Conservative Political Forum

General Category => War Forum => Topic started by: tbone0106 on June 28, 2012, 02:19:27 PM

Title: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: tbone0106 on June 28, 2012, 02:19:27 PM
Here's a hot one, if you'll pardon the pun.

Japan was for all intents and purposes defeated before August 1945. The Japanese Navy no longer existed, and the Japanese Army had nowhere to march to. But the Japanese -- as was their custom -- would not say 'uncle.'

Was there a path to Allied victory without the bomb, or did Hiroshima and Nagasaki have to happen?
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: Solar on June 28, 2012, 02:26:24 PM
Japanese and American historians agree, that more lives were saved on both sides by use of the bomb, as opposed to a prolonged war and I agree.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: walkstall on June 28, 2012, 02:28:30 PM
Quote from: tbone0106 on June 28, 2012, 02:19:27 PM
Here's a hot one, if you'll pardon the pun.

Japan was for all intents and purposes defeated before August 1945. The Japanese Navy no longer existed, and the Japanese Army had nowhere to march to. But the Japanese -- as was their custom -- would not say 'uncle.'

Was there a path to Allied victory without the bomb, or did Hiroshima and Nagasaki have to happen?


There was a plan but that what cost in lives before the plan would work.  Yes it cost the Japanese but the Bomb saved allied lives.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: tbone0106 on June 28, 2012, 02:31:01 PM
Quote from: Solar on June 28, 2012, 02:26:24 PM
Japanese and American historians agree, that more lives were saved on both sides by use of the bomb, as opposed to a prolonged war and I agree.

Ah, but what is the standard by which such things are measured? I don't disagree, but I'm asking -- is that how it's measured? We killed something over 200,000 Japanese people, many of whom had nothing to do with the war, with just two bombs. I'm not saying it was wrong or right, but how do we justify that?
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: Solar on June 28, 2012, 02:35:05 PM
Quote from: tbone0106 on June 28, 2012, 02:31:01 PM
Ah, but what is the standard by which such things are measured? I don't disagree, but I'm asking -- is that how it's measured? We killed something over 200,000 Japanese people, many of whom had nothing to do with the war, with just two bombs. I'm not saying it was wrong or right, but how do we justify that?
Or....we could have dropped 50 thousand fire bombs and done the same with prolonged suffering.
Believe it or not, the bomb was more humane.
Not to mention the fact, that many of us might not be here today had the war continued.

The downside? Japan didn't take Hawaii and the results are a Marxist in the WH. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: tbone0106 on June 28, 2012, 02:37:29 PM
Quote from: Solar on June 28, 2012, 02:35:05 PM
Or....we could have dropped 50 thousand fire bombs and done the same with prolonged suffering.
Believe it or not, the bomb was more humane.
Not to mention the fact, that many of us might not be here today had the war continued.

The downside? Japan didn't take Hawaii and the results are a Marxist in the WH. :rolleyes:

Yeah, right. Now he'd be the boy-emperor of Japan, divinity in a Lexus, holiness on the cheap.  :tounge: :tounge:
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: CubaLibre on June 28, 2012, 10:32:11 PM
WWII was messy and ugly, but an invasion of Japan would have made it even messier and uglier. To the Japanese, seeing their homeland invaded would have made them up their efforts. Think Iraq in 2004.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: Shooterman on June 28, 2012, 11:48:10 PM
Quote from: CubaLibre on June 28, 2012, 10:32:11 PM
WWII was messy and ugly, but an invasion of Japan would have made it even messier and uglier. To the Japanese, seeing their homeland invaded would have made them up their efforts. Think Iraq in 2004.

To up ones efforts, one must also have the means of upping those efforts. They had gone to war to save their routes to raw materials. By the time of the bombs, the homeland of the Japs was basically helpless.

I also believe the use of the bombs was more political than strategic.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: kramarat on June 28, 2012, 11:58:40 PM
Quote from: tbone0106 on June 28, 2012, 02:31:01 PM
Ah, but what is the standard by which such things are measured? I don't disagree, but I'm asking -- is that how it's measured? We killed something over 200,000 Japanese people, many of whom had nothing to do with the war, with just two bombs. I'm not saying it was wrong or right, but how do we justify that?

War is ugly. People die, and the homeland of the people that started the war, is not off limits.

This is our justification:
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/pearl.htm (http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/pearl.htm)
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: Shooterman on June 29, 2012, 01:01:02 AM
Quote from: kramarat on June 28, 2012, 11:58:40 PM
War is ugly. People die, and the homeland of the people that started the war, is not off limits.

Except under the just war theory.

QuoteThis is our justification:
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/pearl.htm (http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/pearl.htm)

Moral relativism is usually preached against by conservatives, Kram, yet we are attributing a strategic strike against military targets with the incineration of 200 thousand Japanese. I have no love lost for the Nips, as they tried their damnedest to kill my Dad. It is even true the bastards were merciless against the peoples of the Western Rim, but I would suggest no more so than we were against the Plains Indians.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: kramarat on June 29, 2012, 01:23:52 AM
Quote from: Shooterman on June 29, 2012, 01:01:02 AM
Except under the just war theory.

Moral relativism is usually preached against by conservatives, Kram, yet we are attributing a strategic strike against military targets with the incineration of 200 thousand Japanese. I have no love lost for the Nips, as they tried their damnedest to kill my Dad. It is even true the bastards were merciless against the peoples of the Western Rim, but I would suggest no more so than we were against the Plains Indians.

I'm not really preaching, but attempting to put myself in the place of the people that made the decision. Sure they attacked military targets,
but we weren't at war with them.

In the years leading up to World War II, Japan became the first power to attack civilians from the air. In 1932, Japanese warplanes bombed a worker district in Shanghai, China, an incident that produced worldwide outrage. The outrage did not stop Japan from bombing civilian areas of other Chinese cities.

Right or wrong, bombing civilian targets had become quite common by the time we dropped the atom bombs.

http://crf-usa.org/america-responds-to-terrorism/firestorms-the-bombing-of-civilians (http://crf-usa.org/america-responds-to-terrorism/firestorms-the-bombing-of-civilians)
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: Solar on June 29, 2012, 01:32:12 AM
Quote from: Shooterman on June 29, 2012, 01:01:02 AM
Except under the just war theory.

Moral relativism is usually preached against by conservatives, Kram, yet we are attributing a strategic strike against military targets with the incineration of 200 thousand Japanese. I have no love lost for the Nips, as they tried their damnedest to kill my Dad. It is even true the bastards were merciless against the peoples of the Western Rim, but I would suggest no more so than we were against the Plains Indians.
Difference being, The Emperor was the religious leader, much in the way muscum follow their leader, this makes the entire population the enemy.
It's also the reason the Emperor was relegated to figurehead. 
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: mdgiles on June 29, 2012, 01:37:24 AM
Quote from: Shooterman on June 28, 2012, 11:48:10 PM
To up ones efforts, one must also have the means of upping those efforts. They had gone to war to save their routes to raw materials. By the time of the bombs, the homeland of the Japs was basically helpless.

I also believe the use of the bombs was more political than strategic.
As Allied troops got closer and closer to Japan, the casualties began to get worse and worse. That was the Japanese plan, to bleed the allies until the negotiated. They had something on the order of 10,000 kamikazes hidden in caves. They would have taken off and flown against an Allied fleet that had to sit there as targets. They had just moved an entire army from Korea to Kyushu. They were teaching women and children suicide tactics - which would have given allied troops no choice except to shoot first and ask questions later. The softening up process before an invasion would have meant the destruction of the Japanese transportation system - which would have meant famine in Japan's cities. What the bombs did was demonstrate the utter helplessness of the Japanese. One bomber, one bomb, one city - and the Japanese knew we had hundreds of bombers, and didn't know how many bombs we had. Whatever the reason for dropping them, dropping the bombs was good sense.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: Shooterman on June 29, 2012, 01:41:25 AM
Quote from: Solar on June 29, 2012, 01:32:12 AM
Difference being, The Emperor was the religious leader, much in the way muscum follow their leader, this makes the entire population the enemy.
It's also the reason the Emperor was relegated to figurehead.

Still not the same, Solar, in my opinion. Hirohito was the boy emperor, but the power really was in the hands of the militarist, mostly the Army that still embraced the old school of the Sumarai. Yamamoto was probably the only sane one in the crowd and he was Navy.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: mdgiles on June 29, 2012, 01:52:46 AM
Understand Hiroshima was the headquarters of the Japanese Army Group charged with the defense of Kyushu. IIRC, the bomb went off over a corner of the headquarters parade ground. Nagasaki was THE major port in Kyushu through which supplies were going to Japanese troops there. If the Japanese militarists felt bad about their people being incinerated, they could have stopped the fighting at any time. I do not understand why the US should feel bad about using every weapon they could lay their hands on, in a war the other guy started. If you don't want the other guy to use every weapon in his arsenal on you, don't start a war with the other guy.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: Solar on June 29, 2012, 02:08:47 AM
Quote from: Shooterman on June 29, 2012, 01:41:25 AM
Still not the same, Solar, in my opinion. Hirohito was the boy emperor, but the power really was in the hands of the militarist, mostly the Army that still embraced the old school of the Sumarai. Yamamoto was probably the only sane one in the crowd and he was Navy.
But it was their undying loyalty to the Emperor that made every civilian a threat.
Giles explained it quite well, they were planning on using children as weapons.
In truth, the Japanese were acting like a caged animal and was willing to sacrifice the very last person in hopes of staying off complete defeat.

The bomb was and always be the right decision.
The second one clinched and proved the point.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: kramarat on June 29, 2012, 02:13:56 AM
It has to be looked at in perspective too.

It's easy to look back, from now, and say how horrible it was to incinerate thousands of civilians........................but that wasn't the thought process that was going on at the time. The thought process was, "Let's end this damned war."

Mission accomplished.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: tbone0106 on June 29, 2012, 02:52:22 AM
At least one history I've read (actually one of the best, but I can't locate it right now) claims that Japan was near surrender without the A-bombs. Their navy had been essentially wiped out and their foreign conquests mostly taken away from them. The US Navy had the islands effectively blockaded, and many Japanese, especially in the cities, were on the edge of starvation. LeMay's B-29s were flying in at will, dropping incendiaries by the planeload and killing as many as 100,000 people in a single raid.

As early as June, the Japanese were talking to the Soviets (with whom they had a neutrality pact) about acting as a mediator for a negotiated surrender. That same month, Hirohito instructed his cabinet ministers to find a way to end the war ASAP. It's not like they thought they still had a shot at winning.

Still, this is 20-20 hindsight, and we certainly didn't know some of these things at the time. Based on what we DID know, dropping the A-bombs was a smart thing to do.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: Solar on June 29, 2012, 03:14:11 AM
Quote from: tbone0106 on June 29, 2012, 02:52:22 AM
At least one history I've read (actually one of the best, but I can't locate it right now) claims that Japan was near surrender without the A-bombs. Their navy had been essentially wiped out and their foreign conquests mostly taken away from them. The US Navy had the islands effectively blockaded, and many Japanese, especially in the cities, were on the edge of starvation. LeMay's B-29s were flying in at will, dropping incendiaries by the planeload and killing as many as 100,000 people in a single raid.

As early as June, the Japanese were talking to the Soviets (with whom they had a neutrality pact) about acting as a mediator for a negotiated surrender. That same month, Hirohito instructed his cabinet ministers to find a way to end the war ASAP. It's not like they thought they still had a shot at winning.

Still, this is 20-20 hindsight, and we certainly didn't know some of these things at the time. Based on what we DID know, dropping the A-bombs was a smart thing to do.
Yet there was no negotiating needed, they surrendered in full under our terms, terms that made them one of the most prosperous nations in the world.

With that said, if they were so willing to negotiate surrender, why did they keep fighting after the first bomb?I think your historian wanted to see a reality of his choosing, the war was calculated to have possibly lasted another year, with heavy losses on both sides.

The bomb made it possible to get a complete surrender, not a give and take like we do today.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: Solar on June 29, 2012, 03:43:13 AM
Was it the right decision/ You decide.

Why did the United States drop the bomb when it did? On July 29, a U.S. Navy ship, the Indianapolis, was sunk and 883 lives were lost. A U.S. invasion of Southeast Asia was scheduled for September 6, in which case, it was likely that 100,000 British, Dutch, and American Prisoners of War would be executed by the Japanese.

Decrypted Japanese military cables indicated that Japan was building-up its defenses in preparation for an American invasion, and many Japanese leaders testified that they were confident that they could have stopped at least the first wave of an American invasion. Decoded diplomatic cables indicated that Japan's leaders were seeking to persuade the Soviet Union to negotiate an armistice on favorable terms that would have allowed Japan to retain conquered territory. A three-time Japanese premier, Prince Konoye Fumimaro, said that had the atomic bombs not been dropped, the war would have continued into 1946: "The army had dug themselves caves in the mountains and their idea of fighting on was fighting from every little hole or rock in the mountains."
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=541 (http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=541)

Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: mdgiles on June 29, 2012, 07:39:01 AM
Does anyone believe that if the Japanese had succeeded in perfecting a device in July of 1945, that there wouldn't have been a suicide submarine going off in some west coast city by August?
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: kramarat on June 29, 2012, 08:26:17 AM
Quote from: mdgiles on June 29, 2012, 07:39:01 AM
Does anyone believe that if the Japanese had succeeded in perfecting a device in July of 1945, that there wouldn't have been a suicide submarine going off in some west coast city by August?

They were doing everything they could think of, to kill US civilians. If they had the A-bomb, they wouldn't have thought twice about using it.

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=932 (http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=932)
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: ShadowBear12 on June 29, 2012, 09:22:09 AM
Dropping the bomb was the most humanitarian thing possible.  Thank God Truman and his advisers did not have confused pacifist thoughts about it.  They saved so many young American lives ... young people who did not ask for the war or have any idea why they were there. 
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: kramarat on June 29, 2012, 09:37:04 AM
Quote from: ShadowBear12 on June 29, 2012, 09:22:09 AM
Dropping the bomb was the most humanitarian thing possible.  Thank God Truman and his advisers did not have confused pacifist thoughts about it.  They saved so many young American lives ... young people who did not ask for the war or have any idea why they were there.

I believe it also ended up saving Japanese lives.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: ShadowBear12 on June 29, 2012, 12:07:07 PM
Absolutely saved Japanese lives too. 
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: Solar on June 29, 2012, 01:15:21 PM
Quote from: kramarat on June 29, 2012, 08:26:17 AM
They were doing everything they could think of, to kill US civilians. If they had the A-bomb, they wouldn't have thought twice about using it.

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=932 (http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=932)
Absolutely right.
If I remember correctly, the Japs used balloons and the jet stream to send incendiary devices to the west coast.
I think only a few actually made it and one started a fire in the Sierra mt range near where I live.
That was targeting civilians, it served no other purpose.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: kramarat on June 29, 2012, 10:34:47 PM
Quote from: Solar on June 29, 2012, 01:15:21 PM
Absolutely right.
If I remember correctly, the Japs used balloons and the jet stream to send incendiary devices to the west coast.
I think only a few actually made it and one started a fire in the Sierra mt range near where I live.
That was targeting civilians, it served no other purpose.

The real fear, on the part of the US, was that they would be able to arm the balloons with biological agents, which they were working on.

If they succeeded............................... :scared:
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: Solar on June 29, 2012, 11:08:29 PM
Quote from: kramarat on June 29, 2012, 10:34:47 PM
The real fear, on the part of the US, was that they would be able to arm the balloons with biological agents, which they were working on.

If they succeeded............................... :scared:
Which is why people didn't stop internment camps, the Japanese proved they can be extremely ruthless and would fight to the death for their Emperor.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: kramarat on June 29, 2012, 11:14:47 PM
Quote from: Solar on June 29, 2012, 11:08:29 PM
Which is why people didn't stop internment camps, the Japanese proved they can be extremely ruthless and would fight to the death for their Emperor.

Imagine witnessing the Kamikaze pilots....................................I'm sure there was a lot of, WTF???!!!! :blink:
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: mdgiles on June 30, 2012, 12:09:21 AM
Quote from: kramarat on June 29, 2012, 11:14:47 PM
Imagine witnessing the Kamikaze pilots....................................I'm sure there was a lot of, WTF???!!!! :blink:
The problem with fighting the Japanese at the end of the war, is that their actions displayed a horribly rational logic. Take kamikazes for example. By that late in the war the US had radar, better pilots, superior aircraft, and proximity fused AA shells. The Japanese were simply not going to get through in a regular attack. So what do you do if all your planes are going to get shot down anyway? You tell them, "when you go down, make sure you take something with you". AND they were right about Allied morale. It's a toss up as to whether the Allies would have continued fighting in the face of horrendous casualties. The British were running out of troops even before they won in Europe. The Soviets, even with their disregard of casualties, had lost almost an entire generation. And the US was running out of combat infantry even before we had won in Europe. Not to mention the political pressure to bring the troops home from Europe and not send those same troops to the Pacific - even though many of the troops in the Pacific had been fighting longer. Without the bombs, the Japanese militarists strategy might have succeeded.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: ShadowBear12 on June 30, 2012, 01:39:49 AM
Great points mdgiles.  It seems public schools should be teaching these things to young people.  Instead they get sentiments that make it look like we were just war mangers anxious ro drop the bomb and could have found another way. seems teaching kids the truth about how things go dowin real life would be the best way to avoid problems in the future.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: walkstall on June 30, 2012, 04:08:26 AM
Quote from: ShadowBear12 on June 30, 2012, 01:39:49 AM
Great points mdgiles.  It seems public schools should be teaching these things to young people.  Instead they get sentiments that make it look like we were just war mangers anxious ro drop the bomb and could have found another way. seems teaching kids the truth about how things go dowin real life would be the best way to avoid problems in the future.


I think the other problem is that almost all veteran do not like talking about their time at war.  Unless there talking to another vet, that know what there talking about.  How do you tell your kids or wife what you have been through.   What you had to do to just stay alive.  I know I and my 4 brothers only talk about it when we are alone.   
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: Solar on June 30, 2012, 04:42:42 AM
Quote from: walkstall on June 30, 2012, 04:08:26 AM

I think the other problem is that almost all veteran do not like talking about their time at war.  Unless there talking to another vet, that know what there talking about.  How do you tell your kids or wife what you have been through.   What you had to do to just stay alive.  I know I and my 4 brothers only talk about it when we are alone.
True, my brother only talked about it once in 45+ years and that was when I visited him in Letterman general hospital.
He was with 20 other guys that were all banged up and on morphine, they all shared their stories with me and they were all equally horrifying.
The one that seemed to take it all in stride was the one with no legs or hands, he was grateful to be alive.

My brother never talked about it again, he didn't want to remember.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: walkstall on June 30, 2012, 04:51:54 AM
Quote from: Solar on June 30, 2012, 04:42:42 AM
True, my brother only talked about it once in 45+ years and that was when I visited him in Letterman general hospital.
He was with 20 other guys that were all banged up and on morphine, they all shared their stories with me and they were all equally horrifying.
The one that seemed to take it all in stride was the one with no legs or hands, he was grateful to be alive.

My brother never talked about it again, he didn't want to remember.

That's the key, we don't!
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: tbone0106 on June 30, 2012, 06:56:54 AM
My dad died last year, September 13, aged 85. He served from 1943 until after the end of hostilities in the navy, an SFC on a Fletcher-class destroyer, DD530, USS Trathen. Until his later years, he was EXTREMELY reluctant to talk about his war-time experience.

I like to think that what brought him around was the obvious fact that I had made a hobby of studying the war in which he was an active participant. When I got to the point that I could describe the differences between an F4F Wildcat and an F4U Corsair, and I could recite which battles they played a role in, and which carriers they called home, THEN he began to open up. The tales he told were marvelous.

GOD, I miss that man.

Other friends and acquaintances who served in WWII have shown to me the same reluctance to talk about their experiences.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: Solar on June 30, 2012, 07:05:02 AM
Quote from: tbone0106 on June 30, 2012, 06:56:54 AM
My dad died last year, September 13, aged 85. He served from 1943 until after the end of hostilities in the navy, an SFC on a Fletcher-class destroyer, DD530, USS Trathen. Until his later years, he was EXTREMELY reluctant to talk about his war-time experience.

I like to think that what brought him around was the obvious fact that I had made a hobby of studying the war in which he was an active participant. When I got to the point that I could describe the differences between an F4F Wildcat and an F4U Corsair, and I could recite which battles they played a role in, and which carriers they called home, THEN he began to open up. The tales he told were marvelous.

GOD, I miss that man.

Other friends and acquaintances who served in WWII have shown to me the same reluctance to talk about their experiences.
My dad only talked once about his experience.
People don't want to relive the experience of killing another human being.
He gave me his M-1 Carbine he carried across the Philippines, I still have it.
Title: Re: We Nuked Japan -- Was It Necessary/Justified?
Post by: kramarat on June 30, 2012, 07:10:03 AM
Quote from: tbone0106 on June 30, 2012, 06:56:54 AM
My dad died last year, September 13, aged 85. He served from 1943 until after the end of hostilities in the navy, an SFC on a Fletcher-class destroyer, DD530, USS Trathen. Until his later years, he was EXTREMELY reluctant to talk about his war-time experience.

I like to think that what brought him around was the obvious fact that I had made a hobby of studying the war in which he was an active participant. When I got to the point that I could describe the differences between an F4F Wildcat and an F4U Corsair, and I could recite which battles they played a role in, and which carriers they called home, THEN he began to open up. The tales he told were marvelous.

GOD, I miss that man.

Other friends and acquaintances who served in WWII have shown to me the same reluctance to talk about their experiences.

It ain't like the movies. I served and never did active combat duty, but I know guys that did. Both from WWII and Vietnam. God bless them. Decent human beings are not hardwired to go through those experiences. I thank them every day.