Quote from: JTA on May 04, 2014, 05:03:31 PM
Man trust me, you're preaching to the choir. If tomorrow programming in LISP was the next big thing and that's what I needed to know to get paid, I'd be all over it. Those guys who follow a programming language like a cult are probably level 100 wizards that live in their moms basement. I know that makes me sound like a douche, but facts are facts and observations don't lie.

Ha, I agree.

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Here's the thing though about Java though - it's still in high demand. I still keep tabs on job search sites and still get recruiters contacting me. It still seems like Java, .NET (C# usually), PHP, and Python all dominate the market in about that order. From what I can gather, most large companies (not all of course) that develop enterprise level applications use either Java or .NET.

No doubt.  I totally get it.  I have a good understanding of where you're at, and know you're probably making a lot more than your peers.  It's a great feeling, and you write your own ticket.

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Why don't you consider Java a real language as opposed to something like Python? Not trying to sound like a Java tool, just genuinely curious is all. If someone is a decent developer, it shouldn't matter what language they code in IMO.

Yes and no.  You're sort of right about at a high level, where you understand the basic constructs of a language, and skirt around typing, pointers/references, or similar concept, garbage collection, and can get by, but it goes much deeper than that.  How the compiler (in C, for example) manages memory, or in PHP, how does the symbols table reference the zvals, etc.  When you write software, you should know what is happening under the hood, and how and why things happen. These should be known, and in Java, things can turn into a mystery that shouldn't.  Java was born because Sun wanted to compete against MS, and should have been aborted.  Trying to optimize stuff in memory with Java, for example, is a complete clusterfuck.  I remember one time we were porting a C program that interfaced with telephony hardware, and in the C code, we would keep an array of pointers to DMA channels so we could communicate straight to the telephony hardware.  Part of that I was wanting to move to a graphical environment, and these Java programmers let me think they knew what they were doing, and I said fine.  Debugging what was happening with memory during runtime was so beyond insane, and the complexity of the language to do some simple things, I just cancelled the project and just ate the money and kept things as they were.  There were some other issues, but I never had a successful Java project, even though I only tried a few, but I have been well supported that I'm not alone.  I've never tossed a C project, and when I was starting out, before I started my company and was just contracting on the side, I was writing apps in VC++, and delivering them.  At that time I didn't understand how bad C++ was, but I was making money, and could handle any requirements, so I thought it was OK.  If I did those in Java, I would have failed hard-core.

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If someone is bad at coming up with a solution in one language, they'll do a terrible job in any language since the language itself is secondary to the actual implementation.

It's like a nail gun.  In the hands of a pro, it's a useful tool.  In the hands of a child, it's a dangerous tool that creates pain.  To be a software engineer, you really need to understand what goes on under the hood, and the reality is, most "programmers" have no clue.  Just knowing a few calls, conditionals, and looping structures isn't knowing how to program, and knowing how to program in multiple languages with their different syntax.  It's like saying since you know how to install a toilet, you are a home builder.  The coding alone isn't the only thing; it's also getting the project from concept, getting paid, and delivering.  It's a journey.

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Definitely. Once you know one learning the basics of others doesn't any time at all. Not gonna lie though, I have not checked out Python yet .

Definitely check it out!  You will naturally try to make things more complicated, but if you stick with it, you will feel so free.

Quote from: taxed on May 04, 2014, 10:55:49 AM
Hate is too kind of a word.  It is the worst language ever slapped together, and makes non-programmers think they know what they're doing.  I don't even consider it a real programming language in reality.  The worst decisions I have ever made in my life have been listening and empowering Java programmers.  I have lost too much money and suffered too much emotional trauma from Java-based projects.  I've never written an application in Java, but I have been on the "all hands on deck" side of trying to figure critical problems out that the "smart" Java programmers should have answers to but never could, because I went against my gut and trusted experienced Java developers.

Get out while you can, JTA, and PLEASE learn a real programming language.  Java is like a cult, and right now, even though I could point out that it's taking all your money and banging your 10 year old daughter, you would fight me tooth and nail as to why it's a good language.  Java is NOT programming.  When someone tells me they are a Java developer, I automatically know they are clueless about software engineering and would be useless on any meaningful project.

I can tell you're young, so I'm not harping on you as much as I am the sleaze who have indoctrinated you into the Java cult and make you think it's OK.  Just please make me feel better and tell/lie to me that you're learning other languages.  If you said C++, I'd cringe, then vomit, but I could live with it.  If you said Python, I would give you a big hug and kiss.

On the flip-side, why the love for Python?

Quote from: taxed on May 04, 2014, 06:01:48 PM
Yes and no.  You're sort of right about at a high level, where you understand the basic constructs of a language, and skirt around typing, pointers/references, or similar concept, garbage collection, and can get by, but it goes much deeper than that.  How the compiler (in C, for example) manages memory, or in PHP, how does the symbols table reference the zvals, etc.  When you write software, you should know what is happening under the hood, and how and why things happen. These should be known, and in Java, things can turn into a mystery that shouldn't.  Java was born because Sun wanted to compete against MS, and should have been aborted.  Trying to optimize stuff in memory with Java, for example, is a complete clusterfuck.  I remember one time we were porting a C program that interfaced with telephony hardware, and in the C code, we would keep an array of pointers to DMA channels so we could communicate straight to the telephony hardware.  Part of that I was wanting to move to a graphical environment, and these Java programmers let me think they knew what they were doing, and I said fine.  Debugging what was happening with memory during runtime was so beyond insane, and the complexity of the language to do some simple things, I just cancelled the project and just ate the money and kept things as they were.  There were some other issues, but I never had a successful Java project, even though I only tried a few, but I have been well supported that I'm not alone.  I've never tossed a C project, and when I was starting out, before I started my company and was just contracting on the side, I was writing apps in VC++, and delivering them.  At that time I didn't understand how bad C++ was, but I was making money, and could handle any requirements, so I thought it was OK.  If I did those in Java, I would have failed hard-core.

Many good points here.

I've heard this same complaint about Java from others as well.

I think a lot of large companies use Java/.NET because it's relatively quick to hash out some business logic. When you need to do something like have a form to gather user input to do something like submit a work order, apply some business rules to that (i.e. only if user has authorization, with tons of other constraints), .NET and Java are quick and easy. When you need to do low level stuff like you did, Java and .NET are NOT the way to go for reasons you outlined.

QuoteI remember one time we were porting a C program that interfaced with telephony hardware

I used to do some work with telephony systems. Way more high level than you though, and way less complicated. A lot of the systems had APIs we could use to communicate to them with using web services so doing things was pretty straightforward and not too difficult. It was fun though.

Quote from: JTA on May 05, 2014, 06:32:52 AM
On the flip-side, why the love for Python?

Super clean syntax, and you do way more with less code.

Quote from: JTA on May 05, 2014, 09:06:09 AM
Many good points here.

I've heard this same complaint about Java from others as well.

I think a lot of large companies use Java/.NET because it's relatively quick to hash out some business logic. When you need to do something like have a form to gather user input to do something like submit a work order, apply some business rules to that (i.e. only if user has authorization, with tons of other constraints), .NET and Java are quick and easy. When you need to do low level stuff like you did, Java and .NET are NOT the way to go for reasons you outlined.

Nope.  The reason is because people who know nothing about software development or engineering make these decisions.  It really is that simple.

Quote from: taxed on May 05, 2014, 10:52:22 AM
Nope.  The reason is because people who know nothing about software development or engineering make these decisions.  It really is that simple.

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. If that were the case then a good many companies out there have made really bad decisions from what I can see.

Quote from: JTA on May 05, 2014, 11:22:10 AM
I'll have to disagree with you on this one. If that were the case then a good many companies out there have made really bad decisions from what I can see.

That's correct.

Quote from: taxed on May 05, 2014, 11:54:15 AM
That's correct.

I'm just trying to reach that level 100 wizard status without "the living in my moms basement" part. 

Taxed - here's a mindfuck for you (was for me) - Have you ever heard of Node.js? It's server side Javascript. We used to joke way back when about server side JS and now it's a thing. It's partially interpreted, partially compiled so it's faster than PHP, slower than Java. It runs your JS code using the same JS engine chrome uses but on the server instead of your browser. I few companies use it, Paypal being one of them. The nice thing about it is all of your FE/BE code can be written in the same language which I think is its main selling point. As to whether its any good I have no idea.

I am starting to thinking we need a geek board.      

Quote from: JTA on May 05, 2014, 12:17:36 PM
Taxed - here's a mindfuck for you (was for me) - Have you ever heard of Node.js?

Yeah, I love node.js.  We have a few services built on it.

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It's server side Javascript. We used to joke way back when about server side JS and now it's a thing. It's partially interpreted, partially compiled so it's faster than PHP, slower than Java. It runs your JS code using the same JS engine chrome uses but on the server instead of your browser. I few companies use it, Paypal being one of them. The nice thing about it is all of your FE/BE code can be written in the same language which I think is its main selling point. As to whether its any good I have no idea.

It works really good.  It's a great way to reduce load on your web server.

Quote from: walkstall on May 05, 2014, 12:36:37 PM
I am starting to thinking we need a geek board.      

Quote from: walkstall on May 05, 2014, 12:36:37 PMI am starting to thinking we need a geek board.      

Either that or a different thread from the original intent of this one.

Quote from: CG6468 on May 06, 2014, 07:08:01 AM
Either that or a different thread from the original intent of this one.

You're new here...aren't you?   

Quote from: quiller on May 06, 2014, 07:20:45 AMYou're new here...aren't you?   

Why, shure! Threads here have a tendancy to drift?