http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304626304579508091839546088?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304626304579508091839546088.html (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304626304579508091839546088?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304626304579508091839546088.html)
All they need to do is pass any bill then the senate bill will be adopted in conference.
Obama is masterful on this issue. He knows reps want amnesty so bad they can taste it so he keeps telling the swine reps if they dont pass it he will do it himself. Obama also knows when reps pass amnesty it will create animosity with the rep base. If these pigs pass amnesty will i bother voting for them in November? NOPE.
Amnesty! Instant democrat voter! Some people shoot themselves in the foot, the GOP shoots themselves in the head with this brainless idea.
Quote from: tac on April 18, 2014, 05:26:46 AM
Amnesty! Instant democrat voter! Some people shoot themselves in the foot, the GOP shoots themselves in the head with this brainless idea.
Is all about the money!
Money and cheap labor.
Quote from: dashvinny on April 18, 2014, 06:15:56 AM
Money and cheap labor.
Heck! That isn't all either. I don't want to use that much space here to list all of it but I've got an axe to grind on this. Not just votes and cheap labor plus money in the pockets of congressional hopefuls either.
How many people do we have in this country that are looking for jobs? How many of these have given up altogether, not in the official count of the jobless? How in the world can you collect so called "Penalties" for not having insurance coverage from these people? How are these jobless people eating? What is happening to the children of the jobless? And we're worried about the damned Mexicans? Puhlease!!
There's got to be a special place prepared in hell for the godless bunch of people that we have in Washington.
When the 2008 elections were going on, I hated the fact that more emphasis was placed on affordable healthcare for everyone than was placed on creating jobs which, at that time, were being lost by the thousands per week, my company in that bunch.
It didn't all start in 2008, some attributed to the Bush administration but not all. This was a situation that Oblammer walked in on but definitely one of the main issues that he should have addressed immediately. But, in every situation confronting Oblammer, he has seemingly put the cart in front of the horse. In their rush to grant amnesty, this crowd in the WH is creating problems for us already here that will never be resolved. They can't even take care of the needy here. They are operating off of borrowed money when they can't squeeze enough out of taxpayers. Cheaper labor? More revenue from cheap labor? Go figure after you take care of their insurance and food, plus housing and transportation. :cursing: :cursing: :cursing: :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:
Those of you that lost your insurance, plus jobs and maybe even your homes, are all victims of what greed can produce. Why in the world would more people straighten this mess out? People that can't even speak our language most of the time. It is a flat out lie that these folks can adapt to their new culture.
I substituted in primary and high school during my retirement. One of my first jobs was at an elementary school in 2003. The classes were K4 thru 8th grade. At that time, a new elementary school was being built to accommodate the growing population. A certain many were transferred to this school from a school that was being turned into a latch-key project. The class I subbed in one particular day was loaded with latinos and there was one white kid and two blacks in that class, a full class. Not one of the latinos knew how to speak our language. This was a K4 class but the teacher that I was helping did not know their language and neither did I. The teacher in charge told me when I asked her how we were supposed to teach them that "they caught pretty good by watching the other three"(non-Hispanics) in the class. I almost hit the ceiling. Later that day, I requested being transferred to the higher grades. That first class was like a babysitting job, I guessed, so the cheap labor could run their jobs! Done for now, my nerves won't take much venting.
Quote from: dashvinny on April 18, 2014, 05:06:47 AM
Obama is masterful on this issue.
-Except for one unavoidably-glaring fact: He/the Dems had a veto-proof supermajority...
and they never touched amnesty. That's a giant 'OOPS' area for 'em. I've never heard the kimono-wearer even address it. And the rhetorical popcorn-popper goes into Woodstock-mode whenever somebody reminds Carney of it.
As for Bumner, he's finished. I'm pretty-sure the House
Majority is being 'run' by 'committee' until November at least... via Cornyn and Cantor, most-likely.
Hello there everyone. I'm a long time lurker of these forums but first time poster.
@keyboarder
I share your sentiment regarding the 2012 presidential elections, it was very disappointing to see how healthcare reform was given more emphasize by the candidates than the state of the economy. Then again, political candidates aren't known for their knowledge of economics and if they had any prolonged discussion on the topic it would quickly become clear just how ignorant they are of the field.
I disagree with you however when you imply that immigrants, lawful or unlawful, are taking the jobs of natives. This simply isn't true. Migrants increase both the supply and demand for labor; in order words they both take and create jobs. Due to the United States' large population size migrants have a relatively small positive effect on the labor market. They don't create as many jobs as migration did when the United States' population was smaller, but their effect is still a net positive for job growth.
Also I must disagree with you on this perception that migrants do not assimilate to American culture. It is true that first generation migrants tend to speak perpetual broken English, but this isn't due to a lack of trying. Languages are best learned when one is young and the brain is a metaphorical sponge. One can try to learn a new language later in life, but only a rare few are capable of becoming fluent at the same level as natives. What is more important is the language acquisition skills of 2nd and 3rd generation migrant descendants. Research on this area has shown that in these latter generations that English becomes the dominant language and that knowledge original language (Spanish in this case) is lost correspondingly.
Contrary to popular belief, migrants today are actually assimilating to use of the English language at a faster rate than earlier migrant waves to the United States. Germans in particular, who first began migrating during the colonial era, continued the use of their language well into the 20th century. Pockets of Texas spoke a german dialect predominantly until WW2. Pennsylvania Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Dutch), a germanic language, is still spoken among the Amish and similar sub-groups several hundred years after they first migrated to the United States.
Two final notes. Migrants actually make things such as transportation infrastructure since they reduce the marginal amount each tax payer must pay to fund roads and transit. Secondly, as a student of Economics, I take great offense to how desire for 'money' is being looked upon here. The desire for money is itself not sinful. Furthermore the desire for money should be put into context; very few individuals desire money for its own sake. The desire for money is really the desire for the goods and services that money can command. This includes paying for both our own living costs and the living costs of our families. Surely no one here believes it wrong to want to support your family?
Quote from: kit saginaw on April 18, 2014, 10:09:03 AM
-Except for one unavoidably-glaring fact: He/the Dems had a veto-proof supermajority... and they never touched amnesty. That's a giant 'OOPS' area for 'em. I've never heard the kimono-wearer even address it. And the rhetorical popcorn-popper goes into Woodstock-mode whenever somebody reminds Carney of it.
As for Bumner, he's finished. I'm pretty-sure the House Majority is being 'run' by 'committee' until November at least... via Cornyn and Cantor, most-likely.
Eric Cantor is going to make boner look like a great speaker.
Quote from: kit saginaw on April 18, 2014, 10:09:03 AM
-Except for one unavoidably-glaring fact: He/the Dems had a veto-proof supermajority... and they never touched amnesty. That's a giant 'OOPS' area for 'em. I've never heard the kimono-wearer even address it. And the rhetorical popcorn-popper goes into Woodstock-mode whenever somebody reminds Carney of it.
As for Bumner, he's finished. I'm pretty-sure the House Majority is being 'run' by 'committee' until November at least... via Cornyn and Cantor, most-likely.
Agree. With an additional point. He knows quite well it will never happen, but his corporate masters are still demanding he follow through as he's been told to do.
He wants his golden parachute as promised, so if he doesn't push their agenda of cheap labor, he walks away broke with the exception of what he steals from the taxpayers.
Cornyn is another that has to go.
In addition to the harmful impact illegal immigrants have on the economy, they also are taxing our social programs and healthcare to the limit of their capacity. I have read that some hospitals along the Mexican border are closing because they can no longer sustain the monetary losses caused by Mexicans and others from across the southern border coming for free medical care.
But my basic complaint with illegal immigration is that they are changing the culture of the country. I personally resent having to punch "Dos" for Spanish every time I make a phone call other than personal calls, of course. If there is any immigration bill, and I certainly hope their isn't, I would want it to specify that English is the language spoken here and that immigrants must learn to speak it within a certain period of time. I would want to do away with all signs in Spanish. In the past, immigrants assimulated with the population, learning English and learning and adhering to our customs. That is no longer the case. I don't think Spanish is an inferior language, I just think it is the language spoken south of the border and English is spoken here.
Quote from: Charliemyboy on April 18, 2014, 12:47:58 PM
In addition to the harmful impact illegal immigrants have on the economy, they also are taxing our social programs and healthcare to the limit of their capacity. I have read that some hospitals along the Mexican border are closing because they can no longer sustain the monetary losses caused by Mexicans and others from across the southern border coming for free medical care.
Correction, illegal aliens are only eligible for emergency room treatment.
It is true that migrant population are creating fiscal burdens on municipalities, but it is not due to services rendered to actual migrants but rather services rendered to their children. This isn't unique to the children of migrants; there are similar problems for children of natives as well. The current system redistributes wealth from childless individuals towards families.
What is needed here is for reform in how primary education and basic healthcare services for children is funded and administered. Introducing a voucher system would be a good start towards.
Quote
But my basic complaint with illegal immigration is that they are changing the culture of the country. I personally resent having to punch "Dos" for Spanish every time I make a phone call other than personal calls, of course.
Small correction, you'd presumably be pushing 'one'. You'd only push 'dos' if you wanted to get instructions in Spanish.
Quote
If there is any immigration bill, and I certainly hope their isn't, I would want it to specify that English is the language spoken here and that immigrants must learn to speak it within a certain period of time. I would want to do away with all signs in Spanish.
Why would you want to make language a federal issue? States and commonwealths can and do set their own languages. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States#Official_language_status) Puerto Rico may not be a state (yet) but it may soon become the 51st state and its primary language is Spanish. Several states retain historical linguistic minorities, such as the French in Maine and Louisianan or Spanish in New Mexico, Texas, California and the rest of the southwest. Then there are of course the german dialects still spoken by the Amish people, and the indigenous languages of the Indian nations.
English is the
de facto language of the United States and the world's lingua franca. This alone is sufficient to encourage migrants to learn the language to the best of their abilities. Few migrants become truly fluent, but this is not due to an unwillingness of their part. Language acquisition is simply difficult after one passes the early years of development. 2nd and 3rd generation descendants of migrants do become fluent in English and largely forget their parent's tongue.
QuoteIn the past, immigrants assimulated with the population, learning English and learning and adhering to our customs. That is no longer the case. I don't think Spanish is an inferior language, I just think it is the language spoken south of the border and English is spoken here.
As I've noted, immigrants are actually assimilating quicker today than their older counterparts. The idea that there was a golden age where all migrants came off the boat at Ellis Island with perfect English fluency is a myth. Spanish may be written on in signs around migrant communities, but in the past these signs were written on in Italian, German, and almost every other language you can imagine. It is likely that today's Spanish signs will be replaced with signs in Chinese and Indian languages as migration patterns change.
It is precisely the United States' prior experience with assimilating migrants in the past that has created institutions capable of better assimilating today's migrants.
This is also why migrants in the United States assimilate much faster than Europe or elsewhere in the world. For much of the modern history Europe has been a region of net emigration and has little experience in dealing with new arrivals.
He says this every week...
Quote from: The Boo Man... on April 18, 2014, 01:36:38 PM
He says this every week...
My thoughts exactly. A troll has returned.
He says it because he wants it.
Quote from: dashvinny on April 18, 2014, 02:31:49 PM
He says it because he wants it.
No one doubts that but he has been saying he's going to do it for 2 years and you have been predicting it will happen since last year. It's almost summer and there isn't even a bill to bring to the floor. The 2014 legislative session in half over...
Why can't we just rip-off illegal-immigrants like Mexico does to Hondurans, etc.? -Take their money at gunpoint, then call-ahead to the checkpoint... " They still have some money and possessions. " It can go toward a John-and-Jeb crying-towel fund.
I know that's meant as sarcasm, but it's just plain silly. A better solution would be to stop them at the border and have them return from whence they came, with their goods and money or whatever they have. It really is an insult to your country to say anything so absurd. Is it your country? I can't tell by your posts.
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi800.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fyy285%2Fbronx1957%2FObamasGOP.jpg&hash=e40c73a5e2b7c45b7cef3a3c35d28d8e3fa70fea)
Quote from: Bronx on April 19, 2014, 10:49:06 AM
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I would love to get a tee shirt like that...very funny.
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Quote from: Charliemyboy on April 19, 2014, 06:49:43 AM
I know that's meant as sarcasm, but it's just plain silly. A better solution would be to stop them at the border and have them return from whence they came, with their goods and money or whatever they have. It really is an insult to your country to say anything so absurd. Is it your country? I can't tell by your posts.
I always cut-right-thru the BS. If you make the
indocumentados fear the border, they'll be less cavalier in crossing the border.
http://www.examiner.com/article/hypocritical-mexico-is-now-building-their-own-wall-on-border-with-guatemala-press-ignores (http://www.examiner.com/article/hypocritical-mexico-is-now-building-their-own-wall-on-border-with-guatemala-press-ignores)
Of course, the U.S. press has completely ignored the story...They excoriate Americans for their desire to simply defend their own borders, but give Mexico a pass for building a wall to keep out illegal aliens.The Mexican-military and
all levels of police, including local, are required to enforce immigration-law:
http://www.vdare.com/articles/memo-from-mexico-by-allan-wall-163 (http://www.vdare.com/articles/memo-from-mexico-by-allan-wall-163)
The Mexican government, needless to say, is strongly opposed to U.S. police enforcing the immigration law. It could make Mexico's stealth amnesty program, its matricula consular campaign, irrelevant.So my sarcasm arises from;
If Mexico isn't taking any heat from the MSM, logic says we should just copy the way they handle it. -No amnesty. Pay the fine. Apply for a visa. Wait in-line.
Just like everything else the politicians do, they will time this.
Which means, I don't see this coming up before Nov., 2014 elections.
Obama has no more election worries, so it's no holds barred after that. But, I don't see it this year.
DaisyJane
Quote from: DaisyJane on April 19, 2014, 04:43:51 PM
Just like everything else the politicians do, they will time this.
Which means, I don't see this coming up before Nov., 2014 elections.
Obama has no more election worries, so it's no holds barred after that. But, I don't see it this year.
DaisyJane
It's the same thing every cycle. it's not getting done.
Quote from: Michelangelo on April 18, 2014, 10:14:51 AM
Hello there everyone. I'm a long time lurker of these forums but first time poster.
Let's see how this goes...
Quote
@keyboarder
I share your sentiment regarding the 2012 presidential elections, it was very disappointing to see how healthcare reform was given more emphasize by the candidates than the state of the economy.
Incorrect. There was nothing involving health care reform in 2012. You are attempting to refer to the ACA scam that influences those with a semi-permeable intellectual filter to reference it as "healthcare reform". There was nothing involving health care, and nothing about reform. I understand you are young, but that is not an excuse to no think.
Quote
Then again, political candidates aren't known for their knowledge of economics and if they had any prolonged discussion on the topic it would quickly become clear just how ignorant they are of the field.
I disagree with you however when you imply that immigrants, lawful or unlawful, are taking the jobs of natives. This simply isn't true. Migrants increase both the supply and demand for labor; in order words they both take and create jobs. Due to the United States' large population size migrants have a relatively small positive effect on the labor market. They don't create as many jobs as migration did when the United States' population was smaller, but their effect is still a net positive for job growth.
Wrong. Swing and miss.
Quote
Also I must disagree with you on this perception that migrants do not assimilate to American culture. It is true that first generation migrants tend to speak perpetual broken English, but this isn't due to a lack of trying. Languages are best learned when one is young and the brain is a metaphorical sponge. One can try to learn a new language later in life, but only a rare few are capable of becoming fluent at the same level as natives. What is more important is the language acquisition skills of 2nd and 3rd generation migrant descendants. Research on this area has shown that in these latter generations that English becomes the dominant language and that knowledge original language (Spanish in this case) is lost correspondingly.
Steeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerike twooooooo... They have no care for assimilating into our culture, and in fact, bring their 3rd world problems and diseases with them. Forget about trying to learn English as an adult; how about they start with learning to put the toilet paper in the toilet and flush, instead of tossing in the waste basket? Can they learn that as an adult?
Quote
Contrary to popular belief, migrants today are actually assimilating to use of the English language at a faster rate than earlier migrant waves to the United States. Germans in particular, who first began migrating during the colonial era, continued the use of their language well into the 20th century. Pockets of Texas spoke a german dialect predominantly until WW2. Pennsylvania Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Dutch), a germanic language, is still spoken among the Amish and similar sub-groups several hundred years after they first migrated to the United States.
So they can't speak their own language of Spanish, but are picking up English at a nice clip.
If you are trying to be wrong, then you're doing a great job.
Quote
Two final notes. Migrants actually make things such as transportation infrastructure since they reduce the marginal amount each tax payer must pay to fund roads and transit.
I thought your English point above was the stupidest thing I'd hear all day. You just beat it.
Quote
Secondly, as a student of Economics,
You're not a student. You are a trained parrot.
Quote
I take great offense to how desire for 'money' is being looked upon here. The desire for money is itself not sinful. Furthermore the desire for money should be put into context; very few individuals desire money for its own sake. The desire for money is really the desire for the goods and services that money can command. This includes paying for both our own living costs and the living costs of our families. Surely no one here believes it wrong to want to support your family?
This is strike 7.... maybe t-ball isn't your sport.
Quote from: taxed on April 20, 2014, 08:19:32 AM
Let's see how this goes...
Incorrect. There was nothing involving health care reform in 2012. You are attempting to refer to the ACA scam that influences those with a semi-permeable intellectual filter to reference it as "healthcare reform". There was nothing involving health care, and nothing about reform. I understand you are young, but that is not an excuse to no think.
Wrong. Swing and miss.
Steeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerike twooooooo... They have no care for assimilating into our culture, and in fact, bring their 3rd world problems and diseases with them. Forget about trying to learn English as an adult; how about they start with learning to put the toilet paper in the toilet and flush, instead of tossing in the waste basket? Can they learn that as an adult?
So they can't speak their own language of Spanish, but are picking up English at a nice clip.
If you are trying to be wrong, then you're doing a great job.
I thought your English point above was the stupidest thing I'd hear all day. You just beat it.
You're not a student. You are a trained parrot.
This is strike 7.... maybe t-ball isn't your sport.
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Michelangelo I think one of the most important things I learned in graduate school was that graduate students always think they have the answer. Even when they do now know what they are talking about they believe they have the wisdom to see through every problem. That was over 30 years ago and while you may not understand what I am saying I think that 30 years from now you will.
There is no way that you could say that immigrants do not take ANY jobs that citizens would have taken. I am talking illegal immigrants. Clearly a graduate economists understands what happens when you have an over abundance of supply. I am not trying to sound like your comments are all wrong as much as I am suggesting that real world experience needs to be learned in places other than a text book or classroom. I hold a graduate degree but I am not embarrassed to say that I have been given some great advice and approaches to problems by people that worked for me at the lowest levels. Theory and calculations are important but where the rubber hits the road often changes the whole plan.
What Boener is doing is strictly intended to increase the hold he has on to power. All these theory's about how it is good for this country is absolute rubbish. Now legal immigrants that bring skills and knowledge is another thing.
I think where our society has gone off the tracks is when it began to believe that you can have it all and that no one needs to experience anything negative. This concept is wrong in so many ways that if you need an explanation you probably are programed to believe that what I would say is BS.
Competition is good and moves our society ahead and for it truly to be a competition, someone has to win and someone loses. If you force the winners to drag the losers with them or their rewards are no better than those who lose even if they lose because of lack of effort the winners will stop trying so hard.
Quote from: raptor5618 on April 21, 2014, 11:24:14 AM
Competition is good and moves our society ahead and for it truly to be a competition, someone has to win and someone loses. If you force the winners to drag the losers with them or their rewards are no better than those who lose even if they lose because of lack of effort the winners will stop trying so hard.
Trust me you don't have to go to college to learn this. You should know it before getting out of high school or even before high school.
Quote from: taxed on April 20, 2014, 08:19:32 AM
Let's see how this goes...
Incorrect. There was nothing involving health care reform in 2012. You are attempting to refer to the ACA scam that influences those with a semi-permeable intellectual filter to reference it as "healthcare reform". There was nothing involving health care, and nothing about reform. I understand you are young, but that is not an excuse to no think.
Wrong. Swing and miss.
Steeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerike twooooooo... They have no care for assimilating into our culture, and in fact, bring their 3rd world problems and diseases with them. Forget about trying to learn English as an adult; how about they start with learning to put the toilet paper in the toilet and flush, instead of tossing in the waste basket? Can they learn that as an adult?
So they can't speak their own language of Spanish, but are picking up English at a nice clip.
If you are trying to be wrong, then you're doing a great job.
I thought your English point above was the stupidest thing I'd hear all day. You just beat it.
You're not a student. You are a trained parrot.
This is strike 7.... maybe t-ball isn't your sport.
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Quote from: The Boo Man... on April 21, 2014, 03:54:01 PM
ROTFLMAF.... Sorry Ladies!
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Quote from: taxed on April 20, 2014, 08:19:32 AM
Let's see how this goes...
Incorrect. There was nothing involving health care reform in 2012. You are attempting to refer to the ACA scam that influences those with a semi-permeable intellectual filter to reference it as "healthcare reform". There was nothing involving health care, and nothing about reform. I understand you are young, but that is not an excuse to no think.
Wrong. Swing and miss.
For the sake of having a civil conversation I am willing to forgive you for suggesting I am a trained parrot. I have grown a thick skin when it comes to being criticized for being a student. I am not however willing to forgive you for implying for a single moment that I'm a filthy progressive who believes the 'Affordable Healthcare Act' was positive healthcare reform. If you want to have a semantics debate I'd argue that you using the official designation is little better than me referring to it as the healthcare reform.
When you use ACA do you mean to imply that you believe the law made healthcare affordable? I suspect not. I suspect you used it as a term of convenience.
Similarly I use 'healthcare reform' as a term of convenience and by no mean imply that I believe that travesty reforms things for the better. I hope you would understand that point by the context in which I brought it up and the fact that I am lurking here, but evidently you must have poor reading comprehension.
Okay that might be too mean. I am sure you have adequate reading comprehension, but I am still not pleased by your implication there. Please do try to be more careful in the future okay? It only serves to antagonize people.
Quote
Steeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerike twooooooo... They have no care for assimilating into our culture, and in fact, bring their 3rd world problems and diseases with them. Forget about trying to learn English as an adult; how about they start with learning to put the toilet paper in the toilet and flush, instead of tossing in the waste basket? Can they learn that as an adult?
Did you read the report I linked? Hispanics and other contemporary migrants are assimilating and they are assimilating more quickly than previous migrant groups. This isn't because they are better capable of assimilating than previous migrants; the United States simply has gained 'knowledge capital' on how to assimilate migrant groups. Unfortunately migration waves occur in such prolonged spans of time that most of us only live to see part of a wave and mistakenly fall to the myth that past migrants assimilated faster or that migrants are incapable of assimilating.
Looking at the long term picture shows that migrants do assimilate and that they are assimilating at increasing rates.
Quote
So they can't speak their own language of Spanish, but are picking up English at a nice clip.
If you are trying to be wrong, then you're doing a great job.
I thought your English point above was the stupidest thing I'd hear all day. You just beat it.
You're not a student. You are a trained parrot.
The children and the grandchildren of migrants are learning English, yes. Looking at the 2nd and 3rd generation migrant population is what matters as it shows us what is occurring in the long run.
Migrants themselves rarely become fluent in English. This isn't because they are mentally retarded, this isn't because they come from a culture that doesn't value education, or anything silly like that. Learning a language is simply difficult to do and the human mind best learns languages in the first few years of life. This is why I find it humorous that the state education system doesn't bother teaching a second language until someone has left the golden years for education. Then again, what can we expect from state education?
QuoteMichelangelo I think one of the most important things I learned in graduate school was that graduate students always think they have the answer. Even when they do now know what they are talking about they believe they have the wisdom to see through every problem. That was over 30 years ago and while you may not understand what I am saying I think that 30 years from now you will.
I appreciate your advice, however I must inform you that I am making no claim that I know 'the answer'. I am fully aware of the limitations of my knowledge. I am not sure how things were when you were in school, but I like to think that students today know full well that they can only hope to know a small portion of humanity's collective knowledge.
It just so happens that immigration is an area where I feel more than adequate speaking on. If you need a citation for anything I claim here I am more than happy to provide it. I would just throw links en mass to academic papers, but I know most of it won't be read if I did so.
QuoteThere is no way that you could say that immigrants do not take ANY jobs that citizens would have taken. I am talking illegal immigrants. Clearly a graduate economists understands what happens when you have an over abundance of supply. I am not trying to sound like your comments are all wrong as much as I am suggesting that real world experience needs to be learned in places other than a text book or classroom. I hold a graduate degree but I am not embarrassed to say that I have been given some great advice and approaches to problems by people that worked for me at the lowest levels. Theory and calculations are important but where the rubber hits the road often changes the whole plan.
Again, I appreciate your comments but I disagree with them. My knowledge of this issue is complemented by my academic background but it is by no means my only connection with the subject. I do not know how things were in your days, but here too I like to think that modern students do not limit themselves to the ivory tower. Many of us actively go out to see what people are saying about the subject on the outside. I wouldn't be here otherwise would I?
As for your other comment, I think you misunderstand me. There are certainly jobs that migrants get that natives would have wanted. However the fact that the migrant got this job means that they are better capable of getting the job done, given the willingness of the employer to pay a certain amount for it to be done. This is okay. The number of jobs are not finite. Indeed, the fact that the job is now being performed by someone better capable of performing it means that society as a whole is richer and capable of creating additional jobs. Immigration allows natives to gravitate towards those jobs they are best suited to. If you ever took a course in Economics, which really should be taught alongside civics at primary schools but I digress, you would understand I am referring to Ricardo's law of association/the theory of comparative advantage.
Furthermore I fear the supply-demand model is regularly abused on this issue. Yes, immigration increases the supply of labor. It also increases the demand for labor though. In the United States the shift on both sides more or less even out and immigration's effect on the labor market is insignificant or positive. David Card, UC Berkeley Economics Professor and one of the leading authorities on the economics of immigration, has plenty of articles on this issue in his personal site for those interested. (http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers.html#2)
There is also a youtube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xicM0kPA6uw) by Card for those who don't like reading academic papers. I don't blame you if you prefer the youtube video; I don't think anyone in academia likes reading academic literature either but that is another digression.
P.S. For full disclosure I am a second generation immigrant. Needless to say this a deeply personal issue for me, not only because I am a migrant but because I am a conservative. When not studying I am actively trying to spread the cause among the migrant community.
It saddens me how migrants are portrayed as being inclined towards the welfare state and progressivism. They aren't. To the contrary they value liberty and the value of the US in a way that few natives can. To be frank, it is funny how Obama is portrayed as a tyrant. By all means he is an idiot and how he got elected twice I'll never know, but a tyrant he is not. The true tyrants of the world are men like Putin in Russia, the Castro brothers in Cuba, or Chavez and his legacy in Venezuela. Obama is scary because he resembles these men, but he is still restrained compared to what a true tyrant is. For all its troubles the United States is still a lonely light in a dark world of tyranny. It on occasion flickers, but it is still the only light out there. You don't have to convince migrants of this - they left their past to come here and try to capture a bit of that light for themselves and their children. Immigration is not done on a whim.
Many migrants are poorly educated, but this is not their fault. They did not have access to the services that US natives did. No one wants to be poorly educated, but they had no choice. On occasion they will support a policy because they have been tricked into doing so - but they do not actively seek to do harm to the US. The conservative movement could easily capture their support if we could package our message for them.
But it is extremely difficult to do so when we advocate anti-migrant messages. Can any of you imagine supporting Bush or McCain when the rest of your community were rooting for Kerry/Hilary/Obama/etc.? "How can you support a Republican? Don't you know they hate you?". Do any of you have any idea how embedded Democrats are in migrant communities solely because of this issue?
I am not here to troll. I am not here to try to reason here that we can adopt a more migrant friendly message that will let us fight the Democrats on equal footing with the migrant community.
Quote from: Michelangelo on April 21, 2014, 09:30:35 PM
For the sake of having a civil conversation I am willing to forgive you for suggesting I am a trained parrot. I have grown a thick skin when it comes to being criticized for being a student. I am not however willing to forgive you for implying for a single moment that I'm a filthy progressive who believes the 'Affordable Healthcare Act' was positive healthcare reform. If you want to have a semantics debate I'd argue that you using the official designation is little better than me referring to it as the healthcare reform.
The fact that you call it "healthcare reform" shows how clueless you are.
Quote
When you use ACA do you mean to imply that you believe the law made healthcare affordable? I suspect not. I suspect you used it as a term of convenience.
Take note of the word I placed right after "ACA". Second, ACA is the name of the legislation. Not sure if you were told that or not.
Quote
Similarly I use 'healthcare reform' as a term of convenience and by no mean imply that I believe that travesty reforms things for the better. I hope you would understand that point by the context in which I brought it up and the fact that I am lurking here, but evidently you must have poor reading comprehension.
Okay that might be too mean. I am sure you have adequate reading comprehension, but I am still not pleased by your implication there. Please do try to be more careful in the future okay? It only serves to antagonize people.
Don't come here an parrot. This isn't your local Starbucks.
Quote
Did you read the report I linked? Hispanics and other contemporary migrants are assimilating and they are assimilating more quickly than previous migrant groups. This isn't because they are better capable of assimilating than previous migrants; the United States simply has gained 'knowledge capital' on how to assimilate migrant groups. Unfortunately migration waves occur in such prolonged spans of time that most of us only live to see part of a wave and mistakenly fall to the myth that past migrants assimilated faster or that migrants are incapable of assimilating.
Wrong.
Quote
Looking at the long term picture shows that migrants do assimilate and that they are assimilating at increasing rates.
Wrong.
Quote
The children and the grandchildren of migrants are learning English, yes. Looking at the 2nd and 3rd generation migrant population is what matters as it shows us what is occurring in the long run.
Migrants themselves rarely become fluent in English. This isn't because they are mentally retarded, this isn't because they come from a culture that doesn't value education, or anything silly like that. Learning a language is simply difficult to do and the human mind best learns languages in the first few years of life. This is why I find it humorous that the state education system doesn't bother teaching a second language until someone has left the golden years for education. Then again, what can we expect from state education?
You're demonstrating it.
Quote
I appreciate your advice, however I must inform you that I am making no claim that I know 'the answer'. I am fully aware of the limitations of my knowledge. I am not sure how things were when you were in school, but I like to think that students today know full well that they can only hope to know a small portion of humanity's collective knowledge.
It just so happens that immigration is an area where I feel more than adequate speaking on. If you need a citation for anything I claim here I am more than happy to provide it. I would just throw links en mass to academic papers, but I know most of it won't be read if I did so.
Doesn't seem like it.
Quote
Again, I appreciate your comments but I disagree with them. My knowledge of this issue is complemented by my academic background but it is by no means my only connection with the subject. I do not know how things were in your days, but here too I like to think that modern students do not limit themselves to the ivory tower. Many of us actively go out to see what people are saying about the subject on the outside. I wouldn't be here otherwise would I?
As for your other comment, I think you misunderstand me. There are certainly jobs that migrants get that natives would have wanted. However the fact that the migrant got this job means that they are better capable of getting the job done, given the willingness of the employer to pay a certain amount for it to be done. This is okay. The number of jobs are not finite. Indeed, the fact that the job is now being performed by someone better capable of performing it means that society as a whole is richer and capable of creating additional jobs. Immigration allows natives to gravitate towards those jobs they are best suited to. If you ever took a course in Economics, which really should be taught alongside civics at primary schools but I digress, you would understand I am referring to Ricardo's law of association/the theory of comparative advantage.
You know nothing about economics.
Quote
Furthermore I fear the supply-demand model is regularly abused on this issue. Yes, immigration increases the supply of labor. It also increases the demand for labor though. In the United States the shift on both sides more or less even out and immigration's effect on the labor market is insignificant or positive. David Card, UC Berkeley Economics Professor and one of the leading authorities on the economics of immigration, has plenty of articles on this issue in his personal site for those interested. (http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers.html#2)
There is also a youtube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xicM0kPA6uw) by Card for those who don't like reading academic papers. I don't blame you if you prefer the youtube video; I don't think anyone in academia likes reading academic literature either but that is another digression.
David Card is a complete moron. It makes sense that you would parrot someone like that. Try thinking. You might like it.
Quote
P.S. For full disclosure I am a second generation immigrant. Needless to say this a deeply personal issue for me, not only because I am a migrant but because I am a conservative. When not studying I am actively trying to spread the cause among the migrant community.
Nobody cares.
Quote
It saddens me how migrants are portrayed as being inclined towards the welfare state and progressivism. They aren't. To the contrary they value liberty and the value of the US in a way that few natives can. To be frank, it is funny how Obama is portrayed as a tyrant. By all means he is an idiot and how he got elected twice I'll never know, but a tyrant he is not. The true tyrants of the world are men like Putin in Russia, the Castro brothers in Cuba, or Chavez and his legacy in Venezuela. Obama is scary because he resembles these men, but he is still restrained compared to what a true tyrant is. For all its troubles the United States is still a lonely light in a dark world of tyranny. It on occasion flickers, but it is still the only light out there. You don't have to convince migrants of this - they left their past to come here and try to capture a bit of that light for themselves and their children. Immigration is not done on a whim.
Many migrants are poorly educated, but this is not their fault. They did not have access to the services that US natives did. No one wants to be poorly educated, but they had no choice. On occasion they will support a policy because they have been tricked into doing so - but they do not actively seek to do harm to the US. The conservative movement could easily capture their support if we could package our message for them.
Quit making excuses for stupid people. The US school system makes kids, like yourself, equally as stupid as a 3rd world immigrant. Again, try thinking and learning.
Quote
But it is extremely difficult to do so when we advocate anti-migrant messages.
Nobody is preaching an anti-immigrant message. That's what idiots, like your professors and David Card, think, and you run around and parrot it like a good little troll.
Quote
Can any of you imagine supporting Bush or McCain when the rest of your community were rooting for Kerry/Hilary/Obama/etc.? "How can you support a Republican? Don't you know they hate you?". Do any of you have any idea how embedded Democrats are in migrant communities solely because of this issue?
I am not here to troll. I am not here to try to reason here that we can adopt a more migrant friendly message that will let us fight the Democrats on equal footing with the migrant community.
Too late.
I am going to jump in here briefly to simply say there is nothing, nothing in the ACA that addresses any concerns regarding health care. The entire law is devoted to health insurance. Anyone who does not know this at this point should not be discussing it at all.
Carry on.
Quote from: The Boo Man... on April 21, 2014, 11:58:23 PM
I am going to jump in here briefly to simply say there is nothing, nothing in the ACA that addresses any concerns regarding health care. The entire law is devoted to health insurance. Anyone who does not know this at this point should not be discussing it at all.
Carry on.
Exactly! It never had a thing to do with peoples health, and everything to do with 'Govt' control over an industry, Nationalism, which is why I lovingly refer to it as Commiecare.
None of my claims have been rebuked. Saying 'wrong' or going for personal attacks are not valid argumentative tactics. You believe Card, one of the leading economists alive is wrong? But you don't feel the need to elaborate why he is wrong? A personal attack on him doesn't count.
I'm on your side. I want conservatism to win, but it will not do so if it continues to side with the anti-migrant crowd. I urge those sincerely interested in these issues to read the links I have provided. One can be a consistent conservative and support greater immigration and better treatment of current migrants. Indeed, I believe consistent conservatism to require a defense of migrants.
There are those in the migrant community such as myself who are conservative and wish to work alongside you all. We are in this country for a reason. We love America and its value. We love free markets. We love family values. We love liberty. We are for all intents and purposes Americans, we must have simply been born outside the US due to a clerical error. I suppose not even the Kingdom of Heaven is free of incompetent civil servants!
You'll probably just ignore me or do another 'wrong!' attack without actually addressing me. That is okay. I know you won't change your minds in one thread. I hope you all come around one day. I won't pretend there won't be resentment at first, but when you ready to change your mind on this issue we will be more than happy to fight alongisde you for our country's future.
Good bye and God bless you all. I'll go back to lurking now.
Quote from: Michelangelo on April 22, 2014, 01:34:22 PM
None of my David Card's claims have been rebuked.
Fixed it, parrot.
Quote
Saying 'wrong' or going for personal attacks are not valid argumentative tactics.
Parroting idiocy is not debate or discussion. When you bring some intellect to the table, then we'll go that route.
Quote
You believe Card, one of the leading economists alive is wrong? But you don't feel the need to elaborate why he is wrong? A personal attack on him doesn't count.
I don't think he's an economist, or leading anything. I think he is a great parrot trainer, but not much more beyond that. He certainly doesn't have my level of experience, so I might as well read some manifesto written by a third grader.
Quote
I'm on your side. I want conservatism to win, but it will not do so if it continues to side with the anti-migrant crowd.
I'm not anti-migrant. That's just more liberal idiocy you've been spoonfed.
Quote
I urge those sincerely interested in these issues to read the links I have provided. One can be a consistent conservative and support greater immigration and better treatment of current migrants. Indeed, I believe consistent conservatism to require a defense of migrants.
He brings no intellect to the table. Post someone who writes intelligent things.
Quote
There are those in the migrant community such as myself who are conservative and wish to work alongside you all. We are in this country for a reason. We love America and its value. We love free markets. We love family values. We love liberty. We are for all intents and purposes Americans, we must have simply been born outside the US due to a clerical error. I suppose not even the Kingdom of Heaven is free of incompetent civil servants!
No. You're here because your mom pooped you out on American soil. You also need to learn some basic economics. Badly.
Quote
You'll probably just ignore me or do another 'wrong!' attack without actually addressing me. That is okay. I know you won't change your minds in one thread. I hope you all come around one day. I won't pretend there won't be resentment at first, but when you ready to change your mind on this issue we will be more than happy to fight alongisde you for our country's future.
You can't change our minds by posting liberal idiocy.
Quote
Good bye and God bless you all. I'll go back to lurking now.
That's the smartest idea you've had!
Quote from: The Boo Man... on April 21, 2014, 11:58:23 PM
I am going to jump in here briefly to simply say there is nothing, nothing in the ACA that addresses any concerns regarding health care. The entire law is devoted to health insurance. Anyone who does not know this at this point should not be discussing it at all.
Carry on.
Exactly. To use it in the context of anything health care related is ridiculous.
Quote from: taxed on April 22, 2014, 02:53:31 PM
QuoteGood bye and God bless you all. I'll go back to lurking now.
You can't change our minds by posting liberal idiocy.
That's the smartest idea you've had!
This sounds more like if you don't think my way. I am going to take my ball home until you come around to my way of thinking.
Quote from: walkstall on April 22, 2014, 03:12:53 PM
You can't change our minds by posting liberal idiocy.
That's the smartest idea you've had!
This sounds more like if you don't think my way. I am going to take my ball home until you come around to my way of thinking.
He's not the brightest bulb in the drawer.
Quote from: taxed on April 22, 2014, 03:15:56 PM
He's not the brightest bulb in the drawer.
Well he did say he was A Twenty Something Economics Grad Student. :rolleyes:
I have over 65 years of hard knocks economics and I am still learning even after 65 years of working. :lol: I have learned don't trust the government do not put all your eggs in one basket and at my age to life like there is no tomorrow.
Quote from: walkstall on April 22, 2014, 03:49:49 PM
Well he did say he was A Twenty Something Economics Grad Student. :rolleyes:
That explains why he doesn't know anything...
Quote
I have over 65 years of hard knocks economics and I am still learning even after 65 years of working. :lol: I have learned don't trust the government do not put all your eggs in one basket and at my age to life like there is no tomorrow.
If you understand that, you pretty much understand it all!
And with that Michaelangelo left the forum with his head held high and his feet held higher...
Quote from: The Boo Man... on April 22, 2014, 03:53:25 PM
And with that Michaelangelo left the forum with his head held high and his feet held higher...
They're adorable at this age.