Quote from: The Boo Man... on April 21, 2014, 03:54:01 PM

   ROTFLMAF....  Sorry Ladies!

Quote from: taxed on April 20, 2014, 08:19:32 AM
Let's see how this goes...
Incorrect.  There was nothing involving health care reform in 2012.  You are attempting to refer to the ACA scam that influences those with a semi-permeable intellectual filter to reference it as "healthcare reform".  There was nothing involving health care, and nothing about reform.  I understand you are young, but that is not an excuse to no think.
Wrong.  Swing and miss.

For the sake of having a civil conversation I am willing to forgive you for suggesting I am a trained parrot. I have grown a thick skin when it comes to being criticized for being a student. I am not however willing to forgive you for implying for a single moment that I'm a filthy progressive who believes the 'Affordable Healthcare Act' was positive healthcare reform. If you want to have a semantics debate I'd argue that you using the official designation is little better than me referring to it as the healthcare reform.

When you use ACA do you mean to imply that you believe the law made healthcare affordable? I suspect not. I suspect you used it as a term of convenience.

Similarly I use 'healthcare reform' as a term of convenience and by no mean imply that I believe that travesty reforms things for the better. I hope you would understand that point by the context in which I brought it up and the fact that I am lurking here, but evidently you must have poor reading comprehension.

Okay that might be too mean. I am sure you have adequate reading comprehension, but I am still not pleased by your implication there. Please do try to be more careful in the future okay? It only serves to antagonize people.

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Steeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerike twooooooo...  They have no care for assimilating into our culture, and in fact, bring their 3rd world problems and diseases with them.  Forget about trying to learn English as an adult; how about they start with learning to put the toilet paper in the toilet and flush, instead of tossing in the waste basket?  Can they learn that as an adult?

Did you read the report I linked? Hispanics and other contemporary migrants are assimilating and they are assimilating more quickly than previous migrant groups. This isn't because they are better capable of assimilating than previous migrants; the United States simply has gained 'knowledge capital' on how to assimilate migrant groups. Unfortunately migration waves occur in such prolonged spans of time that most of us only live to see part of a wave and mistakenly fall to the myth that past migrants assimilated faster or that migrants are incapable of assimilating.

Looking at the long term picture shows that migrants do assimilate and that they are assimilating at increasing rates.

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So they can't speak their own language of Spanish, but are picking up English at a nice clip.

If you are trying to be wrong, then you're doing a great job.

I thought your English point above was the stupidest thing I'd hear all day.  You just beat it.

You're not a student.  You are a trained parrot.

The children and the grandchildren of migrants are learning English, yes. Looking at the 2nd and 3rd generation migrant population is what matters as it shows us what is occurring in the long run.

Migrants themselves rarely become fluent in English. This isn't because they are mentally retarded, this isn't because they come from a culture that doesn't value education, or anything silly like that. Learning a language is simply difficult to do and the human mind best learns languages in the first few years of life. This is why I find it humorous that the state education system doesn't bother teaching a second language until someone has left the golden years for education. Then again, what can we expect from state education?

QuoteMichelangelo I think one of the most important things I learned in graduate school was that graduate students always think they have the answer.  Even when they do now know what they are talking about they believe they have the wisdom to see through every problem.   That was over 30 years ago and while you may not understand what I am saying I think that 30 years from now you will. 

I appreciate your advice, however I must inform you that I am making no claim that I know 'the answer'. I am fully aware of the limitations of my knowledge. I am not sure how things were when you were in school, but I like to think that students today know full well that they can only hope to know a small portion of humanity's collective knowledge.

It just so happens that immigration is an area where I feel more than adequate speaking on. If you need a citation for anything I claim here I am more than happy to provide it. I would just throw links en mass to academic papers, but I know most of it won't be read if I did so.

QuoteThere is no way that you could say that immigrants do not take ANY jobs that citizens would have taken.  I am talking illegal immigrants.  Clearly a graduate economists understands what happens when you have an over abundance of supply.  I am not trying to sound like your comments are all wrong as much as I am suggesting that real world experience needs to be learned in places other than a text book or classroom.  I hold a graduate degree but I am not embarrassed to say that  I have been given some great advice and approaches to problems by people that worked for me at the lowest levels.  Theory and calculations are important but where the rubber hits the road often changes the whole plan.

Again, I appreciate your comments but I disagree with them. My knowledge of this issue is complemented by my academic background but it is by no means my only connection with the subject. I do not know how things were in your days, but here too I like to think that modern students do not limit themselves to the ivory tower. Many of us actively go out to see what people are saying about the subject on the outside. I wouldn't be here otherwise would I?

As for your other comment, I think you misunderstand me. There are certainly jobs that migrants get that natives would have wanted. However the fact that the migrant got this job means that they are better capable of getting the job done, given the willingness of the employer to pay a certain amount for it to be done. This is okay. The number of jobs are not finite. Indeed, the fact that the job is now being performed by someone better capable of performing it means that society as a whole is richer and capable of creating additional jobs. Immigration allows natives to gravitate towards those jobs they are best suited to. If you ever took a course in Economics, which really should be taught alongside civics at primary schools  but I digress, you would understand I am referring to Ricardo's law of association/the theory of comparative advantage.

Furthermore I fear the supply-demand model is regularly abused on this issue. Yes, immigration increases the supply of labor. It also increases the demand for labor though. In the United States the shift on both sides more or less even out and immigration's effect on the labor market is insignificant or positive. David Card, UC Berkeley Economics Professor and one of the leading authorities on the economics of immigration, has plenty of articles on this issue in his personal site for those interested.

There is also a youtube video by Card for those who don't like reading academic papers. I don't blame you if you prefer the youtube video; I don't think anyone in academia likes reading academic literature either but that is another digression.


P.S. For full disclosure I am a second generation immigrant. Needless to say this a deeply personal issue for me, not only because I am a migrant but because I am a conservative. When not studying I am actively trying to spread the cause among the migrant community.

It saddens me how migrants are portrayed as being inclined towards the welfare state and progressivism. They aren't. To the contrary they value liberty and the value of the US in a way that few natives can. To be frank, it is funny how Obama is portrayed as a tyrant. By all means he is an idiot and how he got elected twice I'll never know, but a tyrant he is not. The true tyrants of the world are men like Putin in Russia, the Castro brothers in Cuba, or Chavez and his legacy in Venezuela. Obama is scary because he resembles these men, but he is still restrained compared to what a true tyrant is. For all its troubles the United States is still a lonely light in a dark world of tyranny. It on occasion flickers, but it is still the only light out there. You don't have to convince migrants of this - they left their past to come here and try to capture a bit of that light for themselves and their children. Immigration is not done on a whim.

Many migrants are poorly educated, but this is not their fault. They did not have access to the services that US natives did. No one wants to be poorly educated, but they had no choice. On occasion they will support a policy because they have been tricked into doing so - but they do not actively seek to do harm to the US. The conservative movement could easily capture their support if we could package our message for them.

But it is extremely difficult to do so when we advocate anti-migrant messages. Can any of you imagine supporting Bush or McCain when the rest of your community were rooting for Kerry/Hilary/Obama/etc.? "How can you support a Republican? Don't you know they hate you?". Do any of you have any idea how embedded Democrats are in migrant communities solely because of this issue?

I am not here to troll. I am not here to try to reason here that we can adopt a more migrant friendly message that will let us fight the Democrats on equal footing with the migrant community.

Quote from: Michelangelo on April 21, 2014, 09:30:35 PM
For the sake of having a civil conversation I am willing to forgive you for suggesting I am a trained parrot. I have grown a thick skin when it comes to being criticized for being a student. I am not however willing to forgive you for implying for a single moment that I'm a filthy progressive who believes the 'Affordable Healthcare Act' was positive healthcare reform. If you want to have a semantics debate I'd argue that you using the official designation is little better than me referring to it as the healthcare reform.

The fact that you call it "healthcare reform" shows how clueless you are.

Quote
When you use ACA do you mean to imply that you believe the law made healthcare affordable? I suspect not. I suspect you used it as a term of convenience.

Take note of the word I placed right after "ACA".  Second, ACA is the name of the legislation.  Not sure if you were told that or not.

Quote
Similarly I use 'healthcare reform' as a term of convenience and by no mean imply that I believe that travesty reforms things for the better. I hope you would understand that point by the context in which I brought it up and the fact that I am lurking here, but evidently you must have poor reading comprehension.

Okay that might be too mean. I am sure you have adequate reading comprehension, but I am still not pleased by your implication there. Please do try to be more careful in the future okay? It only serves to antagonize people.

Don't come here an parrot.  This isn't your local Starbucks.

Quote
Did you read the report I linked? Hispanics and other contemporary migrants are assimilating and they are assimilating more quickly than previous migrant groups. This isn't because they are better capable of assimilating than previous migrants; the United States simply has gained 'knowledge capital' on how to assimilate migrant groups. Unfortunately migration waves occur in such prolonged spans of time that most of us only live to see part of a wave and mistakenly fall to the myth that past migrants assimilated faster or that migrants are incapable of assimilating.

Wrong.

Quote
Looking at the long term picture shows that migrants do assimilate and that they are assimilating at increasing rates.

Wrong.

Quote
The children and the grandchildren of migrants are learning English, yes. Looking at the 2nd and 3rd generation migrant population is what matters as it shows us what is occurring in the long run.

Migrants themselves rarely become fluent in English. This isn't because they are mentally retarded, this isn't because they come from a culture that doesn't value education, or anything silly like that. Learning a language is simply difficult to do and the human mind best learns languages in the first few years of life. This is why I find it humorous that the state education system doesn't bother teaching a second language until someone has left the golden years for education. Then again, what can we expect from state education?

You're demonstrating it.

Quote
I appreciate your advice, however I must inform you that I am making no claim that I know 'the answer'. I am fully aware of the limitations of my knowledge. I am not sure how things were when you were in school, but I like to think that students today know full well that they can only hope to know a small portion of humanity's collective knowledge.

It just so happens that immigration is an area where I feel more than adequate speaking on. If you need a citation for anything I claim here I am more than happy to provide it. I would just throw links en mass to academic papers, but I know most of it won't be read if I did so.

Doesn't seem like it.

Quote
Again, I appreciate your comments but I disagree with them. My knowledge of this issue is complemented by my academic background but it is by no means my only connection with the subject. I do not know how things were in your days, but here too I like to think that modern students do not limit themselves to the ivory tower. Many of us actively go out to see what people are saying about the subject on the outside. I wouldn't be here otherwise would I?

As for your other comment, I think you misunderstand me. There are certainly jobs that migrants get that natives would have wanted. However the fact that the migrant got this job means that they are better capable of getting the job done, given the willingness of the employer to pay a certain amount for it to be done. This is okay. The number of jobs are not finite. Indeed, the fact that the job is now being performed by someone better capable of performing it means that society as a whole is richer and capable of creating additional jobs. Immigration allows natives to gravitate towards those jobs they are best suited to. If you ever took a course in Economics, which really should be taught alongside civics at primary schools  but I digress, you would understand I am referring to Ricardo's law of association/the theory of comparative advantage.

You know nothing about economics.

Quote
Furthermore I fear the supply-demand model is regularly abused on this issue. Yes, immigration increases the supply of labor. It also increases the demand for labor though. In the United States the shift on both sides more or less even out and immigration's effect on the labor market is insignificant or positive. David Card, UC Berkeley Economics Professor and one of the leading authorities on the economics of immigration, has plenty of articles on this issue in his personal site for those interested.

There is also a youtube video by Card for those who don't like reading academic papers. I don't blame you if you prefer the youtube video; I don't think anyone in academia likes reading academic literature either but that is another digression.

David Card is a complete moron.  It makes sense that you would parrot someone like that.  Try thinking. You might like it.

Quote
P.S. For full disclosure I am a second generation immigrant. Needless to say this a deeply personal issue for me, not only because I am a migrant but because I am a conservative. When not studying I am actively trying to spread the cause among the migrant community.

Nobody cares.

Quote
It saddens me how migrants are portrayed as being inclined towards the welfare state and progressivism. They aren't. To the contrary they value liberty and the value of the US in a way that few natives can. To be frank, it is funny how Obama is portrayed as a tyrant. By all means he is an idiot and how he got elected twice I'll never know, but a tyrant he is not. The true tyrants of the world are men like Putin in Russia, the Castro brothers in Cuba, or Chavez and his legacy in Venezuela. Obama is scary because he resembles these men, but he is still restrained compared to what a true tyrant is. For all its troubles the United States is still a lonely light in a dark world of tyranny. It on occasion flickers, but it is still the only light out there. You don't have to convince migrants of this - they left their past to come here and try to capture a bit of that light for themselves and their children. Immigration is not done on a whim.

Many migrants are poorly educated, but this is not their fault. They did not have access to the services that US natives did. No one wants to be poorly educated, but they had no choice. On occasion they will support a policy because they have been tricked into doing so - but they do not actively seek to do harm to the US. The conservative movement could easily capture their support if we could package our message for them.

Quit making excuses for stupid people.  The US school system makes kids, like yourself, equally as stupid as a 3rd world immigrant.  Again, try thinking and learning.

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But it is extremely difficult to do so when we advocate anti-migrant messages.

Nobody is preaching an anti-immigrant message.  That's what idiots, like your professors and David Card, think, and you run around and parrot it like a good little troll.

Quote
Can any of you imagine supporting Bush or McCain when the rest of your community were rooting for Kerry/Hilary/Obama/etc.? "How can you support a Republican? Don't you know they hate you?". Do any of you have any idea how embedded Democrats are in migrant communities solely because of this issue?

I am not here to troll. I am not here to try to reason here that we can adopt a more migrant friendly message that will let us fight the Democrats on equal footing with the migrant community.

Too late.

I am going to jump in here briefly to simply say there is nothing, nothing in the ACA that addresses any concerns regarding health care. The entire law is devoted to health insurance. Anyone who does not know this at this point should not be discussing it at all.

Carry on.

Quote from: The Boo Man... on April 21, 2014, 11:58:23 PM
I am going to jump in here briefly to simply say there is nothing, nothing in the ACA that addresses any concerns regarding health care. The entire law is devoted to health insurance. Anyone who does not know this at this point should not be discussing it at all.

Carry on.

Exactly! It never had a thing to do with peoples health, and everything to do with 'Govt' control over an industry, Nationalism, which is why I lovingly refer to it as Commiecare.

None of my claims have been rebuked. Saying 'wrong' or going for personal attacks are not valid argumentative tactics. You believe Card, one of the leading economists alive is wrong? But you don't feel the need to elaborate why he is wrong? A personal attack on him doesn't count.

I'm on your side. I want conservatism to win, but it will not do so if it continues to side with the anti-migrant crowd. I urge those sincerely interested in these issues to read the links I have provided. One can be a consistent conservative and support greater immigration and better treatment of current migrants. Indeed, I believe consistent conservatism to require a defense of migrants.

There are those in the migrant community such as myself who are conservative and wish to work alongside you all. We are in this country for a reason. We love America and its value. We love free markets. We love family values. We love liberty. We are for all intents and purposes Americans, we must have simply been born outside the US due to a clerical error. I suppose not even the Kingdom of Heaven is free of incompetent civil servants!

You'll probably just ignore me or do another 'wrong!' attack without actually addressing me. That is okay. I know you won't change your minds in one thread. I hope you all come around one day. I won't pretend there won't be resentment at first, but when you ready to change your mind on this issue we will be more than happy to fight alongisde you for our country's future.

Good bye and God bless you all. I'll go back to lurking now.

Quote from: Michelangelo on April 22, 2014, 01:34:22 PM
None of my David Card's claims have been rebuked.

Fixed it, parrot.

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Saying 'wrong' or going for personal attacks are not valid argumentative tactics.

Parroting idiocy is not debate or discussion.  When you bring some intellect to the table, then we'll go that route.

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You believe Card, one of the leading economists alive is wrong? But you don't feel the need to elaborate why he is wrong? A personal attack on him doesn't count.

I don't think he's an economist, or leading anything.  I think he is a great parrot trainer, but not much more beyond that.  He certainly doesn't have my level of experience, so I might as well read some manifesto written by a third grader.

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I'm on your side. I want conservatism to win, but it will not do so if it continues to side with the anti-migrant crowd.

I'm not anti-migrant.  That's just more liberal idiocy you've been spoonfed.

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I urge those sincerely interested in these issues to read the links I have provided. One can be a consistent conservative and support greater immigration and better treatment of current migrants. Indeed, I believe consistent conservatism to require a defense of migrants.

He brings no intellect to the table.  Post someone who writes intelligent things.

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There are those in the migrant community such as myself who are conservative and wish to work alongside you all. We are in this country for a reason. We love America and its value. We love free markets. We love family values. We love liberty. We are for all intents and purposes Americans, we must have simply been born outside the US due to a clerical error. I suppose not even the Kingdom of Heaven is free of incompetent civil servants!

No.  You're here because your mom pooped you out on American soil.  You also need to learn some basic economics.  Badly.

Quote
You'll probably just ignore me or do another 'wrong!' attack without actually addressing me. That is okay. I know you won't change your minds in one thread. I hope you all come around one day. I won't pretend there won't be resentment at first, but when you ready to change your mind on this issue we will be more than happy to fight alongisde you for our country's future.

You can't change our minds by posting liberal idiocy.

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Good bye and God bless you all. I'll go back to lurking now.

That's the smartest idea you've had!

Quote from: The Boo Man... on April 21, 2014, 11:58:23 PM
I am going to jump in here briefly to simply say there is nothing, nothing in the ACA that addresses any concerns regarding health care. The entire law is devoted to health insurance. Anyone who does not know this at this point should not be discussing it at all.

Carry on.

Exactly.  To use it in the context of anything health care related is ridiculous.

Quote from: taxed on April 22, 2014, 02:53:31 PM

QuoteGood bye and God bless you all. I'll go back to lurking now.

You can't change our minds by posting liberal idiocy.
That's the smartest idea you've had!

This sounds more like if you don't think my way.   I am going to take my ball home until you come around to my way of thinking. 

Quote from: walkstall on April 22, 2014, 03:12:53 PM
You can't change our minds by posting liberal idiocy.
That's the smartest idea you've had!


This sounds more like if you don't think my way.   I am going to take my ball home until you come around to my way of thinking.

He's not the brightest bulb in the drawer.

Quote from: taxed on April 22, 2014, 03:15:56 PM
He's not the brightest bulb in the drawer.

Well he did say he was A Twenty Something Economics Grad Student. 

I have over 65 years of hard knocks economics and I am still learning even after 65 years of working.     I have learned don't trust the government do not put all your eggs in one basket and at my age to life like there is no tomorrow.

Quote from: walkstall on April 22, 2014, 03:49:49 PM
Well he did say he was A Twenty Something Economics Grad Student. 

That explains why he doesn't know anything...

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I have over 65 years of hard knocks economics and I am still learning even after 65 years of working.     I have learned don't trust the government do not put all your eggs in one basket and at my age to life like there is no tomorrow.

If you understand that, you pretty much understand it all!

And with that Michaelangelo left the forum with his head held high and his feet held higher...

Quote from: The Boo Man... on April 22, 2014, 03:53:25 PM
And with that Michaelangelo left the forum with his head held high and his feet held higher...

They're adorable at this age.