America decided too long ago to work a little socialism into the mix, with SS, welfare, unemployment, disability, and so on.  And to address past wrongs on the taxpayer dime, with things like AA / EEO.

We won't be able to get back to 1850 no matter what, so all we can hope for is mostly conservatism with those things to remain as a small burden on our success and wealth.

We CAN stop the growth and hopefully sunset something someday, but no, no 1850 anytime soon.

Quote from: AndyJackson on August 11, 2013, 02:37:53 PM
America decided too long ago to work a little socialism into the mix, with SS, welfare, unemployment, disability, and so on.  And to address past wrongs on the taxpayer dime, with things like AA / EEO.

We won't be able to get back to 1850 no matter what, so all we can hope for is mostly conservatism with those things to remain as a small burden on our success and wealth.

We CAN stop the growth and hopefully sunset something someday, but no, no 1850 anytime soon.

At the risk of exposing my lack of knowledge on certain things, after observing Obama's handiwork, I can't help but wonder if the Depression was intentionally orchestrated by the democrat party, with the New Deal preconceived beforehand...setting the groundwork for generations of government dependents.

It makes sense. Without victims, the democrat party would have been gone a long time ago. They last thing they want, is a nation of hard working, self reliant people.

Quote from: Solar on August 11, 2013, 01:18:25 PM
More nonsense, and you're right, a Masters means nothing.
As a retired defense contractor, I have a good understanding of the leach symbiotic relationship between Govt and the people, many rely on this leach kinship for their livelihood, and as unconstitutional as most of it is, it's part of our business culture now, and to end it over night is pure suicide.
You do know that even those that have absolutely nothing to do with Govt are also suppliers to those that are, it has a long reach into our business community.
Did you learn nothing in your college pursuit towards your masters?

You simply can't reverse 200 years of culture over night and expect people to just move on, then there is the issue of a weakened America in the eyes of our enemies, our soldiers worried about family and friends back home struggling for a daily meal, a return to soup lines supplied by churches, since Federal help is out of the question.

Your approach is beyond stupid, it's freakin crazy, not one economist anywhere would ever agree that starting over from scratch would work.

Just try and put yourself in the place of an unemployable person due to disability, now multiply that by millions, because that's what the country would look like, a crippled mess of unemployabe, many of those currently employed only know Govt work.
Do you think these people won't go down without a fight? Of course they won't, they will survive anyway they can, whether it's simple theft, to murder, the country would be in total turmoil.
Remember our enemies? They will see this as an opportunity as well.

Take off the rose colored glasses, your Utopia would never survive beyond a week, no different than a nuclear attack.

Again, who said cutting government suppliers?  More nonsense stawmen, which is what your argument consists of.   

What i am referring to is the government organizations (GO's) that have no business in existence,  Everything from the EPA, FDA, ATF and othes, to a DOJ that applies itself primarily occupies itself with a a redundancy of laws to the states that were and applied to private industry and indviduals that were never allowed under the Constitution in the first place - with hate crimes,  and involving various militarized aspects of of the federal government imposing them, such as hate crimes, or  kids being unable to accept a common dress code in schools or else it becomes a "freedom of speech" issue, and a whole array of things that are extraordinarily asinine, not to mention an intrusion.  Do we really need any army of FDA individuals to pursue single farmers that are lawfully producting non-pasteurized cheese or milk, or to prosecute Amish under federal hate crime lesgislation, and put them into federal prision for decades, for having cut the hair or beards of other Amish?   Do we really need the Department of Agriculture, as well as range of other departments, running mortgage programs? This is just one of the ways we got government leeches like Shirley Sherrod, who won a lawsuit for her black farming group against the Dept of Ag for not giving them loans, the government settled out of court giving that groups miliions of dollars, and then the guy she sued by name Tom Vilsack, gave her a job in the Dept of Agriculture, and she shot her mouth off with racism there too.

The EPA does this same  fake court hearing game in which they rollover for the environmentalists too.  And we saw the same thing done with regard to DOMA, involving another kangaroo court hearing intended only for the corrupt court to make a decision in favor of more social engineering by the government!

The States cannot do these things under existing legislation, really?   

ANd before you start off on another tangent, what might be necessary, then the States themselves can take up the slack, and do so with money they're not sending to the federal government.   Ya know, that "States Rights" but without the states actually denying those individual rights of citizens.

Yes the military contracts are,generally necessary, but then I never mentioned cutting them, and there is a provision in the Constitutiion for the military.

This  doesn't provide a license the secret black budgets, and enormous projects that are done contrary to the freedom of the American people, but revolve entirely around catering to government at the expense of the people, and have resulted in the creation of an untouchable criminal government-business class that even various Presidents have warned about, and in all likelihood some were assassinated by.

Your mentality involves the acceptance of a whole range of criminality and tyranny that is unacceptable and should be outrageous to each and every American citizen.

Quote from: Trip on August 11, 2013, 02:59:27 PM
Again, who said cutting government suppliers?  More nonsense stawmen, which is what your argument consists of.   

What i am referring to is the government organizations (GO's) that have no business in existence,  Everything from the EPA, FDA, ATF and othes, to a DOJ that applies itself primarily occupies itself with a a redundancy of laws to the states that were and applied to private industry and indviduals that were never allowed under the Constitution in the first place - with hate crimes,  and involving various militarized aspects of of the federal government imposing them, such as hate crimes, or  kids being unable to accept a common dress code in schools or else it becomes a "freedom of speech" issue, and a whole array of things that are extraordinarily asinine, not to mention an intrusion.  Do we really need any army of FDA individuals to pursue single farmers that are lawfully producting non-pasteurized cheese or milk, or to prosecute Amish under federal hate crime lesgislation, and put them into federal prision for decades, for having cut the hair or beards of other Amish?  The States cannot do that under existing legislation, really?   

ANd before you start off on another tangent, what might be necessary, then the States themselves can take up the slack, and do so with money they're not sending to the federal government.   Ya know, that "States Rights" but without the states actually denying those individual rights of citizens.

Yes the military contracts are,generally necessary, but then I never mentioned cutting them, and there is a provision in the Constitutiion for the military.

This  doesn't provide a license the secret black budgets, and enormous projects that are done contrary to the freedom of the American people, but revolve entirely around catering to government at the expense of the people, and have resulted in the creation of an untouchable criminal government-business class that even various Presidents have warned about, and in all likelihood some were assassinated by.

Your mentality involves the acceptance of a whole range of criminality and tyranny that is unacceptable and should be outrageous to each and every American citizen.

What they have done to the Amish people should have the entire country outraged.

Between the haircuts, and the destruction of the dairy...those alone are proof of an illegitimate government.

Of course, I thought this administration was finished with fast & furious. They were arming the criminal drug cartels, without one iota of tracking the arms. They were actively aiding and abetting criminals...and the country gave a collective yawn when Obama made the questions stop.

Quote from: kramarat on August 11, 2013, 03:12:11 PM
What they have done to the Amish people should have the entire country outraged.

Between the haircuts, and the destruction of the dairy...those alone are proof of an illegitimate government.

Yes, it should, and they only did it by corruption of the "interstate commerce" clause, which was never meant to involve things done in the States, and only the tariffs applied by the States themselves to the traffic of goods, but that's just the tip of the iceberg.

For instance, we don't need the Department of Agriculture, as well as range of other departments, running their own specialized mortgage programs, in addition to the corruptions run by overt government programs that are themselves corrupt.   

This corruption is just one of the ways we got government leeches like Shirley Sherrod in a comfy position with government complicity, and a corrupt out-of-court decision with American taxpayer money in her pocket. You all might remember Shirley Sherrod for her racist commentary in front of the NAACP, and Dept of Agriculture employee for her incendiary statements made at a public speech that had the whole nation debating her words.

Sherrod originally began her government career by winning a lawsuit for her black farming group against the Dept of Ag for not giving them loans. The government settled out of court giving that group millions of dollars, and then the guy Sherrod sued by name, Tom Vilsack, gave Sherrod a job in the Dept of Agriculture (more than strange), only to have her shoot off her mouth off with racist comments to the NAACP.   

Shirley Sherrod was eventually fired by the Obama Admin, but not because of her comments, but rather so that she wouldn't become an issue and that administration would get mud on its face.  They didn't want any in the media digging into how Shirley Sherrod got there in the first place, and the trumped-up, corrupt court decision that was involved.

The EPA does this same  fake court hearing game in which they rollover for the environmentalists too.  And we saw the same thing done with regard to DOMA, involving another kangaroo court hearing, that the Court didn't have any authority to hear;   and ObamaCare being an example that we will probably never know the Truth regarding, with the last minute flip-ruling by Roberts about a government dictate literally overthrowing the Constitution, and making people subservient to that government, even owned by it, which no Court could support with any legitmacy.  All of these and more have the common ground of a corrupt court making illegitimate yet binding decisions in favor of more social engineering by the government!

This goes on all over the place in government, and the American people are not only paying for those who profit from this,  paying for a whole array of criminal enterprises, but paying literally and figuratively for the corruption of our legal system, the theft of money from a free economy, and the deterioration of their own freedom and way of life.

So how do you get people to understand that they would be FAR better off without all of this government involvement. Most people think this abuse is rare and it never touches them, so they don't care. They think the personal benefits of a big government far outweigh the occasional abuse.

Quote from: Trip on August 11, 2013, 03:38:44 PM
Yes, it should, and they only did it by corruption of the "interstate commerce" clause, which was never meant to involve things done in the States, and only the tariffs applied by the States themselves to the traffic of goods, but that's just the tip of the iceberg.

For instance, we don't need the Department of Agriculture, as well as range of other departments, running their own specialized mortgage programs, in addition to the corruptions run by overt government programs that are themselves corrupt.   

This corruption is just one of the ways we got government leeches like Shirley Sherrod in a comfy position with government complicity, and a corrupt out-of-court decision with American taxpayer money in her pocket. You all might remember Shirley Sherrod for her racist commentary in front of the NAACP, and Dept of Agriculture employee for her incendiary statements made at a public speech that had the whole nation debating her words.

Sherrod originally began her government career by winning a lawsuit for her black farming group against the Dept of Ag for not giving them loans. The government settled out of court giving that group millions of dollars, and then the guy Sherrod sued by name, Tom Vilsack, gave Sherrod a job in the Dept of Agriculture (more than strange), only to have her shoot off her mouth off with racist comments to the NAACP.   

Shirley Sherrod was eventually fired by the Obama Admin, but not because of her comments, but rather so that she wouldn't become an issue and that administration would get mud on its face.  They didn't want any in the media digging into how Shirley Sherrod got there in the first place, and the trumped-up, corrupt court decision that was involved.

The EPA does this same  fake court hearing game in which they rollover for the environmentalists too.  And we saw the same thing done with regard to DOMA, involving another kangaroo court hearing, that the Court didn't have any authority to hear,  and ObamaCare being an example that we will probably never know the Truth regarding withe last minute ruling by Roberts about a government dictate overthrowing the Constitution, and no court could legitimately support.  All of these and more have the common ground of a corrupt court making illegitimate yet binding decisions in favor of more social engineering by the government!

This goes on all over the place in government, and the American people are not only paying for those who profit from this,  paying for a whole array of criminal enterprises, but paying literally and figuratively for the corruption of our legal system, the theft of money from a free economy, and the deterioration of their own freedom and way of life.

You're preaching to the choir here Trip.

The outrage never seems to come. When Biden made his blatantly racist remark, there were nothing but crickets...I couldn't believe it!!!!

When Biden had the audacity to say, in front of a black audience, that republicans wanted to put them back in chains, he was telling them to their faces, that they were too stupid to amount to anything on their own, and that government had a responsibility to take care of them.

They freaking applauded!!!!!
WTF?????

Quote from: kramarat on August 11, 2013, 02:13:35 PM
Unfortunately, I have to agree.

I would love to see a quick return to constitutional government, but the logistics make it impossible...unless I'm missing something.
The victims of the democrat created welfare state, cannot be ignored. They number in the millions, and lack any education, skills, or motivation to become gainfully employed. They have become fully dependent, and not by choice...the democrats have convinced them that they have a right to do absolutely nothing, and be cared for by society.

It's hard to describe how ill this makes me; and the democrats win elections by promising that it will continue forever.

Exactly, I too would love nothing more than to wave a wand and make it all better, but that's just not reality.
Returning our country to saner times will unfortunately take a generation in the least, these people need to be weened off, and simply cutting off their only source of income will be the quickest way to turn them into animals, and proof of this is in mob looting of stores happening today, but imagine crowds in the 1000nds, that's exactly what would happen.

Quote from: Solar on August 11, 2013, 01:18:25 PM

.... I  have a good understanding of the leach symbiotic relationship between Govt and the people, many rely on this leach kinship  ....

You simply can't reverse 200 years of culture over night and expect people to just move on, then there is the issue of a weakened America in the eyes of our enemies, our soldiers worried about family and friends back home struggling for a daily meal, a return to soup lines supplied by churches, since Federal help is out of the question.

<snip>


Your approach is beyond stupid, it's freakin crazy, not one economist anywhere would ever agree that starting over from scratch would work.

Take off the rose colored glasses, your Utopia would never survive beyond a week, no different than a nuclear attack.

I've snipped your post here and there to highlight what can only be recognized as, at minimal, the corrupt voice of the Rublican Progressive establishment, and is virtually inline with the Democrat Progressives.

Basically you start off admitting there is a problem, ....a "leach symbiotic relationsip"..... but you just don't want to fix it.

THen you actually have the audacity to call this "culture",  when it is not culture at all, but rathre our corrupt government corrupting the very direction of society!. We're actually on the verge of our society declaring CO2 to be a pollutant, and imposing this on every aspect of our lives, and the people paid  with their taxes for corrupt environmental scientists to promote this non-science, so that government can limit carbon coal plants, raise the cost of power, kill tens and even  hundreds of millions of  people, both directly and indirectly, and decrease the standard of living of everyone, all to make once free citizens more dependent upon and subservient to government -- without there being ANY environmental threat whatsoever!

But this is "culture", and you don't want to stop the leeches.

The fact is, without that federal 'help', our economy would be more robust, there'd be more jobs,  people would be better educated for those jobs, and we'd actually have something called "freedom", and not just vague reference to a pale and sickly thing once called freedom, now drawing its last breath. 

And those "economists", every single one of them that is actually running on fact, not ideology, agree with me.  Let's start off with a known one, like Milton Friedman, and a whole host of others.   

The only economists that agree with this government-centric economy are Keynesians, and they're the only ones government and media give face-time to nowadays.  The amusing thing is the only thing supporting  Keynesian centralized government perspective is an the entirely arbitrary definition of GDP including government spending, when government output does not create any real production and real industry, and the best it produces is undermine and corrupt the optimized free market Capitalism choices,  decelerating and even halting the real economy.

Once again you've bought into the very ideology provided by the Marxists big-government Socialists and present it as if it were universal reality, in this case regarding "economy". (But don't worry you're not one of them because you call yourself "Conservative")

Then you have the absolute gall to apply gross Orwellian inversion of fact and logic, calling this freedom from government "Utopian" when the reality is that this current lack of freedom came from the Utopian Machiavellian Totalitarian dictate of every aspect of our lives,  by government exceeding its bounds, and resulting in  EVER DECREASING productivity, opportunity, options, lifestyle, and freedoms.   

THEY talk about "sustainability", but none of what government is doing is sustainable, and they're going at a brick wall at Mach1.  And even worse, they know it! They know we're going to have economic collapse, societal collapse, and violent revolution in the streets. And from that revolution, they PLAN to then institute martial law, and dictate the terms of society, abandoning the Constitution entirely.

By allowing their corruptions to continue, and indulging those corruptions as if they were necessary,  you yourself are in fact aiding and abetting the overthrow of this country!  This isn't hyperbole on my part; this is what's going on and the side you've chosen.

Government is now to the point that that it is threatening our lives, not just indirectly by deliberately things such as making the cost of energy "skyrocket",  but also directly by government's own hand! 

THAT isn't AMERICAN! And it sure as hell is not "Conservative"!

Quote from: Trip on August 11, 2013, 02:59:27 PM
EPA, FDA, ATF and othes, to a DOJ

Which is my point, and that's only scratching the surface.
All would have to be eliminated with the exception of the military, all those other support business, an entire industry built around the Govt would collapse over night, and millions would be out of a job.

Look at the Govt contractor website sometime, it pisses me off every time I get a referral for a bid, and see crap like hosting, limousine, services etc.

But I truly wish we could kill 90% of the govt yesterday,  but it's the angry mobs burning business' and all the killing that would take place that makes me say we just can't do it too quickly.

Lets start small, DOE, EPA, IRS (fair tax), cut their budget by 90%, over a two year span and let them work it out, after two years, we simply eliminate them altogether, I think that's a fair compromise.

Quote from: Solar on August 11, 2013, 05:44:50 PM
Which is my point, and that's only scratching the surface.
All would have to be eliminated with the exception of the military, all those other support business, an entire industry built around the Govt would collapse over night, and millions would be out of a job.

Look at the Govt contractor website sometime, it pisses me off every time I get a referral for a bid, and see crap like hosting, limousine, services etc.

But I truly wish we could kill 90% of the govt yesterday,  but it's the angry mobs burning business' and all the killing that would take place that makes me say we just can't do it too quickly.

Lets start small, DOE, EPA, IRS (fair tax), cut their budget by 90%, over a two year span and let them work it out, after two years, we simply eliminate them altogether, I think that's a fair compromise.

Already by this "starting small" you're giving up ground that will soon take is back to where we are right now.   

That "IRS(fair tax)" is dutifully allowing the direct income tax on individuals that is the most pivotal factor in allowing government to engage in agendas.   Apparently you ignored my explanation of that earlier.

Just the switch from progressive income tax, to that "fair tax", will cause the country to go into revolution. The Left won't allow it. Their entire message involves a lack of fairness now, even under the progressive income tax.  Why should we have a violent war over only partial alteration of the tax code, rather than the whole restoration of legitimate government?

You speak of things being "insane", but what's insane is doing the same things again and again and expecting the results to change.

What's the point of closing the barn doors at all, even slightly, if you've already let the cows out and given the prize bull away?

Quote from: Trip on August 11, 2013, 05:50:34 PM
Already by this "starting small" you're giving up ground that will soon take is back to where we are right now.   

That "IRS(fair tax)" is dutifully allowing the direct income tax on individuals that is the most pivotal factor in allowing government to engage in agendas.   Apparently you ignored my explanation of that earlier.

You speak of things being "insane", but what's insane is doing the same things again and again and expecting the results to change.

What's the point of closing the barn doors at all, even slightly, if you've already let the cows out and given the prize bull away?

Okay, lets forget any potential fallout.
Once again...how?

Demands from the public fall on deaf ears, and it seems like most of the public doesn't even care. Government surely isn't going to do it.

I'm not convinced that Obama wouldn't have the planners of such an exercise, simply exterminated. He's had much too much success at undermining the constitution, to just sit back and watch it rear it's ugly head again.

Tell me how it can be done without a clear majority demanding it; otherwise, it's just a theoretical exercise. A neat one to think about though.

Quote from: Trip on August 11, 2013, 05:50:34 PM
Already by this "starting small" you're giving up ground that will soon take is back to where we are right now.   

That "IRS(fair tax)" is dutifully allowing the direct income tax on individuals that is the most pivotal factor in allowing government to engage in agendas.   Apparently you ignored my explanation of that earlier.

Just the switch from progressive income tax, to that "fair tax", will cause the country to go into revolution. The Left won't allow it. Their entire message involves a lack of fairness now, even under the progressive income tax.  Why should we have a violent war over only partial alteration of the tax code, rather than the whole restoration of legitimate government?

You speak of things being "insane", but what's insane is doing the same things again and again and expecting the results to change.

What's the point of closing the barn doors at all, even slightly, if you've already let the cows out and given the prize bull away?

Trip, show me where anyone else supports your grandiose scheme, someone with real credibility.

Quote from: Solar on August 11, 2013, 07:53:24 PM
Trip, show me where anyone else supports your grandiose scheme, someone with real credibility.

The actual application of the U.S. Constitution is a "grandiose scheme"? A scheme?  REALLY?

I thought we hit rock bottom when someone, presumably a member in good standing of this conservative forum,   actually indicated that we have elections on whether or not to "implement" the Constitution.   I could have closed my eyes, and been on any radical liberal forum anywhere on the fruited plain of the Internet.

But now you think the actual application of the Constitution is a "grandiose scheme"?

This is pathetic. This country is done for, and I gotta say some deserve to be nothing but dutiful servants to a despotic government.  This nation's founders put their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honors on the line, taking on the most powerful empire in the world, and did so when they were entitled under law to nothing.  And yet what we get here describes what they blessed this nation with as a "grandiose scheme".   

There's really no other way to recognize that other than it being truly pathetic.

"Don't make waves, that's insane.  Let's just tell them we want a 'fair tax'.  Maybe they'll buy into that",   after these communists regularly pronounce on national media that the existing graduated income tax is grossly unfair.

I'm sure I can find people that think that elections are to determine whatever agenda wins, and "elections have consequences", "what a damn shame, it appears the Constitution lost!  You lost, so quit your whining, but Obama, he's still  a Constitutional expert."    However to find these people one generally does not go to a conservative crew.

I got news for you, there are people all over this country who do know what the constitution is, and what it means, and they do support its continuous "implementation", and they're prepared to lay down their very lives for it.  I'm not alone. I'm not even sure I'm alone on this forum.  But you, you're quite sure you don't want to make any waves to restore the liberty you and your family are guaranteed by that document, and were blessed with that liberty, handed it,  by men that put everything on the line.   But don't worry, you've got backup that these ideals are unwise  from the likes of  Ed Schultz,  Rachel Maddow, and Chris "tingle down my leg and urine colored hair" Matthews,  who  will be shouting how radical this ideology is.

But the fact is this was only radical more than 200 years ago, before that ink was plied to the parchment some revere to this day.

What you won't find is this nation's founders ever indicating that 'elections have consequences", and that the vote is a sacred thing to this Republic!   

I wonder why I cannot find these fucking beliefs anywhere in those founder's prolific writings, not anywhere in the 85 articles and 189,954 words that constitute  Federalist papers!  This  doesn't really matter though, because too many that call themselves Conservatives have not read even one of those articles, and elections are just popularity contests of no consequence,....

...  and we certainly don't want to allow those founders to be tyrants imposing their "grandiose scheme" of individual liberty on our present day!  Let's hold a damn sacred election to see if we implement that old, outdated Constitution those racist bastards gave us ... but if it wins women and blacks don't get to vote, and old people get to eat cat food, and have no health care!




.

Quote from: The Boo Man... on August 11, 2013, 12:07:37 PM
Yep. We're thinking of changing the name to the Trotsky Memorial Forum..

He'd certainly approve of the unreadably long posts lately trying to prove points of little interest to any save the poster. Oi, if I wanted a brain-numbing lecture I'd ask for Newt Gingrich.