.
Unlike many beliefs of an overseer, go between, conduit, intermediary as in Priest, what have you, or even mass worship as in a day of prayer, I found it all came back to the individual, only you can make a connection with God, to relinquish that to a group is to lose the one on one connection needed for guidance.
I judge no one and their relation with a higher power, at least they understand this life is nothing when compared.
I find it interesting how so many think fame will make them somehow immortal, that having their name carved out in cement on a Hollywood sidewalk is in someway permanent, or building a pyramid and being entombed is forever.
When in less than a blink of Gods eye in time, the earth will cease to exist, and no one will ever know a thing about us.
Yeah, the need for understanding of our place here and now is incumbent upon us as individuals, but if a group can get one the answer, then good on them.
Like you, once I gave up the idea that my life was in someway bigger than God, that I was an individual and nothing could influence me and realized that opinion was the ignorance of a child speaking, like that of a toddler thinking they were big enough to go it alone through life.
It's why I am always so puzzled by atheists and their need to think they are somehow better and can go through life without never making the connection, whether it's arrogance or fear, by not making the connection, they are only hurting themselves.
Like having an opinion on the flavor of watermelon yet never having tried it, and still having an opinion nonetheless.
Yeah, I guess to them, their opinion is valid, but to those of us that have actually tried it, they look like spoiled children afraid of the unknown.
Quote from: Skeptic on November 10, 2014, 03:14:58 PM
I recognize that having read a few research articles in scientific journals and a couple of science books does not make me an expert on evolution, and there are far more qualified people than I on the subject, but I know enough to know that the only people who call it a "cosmic accident" are creationist preachers.
I'll leave it at that, as I have no wish to engage in a debate between faith and observable scientific reality, nor is this really the place for it.
Solar, I'm glad you made it through your near death experiences. Sad about the others though, but that's life....short and unpredictable. People should remember more to enjoy it every day, because unlike sports, when life is done we don't get replays and re-matches.
I totally understand your apprehension to a higher power after reading this, and pretty much concur.
Quote from: Skeptic on November 12, 2014, 07:16:54 AM
1) I wasn't talking to you. I was answering another poster who wanted to know my answer to those questions.
2) I think I have a pretty good idea about Christianity. I was raised in a Catholic family, was baptized, and went to Catholic church for the first 10 years of my life, then was exposed to non-denominational Christianity when my parents became protestants. Finally, by age 16 I started going on my own to a southern Baptist church, was baptized, and continued to go every weekend to Church until age 24 when I finally realized I could no longer believe the things I was taught and I left the church. After that I was an agnostic, and now I lean more towards agnostic atheist. To each his own, but that was the path my life took.
I too followed somewhat of a similar path, though nowhere near the exposure you had through family pressure.
My choices were my own to seek understanding. And like you, simply couldn't accept their answers.
But because of the failures of religion, is no reason to completely discount a higher power.
Your story is repeated millions of time around the globe, where religion actually drives people to the point of militancy towards organized religion and a rejection of spirituality.
But don't let that dissuade you from your own spiritual side and your connection to the here and now, because the two are inseparable, like an apple and it's core, the two cannot exist without one another.
In other words, don't lose contact with your center.
Quote from: Solar on November 12, 2014, 08:29:40 AM
I totally understand your apprehension to a higher power after reading this, and pretty much concur.
I too followed somewhat of a similar path, though nowhere near the exposure you had through family pressure.
My choices were my own to seek understanding. And like you, simply couldn't accept their answers.
But because of the failures of religion, is no reason to completely discount a higher power.
Your story is repeated millions of time around the globe, where religion actually drives people to the point of militancy towards organized religion and a rejection of spirituality.
But don't let that dissuade you from your own spiritual side and your connection to the here and now, because the two are inseparable, like an apple and it's core, the two cannot exist without one another.
In other words, don't lose contact with your center.
It's an easy and common mistake to equate religion and the concept of, and belief in, a higher power. The two are completely separate, except that religion usually tries to latch onto some higher power for the sake of legitimacy and primacy.
All religions, regardless of their aims, their structures, or their precepts, are constructs of mankind. That's why there are, for example, so many different flavors of Christianity. That's why there are Sunni Muslims, Shi'ite Muslims, and many other variations beyond those. According to Adherents.com (http://www.adherents.com/), there are more than 4,200 religions in the world.
I've always said that the church I like best is the woods, where only a fool thinks it's quiet. It's where I've always felt closest to my own spirit. The magnificent integration of the forest world -- living things on so many levels in coexistence -- takes my breath. For me, it is clear and accessible evidence of the existence of what I call God.
Quote from: TboneAgain on November 12, 2014, 08:49:12 AM
It's an easy and common mistake to equate religion and the concept of, and belief in, a higher power. The two are completely separate, except that religion usually tries to latch onto some higher power for the sake of legitimacy and primacy.
All religions, regardless of their aims, their structures, or their precepts, are constructs of mankind. That's why there are, for example, so many different flavors of Christianity. That's why there are Sunni Muslims, Shi'ite Muslims, and many other variations beyond those. According to Adherents.com (http://www.adherents.com/), there are more than 4,200 religions in the world.
I've always said that the church I like best is the woods, where only a fool thinks it's quiet. It's where I've always felt closest to my own spirit. The magnificent integration of the forest world -- living things on so many levels in coexistence -- takes my breath. For me, it is clear and accessible evidence of the existence of what I call God.
Well said, and I couldn't agree more. Pretty much the key reason I moved to the wilderness in the first place, to make a more spiritual connection to God.
And yes, I found it.
Quote from: Solar on November 12, 2014, 09:53:05 AM
Well said, and I couldn't agree more. Pretty much the key reason I moved to the wilderness in the first place, to make a more spiritual connection to God.
And yes, I found it.
I think you found Toy, and she put the fear of God in you! :tounge:
Quote from: TboneAgain on November 12, 2014, 10:45:02 AM
I think you found Toy, and she put the fear of God in you! :tounge:
God does works in mysterious ways so they say. :lol:
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 07, 2014, 08:27:47 PM
As an Atheist, I've had some spirited debates with members here about religion and faith. While I always tried to do so civilly, in the heat of the discussion, I may have said somethings that were unkind, and hurtful. If I did so, or anyone took my posts that way, I apologize.
Also...
I have cast aside my non-belief, and while I don't consider myself a traditional Christian, I do believe in a high power that is capable of interacting with us mere mortals. It's a new journey for me, and I'm not sure where I am being led, but, as in the past, I only seek the Truth.
Darth
You know, I am new here and I keep reading this post and walking away from it. I keep thinking to myself that I need to get a feel for the board before I start posting about religion. I finally realized, if we can discuss politics then religion isn't going to be any different.
Let me see if I understand you. You have had times where you slam dunked Christians (I'm not certain to what degree, I guess that is my hang up here) for merely being Christian but now you want to make nice because you have decided to "set aside" your lack of belief in trade for beliefs.
Is that pretty much it?
Now, I have another question. How does one "set aside" a lack of belief? Believing or not believing in religion, higher power, God(s), it's not really like turning on and off a light switch. I mean... either you do or you don't. It's not like one day you just decide... I think I'll believe in a God. I suppose it is true that many... MANY people are ignorant of atheism and I believe you are one of them. Many theists believe atheists are "mad" at God thus, they become atheist. Not so. It's very difficult to be angry with something that does not exist for them. At the same token many atheists believe faith is fully a choice. It's not, when it is ingrained into your brain from birth it's not so easy to say you were wrong all those years. All in all there is a ton of ignorance on both sides.
Quote from: taxed on November 07, 2014, 08:52:46 PM
I always ask them if they think we're the only beings in the universe to evolve from monkeys.
Actually... those that really do understand evolution do not believe we evolved from monkeys. A good book on the topic would go a long way when discussing this issue. :sneaky:
Quote from: TboneAgain on November 07, 2014, 08:59:55 PM
Good point.
It occurs to me to wonder who came up with monkeys in the first place.
??? Those that do not understand evolution? :tounge:
Quote from: Solar on November 09, 2014, 05:12:59 PM
Psssst...There's only one.
Did you have a father, did your father have a father, and his father and so on? Well, that's life, and everything had a beginning and a father, if you will.
Whether or not the father is present in our lives or not, is irrelevant, the fact that we're here, validates his existence.
FWIW, I'm not religious in any sense of the word.
Nahhh... there are a ton of Gods out there. Matter of fact,there is a God for each theist looking in a mirror every morning. Their God is the *only* God, there is only one God and it is their God. Their God just happens to have a similar take on the bible as the person looking in the mirror. Or, in the case of someone such as a Hindu - Gods. But it all comes down to one simple fact. There is no proof of any of these Gods. Not one of them. If there was, theists wouldn't need faith. They'd have facts instead. What one believes is not a fact, what one can prove is a fact.
There isn't a thing in the world wrong with faith in a God. Nothing, nada, zilch. It's mighty A-ok with me if someone wants to believe in a God. Just don't call it fact because it "feels" so real or better yet, because one can't admit they just plain don't know the answer to a question.
People used to believe Ra the Sun God pulled the sun around the earth in his chariot each day. Then science came along and explained how it works and suddenly, a God didn't do THAT but he does everything else. :laugh: And the list goes on what a God did until science explained how it really works.
There are some questions I just don't know the answer. I have no problem saying.. I dunno. But I can't create a God to answer everything I don't know.
Quote from: Michelle on November 13, 2014, 09:07:32 AM
Nahhh... there are a ton of Gods out there. Matter of fact,there is a God for each theist looking in a mirror every morning. Their God is the *only* God, there is only one God and it is their God. Their God just happens to have a similar take on the bible as the person looking in the mirror. Or, in the case of someone such as a Hindu - Gods. But it all comes down to one simple fact. There is no proof of any of these Gods. Not one of them. If there was, theists wouldn't need faith. They'd have facts instead. What one believes is not a fact, what one can prove is a fact.
There isn't a thing in the world wrong with faith in a God. Nothing, nada, zilch. It's mighty A-ok with me if someone wants to believe in a God. Just don't call it fact because it "feels" so real or better yet, because one can't admit they just plain don't know the answer to a question.
People used to believe Ra the Sun God pulled the sun around the earth in his chariot each day. Then science came along and explained how it works and suddenly, a God didn't do THAT but he does everything else. :laugh: And the list goes on what a God did until science explained how it really works.
There are some questions I just don't know the answer. I have no problem saying.. I dunno. But I can't create a God to answer everything I don't know.
The term God is merely a metaphor for a power bigger than life.
What or how one sees God is a personal thing, whether as a super man, or an unexplained force is irrelevant, what's important is that for the believer, it can be a source for answers to life one has no control over.
For my take on God, read #28 and #31.
It's a fact I would not be as happy and content had it not been for God.
Quote from: Solar on November 13, 2014, 11:00:19 AM
The term God is merely a metaphor for a power bigger than life.
What or how one sees God is a personal thing, whether as a super man, or an unexplained force is irrelevant, what's important is that for the believer, it can be a source for answers to life one has no control over.
For my take on God, read #28 and #31.
It's a fact I would not be as happy and content had it not been for God.
I am glad that my Dad was Christian because for him it was a huge source of comfort when he was dying. It was his strength and for him I was content that he had that comfort.
One issue I will never forgive... one of my sisters told my Dad I was atheist. She told him on his death bed. He didn't need that worry. If I would have wanted him to know *I* would have told him. That just wasn't the time or place for the final one upsmanship. I just never felt there was value in his worrying or fretting over it so I never told him. It's just such a non issue for me.
But, the point is that his faith gave him a great deal of peace in the end. That's a good thing.
Quote from: Skeptic on November 09, 2014, 10:11:49 AM
I have had Jehovah Witnesses knock on my door 5 times this year and try to waste my time with their pamphlets and with readings from their bible. The last time I finally got so fed up that I told the guy trying to hand me a pamphlet to wait while I go get a copy of the Satanic Bible to hand to him so we can exchange ideas and I can talk to him about the wonders Satan can do for him. I've never seen anyone run away so fast. Naturally I don't really have any satanic literature since I believe that's also science fiction, but I thought I'd be worth the the try to see if I could finally scare them into leaving me alone. It has worked so far. They haven't knocked on my door for the last 2 months. :thumbup:
You're kidding?
I've lived in the heart of Utah for the past 15 or so years and in all of that time, I've only had an LDS missionary ask to talk to me once!
Darth
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 15, 2014, 03:57:05 PM
You're kidding?
I've lived in the heart of Utah for the past 15 or so years and in all of that time, I've only had an LDS missionary ask to talk to me once!
Darth
Shoot, I get them in MEXICO! I thought I had it all figured out, I told them I speak no Spanish at all. No problem, the next day they sent an English speaking Missionary over.
I don't answer anymore.
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 15, 2014, 03:57:05 PM
You're kidding?
I've lived in the heart of Utah for the past 15 or so years and in all of that time, I've only had an LDS missionary ask to talk to me once!
Darth
For such evil religious zealots,(according to libs), :rolleyes:
LDS missionaries are the only ones I'd let in my house.
I may not agree with their religion in anyway, but of all the Mormons I've known, not one of them ever did me wrong in anyway, and were always willing to help out.
Quote from: Solar on November 15, 2014, 04:23:09 PM
For such evil religious zealots,(according to libs), :rolleyes:
LDS missionaries are the only ones I'd let in my house.
I may not agree with their religion in anyway, but of all the Mormons I've known, not one of them ever did me wrong in anyway, and were always willing to help out.
They're one of those religions where if you need some help or shit done, they will help. I watched one documentary where they helped a town hit by a tornado just start building back up. It was amazing.
Quote from: Solar on November 15, 2014, 04:23:09 PM
For such evil religious zealots,(according to libs), :rolleyes:
LDS missionaries are the only ones I'd let in my house.
I may not agree with their religion in anyway, but of all the Mormons I've known, not one of them ever did me wrong in anyway, and were always willing to help out.
Hmmm... who has referred to them as "evil," Solar? Or are you making up stuff again?
I don't let them in my house because #1) I don't have time for them and #2) I don't make it a practice of inviting people in my home who I do not know.
I have a hunch you don't either.
Quote from: Michelle on November 15, 2014, 04:34:37 PM
Hmmm... who has referred to them as "evil," Solar? Or are you making up stuff again?
I don't let them in my house because #1) I don't have time for them and #2) I don't make it a practice of inviting people in my home who I do not know.
I have a hunch you don't either.
Are you OK?
Quote from: Michelle on November 15, 2014, 04:34:37 PM
Hmmm... who has referred to them as "evil," Solar? Or are you making up stuff again?
I make an innocuous statement about libs, and you magically bite?
As I suspected, though I understand being angry after voting for Obola, and being lied to by the Marxists, I'd be a bit touchy as well. :biggrin:
"For such evil religious zealots,(according to libs)"
QuoteI don't let them in my house because #1) I don't have time for them and #2) I don't make it a practice of inviting people in my home who I do not know.
I have a hunch you don't either.
And you'd be wrong, we talked for a bit, gave them a snack, they helped me do some genealogy on the family tree, because they have an excellent database they've put together.
Had a great time, and I invited them back anytime, but they declined, said they had a busy schedule.
6But you'd never realize such a thing, being an open minded individual, and all. :rolleyes:
Quote from: taxed on November 15, 2014, 04:48:52 PM
Are you OK?
If you were a lib right now, would you be? :lol:
Quote from: Solar on November 16, 2014, 04:31:26 PM
If you were a lib right now, would you be? :lol:
I'd be in heaven right now! Literally.
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 07, 2014, 08:27:47 PM
As an Atheist, I've had some spirited debates with members here about religion and faith. While I always tried to do so civilly, in the heat of the discussion, I may have said somethings that were unkind, and hurtful. If I did so, or anyone took my posts that way, I apologize.
Also...
I have cast aside my non-belief, and while I don't consider myself a traditional Christian, I do believe in a high power that is capable of interacting with us mere mortals. It's a new journey for me, and I'm not sure where I am being led, but, as in the past, I only seek the Truth.
Darth
So Darth, what happened that you came to reconsider?
Quote from: Solar on November 09, 2014, 03:49:29 PM
I find it odd, that someone can have faith in nothing at all. :biggrin:
Reminds me of Obama voters.
Quote from: Skeptic on November 09, 2014, 10:11:49 AM
I have had Jehovah Witnesses knock on my door 5 times this year and try to waste my time with their pamphlets and with readings from their bible. The last time I finally got so fed up that I told the guy trying to hand me a pamphlet to wait while I go get a copy of the Satanic Bible to hand to him so we can exchange ideas and I can talk to him about the wonders Satan can do for him. I've never seen anyone run away so fast. Naturally I don't really have any satanic literature since I believe that's also science fiction, but I thought I'd be worth the the try to see if I could finally scare them into leaving me alone. It has worked so far. They haven't knocked on my door for the last 2 months. :thumbup:
You must live somewhat near a Kingdom Hall. Witnesses are supposed to visit every home in their Kingdom Hall's territory at least once a year. Five times with nearly two months left in the year may mean that your home is near a Kingdom Hall, making your neighborhood a sort of training ground for new witnesses. They do keep records of calls and results, so your Satanic Bible routine probably got your house designated, "Don't visit." I believe they also use public records to keep track of home sales, so they'll know when it's "safe" to visit your home again.
I'm not a witness, nor a former witness, I just know somewhat of how they go about their business.
One of my best friends is a Jehovah Witness, and I learned a few things about them:
1 - They REALLY study the Bible.
2 - There are a lot more of them than one would think.
3 - They are really good at keeping things within their network. Any time I needed a good contractor for anything out of my realm, I'd just tell my friend, and he'd say "Oh, I got a guy... He'll call you in 10".
Quote from: taxed on November 17, 2014, 12:22:28 PM
One of my best friends is a Jehovah Witness, and I learned a few things about them:
1 - They REALLY study the Bible.
2 - There are a lot more of them than one would think.
3 - They are really good at keeping things within their network. Any time I needed a good contractor for anything out of my realm, I'd just tell my friend, and he'd say "Oh, I got a guy... He'll call you in 10".
They are an interesting bunch. And yes, they
do know their Bible! I guess that is an occupational hazard when one sets oneself up in direct opposition to mainstream Christianity.
They are also "non-trinitarian" - they don't believe in The Trinty. Nor do they believe in Hell as a place of eternal torment. Of course, they do, or
did, believe that the world was going to end in 1914...
Darth
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 07, 2014, 08:27:47 PM
As an Atheist, I've had some spirited debates with members here about religion and faith. While I always tried to do so civilly, in the heat of the discussion, I may have said somethings that were unkind, and hurtful. If I did so, or anyone took my posts that way, I apologize.
Also...
I have cast aside my non-belief, and while I don't consider myself a traditional Christian, I do believe in a high power that is capable of interacting with us mere mortals. It's a new journey for me, and I'm not sure where I am being led, but, as in the past, I only seek the Truth.
Darth
My only advice to you is don't take the Mark.
(https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.chzbgr.com%2FmaxW500%2F6462948608%2FhAF1EDA6E%2F&f=1)
Quote from: taxed on November 17, 2014, 12:22:28 PM
One of my best friends is a Jehovah Witness, and I learned a few things about them:
1 - They REALLY study the Bible.
2 - There are a lot more of them than one would think.
3 - They are really good at keeping things within their network. Any time I needed a good contractor for anything out of my realm, I'd just tell my friend, and he'd say "Oh, I got a guy... He'll call you in 10".
1 - I think it would be more accurate to say that they study what the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society tells them the Bible teaches, with the "proof texts" the WTB&TS provides. The result often is unrelated texts being taken out of context and linked in a sort of
Bible Hopscotch. But even with that quibble, experienced witnesses do know more of the Bible than many who call themselves Christians.
2 - The numbers have some ambiguity that is peculiar to how the WTB&TS counts members. The WTB&TS publishes an annual report ("Yearbook") of witnesses activities. The
2014 Yearbook states that there are ~1.2M witnesses in the US, and ~8M worldwide. Those numbers represent the number of witnesses who
report hours spent going door-to-door (my source for these stats is Wikipedia's article on "Jehovah's Witnesses Demographics"). IOW, the WTB&TS numbers understate the number of people who adhere to their beliefs. Disabled witnesses may not be counted. New, active, witnesses who don't yet report door-to-door hours are not included. People who are new and accept WT teachings, but aren't going door-to-door are not counted.
By way of comparison, the denomination to which BHO and his family belong, the United Church of Christ reported ~980K members in 2013. How the UCC defines "member" for the purposes of this stat was not mentioned by Wikipedia. The Episcopal Church in the US reported ~2M baptized members in 2013, ~870K being in the US, with ~660K average Sunday attendance.
3 - Witnesses are very tight-knit, quite understandable, given how many/most in society view them. Their door-to-door (and similar) work and their internal training program foster building interpersonal relationships. I don't know if witnesses have been forced in some areas to alter this, but their normal practice regarding Kingdom Halls was to use the appropriately sized standard building plan provided by the WTB&TS and build it entirely with volunteer labor. The result is a Kingdom Hall with no debt. In large cities, where land is occupied and expensive, Kingdom Halls are often shared by 2 or more congregations whose meeting schedules are coordinated so as not to conflict.
There are some downsides to this insularity. Like the Catholic Church (not criticizing, just observing), witnesses are quite sensitive to public perception of their integrity and morality. That isn't intrinsically bad. But it sometimes has the effect of domestic and sexual abuse being handled internally, and sometimes not well. When the abusers are congregational leaders who cover up for each other even within the congregation it can get very ugly. I'm not implying this is common, just stating that it does happen, and the witnesses' circle-the-wagons approach, besides keeping messes out of the public eye also sometimes prolongs and fosters abusive situations.
Another consequence of witnesses' insularity is that relationships with outside people are few (and with non-witness family members, often distant or strained). When some one leaves Jehovah's witnesses - whether disfellowshipped or less formally - they leave pretty much their whole social circle. This is particularly true of those who are disfellowshipped, as witnesses are taught that they must avoid or minimize contact with such persons. A former witness is thus stuck between their former social circle who are avoiding them and non-witnesses with whom they had few, and sometimes strained, relations.
For anyone who is curious, my
Shift key and
W key work OK with each other. They may have changed in the past decade or two, but witnesses normally referred to themselves as
Jehovah's witnesses, not
Jehovah's Witnesses or
Jehovah Witnesses. They viewed
Jehovah's witnesses as descriptive of what they are/do rather than as a denominational name.
Quote from: SVPete on November 23, 2014, 06:58:10 AM
1 - I think it would be more accurate to say that they study what the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society tells them the Bible teaches, with the "proof texts" the WTB&TS provides. The result often is unrelated texts being taken out of context and linked in a sort of Bible Hopscotch. But even with that quibble, experienced witnesses do know more of the Bible than many who call themselves Christians.
2 - The numbers have some ambiguity that is peculiar to how the WTB&TS counts members. The WTB&TS publishes an annual report ("Yearbook") of witnesses activities. The 2014 Yearbook states that there are ~1.2M witnesses in the US, and ~8M worldwide. Those numbers represent the number of witnesses who report hours spent going door-to-door (my source for these stats is Wikipedia's article on "Jehovah's Witnesses Demographics"). IOW, the WTB&TS numbers understate the number of people who adhere to their beliefs. Disabled witnesses may not be counted. New, active, witnesses who don't yet report door-to-door hours are not included. People who are new and accept WT teachings, but aren't going door-to-door are not counted.
By way of comparison, the denomination to which BHO and his family belong, the United Church of Christ reported ~980K members in 2013. How the UCC defines "member" for the purposes of this stat was not mentioned by Wikipedia. The Episcopal Church in the US reported ~2M baptized members in 2013, ~870K being in the US, with ~660K average Sunday attendance.
3 - Witnesses are very tight-knit, quite understandable, given how many/most in society view them. Their door-to-door (and similar) work and their internal training program foster building interpersonal relationships. I don't know if witnesses have been forced in some areas to alter this, but their normal practice regarding Kingdom Halls was to use the appropriately sized standard building plan provided by the WTB&TS and build it entirely with volunteer labor. The result is a Kingdom Hall with no debt. In large cities, where land is occupied and expensive, Kingdom Halls are often shared by 2 or more congregations whose meeting schedules are coordinated so as not to conflict.
There are some downsides to this insularity. Like the Catholic Church (not criticizing, just observing), witnesses are quite sensitive to public perception of their integrity and morality. That isn't intrinsically bad. But it sometimes has the effect of domestic and sexual abuse being handled internally, and sometimes not well. When the abusers are congregational leaders who cover up for each other even within the congregation it can get very ugly. I'm not implying this is common, just stating that it does happen, and the witnesses' circle-the-wagons approach, besides keeping messes out of the public eye also sometimes prolongs and fosters abusive situations.
Another consequence of witnesses' insularity is that relationships with outside people are few (and with non-witness family members, often distant or strained). When some one leaves Jehovah's witnesses - whether disfellowshipped or less formally - they leave pretty much their whole social circle. This is particularly true of those who are disfellowshipped, as witnesses are taught that they must avoid or minimize contact with such persons. A former witness is thus stuck between their former social circle who are avoiding them and non-witnesses with whom they had few, and sometimes strained, relations.
For anyone who is curious, my Shift key and W key work OK with each other. They may have changed in the past decade or two, but witnesses normally referred to themselves as Jehovah's witnesses, not Jehovah's Witnesses or Jehovah Witnesses. They viewed Jehovah's witnesses as descriptive of what they are/do rather than as a denominational name.
Good points!
One thing is for sure, there are assholes everywhere. I had a good friend for 14 years who called me last year and told me he wanted nothing more to do with me because I voted FRP and that his new Jehova Witness "Church/Group" had made him join the Labour Party and told him to renounce all his non-liberal friends (He never had any political interest at all before). He was taken in the Jehova Witnesses by getting into a romantic relationship with a woman who was in the group, and he now donates most of his income to this group.
Before he joined the Jehova Witness he was a member of a cult that worshipped a japanese singer or something, he followed that group around for a time, so maybe it's an upgrade, oh well I should not judge. Still he was a good friend, and this clouds my opinion of them.
Quote from: Mountainshield on November 28, 2014, 06:04:16 AM
One thing is for sure, there are assholes everywhere. I had a good friend for 14 years who called me last year and told me he wanted nothing more to do with me because I voted FRP and that his new Jehova Witness "Church/Group" had made him join the Labour Party and told him to renounce all his non-liberal friends (He never had any political interest at all before). He was taken in the Jehova Witnesses by getting into a romantic relationship with a woman who was in the group, and he now donates most of his income to this group.
Before he joined the Jehova Witness he was a member of a cult that worshipped a japanese singer or something, he followed that group around for a time, so maybe it's an upgrade, oh well I should not judge. Still he was a good friend, and this clouds my opinion of them.
There's just no understanding the emotional instability of the mind of a liberal.
I had a friend I knew and grew up next door to since 1958, solid friends till around 1995, when he called and said he doesn't need friends anymore.
Two factors involved, he joined the union while spewing vitriol about Reagan and apparently inherited his mothers mental instability (bipolar).
Nearly 20 years later, I get a call from him last month at two in the morning acting as if nothing ever happened.
I hung up, screw the lib!
Friends don't act like libs.
Quote from: Mountainshield on November 28, 2014, 06:04:16 AM
One thing is for sure, there are assholes everywhere. I had a good friend for 14 years who called me last year and told me he wanted nothing more to do with me because I voted FRP and that his new Jehova Witness "Church/Group" had made him join the Labour Party and told him to renounce all his non-liberal friends (He never had any political interest at all before). He was taken in the Jehova Witnesses by getting into a romantic relationship with a woman who was in the group, and he now donates most of his income to this group.
Before he joined the Jehova Witness he was a member of a cult that worshipped a japanese singer or something, he followed that group around for a time, so maybe it's an upgrade, oh well I should not judge. Still he was a good friend, and this clouds my opinion of them.
Not in the least questioning your experience, but my first mental reaction was the witnesses don't normally vote. At all.
Turns out (http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/quotes/voting.php) that has changed somewhat since 1999. Witnesses are allowed to vote - or not - as they believe appropriate. Many still do not. That this group your former friend is in is pressuring members to be and act partisanly is contrary to WT teaching. But if they are in control of their congregation it isn't likely to get back to Brooklyn. Sounds like some union or party operatives came into power in that congregation and are misusing that power.
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 07, 2014, 08:27:47 PM
As an Atheist, I've had some spirited debates with members here about religion and faith. While I always tried to do so civilly, in the heat of the discussion, I may have said somethings that were unkind, and hurtful. If I did so, or anyone took my posts that way, I apologize.
Also...
I have cast aside my non-belief, and while I don't consider myself a traditional Christian, I do believe in a high power that is capable of interacting with us mere mortals. It's a new journey for me, and I'm not sure where I am being led, but, as in the past, I only seek the Truth.
Darth
It's all cool dude. I don't consider myself a traditional Christian either. I don't even go to church. Our churches have been polluted with false teachings. I'm sure it's hard to tell who is right and who is wrong by today's standards. Just remember this as a believer in a "higher power". Satan,and the forces of evil ,are a higher power. A higher power in and of it's self is still not God.
Quote from: Rasputttin on December 05, 2014, 10:51:16 PM
It's all cool dude. I don't consider myself a traditional Christian either. I don't even go to church. Our churches have been polluted with false teachings. I'm sure it's hard to tell who is right and who is wrong by today's standards. Just remember this as a believer in a "higher power". Satan,and the forces of evil ,are a higher power. A higher power in and of it's self is still not God.
Satan's sole existence is dependent upon man keeping him alive.
In my world, he does not exist, only varying degrees of good. It's all a matter of perspective.
Quote from: Solar on December 06, 2014, 05:15:03 AM
Satan's sole existence is dependent upon man keeping him alive.
In my world, he does not exist, only varying degrees of good. It's all a matter of perspective.
Good luck with that.
Quote from: Rasputttin on December 06, 2014, 11:06:22 AM
Good luck with that.
I can't see it any other way, considering God blessed me with a wonderful life, where I was able to retire in my early 40s.
Does Satan exist? Only in the hearts of those willing to succumb the temptations he offers.
I didn't, and therefore, he does not exist in my life.
Quote from: Solar on December 06, 2014, 11:50:47 AM
I can't see it any other way, considering God blessed me with a wonderful life, where I was able to retire in my early 40s.
Does Satan exist? Only in the hearts of those willing to succumb the temptations he offers.
I didn't, and therefore, he does not exist in my life.
I understand that we are not going to see eye to eye on this and that's OK. I don't expect everyone to believe as I believe. I also understand that your perception is more common than mine. I just wish you would open your mind to an understanding that sees a flaw in your thinking. You and I probably agree on 90% of the things going on in this world. That other 10% however is not incidental. There is a philosophy in biblical teaching. Even if you don't believe in the biblical story of God and Satan, Good and evil. Heaven and hell. There is still a philosophy inbedded within the story that is worth acknowledging.
From my point of view it would be better to claim no belief in a higher power than to claim a belief while rejecting power. What is the quote that was used in the move "The Usual Suspects". The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he doesn't exist.
Quote from: Rasputttin on December 06, 2014, 12:32:47 PM
I understand that we are not going to see eye to eye on this and that's OK. I don't expect everyone to believe as I believe. I also understand that your perception is more common than mine. I just wish you would open your mind to an understanding that sees a flaw in your thinking. You and I probably agree on 90% of the things going on in this world. That other 10% however is not incidental. There is a philosophy in biblical teaching. Even if you don't believe in the biblical story of God and Satan, Good and evil. Heaven and hell. There is still a philosophy inbedded within the story that is worth acknowledging.
From my point of view it would be better to claim no belief in a higher power than to claim a belief while rejecting power. What is the quote that was used in the move "The Usual Suspects". The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he doesn't exist.
I suspected what I said would be taken literal, which is a mistake, I'm a much deeper thinker than most give me credit for, simply because I don't post all that often in Religion. (but search throughout Religion, you'll see that I have a very real grasp of my purpose on this planet)
What I meant by Satan doesn't exist in my world, is that I refuse to acknowledge him.
Truth is, without evil, one would never experience good, for without evil, one has no ruler with which to measure good.
Does that clear it up?
Quote from: Rasputttin on December 06, 2014, 12:32:47 PM
I understand that we are not going to see eye to eye on this and that's OK. I don't expect everyone to believe as I believe. I also understand that your perception is more common than mine. I just wish you would open your mind to an understanding that sees a flaw in your thinking. You and I probably agree on 90% of the things going on in this world. That other 10% however is not incidental. There is a philosophy in biblical teaching. Even if you don't believe in the biblical story of God and Satan, Good and evil. Heaven and hell. There is still a philosophy inbedded within the story that is worth acknowledging.
From my point of view it would be better to claim no belief in a higher power than to claim a belief while rejecting power. What is the quote that was used in the move "The Usual Suspects". The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he doesn't exist.
I thought his greatest trick was convincing the world that anthropogenic global warming
does exist. Oh, wait. That was the Democrats. Honest mistake. :tounge:
Quote from: TboneAgain on December 06, 2014, 02:12:44 PM
I thought his greatest trick was convincing the world that anthropogenic global warming does exist. Oh, wait. That was the Democrats. Honest mistake. :tounge:
Proof the Devil does exist. :biggrin:
Quote from: Solar on December 06, 2014, 02:00:12 PM
I suspected what I said would be taken literal, which is a mistake, I'm a much deeper thinker than most give me credit for, simply because I don't post all that often in Religion. (but search throughout Religion, you'll see that I have a very real grasp of my purpose on this planet)
What I meant by Satan doesn't exist in my world, is that I refuse to acknowledge him.
Truth is, without evil, one would never experience good, for without evil, one has no ruler with which to measure good.
Does that clear it up?
Not really. If I am a predator invading your home. You can choose to believe that I am really not really there. But that doesn't change the fact that I am there and prepared to do unspeakable things.
I am not saying that I am a predator. Just making a point using myself as an example.
Quote from: Rasputttin on December 06, 2014, 02:39:45 PM
Not really. If I am a predator invading your home. You can choose to believe that I am really not really there. But that doesn't change the fact that I am there and prepared to do unspeakable things.
I am not saying that I am a predator. Just making a point using myself as an example.
Which is why I said I've led a blessed life. I've taken more thugs off the street than most cops have during their entire career, saved more lives included, even stopped multiple holdups.
How you ask? God put where where he wanted me at the moment.
If you really knew me, you'd know just how ludicrous your scenario was.
Quote from: Solar on December 06, 2014, 06:03:30 PM
Which is why I said I've led a blessed life. I've taken more thugs off the street than most cops have during their entire career, saved more lives included, even stopped multiple holdups.
How you ask? God put where where he wanted me at the moment.
If you really knew me, you'd know just how ludicrous your scenario was.
There was nothing ludicrous about my statement. If you have done as you said then I applaud you. My main message is that we as individuals need to be better. You obviously have served your role. I don't understand why we are arguing. The best I can tell is that you have a problem with me seeing religion in everything Why am I not allowed to speak my opinion just because my opinion is religion based?
Quote from: Rasputttin on December 06, 2014, 08:21:01 PM
There was nothing ludicrous about my statement. If you have done as you said then I applaud you. My main message is that we as individuals need to be better. You obviously have served your role. I don't understand why we are arguing. The best I can tell is that you have a problem with me seeing religion in everything Why am I not allowed to speak my opinion just because my opinion is religion based?
BINGO!!!!! We have a winner!
Because religion sucks, plain and simple! I am a man of faith, I don't need a middle man to talk to God, nor a voluminous House for worship that requires a portion of my income for support.
All I need is a moment to talk to God, something I do on a regular basis. In talking to God, one quickly learns that everything they've been taught by "organized" religion was wrong, not because they wanted to lie to people, but there was a need to create a flock mentality amongst the worshipers.
Just like your nonsense about "Image". Do you honestly think God gave a damn about appearance? How shallow and vain do you think God really is?
The more you post, the more ignorance I see from someone just starting to break the bonds of organized religion and discovering the truth for their self..
I'm ahead of you by about 50 years, so you'll have to forgive my impertinence, I have little patience for people unwilling to listen to those that have gone before them.
In other words, the crap you're spewing, is akin to a toddler mastering running, and critiquing the rest of us that have been walking on our own for the last 50+ years.
Quote from: Solar on December 07, 2014, 05:19:45 AM
BINGO!!!!! We have a winner!
Because religion sucks, plain and simple! I am a man of faith, I don't need a middle man to talk to God, nor a voluminous House for worship that requires a portion of my income for support.
All I need is a moment to talk to God, something I do on a regular basis. In talking to God, one quickly learns that everything they've been taught by "organized" religion was wrong, not because they wanted to lie to people, but there was a need to create a flock mentality amongst the worshipers.
Just like your nonsense about "Image". Do you honestly think God gave a damn about appearance? How shallow and vain do you think God really is?
The more you post, the more ignorance I see from someone just starting to break the bonds of organized religion and discovering the truth for their self..
I'm ahead of you by about 50 years, so you'll have to forgive my impertinence, I have little patience for people unwilling to listen to those that have gone before them.
In other words, the crap you're spewing, is akin to a toddler mastering running, and critiquing the rest of us that have been walking on our own for the last 50+ years.
I'm pretty sure God doesn't care what we call Him... as long as we do call Him!
:wink:
Darth