An Apology to Any and All

[Darth Fife]

One of my best friends is a Jehovah Witness, and I learned a few things about them:

1 - They REALLY study the Bible.
2 - There are a lot more of them than one would think.
3 - They are really good at keeping things within their network.  Any time I needed a good contractor for anything out of my realm, I'd just tell my friend, and he'd say "Oh, I got a guy... He'll call you in 10".

They are an interesting bunch. And yes, they do know their Bible! I guess that is an occupational hazard when one sets oneself up in direct opposition to mainstream Christianity.

They are also "non-trinitarian" - they don't believe in The Trinty. Nor do they believe in Hell as a place of eternal torment. Of course, they do, or did,  believe that the world was going to end in 1914...

Darth

[ShelbyGT500]

As an Atheist, I've had some spirited debates with members here about religion and faith. While I always tried to do so civilly, in the heat of the discussion, I may have said somethings that were unkind, and hurtful. If I did so, or anyone took my posts that way, I apologize.

Also...

I have cast aside my non-belief, and while I don't consider myself a traditional Christian, I do believe in a high power that is capable of interacting with us mere mortals. It's a new journey for me, and I'm not sure where I am being led, but, as in the past, I only seek the Truth.

Darth

My only advice to you is don't take the Mark.

[Solar]

[SVPete]

One of my best friends is a Jehovah Witness, and I learned a few things about them:

1 - They REALLY study the Bible.
2 - There are a lot more of them than one would think.
3 - They are really good at keeping things within their network.  Any time I needed a good contractor for anything out of my realm, I'd just tell my friend, and he'd say "Oh, I got a guy... He'll call you in 10".

1 - I think it would be more accurate to say that they study what the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society tells them the Bible teaches, with the "proof texts" the WTB&TS provides. The result often is unrelated texts being taken out of context and linked in a sort of Bible Hopscotch. But even with that quibble, experienced witnesses do know more of the Bible than many who call themselves Christians.

2 - The numbers have some ambiguity that is peculiar to how the WTB&TS counts members. The WTB&TS publishes an annual report ("Yearbook") of witnesses activities. The 2014 Yearbook states that there are ~1.2M witnesses in the US, and ~8M worldwide. Those numbers represent the number of witnesses who report hours spent going door-to-door (my source for these stats is Wikipedia's article on "Jehovah's Witnesses Demographics"). IOW, the WTB&TS numbers understate the number of people who adhere to their beliefs. Disabled witnesses may not be counted. New, active, witnesses who don't yet report door-to-door hours are not included. People who are new and accept WT teachings, but aren't going door-to-door are not counted.

By way of comparison, the denomination to which BHO and his family belong, the United Church of Christ reported ~980K members in 2013. How the UCC defines "member" for the purposes of this stat was not mentioned by Wikipedia. The Episcopal Church in the US reported ~2M baptized members in 2013, ~870K being in the US, with ~660K average Sunday attendance.

3 - Witnesses are very tight-knit, quite understandable, given how many/most in society view them. Their door-to-door (and similar) work and their internal training program foster building interpersonal relationships. I don't know if witnesses have been forced in some areas to alter this, but their normal practice regarding Kingdom Halls was to use the appropriately sized standard building plan provided by the WTB&TS and build it entirely with volunteer labor. The result is a Kingdom Hall with no debt. In large cities, where land is occupied and expensive, Kingdom Halls are often shared by 2 or more congregations whose meeting schedules are coordinated so as not to conflict.

There are some downsides to this insularity. Like the Catholic Church (not criticizing, just observing), witnesses are quite sensitive to public perception of their integrity and morality. That isn't intrinsically bad. But it sometimes has the effect of domestic and sexual abuse being handled internally, and sometimes not well. When the abusers are congregational leaders who cover up for each other even within the congregation it can get very ugly. I'm not implying this is common, just stating that it does happen, and the witnesses' circle-the-wagons approach, besides keeping messes out of the public eye also sometimes prolongs and fosters abusive situations.

Another consequence of witnesses' insularity is that relationships with outside people are few (and with non-witness family members, often distant or strained). When some one leaves Jehovah's witnesses - whether disfellowshipped or less formally - they leave pretty much their whole social circle. This is particularly true of those who are disfellowshipped, as witnesses are taught that they must avoid or minimize contact with such persons. A former witness is thus stuck between their former social circle who are avoiding them and non-witnesses with whom they had few, and sometimes strained, relations.

For anyone who is curious, my Shift key and W key work OK with each other. They may have changed in the past decade or two, but witnesses normally referred to themselves as Jehovah's witnesses, not Jehovah's Witnesses or Jehovah Witnesses. They viewed Jehovah's witnesses as descriptive of what they are/do rather than as a denominational name.

[taxed]

1 - I think it would be more accurate to say that they study what the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society tells them the Bible teaches, with the "proof texts" the WTB&TS provides. The result often is unrelated texts being taken out of context and linked in a sort of Bible Hopscotch. But even with that quibble, experienced witnesses do know more of the Bible than many who call themselves Christians.

2 - The numbers have some ambiguity that is peculiar to how the WTB&TS counts members. The WTB&TS publishes an annual report ("Yearbook") of witnesses activities. The 2014 Yearbook states that there are ~1.2M witnesses in the US, and ~8M worldwide. Those numbers represent the number of witnesses who report hours spent going door-to-door (my source for these stats is Wikipedia's article on "Jehovah's Witnesses Demographics"). IOW, the WTB&TS numbers understate the number of people who adhere to their beliefs. Disabled witnesses may not be counted. New, active, witnesses who don't yet report door-to-door hours are not included. People who are new and accept WT teachings, but aren't going door-to-door are not counted.

By way of comparison, the denomination to which BHO and his family belong, the United Church of Christ reported ~980K members in 2013. How the UCC defines "member" for the purposes of this stat was not mentioned by Wikipedia. The Episcopal Church in the US reported ~2M baptized members in 2013, ~870K being in the US, with ~660K average Sunday attendance.

3 - Witnesses are very tight-knit, quite understandable, given how many/most in society view them. Their door-to-door (and similar) work and their internal training program foster building interpersonal relationships. I don't know if witnesses have been forced in some areas to alter this, but their normal practice regarding Kingdom Halls was to use the appropriately sized standard building plan provided by the WTB&TS and build it entirely with volunteer labor. The result is a Kingdom Hall with no debt. In large cities, where land is occupied and expensive, Kingdom Halls are often shared by 2 or more congregations whose meeting schedules are coordinated so as not to conflict.

There are some downsides to this insularity. Like the Catholic Church (not criticizing, just observing), witnesses are quite sensitive to public perception of their integrity and morality. That isn't intrinsically bad. But it sometimes has the effect of domestic and sexual abuse being handled internally, and sometimes not well. When the abusers are congregational leaders who cover up for each other even within the congregation it can get very ugly. I'm not implying this is common, just stating that it does happen, and the witnesses' circle-the-wagons approach, besides keeping messes out of the public eye also sometimes prolongs and fosters abusive situations.

Another consequence of witnesses' insularity is that relationships with outside people are few (and with non-witness family members, often distant or strained). When some one leaves Jehovah's witnesses - whether disfellowshipped or less formally - they leave pretty much their whole social circle. This is particularly true of those who are disfellowshipped, as witnesses are taught that they must avoid or minimize contact with such persons. A former witness is thus stuck between their former social circle who are avoiding them and non-witnesses with whom they had few, and sometimes strained, relations.

For anyone who is curious, my Shift key and W key work OK with each other. They may have changed in the past decade or two, but witnesses normally referred to themselves as Jehovah's witnesses, not Jehovah's Witnesses or Jehovah Witnesses. They viewed Jehovah's witnesses as descriptive of what they are/do rather than as a denominational name.

Good points!

[Mountainshield]

One thing is for sure, there are assholes everywhere. I had a good friend for 14 years who called me last year and told me he wanted nothing more to do with me because I voted FRP and that his new Jehova Witness "Church/Group" had made him join the Labour Party and told him to renounce all his non-liberal friends (He never had any political interest at all before). He was taken in the Jehova Witnesses by getting into a romantic relationship with a woman who was in the group, and he now donates most of his income to this group.

Before he joined the Jehova Witness he was a member of a cult that worshipped a japanese singer or something, he followed that group around for a time, so maybe it's an upgrade, oh well I should not judge. Still he was a good friend, and this clouds my opinion of them.

[Solar]

One thing is for sure, there are assholes everywhere. I had a good friend for 14 years who called me last year and told me he wanted nothing more to do with me because I voted FRP and that his new Jehova Witness "Church/Group" had made him join the Labour Party and told him to renounce all his non-liberal friends (He never had any political interest at all before). He was taken in the Jehova Witnesses by getting into a romantic relationship with a woman who was in the group, and he now donates most of his income to this group.

Before he joined the Jehova Witness he was a member of a cult that worshipped a japanese singer or something, he followed that group around for a time, so maybe it's an upgrade, oh well I should not judge. Still he was a good friend, and this clouds my opinion of them.

There's just no understanding the emotional instability of the mind of a liberal.
I had a friend I knew and grew up next door to since 1958, solid friends till around 1995, when he called and said he doesn't need friends anymore.
Two factors involved, he joined the union while spewing vitriol about Reagan and apparently inherited his mothers mental instability (bipolar).
Nearly 20 years later, I get a call from him last month at two in the morning acting as if nothing ever happened.
I hung up, screw the lib!
Friends don't act like libs.

[SVPete]

One thing is for sure, there are assholes everywhere. I had a good friend for 14 years who called me last year and told me he wanted nothing more to do with me because I voted FRP and that his new Jehova Witness "Church/Group" had made him join the Labour Party and told him to renounce all his non-liberal friends (He never had any political interest at all before). He was taken in the Jehova Witnesses by getting into a romantic relationship with a woman who was in the group, and he now donates most of his income to this group.

Before he joined the Jehova Witness he was a member of a cult that worshipped a japanese singer or something, he followed that group around for a time, so maybe it's an upgrade, oh well I should not judge. Still he was a good friend, and this clouds my opinion of them.

Not in the least questioning your experience, but my first mental reaction was the witnesses don't normally vote. At all. Turns out that has changed somewhat since 1999. Witnesses are allowed to vote - or not - as they believe appropriate. Many still do not. That this group your former friend is in is pressuring members to be and act partisanly is contrary to WT teaching. But if they are in control of their congregation it isn't likely to get back to Brooklyn. Sounds like some union or party operatives came into power in that congregation and are misusing that power.

[Rasputttin]

As an Atheist, I've had some spirited debates with members here about religion and faith. While I always tried to do so civilly, in the heat of the discussion, I may have said somethings that were unkind, and hurtful. If I did so, or anyone took my posts that way, I apologize.

Also...

I have cast aside my non-belief, and while I don't consider myself a traditional Christian, I do believe in a high power that is capable of interacting with us mere mortals. It's a new journey for me, and I'm not sure where I am being led, but, as in the past, I only seek the Truth.

Darth

It's all cool dude. I don't consider myself a traditional Christian either. I don't even go to church. Our churches have been polluted with false teachings. I'm sure it's hard to tell who is right and who is wrong by today's standards. Just remember this as a believer in a "higher power". Satan,and the forces of evil ,are a higher power. A higher power in and of it's self is still not God.

[Solar]

It's all cool dude. I don't consider myself a traditional Christian either. I don't even go to church. Our churches have been polluted with false teachings. I'm sure it's hard to tell who is right and who is wrong by today's standards. Just remember this as a believer in a "higher power". Satan,and the forces of evil ,are a higher power. A higher power in and of it's self is still not God.

Satan's sole existence is dependent upon man keeping him alive.
In my world, he does not exist, only varying degrees of good. It's all a matter of perspective.

[Rasputttin]

Satan's sole existence is dependent upon man keeping him alive.
In my world, he does not exist, only varying degrees of good. It's all a matter of perspective.

Good luck with that.

[Solar]

Good luck with that.

I can't see it any other way, considering God blessed me with a wonderful life, where I was able to retire in my early 40s.
Does Satan exist? Only in the hearts of those willing to succumb the temptations he offers.
I didn't, and therefore, he does not exist in my life.

[Rasputttin]

I can't see it any other way, considering God blessed me with a wonderful life, where I was able to retire in my early 40s.
Does Satan exist? Only in the hearts of those willing to succumb the temptations he offers.
I didn't, and therefore, he does not exist in my life.

I understand that we are not going to see eye to eye on this and that's OK. I don't expect everyone to believe as I believe. I also understand that your perception is more common than mine. I just wish you would open your mind to an understanding that sees a flaw in your thinking. You and I probably agree on 90% of the things going on in this world. That other 10% however is not incidental. There is a philosophy in biblical teaching. Even if you don't believe in the biblical story of God and Satan, Good and evil. Heaven and hell. There is still a philosophy inbedded within the story that is worth acknowledging.

From my point of view it would be better to claim no belief in a higher power than to claim a belief while rejecting power. What is the quote that was used in the move "The Usual Suspects". The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he doesn't exist.

[Solar]

I understand that we are not going to see eye to eye on this and that's OK. I don't expect everyone to believe as I believe. I also understand that your perception is more common than mine. I just wish you would open your mind to an understanding that sees a flaw in your thinking. You and I probably agree on 90% of the things going on in this world. That other 10% however is not incidental. There is a philosophy in biblical teaching. Even if you don't believe in the biblical story of God and Satan, Good and evil. Heaven and hell. There is still a philosophy inbedded within the story that is worth acknowledging.

From my point of view it would be better to claim no belief in a higher power than to claim a belief while rejecting power. What is the quote that was used in the move "The Usual Suspects". The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he doesn't exist.

I suspected what I said would be taken literal, which is a mistake, I'm a much deeper thinker than most give me credit for, simply because I don't post all that often in Religion. (but search throughout Religion, you'll see that I have a very real grasp of my purpose on this planet)

What I meant by Satan doesn't exist in my world, is that I refuse to acknowledge him.
Truth is, without evil, one would never experience good, for without evil, one has no ruler with which to measure good.

Does that clear it up?

[TboneAgain]

I understand that we are not going to see eye to eye on this and that's OK. I don't expect everyone to believe as I believe. I also understand that your perception is more common than mine. I just wish you would open your mind to an understanding that sees a flaw in your thinking. You and I probably agree on 90% of the things going on in this world. That other 10% however is not incidental. There is a philosophy in biblical teaching. Even if you don't believe in the biblical story of God and Satan, Good and evil. Heaven and hell. There is still a philosophy inbedded within the story that is worth acknowledging.

From my point of view it would be better to claim no belief in a higher power than to claim a belief while rejecting power. What is the quote that was used in the move "The Usual Suspects". The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he doesn't exist.

I thought his greatest trick was convincing the world that anthropogenic global warming does exist. Oh, wait. That was the Democrats. Honest mistake.