Quote from: taxed on August 15, 2015, 10:17:44 PM
I understand, but you can't fault the sub contractors too much.  Everyone is under a margin and labor cost squeeze.  You can get foreign workers to do a lot more work for less money.  That increases production, and in manufacturing, reduces your cost per unit.  The solution is to kill the unions, eliminate the minimum wage.  I don't have a problem eliminating the H-1b visas.

I still would disagree.  There are fast and slow in every culture.  Another factor is their legal status.  They just become another in the American work force wanting to know when break time is.  But as for the minimum wage.  I am all for paying for the work done.  I am a good worker with lots of experience.  Not in the construction business.  But in electronics.  I think a person should be paid for experience and the work ethics they show in the work place.

Quote from: Chosen Daughter on August 15, 2015, 10:44:19 PM
I still would disagree.

I'm coming from a perspective of experience, not conjecture.

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  There are fast and slow in every culture.

Yes, but it's beyond that.  In food, for example, they will work and cut vegetables in a giant refrigerator, freezing their ass off, for 10 hours per day -- sometimes longer, at a fast pace.  It is difficult to recruit for a position like this, in any scale, for Americans.  When you do find some, the turnover itself just isn't worth it.

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  Another factor is their legal status.  They just become another in the American work force wanting to know when break time is.  But as for the minimum wage.  I am all for paying for the work done.  I am a good worker with lots of experience.  Not in the construction business.  But in electronics.  I think a person should be paid for experience and the work ethics they show in the work place.

A person should be paid as agreed upon between the business and the employee.  Competition will find the best compensation rate.

Quote from: taxed on August 15, 2015, 10:49:50 PM
I'm coming from a perspective of experience, not conjecture.
Yes, but it's beyond that.  In food, for example, they will work and cut vegetables in a giant refrigerator, freezing their ass off, for 10 hours per day -- sometimes longer, at a fast pace.  It is difficult to recruit for a position like this, in any scale, for Americans.  When you do find some, the turnover itself just isn't worth it.
A person should be paid as agreed upon between the business and the employee.  Competition will find the best compensation rate.

Well of coarse if you can't find American workers that want to do that job.  There are already plenty migrants and guest workers in America to fill those low wage labor jobs.  We don't need millions flooding into the U.S. to fill the positions.  Those positions also do not require H-1b visa's.  I think that every job should be offered to American citizens.  That is what a interview is supposed to accomplish.  A good candidate for the job.  Even in a low wage position.  You have to be a good judge of character not race!

Raising minimum wage will only force a company to pay skilled labor less so that they can meet the minimum wage.  There won't be any need to negotiate pay then or make any agreement because they won't be able to afford to pay skilled people more.

Thank you taxed for the good discussion.  I have to go to bed.  Worked OT today and tired.  Looking forward to more discussion.

Quote from: Chosen Daughter on August 15, 2015, 11:11:18 PM
Well of coarse if you can't find American workers that want to do that job.  There are already plenty migrants and guest workers in America to fill those low wage labor jobs.  We don't need millions flooding into the U.S. to fill the positions. 

I agree.  If we shut down the border, eliminate unions and minimum wage, it won't even be a labor cost issue, and there would be plenty of labor and room for companies to maneuver.

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Those positions also do not require H-1b visa's.  I think that every job should be offered to American citizens.  That is what a interview is supposed to accomplish.  A good candidate for the job.  Even in a low wage position.  You have to be a good judge of character not race!

I agree.

QuoteRaising minimum wage will only force a company to pay skilled labor less so that they can meet the minimum wage.  There won't be any need to negotiate pay then or make any agreement because they won't be able to afford to pay skilled people more.

Well, maybe, it depends on the company, but it increases labor costs, driving up cost per unit in any case.  Any time government interferes with natural market forces, it is bad and throws everything out of balance.

Quote from: The Boo Man... on August 15, 2015, 10:09:02 PM
Barry calls us lazy from the golf course.

Martha's vineyard at that. 

Quote from: Chosen Daughter on August 15, 2015, 11:16:22 PM
Thank you taxed for the good discussion.  I have to go to bed.  Worked OT today and tired.  Looking forward to more discussion.

Likewise.

Quote from: Chosen Daughter on August 15, 2015, 10:44:19 PM
I still would disagree.  There are fast and slow in every culture.  Another factor is their legal status.  They just become another in the American work force wanting to know when break time is.  But as for the minimum wage.  I am all for paying for the work done.  I am a good worker with lots of experience.  Not in the construction business.  But in electronics.  I think a person should be paid for experience and the work ethics they show in the work place.

We all get it, the country is full of illegals, but what you're saying is, we need to stop all immigration?
You do realize, some of the greatest minds in the world in this country, came from somewhere else, right?
Hell, without Oppenheimer, we'd possibly be speaking either Japanese or German.

Point is, the U.S. has always had an H1B requirement, where someone wanting to come here had to prove they were self sufficient, knew the language and had studied our history which required testing, hurdles that most Natives couldn't pass.

Unfortunately corporations are abusing the system as a way of replacing Americans with cheap labor, but it's not the fault of the system, it's crony corporatism, it's a failure of our Representation in DC, it's our fault for electing these scum, stupid people willing to elect idiots like Trump all because he hit's an emotional nerve.
There was a time when our immigration system wasn't brpken, because laws were enforced, Govt didn't promise blanket immunity for law breakers.

No, it's not the laws that are at issue, it's is our failure for being too damn lazy and stupid and getting off our asses and doing something about it.
Conservatives are notorious for not wanting to be bothered with participating, they just want to vote and hope those they elect do as they promised.
We have only ourselves to blame for letting the enemy takeover the system, all pretty much in our generation, with the help of our father's.

Quote from: Chosen Daughter on August 15, 2015, 08:35:05 PM
I see the issue.  American's are lazy.  Are you all lazy too?

Not to rattle you.
Are the American workers all doped up? Or hung over?
Good jobs don't do drug testing and they sure take advantage of the no test rules.
Now they holler that pot is legal. Who wants to work below a guy that could drop a wrench on you?

Quote from: Chosen Daughter on August 15, 2015, 09:42:44 PM
I have to say I am sorry for the above post.  I am going to let it stand though because if you are an American production worker you hear this kind of stuff all of the time.  And I said it because that is always what I think.  Are these corporate Supervisors, managers and CEO's excluding themselves from the lazy label?  As if the difference in position makes them a superior race above the lower class Americans.  Think about it.  The boss only hires these people because he .......  Work ethics don't come from what ethnicity you are.  When I hear this crap I think of my day at work.  The person sitting back in their chair socializing when the boss isn't looking.  I work hard whether anyone is looking or not so this kind of discussion is offensive.  Sorry I asked if anyone is lazy but because I'm American and production worker I am automatically grouped into the lazy workers.

No apology needed if you were talking to me. Excuse me but I'm blunt. I don't think new hires (young American people) are lazy. They seem to have bad attitudes. They hate the place when they walk thru the door. Like one of our bosses said If you feel like the company makes all the profits and the worker gets screwed by their wages, buy our stock as that is where the profits go. (Paraphrase)

Quote from: Chosen Daughter on August 15, 2015, 08:37:17 PM
It seems all Americans should forget working and get on welfare.  That is all they are capable of doing.

It's what killed South Africa. They grew lazy and imported cheap black labor from the north to "do the jobs South Africans wouldn't do." But wouldn't you know it, they began to demand "rights!" Who could have seen that coming?  Now South Africa is gone and the whites are paying for turning over their country to the inept.

Quote from: darroll on August 16, 2015, 10:43:05 AM
No apology needed if you were talking to me. Excuse me but I'm blunt. I don't think new hires (young American people) are lazy. They seem to have bad attitudes. They hate the place when they walk thru the door. Like one of our bosses said If you feel like the company makes all the profits and the worker gets screwed by their wages, buy our stock as that is where the profits go. (Paraphrase)

I agree with you. They are not lazy, but have bad attitudes. Why is this? What I observed with millennials before I retired is their energy is misguided because they are not prepared for the real world. Neither our education system or parents are preparing these folks for the real work world. Nobody told them to work hard, keep their noses clean and good things will happen. It is really easier now because so many new workers have no clue what good work ethic is.

Quote from: supsalemgr on August 16, 2015, 11:42:59 AM
I agree with you. They are not lazy, but have bad attitudes. Why is this? What I observed with millennials before I retired is their energy is misguided because they are not prepared for the real world. Neither our education system or parents are preparing these folks for the real work world. Nobody told them to work hard, keep their noses clean and good things will happen. It is really easier now because so many new workers have no clue what good work ethic is.

The Union shop that was in our place had a no questions ask if you got rid of someone within 30 days.  After that you needed all your ducks in a row.   One problem with that, anyone can work good for 30 day in a entry level job.  It's after the 30 days or when they move up that the problems start.  They think they should get what people that have work 10 to 30 years are getting, that help build the company through the years. 

Quote from: supsalemgr on August 16, 2015, 11:42:59 AM
I agree with you. They are not lazy, but have bad attitudes. Why is this? What I observed with millennials before I retired is their energy is misguided because they are not prepared for the real world. Neither our education system or parents are preparing these folks for the real work world. Nobody told them to work hard, keep their noses clean and good things will happen. It is really easier now because so many new workers have no clue what good work ethic is.

I agree.  The bad attitudes include a lack of respect for authority.  They do not hesitate to challenge the boss. Somehow "respect for authority" got omitted from their education process!!

Quote from: kroz on August 17, 2015, 12:29:10 PM
I agree.  The bad attitudes include a lack of respect for authority.  They do not hesitate to challenge the boss. Somehow "respect for authority" got omitted from their education process!!

Socrates and Plato said the same thing.