Quote from: Possum on April 28, 2023, 01:34:13 PMWhen DeSantis shut down Florida, he followed federal guidance on the lockdowns, masks, social distancing, in other words, he did what other states did, nothing special. Not exactly political courage if everyone is doing the same. So I have to ask again, were his hand picked staff members that bad? You do not give dates for when his team did their "real science" but I'm guessing it was about the time we ALL knew it was nothing. Why did they not push alternate drugs for fighting the virus from the beginning like Trump did? I will give him credit for not issuing a "stay at home", neither did Texas.

To Abbotts credit, he did not issue lockdowns, the cities were allowed to make their own decisions, and many left it up to the individual companies. The few "big block" stores I did go to voluntary issued their own restrictions and MOST places I went had no restrictions at all, thus NO REOPENING as they did not close. I find it hard to believe Florida was the freest state when in my neck of the woods there were no mask mandates to end, no lockdowns to stop, nobody looking to see if you had the vaccine, etc.

I pretty much said that DeSantis did not lead the pack on dissing CDC recommendations or  opened states. My distinction was, once enlightened, DeSantis would act aggressively and steadfastly against COVID mandates, CDC directives and even big pharma's leaky vaccines.
Knowing and believing all the evils of COVID are two different things, and there is where the timelines differ.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
 
Not sure about Abbott. But Texas is huge and has large cities which are, blue. That's the overall sentiment I seem to hear from Texans.

Quote from: Solar on April 28, 2023, 08:04:45 PMTALK ABOUT UNINFORMED?

Ron DeSantis wanted to send weapons to Ukraine when he was a congressman – as a presidential hopeful he questions US involvement

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/26/politics/ron-desantis-supported-ukraine-russia-kfile/index.html

I'd say DeSantis has shown us two qualities - being a quick enough study, and courage to right a wrong-headed policy.  His governance during COVID demonstrated those same qualities.

Quote from: taxed on April 28, 2023, 01:08:38 PMDid DeSantis win Trump strongholds in Florida at Trump's numbers?

Do "strongholds" make up the entire state of Florida?

Quote from: Solar on April 28, 2023, 11:00:20 AMAlthough Ron said "Never", once things settle down, he could be in the running for Veep, only because he'll have tarnished his reputation amongst the patriot base.
Once Trump is chosen, he's going to have a lot of damage to repair when all is said and done.

We shall see.

Quote from: WMK on April 29, 2023, 05:39:15 AMI'd say DeSantis has shown us two qualities - being a quick enough study, and courage to right a wrong-headed policy.  His governance during COVID demonstrated those same qualities.

Quick Study? The guy is ex JAG, he knew exactly what NATO was and is.
No, I'd say it's a clear window into the core of a man when it comes to war.

Trump on the other hand never got us into a war or started one, and even quelle a few serious issues along the way. Trump knows war is failed politics. while overlooking DeSantis failure and your need to see this as a quality, says a lot about your "LIBertarian politics".

You either fall on your values first and take a step back, or stick a wet finger in the air and follow public opinion.
The kid was ready to go with war until wiser heads stopped him.

This is a literal example of someone not only lacking a set of solid values, but one willing to change them on a whim.
That is not a Conservative trait!

Quote from: WMK on April 29, 2023, 04:53:28 AMI pretty much said that DeSantis did not lead the pack on dissing CDC recommendations or  opened states. My distinction was, once enlightened, DeSantis would act aggressively and steadfastly against COVID mandates, CDC directives and even big pharma's leaky vaccines.

My point is after the fact many states have taken the stance "never again". No mandates, no lockdowns. Where was this stance BEFORE everything was locked down. It is real easy now to be against vaccines, VERY FEW ARE STILL GETTING THE JABS!!!! Our Republican governors, all of them, let us down. I understand they had no idea what was coming, no excuse, NOTHING SHOULD TRUMP THE CONSTITUTION and EVERY STATE did.


But with that being said, on the bright side we learned from what happened. Like I stated above, SEVERAL states have taken the stance never again. Great! Most of the nation has seen exactly what Trump meant when he called out the deep state. This IMHO will not be what the election or the primaries will focus on.

QuoteKnowing and believing all the evils of COVID are two different things, and there is where the timelines differ.

Again, had everyone been able to see into the future, everyone would have made a different decisions. That's a no brainer. But if you are going to blame Trump for the way he handled the pandemic, I do not see where DeSantis did any different. Trump knew he did not have the constitutional authority to shut down businesses, why did DeSantis not see that also?

QuoteNot sure about Abbott. But Texas is huge and has large cities which are, blue. That's the overall sentiment I seem to hear from Texans.

Not sure your point here, there are several red states with blue cities, such as Florida. 

                                      

Quote from: Possum on April 29, 2023, 06:44:59 AMMy point is after the fact many states have taken the stance "never again". No mandates, no lockdowns. Where was this stance BEFORE everything was locked down. It is real easy now to be against vaccines, VERY FEW ARE STILL GETTING THE JABS!!!! Our Republican governors, all of them, let us down. I understand they had no idea what was coming, no excuse, NOTHING SHOULD TRUMP THE CONSTITUTION and EVERY STATE did.


But with that being said, on the bright side we learned from what happened. Like I stated above, SEVERAL states have taken the stance never again. Great! Most of the nation has seen exactly what Trump meant when he called out the deep state. This IMHO will not be what the election or the primaries will focus on.
Again, had everyone been able to see into the future, everyone would have made a different decisions. That's a no brainer. But if you are going to blame Trump for the way he handled the pandemic, I do not see where DeSantis did any different. Trump knew he did not have the constitutional authority to shut down businesses, why did DeSantis not see that also?

Not sure your point here, there are several red states with blue cities, such as Florida. 

                                       

So DeSantis was for lockdowns, while Trump was ALWAYS against them.
But somehow this makes Ron a proven leader? Am I missing something?          

Quote from: Solar on April 29, 2023, 07:10:58 AMSo DeSantis was for lockdowns, while Trump was ALWAYS against them.
But somehow this makes Ron a proven leader? Am I missing something?          

DeSantis is benefiting from a friendly press. The lsm wants Trump out of there.

Quote from: Possum on April 29, 2023, 08:25:08 AMDeSantis is benefiting from a friendly press. The lsm wants Trump out of there.

Exactly!!!! They did the same thing with Trump because they knew Cruz was going to win.
They'd eat DeSantis alive when they no longer needed him.

The LSM already know they don't stand a chance against Trump.

Quote from: Solar on April 29, 2023, 06:14:49 AMQuick Study? The guy is ex JAG, he knew exactly what NATO was and is.
No, I'd say it's a clear window into the core of a man when it comes to war.

Trump on the other hand never got us into a war or started one, and even quelle a few serious issues along the way. Trump knows war is failed politics. while overlooking DeSantis failure and your need to see this as a quality, says a lot about your "LIBertarian politics".

You either fall on your values first and take a step back, or stick a wet finger in the air and follow public opinion.
The kid was ready to go with war until wiser heads stopped him.

This is a literal example of someone not only lacking a set of solid values, but one willing to change them on a whim.
That is not a Conservative trait!

You've said lots of things ... blanket statements; all existing in the confines of your own mind. They call that theorizing.
No doubt Trump is a dove - went 5 for 5 when it came deferring from Viet Nam.

"You either fall on your values first and take a step back.."
Umm you take a step back BEFORE you "fall on your values" and seek wise counsel to see all the angles. 

"This is a literal example of someone not only lacking a set of solid values, but one willing to change them on a whim."
That is not a Conservative trait! Why define, Trump? You knew he wasn't a conservative going in.

Quote from: Possum on April 29, 2023, 06:44:59 AMMy point is after the fact many states have taken the stance "never again". No mandates, no lockdowns. Where was this stance BEFORE everything was locked down. It is real easy now to be against vaccines, VERY FEW ARE STILL GETTING THE JABS!!!! Our Republican governors, all of them, let us down. I understand they had no idea what was coming, no excuse, NOTHING SHOULD TRUMP THE CONSTITUTION and EVERY STATE did.


But with that being said, on the bright side we learned from what happened. Like I stated above, SEVERAL states have taken the stance never again. Great! Most of the nation has seen exactly what Trump meant when he called out the deep state. This IMHO will not be what the election or the primaries will focus on.
Again, had everyone been able to see into the future, everyone would have made a different decisions. That's a no brainer. But if you are going to blame Trump for the way he handled the pandemic, I do not see where DeSantis did any different. Trump knew he did not have the constitutional authority to shut down businesses, why did DeSantis not see that also?

Not sure your point here, there are several red states with blue cities, such as Florida. 

                                     

Hope you're right about "few" still getting the jabs. That would be good news for America. Maybe not so good though for the father of Operation Warp Speed - Donald Trump? If "the jabs" ever do become a front & center issue, Trump is going to take a lot of incoming fire. If it's specifically related to jab injuries/fatalities? Then the full immunity guarantee given 'big pharma' might explode like a bomb.

Trump gets the brunt of the blame for poor leadership during COVID because he was responsible for an entire nation. DeSantis too gets poor leadership blame during COVID because he was responsible for a state. Who had the greater responsibility as executive? That's why i hold Trump to a higher account.
That said, I've been harshest with the lack of responsibility on the part of our own citizenry. They, through ignorance & fear, were willing to hand over their personal freedoms to authoritarians and oligarchs Without any forms of organized noncompliance at all. Just a little perseverance by groups or clusters refusing to wear masks would have set a precedent early on. One or two is not enough, but dozens make that mandate unenforceable.  But I've said this all before,,, even here in 2021 I think.

My goodness, if Trump had any depth of constitutional knowledge or fortitude at all, he would have not permitted two bureaucrats to spout authoritarian dictates to "the people" ad nauseam on his own platform. Nor would he have publicly berated a republican governor for opening up too soon.
Better to print the facts than the legend, Possum.

As for Texas, let's consider, Dallas, Houston, Austin, El Paso etc. Don't think Fla. or any other state can equal those kinds of numbers, can they? 

Quote from: WMK on April 29, 2023, 03:56:29 PMHope you're right about "few" still getting the jabs. That would be good news for America. Maybe not so good though for the father of Operation Warp Speed - Donald Trump? If "the jabs" ever do become a front & center issue, Trump is going to take a lot of incoming fire. If it's specifically related to jab injuries/fatalities? Then the full immunity guarantee given 'big pharma' might explode like a bomb.

When the vaccine first came out almost 70% of Americans took the first jab. Less than 30% have taken boosters and that number is dropping with each additional booster. The biggest handicap this nation has to getting to the bottom of the whole pandemic story is people like you, the orange man bad crowd, who are willing to look past all the fraud, when the virus was developed, leaked, and spread. You are willing to overlook everyone who was actually responsible for the lockdowns and mandates because it does not fit your agenda of orange man bad. Where were the people who should have been backing Trump when he pushed to close our borders to keep the virus out? Where was any backing when he was pushing alternate medicines to fight the vaccine. THEY WERE AFRAID TO COME OUT FROM HIDING!!! You are bragging that AFTER THE FACT, now they stood tall and REVERSED THEIR ACTIONS. Where the hell were they when needed?????

You keep making the same claim, ""If "the jabs" ever do become a front & center issue, Trump is going to take a lot of incoming fire."" Where are those claims going to be coming from?? DeSantis? Won't happen, then he would have to answer the question, why did he shut down the state. Why did he mandate masks that do not work? Do you really think he is going to open up that can of worms? Yeah, he gets it now, everyone else does too.

QuoteTrump gets the brunt of the blame for poor leadership during COVID because he was responsible for an entire nation. DeSantis too gets poor leadership blame during COVID because he was responsible for a state. Who had the greater responsibility as executive? That's why i hold Trump to a higher account.

No you hold Trump to a orange man bad syndrome. You claim poor leadership, how? He made sure every request was handled. Dr.'s said they needed ventilators, he made sure they got them. Pharma said red tape would slow them down, he helped. When he saw the horror that followed closing down the country, by governors like DeSantis, he pushed for the reopening. He pushed for not allowing any planes to come into this country from China and everyone called him raciest. 

QuoteThat said, I've been harshest with the lack of responsibility on the part of our own citizenry. They, through ignorance & fear, were willing to hand over their personal freedoms to authoritarians and oligarchs Without any forms of organized noncompliance at all. Just a little perseverance by groups or clusters refusing to wear masks would have set a precedent early on. One or two is not enough, but dozens make that mandate unenforceable.  But I've said this all before,,, even here in 2021 I think.

First off I have to point out the irony, DeSantis was one of the "authoritarians and oligarchs" who took away the people's rights. Second, we are a nation of laws. If a person feels rights have been violated we have a court system and THAT IS HOW YOU FIGHT THAT. You are advocating organizing people to knowing disobey the law. Third, you are dead wrong that a few breaking the law would have stopped the law. Governments through out history have got the masses to comply by making an example out of a few.

QuoteMy goodness, if Trump had any depth of constitutional knowledge or fortitude at all, he would have not permitted two bureaucrats to spout authoritarian dictates to "the people" ad nauseam on his own platform.

You got real close here, what Trump should have done is stop governors like DeSantis from closing their states.

QuoteNor would he have publicly berated a republican governor for opening up too soon.

Trump was begging the states to reopen while DeSantis was still checking his poll numbers to see if they would go up or down.

QuoteBetter to print the facts than the legend, Possum

Maybe you can see that in your world, but here in reality you have not posted one fact. Sorry, go back and read your posts, couple of items stand out, you like DeSantis, and orange man bad.
.

QuoteAs for Texas, let's consider, Dallas, Houston, Austin, El Paso etc. Don't think Fla. or any other state can equal those kinds of numbers, can they?

Not only can I not see where you are going with this, I bet you have no idea where you are going with this.

Quote from: Possum on April 29, 2023, 05:47:49 PMWhen the vaccine first came out almost 70% of Americans took the first jab. Less than 30% have taken boosters and that number is dropping with each additional booster. The biggest handicap this nation has to getting to the bottom of the whole pandemic story is people like you, the orange man bad crowd, who are willing to look past all the fraud, when the virus was developed, leaked, and spread. You are willing to overlook everyone who was actually responsible for the lockdowns and mandates because it does not fit your agenda of orange man bad. Where were the people who should have been backing Trump when he pushed to close our borders to keep the virus out? Where was any backing when he was pushing alternate medicines to fight the vaccine. THEY WERE AFRAID TO COME OUT FROM HIDING!!! You are bragging that AFTER THE FACT, now they stood tall and REVERSED THEIR ACTIONS. Where the hell were they when needed?????

You keep making the same claim, ""If "the jabs" ever do become a front & center issue, Trump is going to take a lot of incoming fire."" Where are those claims going to be coming from?? DeSantis? Won't happen, then he would have to answer the question, why did he shut down the state. Why did he mandate masks that do not work? Do you really think he is going to open up that can of worms? Yeah, he gets it now, everyone else does too.

No you hold Trump to a orange man bad syndrome. You claim poor leadership, how? He made sure every request was handled. Dr.'s said they needed ventilators, he made sure they got them. Pharma said red tape would slow them down, he helped. When he saw the horror that followed closing down the country, by governors like DeSantis, he pushed for the reopening. He pushed for not allowing any planes to come into this country from China and everyone called him raciest. 

First off I have to point out the irony, DeSantis was one of the "authoritarians and oligarchs" who took away the people's rights. Second, we are a nation of laws. If a person feels rights have been violated we have a court system and THAT IS HOW YOU FIGHT THAT. You are advocating organizing people to knowing disobey the law. Third, you are dead wrong that a few breaking the law would have stopped the law. Governments through out history have got the masses to comply by making an example out of a few.

You got real close here, what Trump should have done is stop governors like DeSantis from closing their states.


Trump was begging the states to reopen while DeSantis was still checking his poll numbers to see if they would go up or down.

Maybe you can see that in your world, but here in reality you have not posted one fact. Sorry, go back and read your posts, couple of items stand out, you like DeSantis, and orange man bad.
.

Not only can I not see where you are going with this, I bet you have no idea where you are going with this.

Orange man good is not a bad thing. But orange man savior in an unhealthy thing. Before long, you'll likely be calling me a 'never Trumper', claiming I never voted for Trump at all.

This is a quote from Trump at a press conference April 2020 "
"I told the governor of Georgia, Brian Kemp, that I disagree strongly with his decision to open certain facilities."

Here's another April 2020 quote from Trump,

"For the purpose of creating conflict and confusion, some in the Fake News Media are saying that it is the Governors decision to open up the state, not that of the President of the United States & the Federal Government. Let it be fully understood that this is incorrect It is the decision. Of the President, and for many good reasons. With that being said, the Administration and I are working closely with the Governors, and this will continue."

Trump was never anti-lockdown or constitutionally opposed to it as you claimed. The fact is,  he worked hand-in-glove with Governors on that decision making process during the pandemic. For all I know, he might have called DeSantis and told him what a great job he was doing.   


That's the real world of Trump, not all the hyperbole here you're trying to pass off as fact. 
Get back to reality.

Quote from: WMK on April 29, 2023, 11:36:49 PMOrange man good is not a bad thing. But orange man savior in an unhealthy thing. Before long, you'll likely be calling me a 'never Trumper', claiming I never voted for Trump at all.

This is a quote from Trump at a press conference April 2020 "
"I told the governor of Georgia, Brian Kemp, that I disagree strongly with his decision to open certain facilities."

Here's another April 2020 quote from Trump,

"For the purpose of creating conflict and confusion, some in the Fake News Media are saying that it is the Governors decision to open up the state, not that of the President of the United States & the Federal Government. Let it be fully understood that this is incorrect It is the decision. Of the President, and for many good reasons. With that being said, the Administration and I are working closely with the Governors, and this will continue."

Trump was never anti-lockdown or constitutionally opposed to it as you claimed. The fact is,  he worked hand-in-glove with Governors on that decision making process during the pandemic. For all I know, he might have called DeSantis and told him what a great job he was doing.   


That's the real world of Trump, not all the hyperbole here you're trying to pass off as fact. 
Get back to reality.

Sorry wrong again. The big argument during this time period was who would be in charge of the reopening as the quotes below show, Trump or the governors. Since this had never happened before there was no court ruling. Trump was pushing for reopening and the governors were not going to be the first, as the first one shows.

QuoteThat doesn't mean the president can't be influential in encouraging states to open businesses back up, particularly in states led by Republican governors closely aligned with the president. But it does mean he can't order states or businesses to reopen

Quote"But presidential leadership will be key to the timing of the 'opening up' nationwide, as well as with issuing guidelines for how a presumably phased-in reopening will work," Shapiro continued. "In other words, legally speaking the president doesn't have the power to rescind state orders, but in practical terms, state and local authorities are likely to follow the federal government's lead."

QuoteThe president, according to the sources, spoke with industry leaders, conservative organizations and current staffers, and the bulk of these calls have focused on getting America back to work. Some outside associates are pressuring the president to re-open parts of the economy rather than pursue additional stimulus money.

Quote"... I like to allow governors to make decisions without overruling them, because from a constitutional standpoint, that's the way it should be done," the president said during his Friday Coronavirus Task Force briefing. "If I disagreed, I would overrule a governor, and I have that right to do it.  But I'd rather have them -- you can call it 'federalist,' you can call it 'the Constitution,' but I call it 'the Constitution.' I would rather have them make their decisions."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/no-trump-cant-order-states-to-reopen-constitutional-scholars-say/

After talking to scholars, Trump had this to say,

QuoteWASHINGTON – President Donald Trump embraced a less confrontational tone with the nation's governors Tuesday, asserting he wouldn't "force" states to reopen during the coronavirus pandemic a day after he claimed he had "absolute authority" to do so.

QuoteStill, Trump said he would be "authorizing" states to reopen, potentially before federal social distancing guidelines are set to expire at the end of the month. That remark appeared to mimic his earlier claim that the president has "absolute" authority to reopen the country from the economic stranglehold caused by the deadly coronavirus.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/14/coronavirus-governors-not-trump-have-total-authority-re-open/2989205001/

Quote from: WMK on April 29, 2023, 01:15:26 PMYou've said lots of things ... blanket statements; all existing in the confines of your own mind. They call that theorizing.
No doubt Trump is a dove - went 5 for 5 when it came deferring from Viet Nam.

"You either fall on your values first and take a step back.."
Umm you take a step back BEFORE you "fall on your values" and seek wise counsel to see all the angles. 

"This is a literal example of someone not only lacking a set of solid values, but one willing to change them on a whim."
That is not a Conservative trait! Why define, Trump? You knew he wasn't a conservative going in.

No, it's called Critical thought! Deducing from everything we know, be it the candidate himself, to those who back them, and their past actions as well.
This is why there is but one man for the job with a proven track record.

The alternative is a kid with a tiny window from which to judge outside of of a Conservative backing him.
Trump had none of that, the man stood before the people and stated exactly what he was going to do.
Many including myself, thought he was a liar, an ex Dim who was trying to keep Cruz out of the WH.

For 6 months I watched, waiting for him to turn on the base, and nothing, he was keeping his promises, so I began to support him and again, I was not alone.
But now, suddenly out of nowhere, Trump has a challenger? The base doesn't like that, challenging the one man they know can finish what he started, they know what is backing this sellout, and yes, that's exactly what DeSantis is, a sellout to the enemies of the people.

Yet you let your emotion block your critical thinking in supporting a proven candidate over that of a green kid, why is that?
No, you may see yourself as some form of enlightened conservative, but your actions are those of betrayal to our very way of life and culture and the world beyond.

Have you never even questioned why a bunch of Marxist sellouts would push for such a candidate at this time in history?
More so, why it is, you can't seem to see through the all bull shit?