How much electrical engineering knowledge does one need for a solar setup?  What are the basics they should know?

Quote from: taxed on December 11, 2021, 02:53:37 AMHow much electrical engineering knowledge does one need for a solar setup?  What are the basics they should know?

This is a really good question.
First off, be prepared  to give up modern conveniences. But this can be good, because you'll appreciate them even more as you build your system.
Ask yourself, could you have been an early pioneer in the early 1800s? Not the romantic ideal, but the actual struggle of a new frontier? If yes, keep reading...

To answer the question, I can describe it in three simple aspects.

(1) Absolutely must have some handyman skills.
(2) Think of it as early horse and buggy days and the car was just invented. One needed to have an understanding of a myriad of things.
Animals had a connection with man, so the two had a symbiotic relationship, both could sense the others needs, the car had no way of communicating, so you needed certain skills for this brave new world.

(3) An congenital/inborn understanding and appreciation of the world around you. In other words, unless you're born rich and can afford to hire someone to do everything for you, stay in the damn city, this is for the person who isn't afraid of any challenge, in fact seeks challenge.

I may get a bit redundant, but only because it's important one understands nothing goes as planned, this is not a perfect system by any means.

Sure, you can higher Tesla to develop a system for you, or another solar company to install a system, but unless you have that indigenous understanding of mechanics, electrical, and chemistry, you have a serious learning curve ahead of you.
One needs to understand how having 10.000 watts on the roof, doesn't really mean you'll ever get that much to use.
There are serious conversion losses, be it through the chemical process of the battery, or friction, the loss through heat, sun and resistance through hotter days, so one may calculate out a toaster, or say pump by reading the running amps/current, wattage draw, but there is startup loss, starting anything drawing a load requires as much as three times the running current draw, though usually brief, it can be a lot.
Say a large draw being demanded while you already have everything in the house running, and your well pump kicks on, a good system can probably deal with it and start the pump, but what if your pump is beginning to fail?

You need to be able to sense the issue, because even though the inverter is rated for say, 7000 watts surge, it is only rated for a short time and if you can't sense the issue, stay home in the city where they supply everything.

One can develop a sense for this, and if you have a natural ability, you'll develop a second sense for your system, you'll develop the ability to know when too much is being drawn simply by looking at the color rendition through the lights, or the weakness of appliances drawing power.
These are things people take for granted when you live on the grid, the power is always perfect, unless it's out.

On solar you aren't afforded such a pleasure. When inverting DC battery battery power to AC there is a lot of things occurring, the voltage is dropping in the battery, the inverter needs to read the voltage and convert on the fly, and the bigger the load, the more the inverter has to work, so you may see a dimming of lights, or an appliance may slow down or act differently.
But create too much of a load, and heat starts to build up, and heat alone increases the load on the system.
Which brings in a secondary power source, the diesel generator. Not gasoline or propane, nope, you'll be lucky to get a 1000 hours out of gas, so spend the money and buy diesel, you'll probably get anywhere from 20,000 to as high as 50,000 hrs, depending.
Depending on what, you ask? Brand, output, maintenance, sizing. If you aren't willing to learn that you will never be able to set it and forget it, that you will always be in a permanent state of maintenance, and this isn't the life for you.

Suddenly the battery voltage drops, the inverter has to work harder and suddenly the lights go out.
"But my Inverter is designed to handle loads like that?" No, it was designed to handle normal loads as long as the battery voltage is maintained, but as you demand more of your system, the harder the system has to work.
Battery voltage vs load, the more load demands more work from the inverter, more work means more heat, more heat means more voltage loss. In other words if you don't have a basic understanding of electricity, this is not the life for you.
So one needs to see this in their third eye, so to speak, you need to make a connection with your new environment and if you don't solar is not for you. (Am I being redundant, on, is this the life for you?)

Cursed as a hyper redheaded kid would be a boon later in life, not the curse I thought it was, having boundless energy finally had a purpose.
I was lucky, every job I had throughout my life was leading to this day, I know, some may not believe in a higher power, but everything I've ever done was a learning experience for the day I would start my life away from the city. All thanks to God, and yes, I've literally lead a blessed life.
Either that, or I was too stupid to see I was being punished. You may have sensed, I'm a total optimist.

I had every job construction had to offer, learned it all and yes, it was all thanks to God. You know what I'm talking about if you've been following these articles.
So venturing into the wilderness was sooo exciting, not scary in the least, and if you have any fear of doing it all by yourself, or trying to prove daddy wrong, stay the Hell home, especially if you don't have the money to do it right, you'll wind up spending more just to survive.

I bought raw land, no neighbors, no utilities, but I had creeks and springs, so that was half the battle. But your every free moment is eaten up by prepping for the winter ahead.
Point being, this will be life here on out, always trying to get ahead of everything just so you can enjoy what you have. There will never really be a moments rest, but that's all part of the experience.
I wanted to know what it was like to actually be a man without the externalities of BS city life, to feel what it was like to face the ultimate challenge of being self sufficient.
Man, those people who set out to conquer the wilderness? They were either crazy, or insane. I'm just nuts, but those men had more balls than anyone I've ever met in my lifetime, and yes, I envy them.

So just know this, if you plan on following my path, you better be a bit a bit crazy and simply not give a damn what others think. They may laugh at you, but it's out of pure jealousy, because if you succeed, you win.
If you truly listen to God, you'll know if this is the life for you. Constantly stay in contact with God, ask for guidance, he won't steer you wrong. If you don't have faith, you won't enjoy the rid ahead.

But be prepared, the challenges never end. Is that the life you seek?
I hope so, I wouldn't change a moment, just wish I had more time ahead to enjoy it all. This was my destiny, my entire life's path was leading to this moment, I hope you enjoy the ride, just remember to stop and smell the roses, or skunk, depending.
Sorry for rambling, but as I wrote, I remembered all the wonderful little moments that all of this afforded me, made me tear up.

Did I scare you, or is this a challenge you're willing to take? If you're second guessing out of fear, then stay in the city where it's safe...

Being Solar's Toy it seems only appropriate I put in my 2 cents.

I met Solar back in late 2008 on a dating app (That is another story.)  We clicked immediately over the phone and arranged our first meeting.  A very public place between where we both lived, a Sam's Club.  He was very up front about the fact that I needed to be the one who would move as he had no intention of leaving his mountain.  If I wasn't up for the lifestyle and trials that would come with this then this would be our one and only "date".  Since I am here it is pretty obvious that I made the choice and actually moved in with Solar 4 months after we met leaving my brand new home I had bought early in 2008.

That being said it has not always been easy.  I doubled my commute and briefly lost contact with my daughters.  I learned that a blow dryer or flat iron had limited use.  There was a period where the water pipes froze and I was either bathing with melted snow on the woodstove or going in early to work to shower there. There is always work to be done.  With 2 big and 1 little dog the house is never the spotless home I used to keep. 

I learned to stockpile kindling over the summer and stack wood to keep the house warm in the winter. (I still make Solar nervous when using my chain saw.)

Then there was of course the learning curve on the solar/generator system.  I have learned to change oil, fuel filters, and basic maintenance of generators. I can check the water level on the batteries which is about the only thing I can actually do with the solar system.  I have gotten good at ordering new invertors, chargers, red dye diesel fuel for the generator (which has more than doubled thanks to Biden) and understand the cost of a new battery bank - it is not cheap but it is a choice.  There is a certain satisfaction knowing we have power when others around us do not.

I have learned that sometimes you need to make logical choices.  The nice large refrigerator I like is not good for our system but the new propane one will help keep my battery bank healthy.  I stock on food and even attempt a garden every year - I do not have a green thumb.

Solar is correct it is constant - I look out and see the pile of wood that needs to be moved closer to the house and my kindling pile needs to be resupplied....  it does seem to never end.  But I wouldn't trade the life I have now for the life I had.  Because here with Solar I am alive and truly living.  Toy

Solars Toy
Being Solar's Toy it seems only appropriate I put in my 2 cents.

I met Solar back in late 2008 on a dating app (That is another story.)  We clicked immediately over the phone and arranged our first meeting.  A very public place between where we both lived, a Sam's Club.  He was very up front about the fact that I needed to be the one who would move as he had no intention of leaving his mountain.  If I wasn't up for the lifestyle and trials that would come with this then this would be our one and only "date".  Since I am here it is pretty obvious that I made the choice and actually moved in with Solar 4 months after we met leaving my brand new home I had bought early in 2008.

That being said it has not always been easy.  I doubled my commute and briefly lost contact with my daughters.  I learned that a blow dryer or flat iron had limited use.  There was a period where the water pipes froze and I was either bathing with melted snow on the woodstove or going in early to work to shower there. There is always work to be done.  With 2 big and 1 little dog the house is never the spotless home I used to keep. 

I learned to stockpile kindling over the summer and stack wood to keep the house warm in the winter. (I still make Solar nervous when using my chain saw.)

Then there was of course the learning curve on the solar/generator system.  I have learned to change oil, fuel filters, and basic maintenance of generators. I can check the water level on the batteries which is about the only thing I can actually do with the solar system.  I have gotten good at ordering new invertors, chargers, red dye diesel fuel for the generator (which has more than doubled thanks to Biden) and understand the cost of a new battery bank - it is not cheap but it is a choice.  There is a certain satisfaction knowing we have power when others around us do not.

I have learned that sometimes you need to make logical choices.  The nice large refrigerator I like is not good for our system but the new propane one will help keep my battery bank healthy.  I stock up on food (canned and dehydrated) and even attempt a garden every year - I do not have a green thumb.

Solar is correct it is constant - I look out and see the pile of wood that needs to be moved closer to the house and the kindling scattered throughout the forest that needs to be picked up....  it does seem to never end.  But I wouldn't trade the life I have now for the life I had.  Because here with Solar I am alive and truly living.  Toy

Excellent posts from both of you!

Quote from: Mimsy on December 17, 2021, 03:26:17 PMExcellent posts from both of you!

Thanx Mimsy. It really is kinda hard writing these. I really have to tax mind over how it used to be and the struggles I went through just to get to where I am.
Building a home without any help, doing everything by myself took decades, and no, I'll never actually finish.

Over the decades I had my 1970 ElCamino die, a Ford F-150, a full size Jimmy 4x4 break down, I was finally able to sell them all.
It may not sound like much, but they were all taking up valuable space, and one party bought all of them for 5 grand.
Now if I can just unload the party barge, life will be good.

Quote from: Solar on December 17, 2021, 07:05:19 PMThanx Mimsy. It really is kinda hard writing these. I really have to tax mind over how it used to be and the struggles I went through just to get to where I am.
Building a home without any help, doing everything by myself took decades, and no, I'll never actually finish.

Over the decades I had my 1970 ElCamino die, a Ford F-150, a full size Jimmy 4x4 break down, I was finally able to sell them all.
It may not sound like much, but they were all taking up valuable space, and one party bought all of them for 5 grand.
Now if I can just unload the party barge, life will be good.

Yeah, this is a great thread. It really shows there's a lot more to living off grid than the romanticized version we think of. I can tell these posts are difficult to write due to the attention to detail that you and Toy are putting into it. It would actually make a great book!   

Quote from: Mimsy on December 20, 2021, 12:01:26 PMYeah, this is a great thread. It really shows there's a lot more to living off grid than the romanticized version we think of. I can tell these posts are difficult to write due to the attention to detail that you and Toy are putting into it. It would actually make a great book! 

Thanks Mimsy, that was my plan all along, but with a death sentence of a cancer diagnosis, Taxed thought it would be better to do it in a post format.
It definitely takes the stress off of trying to remember in chronological order. I swear, as I write, other memories come flooding back, but all out of sequence.

Yes, there is nothing glamorous about setting up an off grid home, especially when you are forced to pay small town prices, anyway, that was then, now we have Home despot, and other big box store within 40 minutes.
But just surviving in the interim is the real challenge.

I have a related project I'm considering. I want to build a pole shed on the back of my property, mainly for storage and parking tractors and other outdoor equipment. I'd like to have electricity of some description back there, enough to supply lights (just a few LED bulbs) at night and to power as many as half a dozen battery chargers, the little trickle kind. One I use now, for example, has just 3/4 amp DC output.

It's possible to supply power company juice to the location, but that option would involve several hundred feet of trench and a buttload of heavy-gauge UF wire. I'm wondering how tough it would be to do it with solar panels. I know that would involve battery storage, but considering what I want to do back there, would I even need to use an inverter? Could I do it all with battery-bus DC? Can a single charge manager handle charging an array of batteries?

And of course, the biggest question of all -- what would something like what I'd need cost?

Quote from: TboneAgain on December 20, 2021, 12:29:00 PMI have a related project I'm considering. I want to build a pole shed on the back of my property, mainly for storage and parking tractors and other outdoor equipment. I'd like to have electricity of some description back there, enough to supply lights (just a few LED bulbs) at night and to power as many as half a dozen battery chargers, the little trickle kind. One I use now, for example, has just 3/4 amp DC output.

It's possible to supply power company juice to the location, but that option would involve several hundred feet of trench and a buttload of heavy-gauge UF wire. I'm wondering how tough it would be to do it with solar panels. I know that would involve battery storage, but considering what I want to do back there, would I even need to use an inverter? Could I do it all with battery-bus DC? Can a single charge manager handle charging an array of batteries?

And of course, the biggest question of all -- what would something like what I'd need cost?

This is a tough one because first you need to workout a budget. Then decide what the future might entail in the form of expansion.
spend the money on a good inverter, not the off the shelf stuff you find at an auto parts store. Get one with a charger built in, that way if the weather turns you can use a generator to charge your batteries.
It's better to have as battery bank of some kind to offset surges, or low power output. Low power output puts a strain on electronics. Low voltage increases current draw, which creates heat which increases power draw and possible fire.

Run an AD in search of free solar panels, they're out there and plentiful because of failed installations, cheap CCP products etc, as well as a hazardous waste fee to dump them.
You can get cheap batteries as well from corporations switching out battery banks, usually picked up for 10% over the cost of lead.
Call a battery recycler, they'll be happy to part with them instead of hauling them off, you'll get your monies worth.
On the pole barn. If you can, use cedar poles, burn the ends before setting, and they'll easily last 100 years.
I've seen many pole barns collapse up here because the poles rotted in the foundation, or just go with steel pipe.    

Quote from: Solar on December 20, 2021, 12:10:32 PMThanks Mimsy, that was my plan all along, but with a death sentence of a cancer diagnosis, Taxed thought it would be better to do it in a post format.
It definitely takes the stress off of trying to remember in chronological order. I swear, as I write, other memories come flooding back, but all out of sequence.

Yes, there is nothing glamorous about setting up an off grid home, especially when you are forced to pay small town prices, anyway, that was then, now we have Home despot, and other big box store within 40 minutes.
But just surviving in the interim is the real challenge.

OMG dude I'm sorry to hear about the cancer! I'm a survivor of eye cancer and I'm always wondering when it's going to show up again. Good luck my brother.

Quote from: Mimsy on December 20, 2021, 01:34:40 PMOMG dude I'm sorry to hear about the cancer! I'm a survivor of eye cancer and I'm always wondering when it's going to show up again. Good luck my brother.

I know the feeling. I had a double melanoma removed from my face several years back, and it appears to be returning.
But I'm good with it all, whatever happens, it's in Gods hands.

Quote from: Solar on December 20, 2021, 01:46:04 PMI know the feeling. I had a double melanoma removed from my face several years back, and it appears to be returning.
But I'm good with it all, whatever happens, it's in Gods hands.

They are getting better at treating cancer it's not the death sentence it used to be. hopefully they zap it all dude.

Quote from: Mimsy on December 20, 2021, 02:29:27 PMThey are getting better at treating cancer it's not the death sentence it used to be. hopefully they zap it all dude.

True, but I have myelofibrosis, a bone cancer, and I won't be doing the chemo route and a search for a donor.
No, this is the life God gave me, and it's been the greatest ride ever.
I'm good however it goes. I wish there was a way to put into words just how great my life has been.

Funny thing is, many people want to know the future, well, I know, and it's shorter than I thought it would be.
And no, I don't know how much time I have left, but it's extremely advanced and the doctors said probably 2 years at best, so I'll make the best of what time I have left.
And being here really makes it all good.

Quote from: Solar on December 20, 2021, 02:36:49 PMTrue, but I have myelofibrosis, a bone cancer, and I won't be doing the chemo route and a search for a donor.
No, this is the life God gave me, and it's been the greatest ride ever.
I'm good however it goes. I wish there was a way to put into words just how great my life has been.

Funny thing is, many people want to know the future, well, I know, and it's shorter than I thought it would be.
And no, I don't know how much time I have left, but it's extremely advanced and the doctors said probably 2 years at best, so I'll make the best of what time I have left.
And being here really makes it all good.

You're a good and brave man Solar.