The thing with positivity and phrases such as this is there is some truth to it. I will buy it. I have fundamental issues with phrases, other positive affirmations and positvity such as this and my main problem is that it only tells a part of the story.
Let's make the assumption that there are no rules of physics, no laws or social standards to follow that are never open to question or challenge. Now, let's make the assumption that consciousness is primacy instead of existence being primacy.
Existence being primacy means that there are laws governing the universe and/or existence that is independent of one's hopes, wishes and dreams. Consciousness being primacy means that the universe and/or existential laws depend upon what the conscious mind desires and wishes. If life is what I make it then isn't life what others make as well? If this is logically true then what happens if I try to make life one way and the other people from various walks of life want life to be another way? How does life resolve this contradiction?
From my experience, the resolution to this contradiction is that this statement is true only to a certain extent and other people in life can and do have an effect on the outcomes of my life just like I can and do have an effect on the outcomes on other people's lives. Even if one is not constrained by laws that exist independently of human consciousness, I'm still constrained to the laws of the majority and how they wish to make life.
To me, positivity is overhyped and assumes one has all of this internal locus of control which is far from the truth.
The best way to find your answer, is to toss aside all you've learned on the subject, wipe the mind clear of all Gods laws, laws of nature, and wander into the wilderness and begin a path of survival.
No time constraints, stay as long as it takes to discover the answer, but I'm willing to bet it will only take as long a your provisions last.
Quote from: Solar on June 23, 2015, 04:12:22 AM
The best way to find your answer, is to toss aside all you've learned on the subject, wipe the mind clear of all Gods laws, laws of nature, and wander into the wilderness and begin a path of survival.
No time constraints, stay as long as it takes to discover the answer, but I'm willing to bet it will only take as long a your provisions last.
Your point?
Quote from: cubedemon on June 23, 2015, 07:10:06 PM
Your point?
To get back to the basics, back to primal nature. No TV, cell, no communication with the outside world, discover life again.
In other words, drop the trappings of modern life.
Quote from: Solar on June 23, 2015, 09:15:37 PM
To get back to the basics, back to primal nature. No TV, cell, no communication with the outside world, discover life again.
In other words, drop the trappings of modern life.
How does my going back to primal nature answer the question? Even if I go back to primal nature, I'm still bound by the laws of physics, existence, time, biology, etc, etc am I not? If Life is what one makes it then what is the extent of this? How far does it go? What are my boundaries and constraints exactly? Are things boundless? Can one be like Q from Star Trek? How does this maxim hold up exactly in all iterations and all cases? Is consciousness primacy or is existence primacy? Meaning is there a reality that is independent of my hopes, dreams and wishes or does my consciousness determine the fabric of reality and nature itself?
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 10:16:55 AM
How does my going back to primal nature answer the question? Even if I go back to primal nature, I'm still bound by the laws of physics, existence, time, biology, etc, etc am I not? If Life is what one makes it then what is the extent of this? How far does it go? What are my boundaries and constraints exactly? Are things boundless? Can one be like Q from Star Trek? How does this maxim hold up exactly in all iterations and all cases? Is consciousness primacy or is existence primacy? Meaning is there a reality that is independent of my hopes, dreams and wishes or does my consciousness determine the fabric of reality and nature itself?
Maybe I misunderstood your premise. I thought you were referring to the constraints of social norms.
Yeah, if you want to remove laws of physics, and your imagination your only limt, then sure, you can be Q.
Here in reality, we call that an acid trip. :wink:
Quote from: Solar on June 24, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Maybe I misunderstood your premise. I thought you were referring to the constraints of social norms.
Yeah, if you want to remove laws of physics, and your imagination your only limt, then sure, you can be Q.
Here in reality, we call that an acid trip. :wink:
No, you didn't misunderstand. I questioned further based upon what you said. Your answer confuses me further.
How can one remove the laws of physics and how can my imagination be my only limit?
The claim is "Life is what YOU make it!" What I am asking is how does this hold up in all iterations no matter the circumstance? What are the premises and rationale that lead to this? When I observe social norms and nature I don't grasp how this is so. For this to be true, one would literally have to be Q from Star Trek otherwise one is constrained by the summit of his knowledge, tools one has and what one can procure, and what the laws of reality allow given with all of these things.
The claim or statement makes no sense. It is true that one has some control of life but to claim this as a total truth. I cannot buy because if it was then life would be fair and everyone would live a life of total joy and have everything they needed and wanted. Based upon empirical observations and what I can derive this is not the case whatsoever. People are starving in Africa. Natural disasters happen. Murder, Pedophilia and other evils happen. Diseases and Genetic deformities exist. Some people end up in group homes or institutions. If all this is part of the natural order of life then by logic this statement can't be true or else we have a contradiction.
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 11:31:44 AM
No, you didn't misunderstand. I questioned further based upon what you said. Your answer confuses me further.
How can one remove the laws of physics and how can my imagination be my only limit?
The claim is "Life is what YOU make it!" What I am asking is how does this hold up in all iterations no matter the circumstance? What are the premises and rationale that lead to this? When I observe social norms and nature I don't grasp how this is so. For this to be true, one would literally have to be Q from Star Trek otherwise one is constrained by the summit of his knowledge, tools one has and what one can procure, and what the laws of reality allow given with all of these things.
The claim or statement makes no sense. It is true that one has some control of life but to claim this as a total truth. I cannot buy because if it was then life would be fair and everyone would live a life of total joy and have everything they needed and wanted. Based upon empirical observations and what I can derive this is not the case whatsoever. People are starving in Africa. Natural disasters happen. Murder, Pedophilia and other evils happen. Diseases and Genetic deformities exist. Some people end up in group homes or institutions. If all this is part of the natural order of life then by logic this statement can't be true or else we have a contradiction.
No, life is not fair, was never meant to be.
Look at the basics. We eat living creatures for sustenance, slave to plants, for without them, we would starve, so we cultivate and keep them healthy for our very existence, therefore, we are plants caretakers.
Life is a series of hurdles, without failure, we'd never experience accomplishment.
Without pain, we'd have no measure of pleasure.
No, life is not fair, and we all deal with it the best we can, so life is what you make it. You can either see yourself as a victim, or tackle it head on to the best of your abilities.
It never gets easier, but hopefully as time goes by, you gain tools to make it a little less tough.
Perspective.....
Quote from: Solar on June 24, 2015, 11:41:03 AM
No, life is not fair, was never meant to be.
Look at the basics. We eat living creatures for sustenance, slave to plants, for without them, we would starve, so we cultivate and keep them healthy for our very existence, therefore, we are plants caretakers.
Life is a series of hurdles, without failure, we'd never experience accomplishment.
Without pain, we'd have no measure of pleasure.
No, life is not fair, and we all deal with it the best we can, so life is what you make it. You can either see yourself as a victim, or tackle it head on to the best of your abilities.
It never gets easier, but hopefully as time goes by, you gain tools to make it a little less tough.
Perspective.....
Fascinating, I think I sort of understand what you're saying. If one looks at the evolutionary history of man he shouldn't be at the apex. There are animals whom are stronger and faster. It is because we learned to use our brains to build better tools and to learn over the centuries he has progressed. This learning to overcome challenges is how mankind evolved to who he is today. By giving a person everything, he can't use what he has evolved with over the eons. This growing learning and overcoming challenges is a part of who man is today and without that he whithers, slowly decays and dies.
Struggle, challenge, obstacles and overcoming them is how man advanced.
This makes me wonder something. If what I say is true then to conquer a people then the best way is to give them everything their hearts desire. If an alien invasion was to occur they can conquer us by giving us all that we need and want.
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 11:56:47 AM
Fascinating, I think I sort of understand what you're saying. If one looks at the evolutionary history of man he shouldn't be at the apex. There are animals whom are stronger and faster. It is because we learned to use our brains to build better tools and to learn over the centuries he has progressed. This learning to overcome challenges is how mankind evolved to who he is today. By giving a person everything, he can't use what he has evolved with over the eons. This growing learning and overcoming challenges is a part of who man is today and without that he whithers, slowly decays and dies.
Struggle, challenge, obstacles and overcoming them is how man advanced.
This makes me wonder something. If what I say is true then to conquer a people then the best way is to give them everything their hearts desire.
Yes my friend, you just described socialism/Marxism leading to full blown communism.
The very reason we are against the left, they want to remove human nature from the equation, in turn making us all non thinking drone like creatures.
Personally, I Prefer the challenges life puts in my path.
Quote from: Solar on June 24, 2015, 12:17:39 PM
Yes my friend, you just described socialism/Marxism leading to full blown communism.
I did? Hmmm. Wow! Interesting.
Out of curiosity, do you have any recommendations for those like me on the Autism spectrum on what we can do to be successful and functional in society? If you do my friend, may I have some?
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 12:32:58 PM
I did? Hmmm. Wow! Interesting.
Out of curiosity, do you have any recommendations for those like me on the Autism spectrum on what we can do to be successful and functional in society? If you do my friend, may I have some?
:biggrin:
Fish oil?
I too have an issue. When I was young, up until my 40s, I suffered severe ADHD, with an emphasis on "H" for Hyper, I was so distracted, I got on my own nerves.
So hyper, that I couldn't keep track of items, and had to replace them regularly.
I discovered fish oil in my 30s, for me, it was an amazing cure, my IQ rose an easy 40 points (I had already been tested at 160+ IQ) whenever I took it, and it still works today.
Though what cured my ADHD, was when a deer jumped on my Harley at about 50 mph and I hit the pavement so hard, it crushed all the fillings in my teeth, resulting in a severe concussion and memory loss for a year.
I never recovered certain aspects of my former personality, such as the ability to rattle off 50 or more jokes, yes, I was the comedian at party's, but I don't know what else I lost, since I can't remember what I had.
That was about 10 years ago (I think?), and I still suffer time issues, where an event that happened 5 years ago, seems like it was yesterday.
I also lost my electrician skills, where things used to come naturally, now require extreme concentration.
Though it wasn't a total loss. It used to be a virtual impossibility to sit and type without getting distracted in thought, now I own this forum and typing comes as second nature, and that would be a breeze, if not for the exacerbated symptoms of dyslexia, another side effect of the accident.
Yeah, so give salmon oil a shot, it can't hurt.
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 12:32:58 PM
I did? Hmmm. Wow! Interesting.
Out of curiosity, do you have any recommendations for those like me on the Autism spectrum on what we can do to be successful and functional in society? If you do my friend, may I have some?
You sound to me like your high functioning. Out of curiosity, there are a lot of people with what your dealing with, you would think there would be a lot more help for you. Are you able to get any therapy to help you with the social problem?
Quote from: Dori on June 24, 2015, 05:31:19 PM
You sound to me like your high functioning. Out of curiosity, there are a lot of people with what your dealing with, you would think there would be a lot more help for you. Are you able to get any therapy to help you with the social problem?
I am trying to find someone who specializes in Autism Spectrum Disorders. It is difficult though to find one in my area.
Honestly, I don't need therapy. What I need is two fold: a. social skills training and b. answers to certain questions I have. Here is where I have a problem with employment. What employers seem to want are extroverted and social type personalities. Even if I didn't have Autism I would have issues. If I presented myself as a personality type that I am not, wouldn't I be dishonest with the employer? I would be selling them a false bill of goods.
It's a double bind for me. I be honest and remain unemployed and on SSDI or I become dishonest, get employed and get off of SSDI.
So how do I be my honest and true self and be employed? How do I satisfy the conditions of remaining virtuous, honest, becoming and staying employed and being my true self? This is why I need help from society and/or therapist to not only teach me social skills training but to navigate this contradiction.
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 05:47:58 PM
I am trying to find someone who specializes in Autism Spectrum Disorders. It is difficult though to find one in my area.
Honestly, I don't need therapy. What I need is two fold: a. social skills training and b. answers to certain questions I have. Here is where I have a problem with employment. What employers seem to want are extroverted and social type personalities. Even if I didn't have Autism I would have issues. If I presented myself as a personality type that I am not, wouldn't I be dishonest with the employer? I would be selling them a false bill of goods.
It's a double bind for me. I be honest and remain unemployed and on SSDI or I become dishonest, get employed and get off of SSDI.
So how do I be my honest and true self and be employed? How do I satisfy the conditions of remaining virtuous, honest, becoming and staying employed and being my true self? This is why I need help from society and/or therapist to not only teach me social skills training but to navigate this contradiction.
I don't know what state you are in, but maybe you could contact a large hospital that gets grants that study social skills. You may be able to get some information of what is available to you.
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 05:47:58 PM
I am trying to find someone who specializes in Autism Spectrum Disorders. It is difficult though to find one in my area.
Honestly, I don't need therapy. What I need is two fold: a. social skills training and b. answers to certain questions I have. Here is where I have a problem with employment. What employers seem to want are extroverted and social type personalities. Even if I didn't have Autism I would have issues. If I presented myself as a personality type that I am not, wouldn't I be dishonest with the employer? I would be selling them a false bill of goods.
It's a double bind for me. I be honest and remain unemployed and on SSDI or I become dishonest, get employed and get off of SSDI.
So how do I be my honest and true self and be employed? How do I satisfy the conditions of remaining virtuous, honest, becoming and staying employed and being my true self? This is why I need help from society and/or therapist to not only teach me social skills training but to navigate this contradiction.
Be honest, not all employers want chatty, bubbly employees. There are jobs out there that require solitude, no interaction with others.
Decide what it is you want to do, what your skill sets are, come up with several options, from programmer, to assembly line work, mail clerk for the post office etc.
But by all means, do not lie, you'll get fired if you can't pull it off.
Oh, excuse the typos, spellcheck failed earlier. :glare: :biggrin:
Quote from: Solar on June 24, 2015, 01:19:10 PM
:biggrin:
Fish oil?
I too have an issue. When I was young, up until my 40s, I suffered severe ADHD, with an emphasis on "H" for Hyper, I was so distracted, I got on my own nerves.
So hyper, that I couldn't keep track of items, and had to replace them regularly.
I discovered fish oil in my 30s, for me, it was an amazing cure, my IQ rose an easy 40 points (I had already been tested at 160+ IQ) whenever I took it, and it still works today.
Though what cured my ADHD, was when a deer jumped on my Harley at about 50 mph and I hit the pavement so hard, it crushed all the fillings in my teeth, resulting in a severe concussion and memory loss for a year.
I never recovered certain aspects of my former personality, such as the ability to rattle off 50 or more jokes, yes, I was the comedian at party's, but I don't know what else I lost, since I can't remember what I had.
That was about 10 years ago (I think?), and I still suffer time issues, where an event that happened 5 years ago, seems like it was yesterday.
I also lost my electrician skills, where things used to come naturally, now require extreme concentration.
Though it wasn't a total loss. It used to be a virtual impossibility to sit and type without getting distracted in thought, now I own this forum and typing comes as second nature, and that would be a breeze, if not for the exacerbated symptoms of dyslexia, another side effect of the accident.
Yeah, so give salmon oil a shot, it can't hurt.
Addendum: The IQ test was long before the accident, I've no doubt I've lost a considerable amount of deductive ability and reasoning skills, though other areas of the mind compensate, there is still no making up for the loss.
But like I said, fish oil (Omega 3 fatty acids) are a God send in helping clear up a cloudy thought process.
I know it doesn't work for everyone, but I encourage everyone to try it for at least a week, it can't hurt.
Quote from: Solar on June 24, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Maybe I misunderstood your premise. I thought you were referring to the constraints of social norms.
Yeah, if you want to remove laws of physics, and your imagination your only limt, then sure, you can be Q.
Here in reality, we call that an acid trip. :wink:
I don't know about acid trips, but I actually
am Q and it ain't your call to give it to nobody else, see?
(*puts up widdle boxing gloves, bravely braces for the suckerpunch*)That part about being bound only by an imagination unconstrained by social norms, or my imagination my only limit? Sure. I'm down with that. And that positivity stuff, too. You betcha. Under Obama I'm as positive as positive can get. :ttoung:
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.fotki.com%2F1_p%2Crqrwbwdqdbrggrrxbqfqsbrwqdbw%2Cvi%2Fswbggrtrrxktqtggsb%2F1%2F1595431%2F10163839%2Fa_frank_exchange_of_viewpoints-vi.png&hash=2672f3d233a0dc20cdd317b3cf91e47c85eaa206)
Quote from: Solar on June 24, 2015, 07:16:14 PM
Be honest, not all employers want chatty, bubbly employees. There are jobs out there that require solitude, no interaction with others.
Decide what it is you want to do, what your skill sets are, come up with several options, from programmer, to assembly line work, mail clerk for the post office etc.
But by all means, do not lie, you'll get fired if you can't pull it off.
Oh, excuse the typos, spellcheck failed earlier. :glare: :biggrin:
Solar, no intention of being rude but you're using a form of reductionism meaning oversimplification of the problem. Let's say an employer asks "Why do you want to work here?" Let's say a person doesn't want to work at all but wants to play video games all day. He knows this is not feasible and has to work. If he answers truthfully that he doesn't but knows he has to, to support himself will he become employed? No, employers don't want this answer. This means he has to give a dishonest answer.
So,
Be honest and remain unemployed therefore satisfying the condition of if one refuses to work he doesn't eat.
Be dishonest, gain possible employment, and be immoral and sinful by being dishonest.
Either way it's a catch-22. This is another perfect example of reductionism in my paper I posted here entitled "My problems with Personality Advocates." How does one be noble and good?
Here's what I don't grasp about the maxim of life being unfair and socialism. Is socialism a form of unfairness? If life is unfair, socialism is a form of unfairness, it is wrong to complain about the unfairness of life and do something about the unfairness of life then why complain about socialism and fight it to the level you all fight it?
It's inconsistent and it makes no sense. Here's why
By complaining about socialism and assuming it is a form of unfairness and by complaining and fighting it then you want your own version of fairness. Why is it ok to fight for fairness in one instance but not other instances? I don't get it.
Realistically, most people live together in a society. If the maxim of Life is what YOU make it is true then this means one has to assume one has control over every aspect of his life, right? If not, why? If yes and assuming this maxim applies to everyone across the planet then life is how the majority of people and leaders chooses to make it, correct? With laws, social standards, etc? If this is true then the maxim of life is what you make it can't be true since what one can and can't do limited by what the majority and leaders decide.
Therefore by logic, we can say that It is not true that Life is what you make it. If this is true then by logic it is somewhat false to state that Life is what you make it.
Quote from: cubedemon on June 28, 2015, 07:12:27 AM
Here's what I don't grasp about the maxim of life being unfair and socialism. Is socialism a form of unfairness? If life is unfair, socialism is a form of unfairness, it is wrong to complain about the unfairness of life and do something about the unfairness of life then why complain about socialism and fight it to the level you all fight it?
It's inconsistent and it makes no sense. Here's why
By complaining about socialism and assuming it is a form of unfairness and by complaining and fighting it then you want your own version of fairness. Why is it ok to fight for fairness in one instance but not other instances? I don't get it.
So IF I pay you 50$ an hour. You have no problems if I as the government take 45$ of that away from you every hour you work. Along with
every thing you do with your money (5$) has to be ok by me. I only find that life is unfair if you sit back and do nothing to improve your own life or the way you live.
Quote from: walkstall on June 28, 2015, 07:35:45 AM
So IF I pay you 50$ an hour. You have no problems if I as the government take 45$ of that away from you every hour you work. Along with every thing you do with your money (5$) has to be ok by me. I only find that life is unfair if you sit back and do nothing to improve your own life or the way you live.
My Answer:
If your scenario is considered unfair, unfairness is a part of life, and if we must accept the unfairness of life as truth that is non-negatable and if all maxims must apply in all instances then since life is unfair one must apply the unfairness of life to this as well. So, if we apply the maxim of life is unfair then one should have no problem with the government taking $45.00 and the government telling a person what he or she can or can't do with the $5.00 since the maxim must be applied in all instances to remain consistent.
To reject your scenario means one can't accept that life is unfair in all instances. Therefore, there are cases in which not only one must accept that life is fair but one must demand fairness and fight for fairness.
In summary, either life is unfair in all instances therefore one should have no problem with said scenario or one must reject the maxim and accept that life is not only fair in some cases but one must make life fair in some cases as well.
Since you believe life is unfair and you believe that your scenario is unfair and one must demand fairness and that life must be fair in this case you violate the law of non-contradiction.
Can you prove that anyone and everyone can improve one's own life or the way one lives no matter the circumstances of the self and of external conditions?
What must one improve one's life to? What is the rubric and criteria that we're going by?
Quote from: cubedemon on June 28, 2015, 09:06:21 AM
My Answer:
If your scenario is considered unfair, unfairness is a part of life, and if we must accept the unfairness of life as truth that is non-negatable and if all maxims must apply in all instances then since life is unfair one must apply the unfairness of life to this as well. So, if we apply the maxim of life is unfair then one should have no problem with the government taking $45.00 and the government telling a person what he or she can or can't do with the $5.00 since the maxim must be applied in all instances to remain consistent.
To reject your scenario means one can't accept that life is unfair in all instances. Therefore, there are cases in which not only one must accept that life is fair but one must demand fairness and fight for fairness.
In summary, either life is unfair in all instances therefore one should have no problem with said scenario or one must reject the maxim and accept that life is not only fair in some cases but one must make life fair in some cases as well.
Since you believe life is unfair and you believe that your scenario is unfair and one must demand fairness and that life must be fair in this case you violate the law of non-contradiction.
I do not believe life is unfair! Only people can make it unfair!I am not a very educated person, I do in fact have a mild learning problem from my younger years is school. But God had given me many tool to over come that and move on in my life. A problems are not a set back for me, it's just one more challenge to move on in life.
QuoteI do not believe life is unfair! Only people can make it unfair!
First, please don't yell at me. There's no need for that.
Second, If people can and do make life unfair and you accept this as truth then how can you logically claim to not believe that life is unfair? I don't follow your reasoning.
QuoteI am not a very educated person, I do in fact have a mild learning problem from my younger years is school.
I have learning problems as well impacted by my communication issues caused by my Autism.
QuoteBut God had given me many tool to over come that and move on in my life.
Looking at history of people on the planet and people now does God give everyone the tools to overcome everything and anything in life? God chooses what he will do and whom he will save does he not?
QuoteA problems are not a set back for me, it's just one more challenge to move on in life.
Can you prove that anyone and everyone can improve one's own life or the way one lives no matter the circumstances of the self and of external conditions?
What must one improve one's life to? What is the rubric and criteria that we're going by?
Can anyone and everyone be in control and take control of one's life in all iterations no matter what circumstances?
Quote from: cubedemon on June 28, 2015, 09:49:03 AM
Looking at history of people on the planet and people now does God give everyone the tools to overcome everything and anything in life?
If you found yourself alone in the middle of a forest, or a desert, how would you survive? What are the things you would need in order to survive? How would you go about getting them?
Quote from: cubedemon on June 28, 2015, 09:49:03 AM
First, please don't yell at me. There's no need for that.
Second, If people can and do make life unfair and you accept this as truth then how can you logically claim to not believe that life is unfair? I don't follow your reasoning.
I have learning problems as well impacted by my communication issues caused by my Autism.
Looking at history of people on the planet and people now does God give everyone the tools to overcome everything and anything in life? God chooses what he will do and whom he will save does he not?
Can you prove that anyone and everyone can improve one's own life or the way one lives no matter the circumstances of the self and of external conditions?
What must one improve one's life to? What is the rubric and criteria that we're going by?
Can anyone and everyone be in control and take control of one's life in all iterations no matter what circumstances?
IF I were yell at you, everything would be in caps. What you call yelling I call emphasis my way of be nice.
I know you have Autism. But if you don't get past that! You will have a hard time in the real world.
Your looking for utopia, Garden of Eden or heaven. (on earth)
Quote from: Dori on June 28, 2015, 10:40:28 AM
If you found yourself alone in the middle of a forest, or a desert, how would you survive? What are the things you would need in order to survive? How would you go about getting them?
Answer: I will quote Francis Bacon. To command nature it must be obeyed. I have to conform to the nature of myself and to my external environment. One has to obtain food to have energy and it must be the correct food that is nutritious and non-poisonous.
What this means is that the statement holds up but only to what the nature of myself and my external environment allows. If the nature of a person does not allow that person to be able to conform to the nature of the current natural environment then more than likely if they can't leave on their own and can't receive assistance from someone else they will eventually die as is part of the nature of life in our cosmological existence.
Is life what I make it? To a certain extent yes, otherwise it is not what I make it since I am bounded by the nature of myself and by the nature of what is outside of myself. Dori, that is my answer.
QuoteIF I were yell at you, everything would be in caps. What you call yelling I call emphasis my way of be nice.
My mistake. I misunderstood.
QuoteI know you have Autism. But if you don't get past that! You will have a hard time in the real world.
Therein lies the issue right there. It assumes that I am able to get past that whatsoever especially without other people's assistance to do so. When I mean assistance, I don't mean welfare what I mean is to be taught how to fish and have certain questions answered.
QuoteYour looking for utopia, Garden of Eden or heaven. (on earth)
No, I am not as utopia, garden of eden, or heaven is something that is abstract and open to interpretation. What I am looking for is absolute truth and knowing what is correct in various areas and why.
Quote from: Solar on June 24, 2015, 11:41:03 AM
No, life is not fair, was never meant to be.
Look at the basics. We eat living creatures for sustenance, slave to plants, for without them, we would starve, so we cultivate and keep them healthy for our very existence, therefore, we are plants caretakers.
Life is a series of hurdles, without failure, we'd never experience accomplishment.
Without pain, we'd have no measure of pleasure.
No, life is not fair, and we all deal with it the best we can, so life is what you make it. You can either see yourself as a victim, or tackle it head on to the best of your abilities.
It never gets easier, but hopefully as time goes by, you gain tools to make it a little less tough.
Perspective.....
Thing is though "life is what you make it" is not totally true. Life has constraints and we're all bounded by laws of time, space and nature(nature of ourselves and our external environment) and social norms and dictates. Even if one removed all of these constraints and people were like Q, life is what others make it as well. I'm still bound by the majority's wishes, dictates and demands.
It is true that no Utopia exists and let's assume that no Utopia can exist. By logic, if none of us can make a Utopia then this proves even further that we all have constraints to life and existence and the idea life is what we make it is not totally true.
Walkstall said "I know you have Autism. But if you don't get past that! You will have a hard time in the real world. "
Thing is Autism can't be just gotten past. This is the very nature of my condition. If my brain is sick and deformed then how can my very nature allow me to just get past it? I have senses that take in information as input and my brain is the processor that transforms it into output. So, my brain is processing input as garbage won't the outputs be garbage. So, how can I used my disabled and deformed brain if my very disabled and deformed brain and the very nature of it got me into my situation? How can I pull myself out if my very brain and thoughts are the ones that led me to my life outcomes of today?
This is why I've concluded that if I'm to get past it then what I would need is other people's assistance mainly guidance, instruction and others answering of my questions. In addition, I have motor coordination problems and an all or nothing, literal based thinking. How do I overcome these things using my very thinking? Telling me to use common sense and critical thinking will not work because my brain is different from the Neurotypical brain which means your red is my green.
This is what I mean when personal responsibility advocates do a form of reductionism meaning they oversimplify things to the point of distortion. Walkstall says to get past it or really to get over it and pull myself by my own bootstraps. How? How do I do this?
If I could do it then logically I would have done it. Let's say that I'm a selfish person and I only want to benefit myself and only care about myself which is not true. Looking at it logically, wouldn't I do the thing(s) that would bring me the most gain and the least amount of pain. Being employed pays way more than any kind of welfare or disability benefits. If I could overcome my autism and pull myself by bootstraps then why I haven't I done so to become gainfully employed. With welfare benefits, it is called TANF and one can only receive them for a limited time anyway. So, with welfare being temporary wouldn't it behoove those on welfare to not stay on it to long?
Let's say it is slothfulness or laziness. Why would I be slothful or lazy? How would my being lazy or slothful be beneficial to me. If laziness, slothfulness or any other vice brings harm to themselves why would anyone choose to harm themselves? If everyone could be personally responsible for themselves and they could make their own life then wouldn't they logically do so especially if a person is selfish and only cares about himself because aren't these things more likely to bring benefit to themselves? So, why would anyone choose not to bring benefit to themselves and do these things if these things do indeed bring benefits? If selfishness is so reviled these days then why would anyone choose selfishness?
This is the problem with the belief system of personal responsibility advocates. Because of the reductionist nature of the belief system, it oversimplifies things to the point of distortion that lead to inconsistencies and contradictions.
Quote from: cubedemon on July 01, 2015, 08:52:15 AMThis is the problem with the belief system of personal responsibility advocates.
I think your hung up on that phrase. Yes life is what you make it, within the restraints your condition has placed on you. Not every one can be independent and they need help maneuvering in this life. In that sense, it's true that life isn't fair, and there are no guarantees in the outcome. All you can do is the best that you can with the tools that you were given.
Personal responsibility advocates are talking about people who are physically and mentally capable of taking care of themselves without government handouts. We have a social system to help people in need, and unfortunately, there are too many who are in the system who shouldn't be.
Quote from: Dori on July 01, 2015, 10:36:25 AM
I think your hung up on that phrase. Yes life is what you make it, within the restraints your condition has placed on you. Not every one can be independent and they need help maneuvering in this life. In that sense, it's true that life isn't fair, and there are no guarantees in the outcome. All you can do is the best that you can with the tools that you were given.
Personal responsibility advocates are talking about people who are physically and mentally capable of taking care of themselves without government handouts. We have a social system to help people in need, and unfortunately, there are too many who are in the system who shouldn't be.
You're right, all I can do is the best I can. I have put together an application for a part time desktop support specialist position for my county government. I looked at the qualifications and salaries for the different positions for the IT jobs for my county's government.
I think have a hypothesis about what the bottom means. First, the bottom is different for different people. It depends upon what they're qualified for and the less they're qualified for the lower the salary. I have to look at the qualifications and see what they require. If I'm not qualified I have to look for one with less qualifications which means a lower salary.
Where I'm qualified is my bottom. What I'm supposed to do is when I get in I do an excellent job for them and then later ask for a full time position. Keep an eye out for other positions in the county government workplace and if needed obtain more skills.
Am I at least on the right track as to how things actually work?
Yeah, you're right I am getting hung up on the phrase. That is an Autistic trait I'm trying to work on which is difficult. I tend to perseverate on things. It's difficult for me to let things go and I can obsess on things especially things that don't make sense to me.
Thing is, I don't want just a handout or welfare. What I want is to be shown the way to go. That's the main problem with welfare and disability. One is made dependent on an external entity especially when it is not needed in some cases. What people need is to be shown the actual path and shown what they need to actually do so they can do it.
I believe I can function in society and I have come a long way since my childhood but the problem I'm experiencing in my real life is I have reached a plateau in which I'm functional enough in which others don't think I need further assistance yet I need a bit more assistance to being fully functional.
The idea has similarities to the concept of what is called The Uncanny Valley. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley
I am almost functional but not quite there as demonstrated by the user who goes by the name Taxed. He believes I don't have Autism at all and examining things from his point of view and attempting to take his perspective (which is very difficult for me) I can understand.
a. I have a college degree
b. I use complete sentences with pedantic type language
c. Even solar has admitted that I do come across as intelligent but with a lack of "common sense" I'm just paraphrasing
d. I've admitted to having some jobs in the past.
It can come across as though I don't need assistance and I'm possibly malingering meaning faking based upon past evidence and what I say and how I say it. Therein lies the problem and even voc rehab could not understand at first how I needed assistance until they really got to know me.
Quote from: quiller on June 27, 2015, 07:33:36 AM
I don't know about acid trips, but I actually am Q and it ain't your call to give it to nobody else, see? (*puts up widdle boxing gloves, bravely braces for the suckerpunch*)
That part about being bound only by an imagination unconstrained by social norms, or my imagination my only limit? Sure. I'm down with that. And that positivity stuff, too. You betcha. Under Obama I'm as positive as positive can get. :ttoung:
Do you not remember the character "Q" from the 2nd Generation Star Trek?
The best character to ever come out of the series, the omnipotent Q, a spoiled, bored brat of what is the equivalent of a God.
Quote from: cubedemon on June 27, 2015, 08:16:45 PM
Solar, no intention of being rude but you're using a form of reductionism meaning oversimplification of the problem.
Of course i's over simplified, but it's up to you to understand simplicity, not a failure on my part.
QuoteLet's say an employer asks "Why do you want to work here?" Let's say a person doesn't want to work at all but wants to play video games all day. He knows this is not feasible and has to work. If he answers truthfully that he doesn't but knows he has to, to support himself will he become employed? No, employers don't want this answer. This means he has to give a dishonest answer.
As an employer, it's my job to spot the liar, even the most skilled bull shiter has a track record, one that will quickly expose him for the liar he is, and he won't get the job.
QuoteSo,
Be honest and remain unemployed therefore satisfying the condition of if one refuses to work he doesn't eat.
No, if you are so stupid as to answer as does a child, then you do not deserve the job.
As I said in an earlier post, research the company, point out all the positives of the company, especially where they help the community in obscure ways.
Everyone wants to be recognized for the good they do, even the human resources agent interviewing you.
QuoteBe dishonest, gain possible employment, and be immoral and sinful by being dishonest.
Either way it's a catch-22. This is another perfect example of reductionism in my paper I posted here entitled "My problems with Personality Advocates." How does one be noble and good?
No it's not! Being brutally honest is simply stupid, and blaming it on autism is a cop out.
Is telling an employer you want to work for them because "One" of the reasons is they are good for the community, as opposed to stating the obvious, you need a paycheck?
The latter is simply stupid! Of course you need a paycheck to survive, or you wouldn't be there and they know it.
You need to convince them you chose to offer them your skill set to them, as opposed to ABC corp down the street because they don't support the community as well.
None of this is lying. But telling a potential employer you want a job because you need money is nothing short of stupid.
Do I make myself clear?
Quote from: cubedemon on June 28, 2015, 07:32:28 AM
Realistically, most people live together in a society. If the maxim of Life is what YOU make it is true then this means one has to assume one has control over every aspect of his life, right? If not, why? If yes and assuming this maxim applies to everyone across the planet then life is how the majority of people and leaders chooses to make it, correct? With laws, social standards, etc? If this is true then the maxim of life is what you make it can't be true since what one can and can't do limited by what the majority and leaders decide.
Therefore by logic, we can say that It is not true that Life is what you make it. If this is true then by logic it is somewhat false to state that Life is what you make it.
No! Only an idiot follows the crowd. Life is what "YOU" make it, not what the majority decides is good.
Quote from: cubedemon on July 01, 2015, 08:52:15 AM
Thing is though "life is what you make it" is not totally true. Life has constraints and we're all bounded by laws of time, space and nature(nature of ourselves and our external environment) and social norms and dictates. Even if one removed all of these constraints and people were like Q, life is what others make it as well. I'm still bound by the majority's wishes, dictates and demands.
It is true that no Utopia exists and let's assume that no Utopia can exist. By logic, if none of us can make a Utopia then this proves even further that we all have constraints to life and existence and the idea life is what we make it is not totally true.
Walkstall said "I know you have Autism. But if you don't get past that! You will have a hard time in the real world. "
Thing is Autism can't be just gotten past. This is the very nature of my condition. If my brain is sick and deformed then how can my very nature allow me to just get past it? I have senses that take in information as input and my brain is the processor that transforms it into output. So, my brain is processing input as garbage won't the outputs be garbage. So, how can I used my disabled and deformed brain if my very disabled and deformed brain and the very nature of it got me into my situation? How can I pull myself out if my very brain and thoughts are the ones that led me to my life outcomes of today?
This is why I've concluded that if I'm to get past it then what I would need is other people's assistance mainly guidance, instruction and others answering of my questions. In addition, I have motor coordination problems and an all or nothing, literal based thinking. How do I overcome these things using my very thinking? Telling me to use common sense and critical thinking will not work because my brain is different from the Neurotypical brain which means your red is my green.
This is what I mean when personal responsibility advocates do a form of reductionism meaning they oversimplify things to the point of distortion. Walkstall says to get past it or really to get over it and pull myself by my own bootstraps. How? How do I do this?
If I could do it then logically I would have done it. Let's say that I'm a selfish person and I only want to benefit myself and only care about myself which is not true. Looking at it logically, wouldn't I do the thing(s) that would bring me the most gain and the least amount of pain. Being employed pays way more than any kind of welfare or disability benefits. If I could overcome my autism and pull myself by bootstraps then why I haven't I done so to become gainfully employed. With welfare benefits, it is called TANF and one can only receive them for a limited time anyway. So, with welfare being temporary wouldn't it behoove those on welfare to not stay on it to long?
Let's say it is slothfulness or laziness. Why would I be slothful or lazy? How would my being lazy or slothful be beneficial to me. If laziness, slothfulness or any other vice brings harm to themselves why would anyone choose to harm themselves? If everyone could be personally responsible for themselves and they could make their own life then wouldn't they logically do so especially if a person is selfish and only cares about himself because aren't these things more likely to bring benefit to themselves? So, why would anyone choose not to bring benefit to themselves and do these things if these things do indeed bring benefits? If selfishness is so reviled these days then why would anyone choose selfishness?
This is the problem with the belief system of personal responsibility advocates. Because of the reductionist nature of the belief system, it oversimplifies things to the point of distortion that lead to inconsistencies and contradictions.
I suggest you reread what I said and take it to heart.
Your perspective to life is what is most important, not mine or anyone elses. If you choose to be a victim, then that's exactly what you are, if you want to see the bright side of all life has to offer, including obstacles to overcome, then like me, you too will be blessed.
It's all a matter of perspective. For ever obstacle overcome, a blessed outcome was the result.
But if you see life as one big obstacle, and avoid most of it, as simply a way of existing, then you're missing out on the gift of life.
That gift is conquering life and making it yours.
QuoteOf course i's over simplified, but it's up to you to understand simplicity, not a failure on my part.
Why? Why is it up to me to understand simplicity and not up to you to make sure your communication is clear and understood by the receiver?
QuoteAs an employer, it's my job to spot the liar, even the most skilled bull shiter has a track record, one that will quickly expose him for the liar he is, and he won't get the job.No, if you are so stupid as to answer as does a child, then you do not deserve the job.
Why?
QuoteAs I said in an earlier post, research the company, point out all the positives of the company, especially where they help the community in obscure ways.
Duly noted!
QuoteEveryone wants to be recognized for the good they do, even the human resources agent interviewing you.
True
QuoteNo it's not! Being brutally honest is simply stupid, and blaming it on autism is a cop out.
Part of being on the Autism Spectrum is being developmentally delayed. My brain doesn't develop typically like the neurotypical leaving me befuddled on certain things. You say it is stupid. I wouldn't say that as an answer as I know it would not get me the job. I know what but know not why.
QuoteIs telling an employer you want to work for them because "One" of the reasons is they are good for the community, as opposed to stating the obvious, you need a paycheck?
If I believed the former in my heart as true and stated it then I would be honest, noble and true. If I did not believe the former in my heart as true and stated the former then I would be dishonest and dishonorable. The true and honest answer is the latter if one believes the latter as truth. If one says something to what is not and gives false information and knowing that it was false then one has lied and is a liar.
QuoteThe latter is simply stupid! Of course you need a paycheck to survive, or you wouldn't be there and they know it.
You need to convince them you chose to offer them your skill set to them, as opposed to ABC corp down the street because they don't support the community as well.
Okay, I understand what you're saying now. Now, my confusion on this is resolved. What I'm supposed to do is find an employer who I support and offer my skills set to them or find a reason to support them that I believe to be true and legit. You see, I didn't consider this, realize this and understand this. Now, I do. What you need to understand is obvious to you is not obvious to me. I appreciate the information you gave and your help to resolve my confusion.
QuoteNone of this is lying. But telling a potential employer you want a job because you need money is nothing short of stupid.
Do I make myself clear?
Abundantly! Yes, it makes perfect sense. What you're saying is don't just apply to anyone and everyone but cull the herd and select the ones who share my causes, values and whom I vibe with by looking them up online and calling as well to ask questions. Thanks! I appreciate your response on this and it helps a lot.
Quote from: cubedemon on July 02, 2015, 12:28:00 PM
Why? Why is it up to me to understand simplicity and not up to you to make sure your communication is clear and understood by the receiver?
It was clear, it's not my responsibility to make special allowances for you.
Learn this, it's a life lesson.
QuoteWhy?
Why what?
QuoteIf I believed the former in my heart as true and stated it then I would be honest, noble and true. If I did not believe the former in my heart as true and stated the former then I would be dishonest and dishonorable. The true and honest answer is the latter if one believes the latter as truth. If one says something to what is not and gives false information and knowing that it was false then one has lied and is a liar.
Again, this is common sense with a dash of etiquette.
You wouldn't tell someone they look ugly wearing that dress would you?
Being brutally honest is not how one goes through life.
QuoteOkay, I understand what you're saying now. Now, my confusion on this is resolved. What I'm supposed to do is find an employer who I support and offer my skills set to them or find a reason to support them that I believe to be true and legit. You see, I didn't consider this, realize this and understand this. Now, I do. What you need to understand is obvious to you is not obvious to me. I appreciate the information you gave and your help to resolve my confusion.
Abundantly! Yes, it makes perfect sense. What you're saying is don't just apply to anyone and everyone but cull the herd and select the ones who share my causes, values and whom I vibe with by looking them up online and calling as well to ask questions. Thanks! I appreciate your response on this and it helps a lot.
Good, you're making headway. :thumbsup:
You would never work for someone that goes against your values, I know I wouldn't, which is why I was always in business for myself.
If I can't back a product 100%, then I can't sell it with total conviction, let alone sleep at night.
QuoteIt was clear, it's not my responsibility to make special allowances for you.
True and I appreciate that you did :smile:
QuoteLearn this, it's a life lesson.
I have.
QuoteAgain, this is common sense with a dash of etiquette.
You wouldn't tell someone they look ugly wearing that dress would you?
Being brutally honest is not how one goes through life.
Which means that I can secure your agreement that at times dishonesty is noble and honesty is a vice. Correct?
QuoteGood, you're making headway. :thumbsup:
You would never work for someone that goes against your values, I know I wouldn't, which is why I was always in business for myself.
If I can't back a product 100%, then I can't sell it with total conviction, let alone sleep at night.
Agreed :smile:
Quote from: Solar on July 02, 2015, 11:44:34 AM
No! Only an idiot follows the crowd. Life is what "YOU" make it, not what the majority decides is good.
http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/survival-tips/'20-rules-to-live-by-as-america-goes-to-hell-'/
18: When in Rome, look, smell and act like the locals. Don't stand out. Don't gawk.
Okay, what is the correct way that one is supposed to go? Am I supposed to follow rule 18 created by the author Silverdeth, posted by quiller and agreed upon by you here
http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/survival-tips/'20-rules-to-live-by-as-america-goes-to-hell-'/msg241843/#msg241843
or does only an idiot follow rule number 18?
When one is in a given area one has to follow the social standards of the area that one is in. It is the majority that determines what these standards are.
For example, eye contact is a required social standard in the USA. As an Autistic, this presents problems for me as this causes pain for me. Can I be exempted from it? My experience is no.
It's the majority living and interacting together in a given area(s) which determine the social norms overtime. They're the ones who determine what the penalty is for violating these norms including ostracizing you. Employers can decide not to here you. People can choose not to buy from you.
In addition, one's ability to make one's life is shaped by one's nature and one's experiences. The idea that one has absolute control of one's life and can absolutely shape it to whatever one desires makes absolutely no sense given the empirical reality that we all live in especially with the social veneer, laws of one's own nature, laws of society, and laws of existence.
To claim that "Life is what "YOU" make it = True" can't be so since constraints from many facets of life do exist.
By the way, the phrase not true does not equal false.
Let's say we have the proposition that it is not true that some birds are birds that can fly.
Another way of saying it is "There are some birds that cannot fly."
So,what I'm saying is that there are times that life is not what one makes it.
Even if one left society and went to another one, one is still constrained to their laws, norms and laws of existence as well. Even if one lived like the Unabomber in a cabin isolated from society one is still constrained to one's own nature and the nature of existence. To claim that life is what one makes it as being true and absolute is absurd and has no basis in logic and rationality whatsoever.
Even Q from Star Trek had his powers constrained by the other Q's in the Q continuum. To claim that life is what one makes it is to claim that one has no internal or external constraints has no basis in reason.
If this proposition that you have is true than by logic reasoning life would be fair, one would have utopia and everyone would be able to get what they wanted and needed.
Either, we must accept that life is unfair and truth and reject the absoluteness of your proposition or one can accept it as truth and therefore we can create a fair and just society and everyone can get what they need and want. To accept both propositions as true is to accept inconsistency in your belief system.
Quote from: cubedemon on July 03, 2015, 08:07:58 AM
http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/survival-tips/'20-rules-to-live-by-as-america-goes-to-hell-'/
18: When in Rome, look, smell and act like the locals. Don't stand out. Don't gawk.
Okay, what is the correct way that one is supposed to go? Am I supposed to follow rule 18 created by the author Silverdeth, posted by quiller and agreed upon by you here
http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/survival-tips/'20-rules-to-live-by-as-america-goes-to-hell-'/msg241843/#msg241843
or does only an idiot follow rule number 18?
When one is in a given area one has to follow the social standards of the area that one is in. It is the majority that determines what these standards are.
For example, eye contact is a required social standard in the USA. As an Autistic, this presents problems for me as this causes pain for me. Can I be exempted from it? My experience is no.
It's the majority living and interacting together in a given area(s) which determine the social norms overtime. They're the ones who determine what the penalty is for violating these norms including ostracizing you. Employers can decide not to here you. People can choose not to buy from you.
In addition, one's ability to make one's life is shaped by one's nature and one's experiences. The idea that one has absolute control of one's life and can absolutely shape it to whatever one desires makes absolutely no sense given the empirical reality that we all live in especially with the social veneer, laws of one's own nature, laws of society, and laws of existence.
To claim that "Life is what "YOU" make it = True" can't be so since constraints from many facets of life do exist.
By the way, the phrase not true does not equal false.
Let's say we have the proposition that it is not true that some birds are birds that can fly.
Another way of saying it is "There are some birds that cannot fly."
So,what I'm saying is that there are times that life is not what one makes it.
Even if one left society and went to another one, one is still constrained to their laws, norms and laws of existence as well. Even if one lived like the Unabomber in a cabin isolated from society one is still constrained to one's own nature and the nature of existence. To claim that life is what one makes it as being true and absolute is absurd and has no basis in logic and rationality whatsoever.
Even Q from Star Trek had his powers constrained by the other Q's in the Q continuum. To claim that life is what one makes it is to claim that one has no internal or external constraints has no basis in reason.
If this proposition that you have is true than by logic reasoning life would be fair, one would have utopia and everyone would be able to get what they wanted and needed.
Either, we must accept that life is unfair and truth and reject the absoluteness of your proposition or one can accept it as truth and therefore we can create a fair and just society and everyone can get what they need and want. To accept both propositions as true is to accept inconsistency in your belief system.
NO!!! You Figure It Out This Time....
Quote from: Solar on July 02, 2015, 11:55:03 AM
I suggest you reread what I said and take it to heart.
Your perspective to life is what is most important, not mine or anyone elses. If you choose to be a victim, then that's exactly what you are, if you want to see the bright side of all life has to offer, including obstacles to overcome, then like me, you too will be blessed.
It's all a matter of perspective. For ever obstacle overcome, a blessed outcome was the result.
But if you see life as one big obstacle, and avoid most of it, as simply a way of existing, then you're missing out on the gift of life.
That gift is conquering life and making it yours.
Therein lies the issue right here. I did reread what you said and I question it and I dispute it. It doesn't matter what my perspective to life is. My consciousness doesn't make the fabric of time and space. My consciousness is not primacy. It is existence that is primacy. Even if consciousness is primacy I'm still bound and things are still bound by conscious minds.
If I think I'm extremely intelligent and others do not it doesn't matter what I think. People are going to believe I'm not intelligent whether I think I am or I am not even if my IQ score says that I am. This affects how I will be treated in a given society including being gainfully employed.
Let's go back to the employer's question of "Why do you want to work here?" What you gave as an answer is but a societal construct including what is rudeness and brutal honesty. Society's standards determines what actions one is supposed to take in given situations.
It doesn't matter what my wishes, hopes, dreams and prayers are; reality is absolute and is independent of these things.
Quote from: Solar on July 03, 2015, 08:14:32 AM
NO!!! You Figure It Out This Time....
No, it's not up to me to figure it out. The burden of proof is upon you to prove your claims are valid and true through logical consistency and through empirical evidence. It is up to you to create well constructed, clear, logical claims which you have the responsibility for backing up especially if someone questions the validity of the claim.
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.fotki.com%2F1_p%2Crsqktbqsrkdrfssxbqfqsbrwqdbw%2Cvi%2Frbtwwdffsxbswfkdtgb%2F1%2F1595431%2F12754338%2Fblm090401-vi.gif&hash=e11b12464cbc77c60ddd7a22801d19c1760861b2)
Ask any liberal child. It's never, ever their fault. People are hateful if they don't agree with you. You DESERVE greatness, so why aren't others bestowing it?
Golly, we're just a bunch of monsters around here for smacking young trolls, aren't we?
Quote from: cubedemon on July 03, 2015, 08:38:52 AM
No, it's not up to me to figure it out. The burden of proof is upon you to prove your claims are valid and true through logical consistency and through empirical evidence. It is up to you to create well constructed, clear, logical claims which you have the responsibility for backing up especially if someone questions the validity of the claim.
Why are you under the illusion , me, or anyone else owes you a damned thing?
Let this be a lesson in life. You nor anyone else dictates what I do, how I respond, or whether I respond at all.
Like I said, I gave you an answer, it's not incumbent upon me to walk you by the hand explaining the meaning of each and every word or iteration thereof.
In other words, figure it out on your own.
I owe you nothing, I have a forum to run, and your demands come across like that of a spoiled child demanding answers to a toddlers imperative and jussive mood of "Whhhhhyyy?".
Quote from: Solar on July 03, 2015, 08:56:03 AM
Why are you under the illusion , me, or anyone else owes you a damned thing?
Let this be a lesson in life. You nor anyone else dictates what I do, how I respond, or whether I respond at all.
Like I said, I gave you an answer, it's not incumbent upon me to walk you by the hand explaining the meaning of each and every word or iteration thereof.
In other words, figure it out on your own.
I owe you nothing, I have a forum to run, and your demands come across like that of a spoiled child demanding answers to a toddlers imperative and jussive mood of "Whhhhhyyy?".
Reminds me of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyJPM2jIwjQ
Quote from: quiller on July 03, 2015, 09:18:23 AM
Reminds me of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyJPM2jIwjQ
:biggrin:
Oh God, I still have the LP.
Yeah, but I'm not the one claiming air is nothing more than a source for filling volley balls and basket balls.
Though I get what you're saying, and it's a phrase I use regularly to answer obvious questions, with the response of "Why is there air?"
Sadly, most that receive this reply, aren't old enough to understand the reference.
However, this reminds me of another example in dealing with libs. "Awwrightttt, Who threw the bullet, in the furnace?"
Libs invariably cop to the truth out of pure stupidity, as in, "Hey, I didn't throw no bullet in the furnace! And STOP TALKING ABOUT MY MOTHER!"
Quote from: Solar on July 03, 2015, 09:33:11 AM
:biggrin:
Oh God, I still have the LP.
Yeah, but I'm not the one claiming air is nothing more than a source for filling volley balls and basket balls.
Though I get what you're saying, and it's a phrase I use regularly to answer obvious questions, with the response of "Why is there air?"
Sadly, most that receive this reply, aren't old enough to understand the reference.
However, this reminds me of another example in dealing with libs. "Awwrightttt, Who threw the bullet, in the furnace?"
Libs invariably cop to the truth out of pure stupidity, as in, "Hey, I didn't throw no bullet in the furnace! And STOP TALKING ABOUT MY MOTHER!"
This troll's no different than so many parasites wanting lifelong handouts and never a challenge to their beliefs. He demands answers when the solution is solely within himself.
And I just won a bet with myself that you still had that album. :lol: :lol:
Quote from: quiller on July 03, 2015, 09:41:32 AM
This troll's no different than so many parasites wanting lifelong handouts and never a challenge to their beliefs. He demands answers when the solution is solely within himself.
And I just won a bet with myself that you still had that album. :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Haven't listened to it in more than forty years, but it's humor is indelibly marked within my memory.
Despite the claims against him as an individual, he is the standard in which every comedian should strive for.
IMO, he is the epitome of true comedy.
Of, and Cube isn't a troll, he actually suffers a loss of mental acuity, by no fault of his own.
What I'm attempting is a form of "tough love", by forcing him to fend for himself.
One can only learn through trial and failure.
Quote from: Solar on July 03, 2015, 08:56:03 AM
Why are you under the illusion , me, or anyone else owes you a damned thing?
Let this be a lesson in life. You nor anyone else dictates what I do, how I respond, or whether I respond at all.
Like I said, I gave you an answer, it's not incumbent upon me to walk you by the hand explaining the meaning of each and every word or iteration thereof.
In other words, figure it out on your own.
I owe you nothing, I have a forum to run, and your demands come across like that of a spoiled child demanding answers to a toddlers imperative and jussive mood of "Whhhhhyyy?".
Again, the burden of proof for any claim made rests upon the claimant. If you claim that an invisible pink unicorn exists the burden of proof rests upon you to prove your claim. It's not up to me to prove that it does not.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html
For instance, can you prove that all and any obstacle is surmountable by anyone and everyone no matter what their circumstances?
Can you prove that anyone and everyone can figure out life on their own with no guidance and instruction whatsoever?
Can you prove that all people across the globe have internal locus of control with no external constraints whatsoever?
Can you prove with logic and empirical evidence that in all iterations that life is both unfair and that life is what we make it? How can both of these propositions occur at the exact time in the exact same instance?
You're laboring under assumptions in which a person is questioning the validity to their claim. If people are to accept what you all claim as gospel truth and you all want it enacted as public policy and in the social veneer as well then you should be prepared to have your truths and propositions questioned and examined. You should be open to questioning and examination. The person doing the examinations could be laboring under faulty premises and in some of the cases I have.
There's something ironic to this. I've questioned feminists and their belief system as well. I have asked them if we live in a rape culture then why are rapists reviled and locked up especially male rapists? They've said many times that no one is entitled to anything from any woman including their body. I've said I accept that but if this is true then why do you feel obligated for a man to pay for you on a date?
What's funny is when questioned even when trying to understand is that both of your groups have different outlooks and beliefs yet your emotional reactions and behaviors are the same. There's the ad hominem attacks i.e. calling me a whiner and spoiled child. feminists calling me a misogynist. More curse words are involved. one of your members increasing your font size. I've seen feminists do this to. becoming annoyed or angry.
It's like you all are attached to your beliefs and depend upon them so heavily that the beliefs themselves become sacred in of themselves and are not open to questioning even to grasp things better. Why? Why are both of your groups so emotionally attached to your beliefs no matter if they contain contradictions or are fallacious or not.
I think I understand now what someone told me when people in general are logical but psycho-logical. People don't look for logical truth in of itself like the great philosopher Socrates. People are emotionally attached to their beliefs, they depend upon them and the beliefs help to make up a core part of who the person.
Solar, the idea of overcoming obstacles is a part of who you are. This is a part of your identity and the DNA of your soul. Fascinating!
QuoteOf, and Cube isn't a troll, he actually suffers a loss of mental acuity, by no fault of his own.
What I'm attempting is a form of "tough love", by forcing him to fend for himself.
Maybe I do. It is logically possible. If it turns out that I'm wrong somewhere I will fix it someway, somehow because I have my own emotional attachments as well and that is to truth, logic, rationality,etc.
If I'm wrong somewhere, then I am wrong.
Quote from: quiller on July 03, 2015, 09:41:32 AM
This troll's no different than so many parasites wanting lifelong handouts and never a challenge to their beliefs. He demands answers when the solution is solely within himself.
And I just won a bet with myself that you still had that album. :lol: :lol:
Let's say I do suffer from mental acuity as Solar suggests. What if it is my Autism that causes this? If this is the case then how can the solution be solely be within myself? A human being like a computer has input, processor and output. Input comes in through different senses that I have. If the processor is screwed up like Solar suggests then won't the inputs (Information) be transformed into faulty data which will come out as garbage through my outputs?
Solar, if my mind is pure garbage and purely screwed up with loss of mental acuity to the point of dysfunction then how can I use this same mental acuity to fix myself? How? How will tough love work for me as you suggest? How do you get from A to B to C?
If I could figure things out on my own then why I haven't I done so already? If the best thing for a person is to figure things out on his own and this maximizes what this person can be then why wouldn't they do what is best for themselves especially if they're selfish? I would be better off being employed than receiving any kind of welfare. The welfare now is called TANF and one doesn't receive as much and one can never receive or earn more. One is limited on how long one can stay on welfare.
With respect to SSDI, one doesn't get paid as much as one would if he was employed and again one can never increase how much one gets in SSDI. Logically, the best choice is for me to be employed either by an employer or be self-employed. Why don't I do what is the most logical course of action that would be the most beneficial to myself especially if one considers me extremely selfish?
Answer: There are those who cannot do so, such as myself, on their own no matter what tough love is given.
If everyone could do so then by logic wouldn't everyone do so? If everyone could overcome any obstacle they encounter then why wouldn't they do so especially if it is in their best interest to do so?
Answer: It's because not every obstacle is surmountable by everyone and anyone.
If every person could surmount every obstacle thrown their way then the burden of proof is upon you to prove this as so. Otherwise Solar, I will have to question your mental acuity as well.
If everyone could do as you suggest then wouldn't life be fair or at least become more fairer and just? If everyone could overcome obstacles then wouldn't everyone be able to get what they needed on their own without government, socialism, welfare, or disability? Why wouldn't they do this?
Answer: Because life isn't fair and not everyone will get what they want or need no matter how hard they try to do it on their own. Some people not being able to overcome obstacles is part of the unfairness of life so logically solar your claims make absolutely no sense. If they do make sense, again, the burden of proof is upon you as the interlocutor to prove your case.
Quote from: cubedemon on July 03, 2015, 10:17:57 AM
Again, the burden of proof for any claim made rests upon the claimant. If you claim that an invisible pink unicorn exists the burden of proof rests upon you to prove your claim. It's not up to me to prove that it does not.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html
Not really understanding your point over my statement:
"No! Only an idiot follows the crowd. Life is what "YOU" make it, not what the majority decides is good."
I'll ask you this. Do you have core values you refuse to compromise?
The answer you're looking for from me, is your very own, the very way you answer that question, will explain what I said.
I can't make it any clearer, without posting the Ten ommandments.
QuoteFor instance, can you prove that all and any obstacle is surmountable by anyone and everyone no matter what their circumstances?
Can you prove that anyone and everyone can figure out life on their own with no guidance and instruction whatsoever?
Can you prove that all people across the globe have internal locus of control with no external constraints whatsoever?
Can you prove with logic and empirical evidence that in all iterations that life is both unfair and that life is what we make it? How can both of these propositions occur at the exact time in the exact same instance?
Of course I could, but the answer is not in words, rather actions, Grasshopper.
QuoteYou're laboring under assumptions in which a person is questioning the validity to their claim. If people are to accept what you all claim as gospel truth and you all want it enacted as public policy and in the social veneer as well then you should be prepared to have your truths and propositions questioned and examined. You should be open to questioning and examination. The person doing the examinations could be laboring under faulty premises and in some of the cases I have.
So you question my belief that murder committed during a robbery is wrong, that torturing animals isn't sick?
These are core values, these are issues that no sane individual with a conscience will waver on.
QuoteThere's something ironic to this. I've questioned feminists and their belief system as well. I have asked them if we live in a rape culture then why are rapists reviled and locked up especially male rapists? They've said many times that no one is entitled to anything from any woman including their body. I've said I accept that but if this is true then why do you feel obligated for a man to pay for you on a date?
You're dealing with an emotional issue, one where they completely eliminate all critical thinking.
QuoteWhat's funny is when questioned even when trying to understand is that both of your groups have different outlooks and beliefs yet your emotional reactions and behaviors are the same. There's the ad hominem attacks i.e. calling me a whiner and spoiled child. feminists calling me a misogynist. More curse words are involved. one of your members increasing your font size. I've seen feminists do this to. becoming annoyed or angry.
Using your logic, you just accused me of being an illogical femminazi.
See how that works?
I never called you a child, but that's the excuse you used to make your claim.
Keep that shit up, and you lose all credibility. Oh wait, let me yell that so you have something else to Whine about.
Keep that shit up, and you lose all credibility!QuoteIt's like you all are attached to your beliefs and depend upon them so heavily that the beliefs themselves become sacred in of themselves and are not open to questioning even to grasp things better. Why? Why are both of your groups so emotionally attached to your beliefs no matter if they contain contradictions or are fallacious or not.
Yes, that's what being Conservative is all about, having a clear and distinct understanding of Right and Wrong.
QuoteI think I understand now what someone told me when people in general are logical but psycho-logical. People don't look for logical truth in of itself like the great philosopher Socrates. People are emotionally attached to their beliefs, they depend upon them and the beliefs help to make up a core part of who the person.
Then you need to study his philosophy more indepth, because you completely misunderstand what he is saying.
I believe he is referencing religious belief.
Conservatives on the other hand depend on critical thinking, the very thing Socrates was noted for.
QuoteSolar, the idea of overcoming obstacles is a part of who you are. This is a part of your identity and the DNA of your soul. Fascinating!
Yes, it's the very essence of life.
Ask yourself, what is life, other than a series of obstacles to be either harnessed/tamed or overcome.
What would life be like without a single obstacle? Think about that.
Quote from: cubedemon on July 03, 2015, 11:46:44 AM
If I could figure things out on my own then why I haven't I done so already? If the best thing for a person is to figure things out on his own and this maximizes what this person can be then why wouldn't they do what is best for themselves especially if they're selfish? I would be better off being employed than receiving any kind of welfare. The welfare now is called TANF and one doesn't receive as much and one can never receive or earn more. One is limited on how long one can stay on welfare.
With respect to SSDI, one doesn't get paid as much as one would if he was employed and again one can never increase how much one gets in SSDI. Logically, the best choice is for me to be employed either by an employer or be self-employed. Why don't I do what is the most logical course of action that would be the most beneficial to myself especially if one considers me extremely selfish?
Answer: There are those who cannot do so, such as myself, on their own no matter what tough love is given.
If everyone could do so then by logic wouldn't everyone do so? If everyone could overcome any obstacle they encounter then why wouldn't they do so especially if it is in their best interest to do so?
Answer: It's because not every obstacle is surmountable by everyone and anyone.
If every person could surmount every obstacle thrown their way then the burden of proof is upon you to prove this as so. Otherwise Solar, I will have to question your mental acuity as well.
I never questioned you mental acuity, I thought it was the equivilient of a term you used.
My bad if I misunderstood.
As to your claim of overcoming obstacles, many are simply impossible, like defying gravity, so we find workarounds, that is what sets man apart from all specie, we have the ability of reason and critical thought.
You need to not take everything so literal.
QuoteIf everyone could do as you suggest then wouldn't life be fair or at least become more fairer and just? If everyone could overcome obstacles then wouldn't everyone be able to get what they needed on their own without government, socialism, welfare, or disability? Why wouldn't they do this?
Life isn't fair, wasn't designed to be. Just ask a blind person, yet they find ways to still make the best of life, and I have a feeling you can't seem to find the simplest of joys, though I could be wrong, but it seems you strive for some kind of perfection.
QuoteAnswer: Because life isn't fair and not everyone will get what they want or need no matter how hard they try to do it on their own. Some people not being able to overcome obstacles is part of the unfairness of life so logically solar your claims make absolutely no sense. If they do make sense, again, the burden of proof is upon you as the interlocutor to prove your case.
Exactly! Life is not fair, it's incumbent upon the individual to make the best of their station in life.
It's why our culture survived under charity, it's what Christians believe as a major part of their religion, that we have a responsibility to mankind.
It's why the idiot (not a derogatory term) was able to sell pencils on the corner for his meager existence, because people had an obligation to help, not the govt, but the individual, it is the compassionate thing to do.
Quote"No! Only an idiot follows the crowd. Life is what "YOU" make it, not what the majority decides is good."
Sighs in frustration. If one is required to make eye contact as part of the social norms including obtaining employment then one has to do as the Romans do no matter if I can or cannot unless one leaves society.
QuoteI'll ask you this. Do you have core values you refuse to compromise?
No, Some values have greater precedent than others. Example: I value truth and honesty. To save someone's life may require one to lie. Not so simple.
QuoteThe answer you're looking for from me, is your very own, the very way you answer that question, will explain what I said.
My answer is we're all bounded by differing internal and external constraints so my conclusion is life is somewhat, what we make it to be. Some can work around these constraints and some cannot. My answer is it is very nuanced and not so simple.
QuoteI can't make it any clearer, without posting the Ten ommandments.
Irrelevant to whether life is what you make it or not.
QuoteOf course I could, but the answer is not in words, rather actions, Grasshopper.
I will take this as a no.
QuoteSo you question my belief that murder committed during a robbery is wrong, that torturing animals isn't sick?
Depends upon what one is robbing and whom you murder. What if it was for national security? By your logic of torturing animals then you must agree that Enhanced interrogation techniques is wrong since man is a mammal and all mammals are animals .
QuoteThese are core values, these are issues that no sane individual with a conscience will waver on.
unless they conflict
QuoteYou're dealing with an emotional issue, one where they completely eliminate all critical thinking.
Yes, my friend they do.
QuoteUsing your logic, you just accused me of being an illogical femminazi.
See how that works?
I never called you a child, but that's the excuse you used to make your claim.
Keep that shit up, and you lose all credibility. Oh wait, let me yell that so you have something else to Whine about. Keep that shit up, and you lose all credibility!
I apologize for offending you.
QuoteYes, that's what being Conservative is all about, having a clear and distinct understanding of Right and Wrong.
Which is one of the things I'm attempting to do.
QuoteThen you need to study his philosophy more indepth, because you completely misunderstand what he is saying.
you're right
QuoteConservatives on the other hand depend on critical thinking, the very thing Socrates was noted for.
Which is one of the things I'm attempting to do. I will get better with time and practice.
QuoteYes, it's the very essence of life.
You know what, I actually agree.
QuoteAsk yourself, what is life, other than a series of obstacles to be either harnessed/tamed or overcome.
What would life be like without a single obstacle? Think about that.
The answer is stagnation. We would become like the Eloi in The Time Machine.
Quote from: cubedemon on July 05, 2015, 11:25:06 AM
Sighs in frustration. If one is required to make eye contact as part of the social norms including obtaining employment then one has to do as the Romans do no matter if I can or cannot unless one leaves society.
No, Some values have greater precedent than others. Example: I value truth and honesty. To save someone's life may require one to lie. Not so simple.
So you place more value on truth over the life of another?
You have some serious soul searching to do.
QuoteMy answer is we're all bounded by differing internal and external constraints so my conclusion is life is somewhat, what we make it to be. Some can work around these constraints and some cannot. My answer is it is very nuanced and not so simple.
So yes, life is what "YOU" make it out to be. Sure, it may not meet your standards of what you perceive it should be, but then, even the richest men in the world are still bound by their own personal, physical and mental limitations.
So again, you work within the parameters life has set for you and you make it work, find joy in the little things and don't focus on things you have no control over.
QuoteIrrelevant to whether life is what you make it or not.
I will take this as a no.
You asked:
"Can you prove with logic and empirical evidence that in all iterations that life is both unfair and that life is what we make it? How can both of these propositions occur at the exact time in the exact same instance?"
The answer is obvious. If you suddenly become wheelchair bound, (not fair) you make the best of your situation.
QuoteDepends upon what one is robbing and whom you murder. What if it was for national security? By your logic of torturing animals then you must agree that Enhanced interrogation techniques is wrong since man is a mammal and all mammals are animals .
First you need to understand the legal definition of murder: "
Unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being"
Second, torturing an animal serves no purpose, none, only a sick bastard would do such a heinous act.
And no, I do not see Enhanced interrogation techniques as torture, because saving the life or live in this case is for the greater good, therefore it serves a purpose.
Quoteunless they conflict
They don't.
QuoteI apologize for offending you.
You didn't, I was making a point. It takes a lot to offend me, in fact, I can't even think of an example.
QuoteYou know what, I actually agree.
The answer is stagnation. We would become like the Eloi in The Time Machine.
Good illustration. Or that of a single cell amoebae.
But then, maybe the simplest form of life has it's own issues as well. :biggrin:
QuoteSo you place more value on truth over the life of another?
You have some serious soul searching to do.
Hell no. I value life of others more than truth which is why it is ok to lie sometimes. That contradiction has been resolved.
QuoteSo yes, life is what "YOU" make it out to be. Sure, it may not meet your standards of what you perceive it should be, but then, even the richest men in the world are still bound by their own personal, physical and mental limitations.
So again, you work within the parameters life has set for you and you make it work, find joy in the little things and don't focus on things you have no control over.
Answer A: I took a step back and I think we're both saying the same thing. I think what's happening is that I'm getting caught up in the semantics on this. What you're saying is the statement includes the limitations and parameters. Basically, you're implying this.
QuoteYou asked:
"Can you prove with logic and empirical evidence that in all iterations that life is both unfair and that life is what we make it? How can both of these propositions occur at the exact time in the exact same instance?"
The answer is obvious. If you suddenly become wheelchair bound, (not fair) you make the best of your situation.
See Answer A.
QuoteFirst you need to understand the legal definition of murder: "Unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being"
Who is the definer of this legal definition?
QuoteSecond, torturing an animal serves no purpose, none, only a sick bastard would do such a heinous act.
I get what you're saying.
QuoteAnd no, I do not see Enhanced interrogation techniques as torture, because saving the life or live in this case is for the greater good, therefore it serves a purpose.
Yes, they are torture no matter their purpose. Question is are there cases in which torture is moral just like are there cases in which lying is moral.
This is what we've established so far. Human life is more valuable than truth and one must lie at times to save lives. There are cases in which torture is moral especially when one is protecting the national security of this nation or protecting our nation's citizen's lives. We've established these things and that there is a greater good. Based upon this rationality and logic, if one is starving in the streets and sees no way to obtain food than it is moral for one to take from the store especially if they're unemployable. If a person can't survive except to steal then by logic one can steal.
By this logic, those who can't make it whatsoever can go ahead and steal whatever it is they need to survive since human life and saving lives is one of the greater goods and greater goods exist.