I've been thinking about purchasing a rifle to take down to the range for some target practice this spring. I want something larger than a 22. Got any suggestions for something that's not too expensive and uses a relatively cheap, easy to find (assuming there wasn't an ammo shortage anyway) type of ammo?
I think 223 is pretty cheap comparatively.
Check out this site and see what you find.
http://ammoseek.com/ (http://ammoseek.com/)
Quote from: JTA on March 18, 2013, 05:09:07 PM
I've been thinking about purchasing a rifle to take down to the range for some target practice this spring. I want something larger than a 22. Got any suggestions for something that's not too expensive and uses a relatively cheap, easy to find (assuming there wasn't an ammo shortage anyway) type of ammo?
Buy an SKS. Shoots 7.62X39. Russian and other foreign crap is still relatively cheap. Most everything else has gone out of sight if you can find it.
Quote from: Shooterman on March 18, 2013, 05:29:58 PM
Buy an SKS. Shoots 7.62X39. Russian and other foreign crap is still relatively cheap. Most everything else has gone out of sight if you can find it.
Good point, I bought a bolt action Mosignant in excellent condition at Big5 for $69.0 and a thousand rounds of ammo for around $70.0.
Quote from: Solar on March 18, 2013, 05:42:28 PM
Good point, I bought a bolt action Mosignant in excellent condition at Big5 for $69.0 and a thousand rounds of ammo for around $70.0.
Dang, 150 bucks on Cabelas! That seems really cheap.
http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=710007 (http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=710007)
Ammo seems the be relatively cheap and oddly enough in stock.
Quote from: JTA on March 18, 2013, 05:51:32 PM
Dang, 150 bucks on Cabelas! That seems really cheap.
http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=710007 (http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=710007)
Ammo seems the be relatively cheap and oddly enough in stock.
Sorry I spelled it wrong. :blush:
Makes a Hell of a sniper rifle. I really like mine, not ear splitting, and you can burn several rounds without fatigue.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/09/chris-dumm/gun-review-mosin-nagant/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/09/chris-dumm/gun-review-mosin-nagant/)
Not being much of a gun guy, This thread triggered a question. After assault type rifles are limited, will the anti second amendment folks start after sniper type (Deer) rifles?
Quote from: Eyesabide on March 18, 2013, 06:15:44 PM
Not being much of a gun guy, This thread triggered a question. After assault type rifles are limited, will the anti second amendment folks start after sniper type (Deer) rifles?
Yes. They are now targeting shot guns as well.
I'm moving this to Survival forum.
My all around play around target practice rifle is a 2 22. But I like the looks of that 223. :thumbsup:
I've been checking out the Mossberg MVP. Its a 5.56/.223 bolt action that takes AR mags.
http://www.mossberg.com/products/rifles/centerfire/mvp-series (http://www.mossberg.com/products/rifles/centerfire/mvp-series)
Think I can find something reasonable for under 250?
Bolt action Mosignant looks pretty cheap.
Quote from: JTA on March 19, 2013, 04:41:07 PM
Think I can find something reasonable for under 250?
Bolt action Mosignant looks pretty cheap.
Definitely best bang for the buck, even though it's 70 years old, they are still extremely accurate.
Put a scope on it, and you'd be hard pressed to find anything under $500. to beat it.
Quote from: Solar on March 19, 2013, 04:52:15 PM
Definitely best bang for the buck, even though it's 70 years old, they are still extremely accurate.
Put a scope on it, and you'd be hard pressed to find anything under $500. to beat it.
Keep in mind that ammo for your Mosin-Nagant ain't on Walmart's shelf, and probably never will be. The correct ammo is 7.62x54mmR -- the "R" means rimmed. This is NOT the same fodder that goes through an AK or an SKS -- that's 7.62x39mm, which is available all over the place, but is a completely different and incompatible cartridge.
I agree with Solar, the caliber is a good one, and the old M-N rifles were well made. But they're mostly a hundred years old, some older, and they're all bolt-action. If that's what you want, fine, just so you know what you're getting. Yes, if you can find a way to fit a scope to one, you're good to go for hunting. But the Mosin-Nagant is not much of a self-defense piece, unless it's all you have. (Hell, a butter knife is good for defense if it's all you have...)
Before you plunk down the cash, look carefully down the bore. If it's really dark in there, pass it by. In my experience, the vast majority of such battle rifles have bores so badly shot out that you can't hit my house from here -- a distance of about 100 feet. I once bought an old Lee-Enfield No. 1, Mk 3 that was a fine-looking piece, but couldn't pierce a target more than three times before its rotted barrel heated and warped and walked the holes right off the paper. An even prettier Mauser 98 in 7mm cal. was even worse. It had been "tricked up" every way there was -- turned down bolt handle, target sights, walnut Monte Carlo stock, scope mounts, M70-style safety, hot-bluing -- you name it. It was one of the sexiest damn rifles I've ever seen, and that's why I bought it -- for $140. Holy cow. At 25 yards, the long, sexy 7mm bullets that thing shot made holes in the paper target -- occasionally -- that looked like an old-fashioned pop bottle, kinda oblong. At 100 yds. that rifle made holes in the target NEVER, EVER ONCE.
Quote from: TboneAgain on March 19, 2013, 05:20:13 PM
Keep in mind that ammo for your Mosin-Nagant ain't on Walmart's shelf, and probably never will be. The correct ammo is 7.62x54mmR -- the "R" means rimmed. This is NOT the same fodder that goes through an AK or an SKS -- that's 7.62x39mm, which is available all over the place, but is a completely different and incompatible cartridge.
I agree with Solar, the caliber is a good one, and the old M-N rifles were well made. But they're mostly a hundred years old, some older, and they're all bolt-action. If that's what you want, fine, just so you know what you're getting. Yes, if you can find a way to fit a scope to one, you're good to go for hunting. But the Mosin-Nagant is not much of a self-defense piece, unless it's all you have. (Hell, a butter knife is good for defense if it's all you have...)
Before you plunk down the cash, look carefully down the bore. If it's really dark in there, pass it by. In my experience, the vast majority of such battle rifles have bores so badly shot out that you can't hit my house from here -- a distance of about 100 feet. I once bought an old Lee-Enfield No. 1, Mk 3 that was a fine-looking piece, but couldn't pierce a target more than three times before its rotted barrel heated and warped and walked the holes right off the paper. An even prettier Mauser 98 in 7mm cal. was even worse. It had been "tricked up" every way there was -- turned down bolt handle, target sights, walnut Monte Carlo stock, scope mounts, M70-style safety, hot-bluing -- you name it. It was one of the sexiest damn rifles I've ever seen, and that's why I bought it -- for $140. Holy cow. At 25 yards, the long, sexy 7mm bullets that thing shot made holes in the paper target -- occasionally -- that looked like an old-fashioned pop bottle, kinda oblong. At 100 yds. that rifle made holes in the target NEVER, EVER ONCE.
It's true, many of these old rifles have issues, but Big5 and Cabellas have trusted buyers and you can expect top quality, if there is a Cabellas close by, you can inspect all the weapons and compare.
The only issue is the grease they were stored in, can't remember what it's called, but recommend stripping the gun down and cleaning it. Aw, cosmoline. :laugh:
My bore looked perfect, showed no sign of ever having been fired.
You will be hard pressed to find visible signs of bore wear. Rust and pitting can be seen, however, wear in the lands or the crown sufficient to cause accuracy issues can not be seen with the naked eye. Most of your retired military rifles have had thousands of rounds cycled through them. Yes, they can be purchased cheap and you can shoot them at the range...just don't plan on impressing anyone with accuracy. Savage makes some good quality guns and comparatively speaking they are low prices. For the money they are some of the most accurate rifles out of the box that I have found. If you can find one a 22 Hornet would be a good low recoil caliber and it is under the "assault caliber" radar right now. 223 is still a good round but ammo is hard to find right now but that will soon change IMO.
Quote from: walkstall on March 18, 2013, 07:38:08 PM
My all around play around target practice rifle is a 2 22. But I like the looks of that 223. :thumbsup:
The best varmint rifle -- and by far the most accurate rifle of any description -- I ever owned was a beat-up Remington 788 in .222 caliber. I bought it from an elderly gentleman who told me it was "too much gun" for him, meaning too loud, too much kick, etc. (His favored caliber was the 5mm Remington, and he asked me to be "on the scout" for shells for his gun. Yeah, right. Thirty years ago, 5mm shells were selling at gun shows for about $35 for a box of twenty.)
The 788 was Remington's "poor man's bolt action rifle," not even a cousin to the high-dollar 700/721/722 series of wallhangers. It had a cheap straight birch stock, a simple plastic butt cap, the minimal bluing and metal finishing, and a bolt that rattled around in the receiver like a rock in a tin can. It was offered in the usual calibers, plus some you might not expect in such a cheapie: .243 Winchester, 30-30, and the aging .222 Remington, my caliber.
I handloaded my own ammunition back in those days, and I experimented with every powder/bullet/primer/casing combo I could think of. Sundays were shooting days out at the old AEP strip mine pits. My best shooting buddy, my preacher, and I would show up out at the pits, and NOBODY dared to make an appearance with less than 500 rounds ready to burn. We burned a lot of powder, and I learned a lot about handloading.
Every rifle is unique, and each rifle shoots different loads differently. Factory loads from Remington, Winchester, Federal, Norma, etc. game me 100-yd. groups in the range of 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" at 100 yds., nothing close to what I wanted, which was sure kills on groundhog-sized targets at 250 yds.
After months of experimentation, and thousands of rounds shot (and a LOT of fun times!), I settled on this for that old Remington:
- Once-fired .223 military brass (donated, but more accurate and durable than any of the commercial stuff) sized and trimmed to .222
- CCI small rifle primer
- 39.5 grains of IMR (DuPont) 4198 stick smokeless powder (weighed by hand on a scale, not from a drop)
- Hornady 52-grain BTHP Match bullet
Using that combination of components, shooting from a sandbag rest, at 100 yards, I could put five shots in one ragged hole, which I could cover with the tip of my index finger. At 300 yds., I could shoot inside a 3" circle. Twice I dropped groundhogs at roughly 330 yards with that rifle, and many, many more 'hogs at shorter ranges.
I guess my point is that any gun can do what you want if you treat it right, and do the things necessary to make it happen. Some of my shooting buddies laughed at me when I bought that 788 from that old man. But nobody laughed when they saw the 'hogs die at 250 yards.
I was a young pup when I bought both those rifles, and I fell for that "Uh, my bore light batteries are dead" line at the local gun show/swap meet. (And of course I didn't have my own bore light.) I didn't actually see any bore deterioration in either the Lee-Enfield or the Mauser -- because once I shot a decent bore light down those barrels THERE WAS NOTHING TO SEE. No shine, no grooves, no lands, just darkness with a round bright spot at the end. They were both wall-hangers, but pretty to look at, you bet! I should've reamed the chambers in both guns and used them as .410 shotguns.
I agree that the sort of damage that can affect accuracy begins before it's visible to the naked eye. But I also was not exaggerating about how badly my gun show "bargains" performed on the target range. The L-E was at least predictable. It would put the first shot on target and walk subsequent slugs up and to the right, faster with each firing. (The way the rifle was set up, it was natural for me to lay the fingers of my left hand across the top of the barrel ahead of the breach; I could actually feel the barrel heat up as each shot was fired.) But that Mauser... when I was working with that thing, I wouldn't let anyone stand even an inch beyond the plane of the firing line. That thing flung bullets all over the place!
My point: They may be pretty, and the seller may talk a good game, but caveat emptor!!!
I like the large scoped 25-06. It's a tack driver at a 100 or 200 yards. Flat Flat trajectory. For survival though it is best to stay with a cheap - popular cartridge.
Although at the moment you have to wonder when the supply will open up again.
Below is a free PDF download with a complete Ballistics Chart.
Below that is a Wikipedia's nice picture of 17 different Rifle Cartridges that allows a excellent comparison.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25-06_Remington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25-06_Remington)
http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/ballistics/2013-Standard-Ballistics.pdf (http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/ballistics/2013-Standard-Ballistics.pdf)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rifle_cartridges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rifle_cartridges)
Thanks for the info everyone. I think I'm going to hold off getting a rifle for a little while. The range nearby my house doesn't allow rifles larger than a 22.
Let me ask you all another question, which do you think is a better buy - a Ruger LC9 or a Taurus PT709?
JTA
I think some considerations in buying a firearm are -
Do you have a family? Children?
IF you have children you need to take extra precautions to secure your firearm, not only from them but their friends.
A word about children and guns.I have four children.
I took them to the Gun Range when they turned seven onward.
They learned to shoot a .22 and a 9mm Pistol.
When they were older they all shot larger calibers including my .44 Mag S&W
I took them to the shooting range every 3 -6 months
or if they asked to go.Mostly they shot .22 rifles for fun
At home I told them Anytime they want to look at my guns or hold one in their hands tell me and I will get the gun or guns out.
As a result they learned to shoot well, know Gun Safety well, respect guns and are Pro Gun.
I never had to worry about them and my guns. (Yes I monitored their activity for safety )
If they wanted to go shooting - they asked and I arranged it.
My 33 year old RN daughter just bought a 9mm Pistol. She already had a .22 Pistol. She takes her 13 year old daughter to the range occasionally.
_________________________________________________
How familiar with guns are you?
How often have you shot a pistol?
Do you intend to shoot regularly in the future?
Invest in a Gun Safety and Shooting course at your local Gun Range - $100 - $150.
If you own a firearm the most important things are:
Gun Safety
The ability to shoot accurately - very accurately if possible.
That learning should be done with a small caliber - like a .22
Small Caliber is Cheap to shoot.
The reason to learn with a small caliber is so you do not acquire bad habits.
I have seen people shoot and learn on large caliber guns develop terrible habits that can be difficult to near impossible to correct.
Quote
The worst is the INVOLUNTARY FLINCH
What is an Involuntary Flinch?
That's when in anticipation of the gun firings the person flinches and the gun jerks (usually) down.
The Best Way to Tell How Much of a Flinch a person has is with a REVOLVER.
You load 3 rounds in the cylinder and skip a one cylinder or two. Don't let the shooter see how you loaded it. Then the shooter takes the firearm and shoots one shot at a time with at least 4-5 seconds separating the shots. If they have any flinch it will be obvious when there is "NO" round in the chamber. The shooter will also become aware of how much flinch they have.
What to buy?
It depends on what your primary purpose in buying is?
Defense - rarely used OR concealed Carry - daily use.
Out of curiosity I took a look and found these. >
Ruger is a very well respected long history / pedigree American firearm
http://www.guns.com/reviews/ruger-lc9/ (http://www.guns.com/reviews/ruger-lc9/)
The Taurus is manufactured by Brazil. The Review below is not favorable about the Trigger.
http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/ss/taurus-pt709-slim-9mm-compact-pocket-pistol-review_2.htm (http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/ss/taurus-pt709-slim-9mm-compact-pocket-pistol-review_2.htm)
Quote from: JTA on April 03, 2013, 03:06:29 PM
Thanks for the info everyone. I think I'm going to hold off getting a rifle for a little while. The range nearby my house doesn't allow rifles larger than a 22.
Let me ask you all another question, which do you think is a better buy - a Ruger LC9 or a Taurus PT709?
Ruger.....PERIOD!
Quote from: Bowhntr on April 05, 2013, 07:46:44 AM
Ruger.....PERIOD!
I tend to agree, Ruger has never failed me, and I've owned three, 41 mag burned in a fire, my 357 stolen and the last is a semiauto, and not once did one of these fail to perform, even when dirty and full of sand and mud.
Dipped 357 and the 22 both in a creek and worked them under water and neither had an issue.
Did I mention I'm hard on guns? I can care less what a piece looks like, I didn't buy them for show, just like any tool, if a garage is full of brand new tools that never get used and abused, then I can show you a man that doesn't know how to use tools and maintain them, not to mention, probably can't use them to their full potential.
Quote from: TboneAgain on March 19, 2013, 05:20:13 PM
Keep in mind that ammo for your Mosin-Nagant ain't on Walmart's shelf, and probably never will be. The correct ammo is 7.62x54mmR -- the "R" means rimmed. This is NOT the same fodder that goes through an AK or an SKS -- that's 7.62x39mm, which is available all over the place, but is a completely different and incompatible cartridge.
I agree with Solar, the caliber is a good one, and the old M-N rifles were well made. But they're mostly a hundred years old, some older, and they're all bolt-action. If that's what you want, fine, just so you know what you're getting. Yes, if you can find a way to fit a scope to one, you're good to go for hunting. But the Mosin-Nagant is not much of a self-defense piece, unless it's all you have. (Hell, a butter knife is good for defense if it's all you have...)
Before you plunk down the cash, look carefully down the bore. If it's really dark in there, pass it by. In my experience, the vast majority of such battle rifles have bores so badly shot out that you can't hit my house from here -- a distance of about 100 feet. I once bought an old Lee-Enfield No. 1, Mk 3 that was a fine-looking piece, but couldn't pierce a target more than three times before its rotted barrel heated and warped and walked the holes right off the paper. An even prettier Mauser 98 in 7mm cal. was even worse. It had been "tricked up" every way there was -- turned down bolt handle, target sights, walnut Monte Carlo stock, scope mounts, M70-style safety, hot-bluing -- you name it. It was one of the sexiest damn rifles I've ever seen, and that's why I bought it -- for $140. Holy cow. At 25 yards, the long, sexy 7mm bullets that thing shot made holes in the paper target -- occasionally -- that looked like an old-fashioned pop bottle, kinda oblong. At 100 yds. that rifle made holes in the target NEVER, EVER ONCE.
Re-barrel the buggers, Tee. I was shooting Bolt Action Service Rifle competition and needed a good bolt action. By then the 03-A3s were already getting scarcer than hen's teeth and expensive, so I found a '17 Enfield. The bore was dark, but I figured a good cleaning would take care of that. Turns out after about two or three matches, it wasn't cleaning up, so I had it re-barreled. Have a brand new barrel, looks slicker than Marilyn Monrow's calender. Was shooting great. Now am having bolt problems, but the bore is bright and shiny.
Have a Chinese SKS I am thinking of updating into a SHTF rifle. New sights, and a poly stock with hand grips, plus converting to mags rather than the stripper clips. Paid a hundred for the thing about 12-14 years ago, can upgrade for less than 300. May buy a spare bolt to have in case, as well.
Waited way to long to even attempt to buy an AK, and the Bushy is a match grade and way too damned heavy to lug around, though I did buy 3 thirty round mags for it. ( for trading, if nothing else )
Quote from: Shooterman on April 05, 2013, 08:51:34 AM
Re-barrel the buggers, Tee. I was shooting Bolt Action Service Rifle competition and needed a good bolt action. By then the 03-A3s were already getting scarcer than hen's teeth and expensive, so I found a '17 Enfield. The bore was dark, but I figured a good cleaning would take care of that. Turns out after about two or three matches, it wasn't cleaning up, so I had it re-barreled. Have a brand new barrel, looks slicker than Marilyn Monrow's calender. Was shooting great. Now am having bolt problems, but the bore is bright and shiny.
Have a Chinese SKS I am thinking of updating into a SHTF rifle. New sights, and a poly stock with hand grips, plus converting to mags rather than the stripper clips. Paid a hundred for the thing about 12-14 years ago, can upgrade for less than 300. May buy a spare bolt to have in case, as well.
Waited way to long to even attempt to buy an AK, and the Bushy is a match grade and way too damned heavy to lug around, though I did buy 3 thirty round mags for it. ( for trading, if nothing else )
Rebarreling is always an option... but the cost is rather high. Paying a competent gunsmith to rebarrel a rifle often exceeds the cost of a new rifle. If I were looking to convert an SKS to a SHTF gun, the only thing I'd do is convert it to magazine feed. Maybe saw a few inches off the stock and/or the barrel.
The way things are going, your 30-rounders were a good investment. Maybe you can find some SKS ammo to trade for? :tounge: :tounge: :tounge:
Quote from: TboneAgain on April 05, 2013, 06:15:12 PM
Rebarreling is always an option... but the cost is rather high. Paying a competent gunsmith to rebarrel a rifle often exceeds the cost of a new rifle. If I were looking to convert an SKS to a SHTF gun, the only thing I'd do is convert it to magazine feed. Maybe saw a few inches off the stock and/or the barrel.
The way things are going, your 30-rounders were a good investment. Maybe you can find some SKS ammo to trade for? :tounge: :tounge: :tounge:
Yeah, to re-barrel can be a little expensive. I think back then I paid a hundred for the barrel and about a 100 for the gunsmith. So, I have about 325-350 in the '17.
If I do the SKS, the problem is the sights suck. They are in front of the bolt opening. New sights will now give the sight picture as that of an M-1 or an M1 Carbine. Plus the other will be for cosmetic purposed other than the mag conversion. Sights and the mag conversion will be for sure.
Russian 7.62 X 39 is still relatively cheap. I have some, and have dies and brass to reload.
Quote from: Cyborg on April 03, 2013, 05:19:10 PM
JTA
I think some considerations in buying a firearm are -
Do you have a family? Children?
IF you have children you need to take extra precautions to secure your firearm, not only from them but their friends.
A word about children and guns.
I have four children.
I took them to the Gun Range when they turned seven onward.
They learned to shoot a .22 and a 9mm Pistol.
When they were older they all shot larger calibers including my .44 Mag S&W
I took them to the shooting range every 3 -6 months or if they asked to go.
Mostly they shot .22 rifles for fun
At home I told them Anytime they want to look at my guns or hold one in their hands tell me and I will get the gun or guns out.
As a result they learned to shoot well, know Gun Safety well, respect guns and are Pro Gun.
I never had to worry about them and my guns. (Yes I monitored their activity for safety )
If they wanted to go shooting - they asked and I arranged it.
My 33 year old RN daughter just bought a 9mm Pistol. She already had a .22 Pistol. She takes her 13 year old daughter to the range occasionally.
_________________________________________________
How familiar with guns are you?
How often have you shot a pistol?
Do you intend to shoot regularly in the future?
Invest in a Gun Safety and Shooting course at your local Gun Range - $100 - $150.
If you own a firearm the most important things are:
Gun Safety
The ability to shoot accurately - very accurately if possible.
That learning should be done with a small caliber - like a .22
Small Caliber is Cheap to shoot.
The reason to learn with a small caliber is so you do not acquire bad habits.
I have seen people shoot and learn on large caliber guns develop terrible habits that can be difficult to near impossible to correct.
What to buy?
It depends on what your primary purpose in buying is?
Defense - rarely used OR concealed Carry - daily use.
Out of curiosity I took a look and found these. >
Ruger is a very well respected long history / pedigree American firearm
http://www.guns.com/reviews/ruger-lc9/ (http://www.guns.com/reviews/ruger-lc9/)
The Taurus is manufactured by Brazil. The Review below is not favorable about the Trigger.
http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/ss/taurus-pt709-slim-9mm-compact-pocket-pistol-review_2.htm (http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/ss/taurus-pt709-slim-9mm-compact-pocket-pistol-review_2.htm)
Home and personal defense. I don't have any children.
I'm fairly familiar with shooting and gun safety. I used to go hunting as a kid and recently purchased my first firearm a few months ago (Beretta 96). I've shot about 400-500 rounds with it thus far (bought it from a friend who used to let me shoot it a lot), and I do intend to shoot regularly, provided I can actually find some more ammo.
No particular reason I want to get another pistol, I just really enjoy hitting the range. Well I take that back, I am planning on getting a CWP, the Beretta is a little large to carry should I even decide to do so.
Also, I'd like my fiancee to get her CWP too, so a smaller pistol would be ideal for her to be able to throw in her purse. She's had several run-ins with some shady people in the past. Then again, I don't know if she would be better off with a taser or some pepper spray. She's fairly intimidated by guns and has yet to shoot one. Once ammo becomes easier to buy I plan on teaching her how to operate a gun. I want to start her off with something small like a .22 though.
I think the Ruger is the way to go, unless you guys have any other suggestions for a good carry gun?
Quote from: JTA on April 06, 2013, 07:53:17 AM
Home and personal defense. I don't have any children.
I'm fairly familiar with shooting and gun safety. I used to go hunting as a kid and recently purchased my first firearm a few months ago (Beretta 96). I've shot about 400-500 rounds with it thus far (bought it from a friend who used to let me shoot it a lot), and I do intend to shoot regularly, provided I can actually find some more ammo.
No particular reason I want to get another pistol, I just really enjoy hitting the range. Well I take that back, I am planning on getting a CWP, the Beretta is a little large to carry should I even decide to do so.
Also, I'd like my fiancee to get her CWP too, so a smaller pistol would be ideal for her to be able to throw in her purse. She's had several run-ins with some shady people in the past. Then again, I don't know if she would be better off with a taser or some pepper spray. She's fairly intimidated by guns and has yet to shoot one. Once ammo becomes easier to buy I plan on teaching her how to operate a gun. I want to start her off with something small like a .22 though.
I think the Ruger is the way to go, unless you guys have any other suggestions for a good carry gun?
You might like to look at a Bersa .380. A number of years ago, I had bought my wife and two daughters all Taurus 85CHs, one in stainless and two that were blued. Eventually after a trigger job on the S/S that was my wife's. it was made even worse, so I bought her an Ultra Star in 40 S&W. ( Star is no longer in the business ) 3 or 4 years ago, one of my daughters wanted an auto, so I bought her that Bersa .380, and got her Taurus back. That Bersa cost about 200 as I recall, but that was a few years ago. Great little pistol for the money, DA, has a decocker as I recall. I had shot one that belonged to a friend, and for carry, especially by a lady, it would be perfect. It goes boom and makes a bigger hole than a 22 and with a good frangible round, it should do the trick.
Shop the pawn shops and a 223 is a great caliber but so is the 7.62, it has been around a long time and there are lots of them available.
I've heard that a lot of M-N have not been used, or barely used. Supposedly the Russians pumped out so many of them over 50 years that many just never saw action.
And they can find their way to you packed really well in cosmolene and containers.
I'm sure it's not a given, and probably dependent on the quality of the dealers and their suppliers. I've read nothing but glowing reviews for the ones that Bud's sells.
I love that Big 5 story. Rifle and 1000 rounds for under 200 dollars ? That's just crazy.
If you found yourself in a situation where you needed to hunt game in the wild to survive, what type of gun would be best to have? A shotgun, a .22 rifle, something else?
Quote from: JTA on May 20, 2013, 02:14:56 PM
If you found yourself in a situation where you needed to hunt game in the wild to survive, what type of gun would be best to have? A shotgun, a .22 rifle, something else?
.22 rifle, hands down. God never invented a better tool for collecting a mess to eat.
Excepting flying game -- ducks, geese, grouse, pheasants, etc. -- every reasonably edible animal that walks the continent can be taken with a .22, with the possible exception of buffalo. That classification most definitely includes whitetail deer, if taken carefully. (I can drop a whitetail with a single .22 slug, and have done so a number of times.)
Back when Dad was raising beef cattle, killing one was a big deal for him. He called his buddy, "Hack" Blackburn, a small man skilled in the arts of meatcutting. Hack also had this weird little rifle, a .22 break-open with a barrel maybe 15" long and a stock that was just barely there. The front sight was gone, and a small sheet-metal screw had taken its place. Our barn had a large central bay, with hay mows on both sides, and Dad would shoo the victim into the big bay, where Hack waited with his sawed-off wonder. Quick as a wink, Hack would raise his runt rifle and SNAP! That cow's legs would collapse instantly, and its belly would hit the ground within a second. No twitch, no fuss, no muss. Hack's skinning knife came out, the jugular was cut, and five minutes later we were seriously skinning a beef.
The secret is not carrying the biggest gun. The secret is knowing EXACTLY where to put the bullet. With Hereford cattle, there is a space above and between the eyes, about the size of a half-dollar, that is the right place. When Dad ran a victim into the middle of the barn, Hack was waiting. He moved just a little, and the cow stopped, front feet sliding across the ground. The instant the cow stopped, Hack popped it in that little circle -- with a little ol' .22.
Looking back over what I just wrote, I feel right about adding this:
I DO NOT recommend that ANYONE hunt or take large game with a .22 rifle.
I DO NOT recommend that ANYONE kill a beef with a .22 rifle. (I remember the one time Hack missed. He climbed a stack of fertilizer sacks faster than I thought a human being could move -- that heifer was PISSED.)
I DO NOT recommend that ANYONE modify any rifle or other firearm in a way that would place it or the owner in violation of existing federal, state or local laws.
Still, the secret is not in the gun. It's in the knowing how to use the gun.
Quote from: TboneAgain on May 21, 2013, 08:09:53 PM
Looking back over what I just wrote, I feel right about adding this:
I DO NOT recommend that ANYONE hunt or take large game with a .22 rifle.
I DO NOT recommend that ANYONE kill a beef with a .22 rifle. (I remember the one time Hack missed. He climbed a stack of fertilizer sacks faster than I thought a human being could move -- that heifer was PISSED.)
I DO NOT recommend that ANYONE modify any rifle or other firearm in a way that would place it or the owner in violation of existing federal, state or local laws.
Still, the secret is not in the gun. It's in the knowing how to use the gun.
In a survival situation, I agree absolutely!
But if you're not starving, use a round that stops the heart instantly, once the animal knows it's life is about to be snuffed out, panic sets in and adrenaline taints every part of the body.
And that what a small caliber round does, it kills too slowly and the animal usually bleeds out.
Quote from: Solar on May 22, 2013, 06:42:28 AM
In a survival situation, I agree absolutely!
But if you're not starving, use a round that stops the heart instantly, once the animal knows it's life is about to be snuffed out, panic sets in and adrenaline taints every part of the body.
And that what a small caliber round does, it kills too slowly and the animal usually bleeds out.
I made my point poorly, it is clear.
When I talked about the target being a spot about the size of a half dollar above and between the eyes, I was trying to say that that is a soft spot in a cow's skull. During the misadventure I described, the heifer flinched at the moment Hack shot, and Hack missed that spot. That little slug bouncing off its otherwise thick skull appeared to aggravate that heifer somewhat, and the resultant aggressive behavior is what encouraged Hack to appear at the top of a six-foot stack of bagged fertilizer.
In other words, it was NOT a failure of the .22 bullet, but a failure of that bullet to reach its destination.
Around the same time as this incident, a neighbor's Charolais bull had taken to busting through five-strand barbed-wire fences to go
mano y mano with my dad's Hereford bull, Jess. The neighbors bull dressed out (much later) at around 1,800 lb. Dad's Jess went at 1,200. Fair fight, yes?
I did not witness this, but was told it by reliable witnesses, including my dad....
An attempt was made to pen that bull up in a barn, which resulted mainly in large holes in the barn. Attempts were made to fence him in, which generally resulted in lots of broken barbed wire and fenceposts. Finally, an attempt was made to put him down by a marksman with a .22 Hornet rifle. The bullet bounced off his head and he blinked. (This is what I was told.)
That bull's final episode was when he was caught standing in the open and another marksman was able to place a .30-06 slug through his left ear. I'm told his knees buckled instantly and his belly hit the ground
exactly the way I described the demise of Hack's victims earlier.In a way, it's a matter of scale. I read an article once that claimed, for example, that shooting a squirrel or a rabbit with a .22 is the equivalent of shooting a whitetail deer with a 20mm cannon. Zowie!
But what I was talking about originally was close-range execution by gunshot between the eyes, and that does not require -- and indeed should not involve -- a large-caliber weapon. I read somewhere once that laborers in Chicago slaughterhouses accomplished the exact same results with spiked hammers. As the pigs or whatever were run through chutes below them, workers would swing spiked hammers and strike them between the eyes, and the critters would drop in their tracks.
But I would not care to be the guy who gets to chase that one-ton Charolais bull around the barnyard with a hammer.
Quote from: TboneAgain on May 26, 2013, 11:09:44 PM
I made my point poorly, it is clear.
When I talked about the target being a spot about the size of a half dollar above and between the eyes, I was trying to say that that is a soft spot in a cow's skull. During the misadventure I described, the heifer flinched at the moment Hack shot, and Hack missed that spot. That little slug bouncing off its otherwise thick skull appeared to aggravate that heifer somewhat, and the resultant aggressive behavior is what encouraged Hack to appear at the top of a six-foot stack of bagged fertilizer.
In other words, it was NOT a failure of the .22 bullet, but a failure of that bullet to reach its destination.
Around the same time as this incident, a neighbor's Charolais bull had taken to busting through five-strand barbed-wire fences to go mano y mano with my dad's Hereford bull, Jess. The neighbors bull dressed out (much later) at around 1,800 lb. Dad's Jess went at 1,200. Fair fight, yes?
I did not witness this, but was told it by reliable witnesses, including my dad....
An attempt was made to pen that bull up in a barn, which resulted mainly in large holes in the barn. Attempts were made to fence him in, which generally resulted in lots of broken barbed wire and fenceposts. Finally, an attempt was made to put him down by a marksman with a .22 Hornet rifle. The bullet bounced off his head and he blinked. (This is what I was told.)
That bull's final episode was when he was caught standing in the open and another marksman was able to place a .30-06 slug through his left ear. I'm told his knees buckled instantly and his belly hit the ground exactly the way I described the demise of Hack's victims earlier.
In a way, it's a matter of scale. I read an article once that claimed, for example, that shooting a squirrel or a rabbit with a .22 is the equivalent of shooting a whitetail deer with a 20mm cannon. Zowie!
But what I was talking about originally was close-range execution by gunshot between the eyes, and that does not require -- and indeed should not involve -- a large-caliber weapon. I read somewhere once that laborers in Chicago slaughterhouses accomplished the exact same results with spiked hammers. As the pigs or whatever were run through chutes below them, workers would swing spiked hammers and strike them between the eyes, and the critters would drop in their tracks.
But I would not care to be the guy who gets to chase that one-ton Charolais bull around the barnyard with a hammer.
LOL!!! That's funny, even been there, done that in a sense.
I was caught in a fees lot working our herd ready for sale, but these were cattle not for slaughter, but breeding, all around $30 K per head.
When some morons from a neighboring ranch brought out a Brahma bull, one that easily blew through 2" piped gates and right in my alley.
Feed lots are generally like giant pies sliced into 20 sections, arena sort in the centered accessing all the slices from a center.
This bull found the only exit a 1/4 mile away from my location, where I was on the outer perimeter which is also a gated barrier surrounding the entire pie.
Well the bottom of the pie, which is located on a slope had one gate still open, about 200' from my local, and the only reason it was open was all the manure, wet at that, had run to the bottom of of the hill, so deep that the gate was a permanent fixture stuck open.
Well I heard all this yelling and screaming from the wannabe cowboys, they were in a panic, the bull was tossing ass and boots all over the lot, when one thinking cowboy took it upon himself to warn us.
I looked up the isle, and there it was, a one ton black mass pissed at all of humanity, and he was headed right for me.
I took of running faster than I can remember, and headed for the open gate, of course I knew of the manure, but I had no idea it was wet, being mid summer.
I got about 20' and sunk, thinking I was doomed, I looked back expecting to see my impending demise, only to be hit bay a wall of shit, the bull only made it 15' where he had cut a path towards me.
At this point relief had passed over me, though the question of how long would I have to stand neck deep in shit was crossing my mind now.
With the help of several lassos and a winch on a truck, they drug the bull out, and a rope to me allowed me to be drug on my belly for another 100'+ to my freedom.
One thing I learned about this brand of cowboy, was they do half the work to create twice the trouble for themselves and those around them.
But back to your point, correct, if you can surprise the animal, the meat will be adrenaline free, which is why they use this method today in meat packing plants.
The animals are lead down a narrow path single file, where the animals enter one by one, a chute that allows only their head to peer out, the animal is gently squeezed and a blade separates the head from the body quickly and instantly, not allowing the brain to trigger the adrenal gland.
lol, this is what they always say about shooting to kill for hunting - eyes & ears. A .22 can do that on just about any animal with a good enough shot.
Though I'd strongly recommend against trying your skills against things like bulls, rinos, bears, etc.
I forget what movie, but I remember one where there was an old Indian who borrowed a guy's rifle once a year, with one .22 round, and brought back a huge deer for meat for the year.
Today's good news is the local Walmart is nicely stocked with very good weapons, which haven't all disappeared within days of showing up.
Several 5.56 and even a really nice 7.62 with a big box magazine. Somewhat unfortunately, priced right on 2K $. But....all the bells & whistles: really neat folding stock, great sights, tri-rail fore end, etc.
Uses both 7.62 and .308, very nifty.
I like the idea of something similar to an AR-15 with that much more punch to it.
Quote from: Shooterman on March 18, 2013, 05:29:58 PM
Buy an SKS. Shoots 7.62X39. Russian and other foreign crap is still relatively cheap. Most everything else has gone out of sight if you can find it.
Shooterman:
The SKS carbine is an inexpensive yet accurate weapon that many people here in northwest Arkansas use for hunting deer. Even without a scope, the hard sites are reasonably accurate out to around one hundred yards. With a scope, hitting a target the size of a No. 10 coffree-can lid at one-hundred-fifty yards is not out of the question. The ammo is cheap if purchesed from mail order ammo suppliers. My two sons and I have used the 7.62X39 Remington 125 GR. R762391 rifle bullets with good success for the last several deer-hunting seasons. These carbines are a little on the heavy side, but not unreasonably so. Coupled to a folding stock, the SKS is also good as a home defense weapon, assuming that you do not live in an apartment complex.
RO
Quote from: AndyJackson on June 20, 2013, 08:07:49 AM
lol, this is what they always say about shooting to kill for hunting - eyes & ears. A .22 can do that on just about any animal with a good enough shot.
Though I'd strongly recommend against trying your skills against things like bulls, rinos, bears, etc.
I forget what movie, but I remember one where there was an old Indian who borrowed a guy's rifle once a year, with one .22 round, and brought back a huge deer for meat for the year.
Shoot, I remember watching Fred Bear shooting grizzlies with a bow. I ain't got that kind of cajones!
Walmart's stocked back up nicely with .223's. Even one for a paltry $ 600.00; hard to beat that !
Of course .223 ammo is not very plentiful, but you can get it in dribs & drabs.
Quote from: AndyJackson on August 26, 2013, 02:00:17 PM
Walmart's stocked back up nicely with .223's. Even one for a paltry $ 600.00; hard to beat that !
Of course .223 ammo is not very plentiful, but you can get it in dribs & drabs.
I picked up a bunch of 7.62x39 ammo a few week ago at Wal-mart. They didn't have any pistol ammo, but seems like our local sporting goods stores or more or less well stocked now.
I gained some newfound respect for 7.62 / .308 recently, shooting some 30-06. I hadn't ever shot any of them. Boy, what a round the 30-06 is. They had some plate steel targets in the shape of animals, 1/4" I think, that had been just about cut in half over time.
It has some real pop to it.
Makes me want get a Mosin-Nagant. That's a car or bear stopper right there.
I love the .223's, but the 7.62 brings a lot more firepower. .223 may still be better for self defense though, with so many more rounds and pin-point accuracy for the amateur.
Beautiful day shooting some rifles!
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Also had the opportunity to shoot some .40 S&W pistol rounds I reloaded. I still have all my digits so I consider that as a definite success.
Yep, the M91/30, M39, and M44s can be good durable rifles if you look them over carefully before you buy. Just beware of "counter bored" barrel muzzles as this was often done to correct damage from over-zealous bore cleaning with steel cleaning rods (these rifles can still shoot well though).
I, like Solar, bought a couple of these Russian surplus rifles from Big 5 back in the mid/late '90s for about $70 each. One is a WWII era M91/30 that has seen more than it's share of use and abuse (the bore is dull from corrosive ammo, but the rifling is still sharp and deep enough to make it pretty accurate for a well-worn service rifle.
The other is a near mint all (but the stock) matching numbers M44 that truly looks to be unfired. The stock had been changed out at some time with a somewhat unfinished replacement (I sanded it down just a bit and went over it 3-4 times with shellac of a suitable tint).
Anyway, my first look at this series of rifles was back in the early '90s when you could by them at gun shows in lots of 10 for 100 bucks or so. A buddy and I were looking at these a bit side-ways and some old veteran type of guy said "them Mosins are shooters! We both kinda laughed and walked away (we kicked ourselves over this not too many years later).
Btw, I've had good luck with Winchester MC54RSP 180 grain SP ammo. Haven't tried any of the current European stuff yet (i.e. Wolf, B&S, etc). The mil-surplus ammo can be pretty bad when it comes to accuracy and corrosion (but hey, it's surplus right?).
I had to laugh at the Walmart fliers in last Sunday's paper. A mere 6-8 months removed from being basically anti-gun after Newtown, they are now "apocalypse / survival / armory central".
All kinds of weapons (with sexy portraits lol), AR-15 customizing kits and components (with groovy gray silhouette of the weapon and little black outlines of all the cool gadgets and gizmos where they go), "tactical" clothing such as underarmor type shirts with built-in concealed-carry pockets, utility pants, and combat boots. Tactical knives and batons.
They even had a separate flier for all this, apart from their regular one.
Hilarious, the ever-shifting politics of the guns and the profit motive.
I have a couple of Mosin-Nagant 91/30's that I LOVE. They are accurate, and surplus ammo is cheap. Just remember - if you use the surplus stuff you have to clean your rifle asap after a trip to the range. The other good thing about them is that you can always afford an extra two or three to barter with in the future.
Quote from: TheFonz on November 06, 2013, 06:26:46 PM
I have a couple of Mosin-Nagant 91/30's that I LOVE. They are accurate, and surplus ammo is cheap. Just remember - if you use the surplus stuff you have to clean your rifle asap after a trip to the range. The other good thing about them is that you can always afford an extra two or three to barter with in the future.
I love mine!
Buying it was like buying an 40 year old truck under a tarp, not really knowing what the engine or interior was like.
Only to discover it had never even been driven.
That weapon kicks ass. :thumbsup:
Quote from: TheFonz on November 06, 2013, 06:26:46 PM
I have a couple of Mosin-Nagant 91/30's that I LOVE. They are accurate, and surplus ammo is cheap. Just remember - if you use the surplus stuff you have to clean your rifle asap after a trip to the range. The other good thing about them is that you can always afford an extra two or three to barter with in the future.
Hell, most places I've seen sell them in the 150 range. Not bad at all. Definitely on my wish list.
I just discovered that Academy Sports is selling 5.56 ammo in a 30-gallon drum, 12,500 rounds, for 6,000 bucks.
That's just hilarious.
Buy that, 4 weapons, and a bunch of mags.........voila, your own armory !!
Under 10 K $, and you can be your own mini-SWAT-operation.
Quote from: AndyJackson on November 21, 2013, 10:21:57 AM
I just discovered that Academy Sports is selling 5.56 ammo in a 30-gallon drum, 12,500 rounds, for 6,000 bucks.
That's just hilarious.
Buy that, 4 weapons, and a bunch of mags.........voila, your own armory !!
Under 10 K $, and you can be your own mini-SWAT-operation.
A friend of mine was telling me about a deal they had going at one of our local gun shops around Christmas. Purchase an AR-15 and they throw in a free shotgun.
As far as training, you know, practicing with the sights and getting used to the noise, it's pretty hard to beat the .22LR. I have a .22mag Henry that is a step up, in that you shoulder it. After that, you can pretty much pick your poison. The cost of ammo, which is the point of it levels out once you
get to large bore rifle. Availability will come around on .22
I have a long range .308 precision that I would not want to cycle reloads through. That becomes your next option in target practice. Some might disagree, but I think the .3030 Marlin Classic lever action looks pretty good for that. You can shovel reloads through it, and beat the brush hunting whitetail in close forest. Not really a combat rifle, since it is tube fed. It's $600 at Costco, American made
.
Quote from: JTA on March 18, 2013, 05:09:07 PM
I've been thinking about purchasing a rifle to take down to the range for some target practice this spring. I want something larger than a 22. Got any suggestions for something that's not too expensive and uses a relatively cheap, easy to find (assuming there wasn't an ammo shortage anyway) type of ammo?
I'm sorry but I can't recommend anything cheap. You get what you pay for after all. I would recommend going to a quality gun shop and looking into what you like. A .223 or a .22-250 are great long range small caliber rifles that you can shoot with comfort and accuracy. Larger caliber rifles I would recommend a .30-06. It's probably the most versatile rifle I have found to date. You can fire low grain varmint rounds or heavier big game rounds. Plus none of the rifles I mentioned will destroy you financially unless you go with top name makers. Winchester makes a very good rifle in every size I mention but most other makers do as well.
Quote from: JTA on November 15, 2013, 07:39:37 PM
Hell, most places I've seen sell them in the 150 range. Not bad at all. Definitely on my wish list.
Ya know what you might look fr, is an old M-1 carbine, I have my dads from WWII, and it is definitely the most reliable weapon I have.
Light, reliable, accurate and versatile as well as small.
Quote from: Solar on February 24, 2014, 05:29:58 AM
Ya know what you might look fr, is an old M-1 carbine, I have my dads from WWII, and it is definitely the most reliable weapon I have.
Light, reliable, accurate and versatile as well as small.
I was actually leaning towards an SKS. Seems like a decent, somewhat inexpensive, rifle and 7.62x39 ammo is cheap and readily available.
Don't really know much about the M-1. How much you think I could get one for?
Quote from: JTA on February 24, 2014, 07:08:25 AM
I was actually leaning towards an SKS. Seems like a decent, somewhat inexpensive, rifle and 7.62x39 ammo is cheap and readily available.
Don't really know much about the M-1. How much you think I could get one for?
I don''t really know, but there are some after market used ones out there at a decent price.
I like it because ammo is pretty cheap, takes reloads without issue, though I'm talking about the original because I've put some really hot reloads through mine without any issue.
Quote from: JTA on February 24, 2014, 07:08:25 AM
I was actually leaning towards an SKS. Seems like a decent, somewhat inexpensive, rifle and 7.62x39 ammo is cheap and readily available.
Don't really know much about the M-1. How much you think I could get one for?
New ones can be had for $400-600. Used M1s -- generally 1940s vintage -- go for MUCH more, typically well over $1,000. It is not a bargain-basement weapon.
Quote from: Solar on February 24, 2014, 05:29:58 AM
Ya know what you might look fr, is an old M-1 carbine, I have my dads from WWII, and it is definitely the most reliable weapon I have.
Light, reliable, accurate and versatile as well as small.
The M-1 carbine is great but ammo can be expensive and they are becoming rare. People are starting to collect them more and more because they are a great starter rifle for kids. I currently have 3 of them so all my nephews can plink away. Their accuracy can suffer if you don't keep up on their sights as well. If you keep these things in mind you are absolutely correct on their reliability. None of mine have ever jammed. The only problem I have ever had was my own fault. I tried shooting through a worn out bolt assembly and had a pop and no kick. Could have been worse but it was definitely an eye opener. Now maintenance is my top priority.
Quote from: ranger4life on February 24, 2014, 09:50:53 PM
The M-1 carbine is great but ammo can be expensive and they are becoming rare. People are starting to collect them more and more because they are a great starter rifle for kids. I currently have 3 of them so all my nephews can plink away. Their accuracy can suffer if you don't keep up on their sights as well. If you keep these things in mind you are absolutely correct on their reliability. None of mine have ever jammed. The only problem I have ever had was my own fault. I tried shooting through a worn out bolt assembly and had a pop and no kick. Could have been worse but it was definitely an eye opener. Now maintenance is my top priority.
Yeah, that's why I mentioned after market, they aren't all that expensive, and like I said, reloading can be cheap.
But for a semi auto the weapon can't be beat, as you pointed out that even kids can shoot it.
Virtually no recoil, and quick return on target, making it one deadly weapon.