I thought it would be better than the disastrous Windows 8.0.. However it's sort of like throwing your laptop into oncoming traffic.
Quote from: The Boo Man... on January 28, 2014, 06:24:23 PM
I thought it would be better than the disastrous Windows 8.0.. However it's sort of like throwing your laptop into oncoming traffic.
you poor man. :ohmy: Now you need to go in and download all the up-dates. :lol:
Don't ya just love how they claim it's an upgrade? When in truth, it's a fix for earlier fuck ups.
And to think, ther'll be a Win 8.2 coming out shortly, completely validating my point. :lol:
Quote from: Solar on January 28, 2014, 06:37:39 PM
Don't ya just love how they claim it's an upgrade? When in truth, it's a fix for earlier fuck ups.
And to think, ther'll be a Win 8.2 coming out shortly, completely validating my point. :lol:
8.1 is making it almost impossible to post here. suddenly my browser can't handle the CPF...
Quote from: The Boo Man... on January 28, 2014, 06:43:35 PM
8.1 is making it almost impossible to post here. suddenly my browser can't handle the CPF...
Give your browser a drink, it may help it our. :toungsmile:
Quote from: The Boo Man... on January 28, 2014, 06:43:35 PM
8.1 is making it almost impossible to post here. suddenly my browser can't handle the CPF...
Please tell me, you aren't using Microsoft IE for a browser, are you? :glare: :laugh:
Quote from: Solar on January 28, 2014, 07:09:15 PM
Please tell me, you aren't using Microsoft IE for a browser, are you? :glare: :laugh:
Mozilla
Quote from: The Boo Man... on January 28, 2014, 07:10:59 PM
Mozilla
LOL, OK, maybe Gates has it in for anything with FOX in it, as in Mozilla Fire Fox. :laugh:
Check and see if there's an update in Mozilla....
I'm just going to restore the computer to an earlier time and go back to Windows 8. I hate windows 8 but at least I have figured out how to use it without having a stroke and will deal with it until I get a new laptop.
Quote from: The Boo Man... on January 29, 2014, 07:06:58 PM
I'm just going to restore the computer to an earlier time and go back to Windows 8. I hate windows 8 but at least I have figured out how to use it without having a stroke and will deal with it until I get a new laptop.
I found a guy on Craigslist who's selling copies of Win7 Pro for $40. Says they're "surplus," whatever that means. He's a dealer with a brick & mortar store and a reputation to uphold, so I dunno.
Just a thought. Win7 beats the living shit out of Win8. Well, feature-wise there's very little difference, I guess, but with Win8 it's like a bunch of weirdos sat in a little room and dreamed up every way they could think of to make all the cool stuff in Win7 utterly impossible to use.
I'm moving to this:
Linux Mint 16 XFCE Full Review (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GItVTVLyY24#)
When I downloaded 8.1 on my computer, suddenly the wireless internet connection stopped working and I had to plug the computer in the router (which disconnected all of the other members who were connected to the internet), and it took me an hour of searching and testing these solutions until I had to reset my computer :mellow:
Quote from: flo on February 17, 2014, 10:08:37 AM
When I downloaded 8.1 on my computer, suddenly the wireless internet connection stopped working and I had to plug the computer in the router (which disconnected all of the other members who were connected to the internet), and it took me an hour of searching and testing these solutions until I had to reset my computer :mellow:
When I have a problem with my puter I always unplug the router and restart my puter. It always solved my problems. That or get a new puter. :lol: I have had 3 go belly up on me so I always save everything I do to a external hard drive also. They say Laptops are only good for about 5 years, I am on my 6 year with this one. So I will start looking around at the new one.
Quote from: Solar on January 28, 2014, 06:37:39 PM
Don't ya just love how they claim it's an upgrade? When in truth, it's a fix for earlier fuck ups.
And to think, ther'll be a Win 8.2 coming out shortly, completely validating my point. :lol:
Microsoft always releases a new version before it's tested for reliability.
I understand but cannot confirm that 8 will not allow previous versions to replace it.
Quote from: taxed on January 30, 2014, 01:15:32 PM
I'm moving to this:
Linux Mint 16 XFCE Full Review (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GItVTVLyY24#)
:ttoung: :biggrin:
I've heard of Linux but know nothing abut it.
Quote from: CG6468 on April 27, 2014, 04:11:27 PM
I've heard of Linux but know nothing abut it.
Trrrrrrrrrrrust me! He'll be deliriously happy to fill you in. :lol:
It's a geeky platform which requires patience to learn and may not always allow you to use your fave programs, until someone writes the proper .DLL file or whatever.
Um...his opinion will vary. :wink:
Quote from: CG6468 on April 27, 2014, 04:11:27 PM
I've heard of Linux but know nothing abut it.
If you have a spare pooter sitting around, Linux is the answer, especially if your OS is outdated.
If you're not a gamer, it works great for most programs, and definitely faster, since it's not bogged down with useless crap like Windows.
Quote from: CG6468 on April 27, 2014, 04:11:27 PM
I've heard of Linux but know nothing abut it.
quiller has no idea what he's talking about. You can run Windows programs on Linux, and the learning curve involves clicking simple options, like "Shut down", or "Applications".
Quote from: taxed on April 29, 2014, 11:22:48 AMquiller has no idea what he's talking about. You can run Windows programs on Linux, and the learning curve involves clicking simple options, like "Shut down", or "Applications".
I'll remain merely a casual observer of the passing scene, laying back in da weeds..........
Quote from: quiller on April 27, 2014, 07:10:50 PM
Trrrrrrrrrrrust me! He'll be deliriously happy to fill you in. :lol:
It's a geeky platform which requires patience to learn and may not always allow you to use your fave programs, until someone writes the proper .DLL file or whatever.
Um...his opinion will vary. :wink:
I am not a geek. Taxed is. His opinion on the complexity of any Linux platform DOES vary...especially from my own personal experience trying to make Microsoft Word (the publishing industry standard) work properly. I finally dumped Linux for that reason.
Would Linux (in any form) work well for others? Sure. Many if not most users usually don't require specific programs keyed expressly to Microsoft. And best 'o luck on finding updated .DLLs and so forth. The Linux developers as a herd (regardless of respective Linux flavors) do not necessarily do a good job of distributing these updates, and non-geeks aren't all that great about digging out sources to acquire those updates (SourceForge, Slashdot, Major Geeks, etc.). This is my reason for saying a high learning curve is involved.
I am not a geek. If you are not as well, do study whatever you can find out about any given version of Linux, before adopting it. For my use it was an underperformer...not that Microsoft in the end run is much better, except for ease in acquiring updates (while the company chooses to give any).
I upgraded from Windows 8 to 8.1 too and it broke my Wifi. I ended up going back to 8 because I'd rather stare at a brick wall than have to fix my own computer.
The thing is, and I make this argument all the time to people that know me, the LAST person who can handle something more complex is me. I want a world with one button and the most simplicity as possible. If I can't do something simple or easy, I get frustrated and get my baseball bat and start beating the crap out of it. I can't handle things that break. It's 2014. The only thing in my life that just works flawlessly is my laptop. I don't have to reboot, or have an increasingly sluggish system. Everything is super fast and never flinches. I don't have to reboot for updates, and now with this new Iron browser I'm using, my web browsing is instant. With Microsoft, overall, they just aren't that sophisticated anymore. The open source world passed them by. The only thing they do good right now is on the gaming side. XBox kicks ass, and right now, all the development love is on Windows. On the application side, there is nothing special about them anymore. Linux is derived from Unix, and Unix has been around since the 60s. It's like the proven old structure that has been time tested through earthquakes and floods. When you build a house, there is a right way to do things, and a wrong way, like when you set the foundation. You have to do it right, or your house will sink and fall apart. It is exactly the same with Unix/Linux. Now, my current experience was not true a year or year and a half ago. Much less 2-3 years ago, and 5 years ago, even less. Even then, it was far better than what most are used to. It is just recent the Linux desktop is where it's at now. And when I say "Linux", there are various distros that are nothing like each other. I run Mint, which is different than Fedora, or Red Hat, or others. They all have their pros and cons, and if some other Linux user reads this he'd jump in and tell me how crazy I am for not using his favorite distro. We have desktop choice in Linux, but they are all built on the same core kernel.
Linux has constantly improved over the years. Windows, the opposite. Would you rather have 98 or XP, or 8.1? Linux has not re-vamped. The data files I wrote and used back in the late 90s, I can use now. I'll never have to worry about backwards compatibility. And telling people it is harder to learn is beyond ridiculous. Installing Mint, for example, is by far the easiest install experience I have ever had. It easily passes the grandma test now. A few years ago, not the case.
The funniest thing too is hearing someone say Linux isn't the way to go, but they won't open up a Youtube link because they fear they will get a virus or whatever. The concept of a virus is so insane when you have somewhat of an understanding of operating systems. It is exactly like fearing to go to the store because you fear someone will break into your house and burn it down. Why get out of bed at that point? If you're a non-smoker, think about how you view smokers, with how much time they spend thinking about smoking, taking smoke breaks, and burning money on cigs. All that time and money could be spent doing nothing, or something you like. That's how I see the whole virus thing. A Windows user telling someone to not use Linux, or that it's harder or more for geeks, is like a smoker telling a non-smoker to not go to the gym, because they might pull a muscle.
I could go on...
Quote from: quiller on April 29, 2014, 09:35:02 PM
I am not a geek. Taxed is. His opinion on the complexity of any Linux platform DOES vary...especially from my own personal experience trying to make Microsoft Word (the publishing industry standard) work properly. I finally dumped Linux for that reason.
That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen you post. Most people have Word, but that doesn't mean it has anything to do with publishing. You don't send word docs around. It's not portable, and for other Windows user, a virus risk. People publish to PDF. NOBODY sends Word Docs around. You create a PDF, or you create your e-Reader format. And if you want to talk any type of publishing, Mac completely murders Windows, and Linux, on those fronts. Documents, video, audio, or any medium or publishing, Mac by far dominates. You won't find Windows desktops at publishing companies. You'll find Mac 100% of the time.
Quote from: taxed on May 01, 2014, 02:26:11 AM
That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen you post. Most people have Word, but that doesn't mean it has anything to do with publishing. You don't send word docs around. It's not portable, and for other Windows user, a virus risk. People publish to PDF. NOBODY sends Word Docs around. You create a PDF, or you create your e-Reader format. And if you want to talk any type of publishing, Mac completely murders Windows, and Linux, on those fronts. Documents, video, audio, or any medium or publishing, Mac by far dominates. You won't find Windows desktops at publishing companies. You'll find Mac 100% of the time.
Best of luck on your own publishing experience. Word has been adopted by every major publishing house I can think of as the go-to platform. I partly dispute your claim that "100%" adopted Apple computers: for magazines that's true. For printed books, it's not.
But that's the hardware. In the last 30 years, I have not seen ONE publisher say writers should submit their "documents" in anything except .DOC format (or, for fastest translation into e-books, the .RTF format). That's just for the Amazon Kindle format. With companies like Smashwords and their "Meatgrinder" translation system it becomes nightmarish.
I repeat from above:
Would Linux (in any form) work well for others? Sure. Many if not most users usually don't require specific programs keyed expressly to Microsoft. And best 'o luck on finding updated .DLLs and so forth. The Linux developers as a herd (regardless of respective Linux flavors) do not necessarily do a good job of distributing these updates, and non-geeks aren't all that great about digging out sources to acquire those updates (SourceForge, Slashdot, Major Geeks, etc.). This is my reason for saying a high learning curve is involved.
Don't get so defensive. My use is specialized.
Quote from: quiller on May 01, 2014, 03:34:45 AM
Best of luck on your own publishing experience. Word has been adopted by every major publishing house I can think of as the go-to platform. I partly dispute your claim that "100%" adopted Apple computers: for magazines that's true. For printed books, it's not.
Not when I did site visits for a few of my publishing clients some years ago. I doubt it has changed. 100% was sarcastic, but when you're formatting documents for printers and various mediums, Windows can't handle it. I'd rather argue something closer to reality, like if Santa Claus exists.
Quote
But that's the hardware. In the last 30 years, I have not seen ONE publisher say writers should submit their "documents" in anything except .DOC format (or, for fastest translation into e-books, the .RTF format).
That's just for the Amazon Kindle format. With companies like Smashwords and their "Meatgrinder" translation system it becomes nightmarish.
I repeat from above:
Would Linux (in any form) work well for others? Sure. Many if not most users usually don't require specific programs keyed expressly to Microsoft. And best 'o luck on finding updated .DLLs and so forth. The Linux developers as a herd (regardless of respective Linux flavors) do not necessarily do a good job of distributing these updates, and non-geeks aren't all that great about digging out sources to acquire those updates (SourceForge, Slashdot, Major Geeks, etc.). This is my reason for saying a high learning curve is involved.
You are correct about the various distros. For a desktop, I have only used Fedora, back in the days when it did require some techiness, and Ubuntu, and now Mint the past few months. I'll just say don't judge it by any experience you had not so long ago. The movement to improve the desktop experience has dramatically improved since more love has been devoted to it -- at least in Ubuntu and Mint I can say.
Quote
Don't get so defensive. My use is specialized.
I'm really not. Sorry.
Quote from: taxed on May 01, 2014, 02:07:06 AM
The thing is, and I make this argument all the time to people that know me, the LAST person who can handle something more complex is me. I want a world with one button and the most simplicity as possible. If I can't do something simple or easy, I get frustrated and get my baseball bat and start beating the crap out of it.
I wish programming was like that :(. Two hours spent today hunting down the source of a missing "}" in my json.
Back to OS's - I still use Windows as my main OS, as of right now it's easier for me with all the programs I use. Maybe it's because I'm just used to it, but I had a time getting my bluetooth mouse to work with Ubuntu. I remember a while ago it took me a while to get a static IP set up on my computer using the Ubuntu GUI. Then again, they had just released a new version and I got the latest so that may have been the problem.
Quote from: JTA on May 01, 2014, 05:16:57 PM
I wish programming was like that :(. Two hours spent today hunting down the source of a missing "}" in my json.
Why'd that take 2 hours?
Quote
Back to OS's - I still use Windows as my main OS, as of right now it's easier for me with all the programs I use.
What do you typically use, out of curiosity?
Quote
Maybe it's because I'm just used to it, but I had a time getting my bluetooth mouse to work with Ubuntu. I remember a while ago it took me a while to get a static IP set up on my computer using the Ubuntu GUI. Then again, they had just released a new version and I got the latest so that may have been the problem.
Interesting....
Quote from: taxed on May 01, 2014, 08:39:04 PM
Why'd that take 2 hours?
What do you typically use, out of curiosity?
Interesting....
1) Was not pretty code :(. Maybe it didn't take quite two hours but it felt like eternity.
2) Hanful of proframs I use the most:
Media Monkey
TagScanner
Steam
Eclipse
Zune (I have since upgraded to an Ipod. I still think Zune was pretty bad ass though. The controls were better than the iPod IMO).
Yeah, I could probably get them on Linux. But I will miss the pretty Windows interface.
Fun fact: When I installed Linux on my other laptop I almost got it looking exactly like Windows 7. Almost.
Quote from: JTA on May 02, 2014, 06:40:18 PM
1) Was not pretty code :(. Maybe it didn't take quite two hours but it felt like eternity.
JS can indeed get pretty verbose.
Quote
2) Hanful of proframs I use the most:
Media Monkey
TagScanner
Steam
Eclipse
Zune (I have since upgraded to an Ipod. I still think Zune was pretty bad ass though. The controls were better than the iPod IMO).
Yeah, I could probably get them on Linux. But I will miss the pretty Windows interface.
Fun fact: When I installed Linux on my other laptop I almost got it looking exactly like Windows 7. Almost.
How do you like it?
Quote from: taxed on May 02, 2014, 10:32:39 PM
JS can indeed get pretty verbose.
How do you like it?
It suits my needs well enough. I've got it customized bigtime and use it for everything - SVN (Subclipse), Java, Javascript. I also use it with Google App Engine when I'm working on my Java based web apps. I gotta hand it to google, GAE is pretty bad ass. It's super easy to test and deploy your applications once you set up a GAE project in eclipse.
Quote from: JTA on May 03, 2014, 06:26:02 AM
It suits my needs well enough. I've got it customized bigtime and use it for everything - SVN (Subclipse),
You don't use git??
Quote
Java,
Tell me this is just because your job makes you write in this...
Quote
Javascript. I also use it with Google App Engine when I'm working on my Java based web apps. I gotta hand it to google, GAE is pretty bad ass. It's super easy to test and deploy your applications once you set up a GAE project in eclipse.
As much as I hate google, their development side is pretty sweet.
Quit using Java.. it's bad for your health.
Quote from: taxed on May 03, 2014, 05:18:37 PM
You don't use git??
Tell me this is just because your job makes you write in this...
As much as I hate google, their development side is pretty sweet.
Quit using Java.. it's bad for your health.
Why the hate for Java?
Quote from: JTA on May 04, 2014, 08:46:45 AM
Why the hate for Java?
It's not really necessary anymore for one, and it's pretty much an open wound.
Summary: As OS vendors get better about patching their own flaws, malware authors are increasingly turning to third-party code to get their dirty work done, and Java is high on the list. It's easy to say, "Just don't use Java," but what if a program you use requires it? I've got a list of problem apps and solutions.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/how-big-a-security-risk-is-java-can-you-really-quit-using-it/4749 (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/how-big-a-security-risk-is-java-can-you-really-quit-using-it/4749)
Quote from: Solar on May 04, 2014, 09:09:36 AM
It's not really necessary anymore for one, and it's pretty much an open wound.
Summary: As OS vendors get better about patching their own flaws, malware authors are increasingly turning to third-party code to get their dirty work done, and Java is high on the list. It's easy to say, "Just don't use Java," but what if a program you use requires it? I've got a list of problem apps and solutions.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/how-big-a-security-risk-is-java-can-you-really-quit-using-it/4749 (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/how-big-a-security-risk-is-java-can-you-really-quit-using-it/4749)
Yeah agreed. Using a client side app written in Java is a pain in the ass and a waste of time. You're right, they aren't necessary anymore. I avoid them at all costs. For large scale web applications though, J2EE isn;t all that bad and is still relevant. The client never knows Java is being used since everything executes on the server. It's irrelevant to them.
Quote from: Solar on May 04, 2014, 09:09:36 AM
It's not really necessary anymore for one, and it's pretty much an open wound.
Summary: As OS vendors get better about patching their own flaws, malware authors are increasingly turning to third-party code to get their dirty work done, and Java is high on the list. It's easy to say, "Just don't use Java," but what if a program you use requires it? I've got a list of problem apps and solutions.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/how-big-a-security-risk-is-java-can-you-really-quit-using-it/4749 (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/how-big-a-security-risk-is-java-can-you-really-quit-using-it/4749)
I managed to get through Page 1 of the comments attached to this item and am now wondering how safe people are if they simply use Mozilla and NoScript to block sites from launching any Java application the PC user does not want and authorize. World of Warcraft for example requires Java but NoScript seems to work well for my wife. Is her PC all that safe behind just this one wall of protection?
Quote from: JTA on May 04, 2014, 09:27:57 AM
Yeah agreed. Using a client side app written in Java is a pain in the ass and a waste of time. You're right, they aren't necessary anymore. I avoid them at all costs. For large scale web applications though, J2EE isn;t all that bad and is still relevant. The client never knows Java is being used since everything executes on the server. It's irrelevant to them.
That sounds relatively safe.
Quote from: quiller on May 04, 2014, 09:41:39 AM
I managed to get through Page 1 of the comments attached to this item and am now wondering how safe people are if they simply use Mozilla and NoScript to block sites from launching any Java application the PC user does not want and authorize. World of Warcraft for example requires Java but NoScript seems to work well for my wife. Is her PC all that safe behind just this one wall of protection?
If it does what they claim, I guess shes safe? :unsure:
Quote from: Solar on May 04, 2014, 10:01:54 AM
If it does what they claim, I guess shes safe? :unsure:
Love that confidence. :lol:
Quote from: quiller on May 04, 2014, 10:14:19 AM
Love that confidence. :lol:
:lol:
I stand behind that decisive and definite "Maybe" that shes safe. :biggrin:
Quote from: JTA on May 04, 2014, 08:46:45 AM
Why the hate for Java?
Hate is too kind of a word. It is the worst language ever slapped together, and makes non-programmers think they know what they're doing. I don't even consider it a real programming language in reality. The worst decisions I have ever made in my life have been listening and empowering Java programmers. I have lost too much money and suffered too much emotional trauma from Java-based projects. I've never written an application in Java, but I have been on the "all hands on deck" side of trying to figure critical problems out that the "smart" Java programmers should have answers to but never could, because I went against my gut and trusted experienced Java developers.
Get out while you can, JTA, and PLEASE learn a real programming language. Java is like a cult, and right now, even though I could point out that it's taking all your money and banging your 10 year old daughter, you would fight me tooth and nail as to why it's a good language. Java is NOT programming. When someone tells me they are a Java developer, I automatically know they are clueless about software engineering and would be useless on any meaningful project.
I can tell you're young, so I'm not harping on you as much as I am the sleaze who have indoctrinated you into the Java cult and make you think it's OK. Just please make me feel better and tell/lie to me that you're learning other languages. If you said C++, I'd cringe, then vomit, but I could live with it. If you said Python, I would give you a big hug and kiss.
Quote from: Solar on May 04, 2014, 10:01:09 AM
That sounds relatively safe.
It's like that with a lot of web applications. For the layman, they'll never know whether an application is running PHP, Java, .NET, Python, etc.. unless they look at the page suffix and know what it means, i.e.index.
php, index.
jsp, index.
apsx, etc.. Sometimes that may not even be visible if the application is using URL mapping. You can do this with Java by using servlets instead of lopping everything into JSPs (which is basically the page served to the user after stuff has been transformed into HTML that a web browser can display). Or with .NET I think you can do this with their MVC.
...and JTA, I'm really not harping on you. I'm really happy you're a productive person in society with actual skill, and are doing good things. It's all a learning experience, and you're doing fine I'm quite certain. You're not some clueless unskilled lib shoveling fries or hiding in school. You're in the real world, so I'm totally a fan of yours, fyi.
Quote from: taxed on May 04, 2014, 10:55:49 AM
Hate is too kind of a word. It is the worst language ever slapped together, and makes non-programmers think they know what they're doing. I don't even consider it a real programming language in reality. The worst decisions I have ever made in my life have been listening and empowering Java programmers. I have lost too much money and suffered too much emotional trauma from Java-based projects. I've never written an application in Java, but I have been on the "all hands on deck" side of trying to figure critical problems out that the "smart" Java programmers should have answers to but never could, because I went against my gut and trusted experienced Java developers.
Get out while you can, JTA, and PLEASE learn a real programming language. Java is like a cult, and right now, even though I could point out that it's taking all your money and banging your 10 year old daughter, you would fight me tooth and nail as to why it's a good language. Java is NOT programming. When someone tells me they are a Java developer, I automatically know they are clueless about software engineering and would be useless on any meaningful project. Follow the money...
I can tell you're young, so I'm not harping on you as much as I am the sleaze who have indoctrinated you into the Java cult and make you think it's OK. Just please make me feel better and tell/lie to me that you're learning other languages. If you said C++, I'd cringe, then vomit, but I could live with it. If you said Python, I would give you a big hug and kiss.
Man trust me, you're preaching to the choir. If tomorrow programming in LISP was the next big thing and that's what I needed to know to get paid, I'd be all over it. Those guys who follow a programming language like a cult are probably level 100 wizards that live in their moms basement. I know that makes me sound like a douche, but facts are facts and observations don't lie.
Here's the thing about Java though - it's still in high demand. I still keep tabs on job search sites and still get recruiters contacting me. It still seems like Java, .NET (C# usually), PHP, and Python all dominate the market in about that order. From what I can gather, most large companies (not all of course) that develop enterprise level applications use either Java or .NET.
Why don't you consider Java a real language as opposed to something like Python? Not trying to sound like a Java tool, just genuinely curious is all. If someone is a decent developer, it shouldn't matter what language they code in IMO. If someone is bad at coming up with a solution in one language, they'll do a terrible job in any language since the language itself is secondary to the actual implementation.
Quote..and JTA, I'm really not harping on you. I'm really happy you're a productive person in society with actual skill, and are doing good things. It's all a learning experience, and you're doing fine I'm quite certain. You're not some clueless unskilled lib shoveling fries or hiding in school. You're in the real world, so I'm totally a fan of yours, fyi.
Much appreciated. :thumbsup:
QuoteJust please make me feel better and tell/lie to me that you're learning other languages.
Definitely. Once you know one learning the basics of others doesn't any time at all. Not gonna lie though, I have not checked out Python yet :smile: .
Edit (2) - Been reading up on Python after this discussion, it might be worth checking out. Google App Engine has a Python run time environment, so there we go... I'll just miss my brackets :( ...
Quote from: JTA on May 04, 2014, 05:03:31 PM
Man trust me, you're preaching to the choir. If tomorrow programming in LISP was the next big thing and that's what I needed to know to get paid, I'd be all over it. Those guys who follow a programming language like a cult are probably level 100 wizards that live in their moms basement. I know that makes me sound like a douche, but facts are facts and observations don't lie.
Ha, I agree.
Quote
Here's the thing though about Java though - it's still in high demand. I still keep tabs on job search sites and still get recruiters contacting me. It still seems like Java, .NET (C# usually), PHP, and Python all dominate the market in about that order. From what I can gather, most large companies (not all of course) that develop enterprise level applications use either Java or .NET.
No doubt. I totally get it. I have a good understanding of where you're at, and know you're probably making a lot more than your peers. It's a great feeling, and you write your own ticket.
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Why don't you consider Java a real language as opposed to something like Python? Not trying to sound like a Java tool, just genuinely curious is all. If someone is a decent developer, it shouldn't matter what language they code in IMO.
Yes and no. You're sort of right about at a high level, where you understand the basic constructs of a language, and skirt around typing, pointers/references, or similar concept, garbage collection, and can get by, but it goes much deeper than that. How the compiler (in C, for example) manages memory, or in PHP, how does the symbols table reference the zvals, etc. When you write software, you should know what is happening under the hood, and how and why things happen. These should be known, and in Java, things can turn into a mystery that shouldn't. Java was born because Sun wanted to compete against MS, and should have been aborted. Trying to optimize stuff in memory with Java, for example, is a complete clusterfuck. I remember one time we were porting a C program that interfaced with telephony hardware, and in the C code, we would keep an array of pointers to DMA channels so we could communicate straight to the telephony hardware. Part of that I was wanting to move to a graphical environment, and these Java programmers let me think they knew what they were doing, and I said fine. Debugging what was happening with memory during runtime was so beyond insane, and the complexity of the language to do some simple things, I just cancelled the project and just ate the money and kept things as they were. There were some other issues, but I never had a successful Java project, even though I only tried a few, but I have been well supported that I'm not alone. I've never tossed a C project, and when I was starting out, before I started my company and was just contracting on the side, I was writing apps in VC++, and delivering them. At that time I didn't understand how bad C++ was, but I was making money, and could handle any requirements, so I thought it was OK. If I did those in Java, I would have failed hard-core.
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If someone is bad at coming up with a solution in one language, they'll do a terrible job in any language since the language itself is secondary to the actual implementation.
It's like a nail gun. In the hands of a pro, it's a useful tool. In the hands of a child, it's a dangerous tool that creates pain. To be a software engineer, you really need to understand what goes on under the hood, and the reality is, most "programmers" have no clue. Just knowing a few calls, conditionals, and looping structures isn't knowing how to program, and knowing how to program in multiple languages with their different syntax. It's like saying since you know how to install a toilet, you are a home builder. The coding alone isn't the only thing; it's also getting the project from concept, getting paid, and delivering. It's a journey.
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Definitely. Once you know one learning the basics of others doesn't any time at all. Not gonna lie though, I have not checked out Python yet :smile: .
Definitely check it out! You will naturally try to make things more complicated, but if you stick with it, you will feel so free.
Quote from: taxed on May 04, 2014, 10:55:49 AM
Hate is too kind of a word. It is the worst language ever slapped together, and makes non-programmers think they know what they're doing. I don't even consider it a real programming language in reality. The worst decisions I have ever made in my life have been listening and empowering Java programmers. I have lost too much money and suffered too much emotional trauma from Java-based projects. I've never written an application in Java, but I have been on the "all hands on deck" side of trying to figure critical problems out that the "smart" Java programmers should have answers to but never could, because I went against my gut and trusted experienced Java developers.
Get out while you can, JTA, and PLEASE learn a real programming language. Java is like a cult, and right now, even though I could point out that it's taking all your money and banging your 10 year old daughter, you would fight me tooth and nail as to why it's a good language. Java is NOT programming. When someone tells me they are a Java developer, I automatically know they are clueless about software engineering and would be useless on any meaningful project.
I can tell you're young, so I'm not harping on you as much as I am the sleaze who have indoctrinated you into the Java cult and make you think it's OK. Just please make me feel better and tell/lie to me that you're learning other languages. If you said C++, I'd cringe, then vomit, but I could live with it. If you said Python, I would give you a big hug and kiss.
On the flip-side, why the love for Python?
Quote from: taxed on May 04, 2014, 06:01:48 PM
Yes and no. You're sort of right about at a high level, where you understand the basic constructs of a language, and skirt around typing, pointers/references, or similar concept, garbage collection, and can get by, but it goes much deeper than that. How the compiler (in C, for example) manages memory, or in PHP, how does the symbols table reference the zvals, etc. When you write software, you should know what is happening under the hood, and how and why things happen. These should be known, and in Java, things can turn into a mystery that shouldn't. Java was born because Sun wanted to compete against MS, and should have been aborted. Trying to optimize stuff in memory with Java, for example, is a complete clusterfuck. I remember one time we were porting a C program that interfaced with telephony hardware, and in the C code, we would keep an array of pointers to DMA channels so we could communicate straight to the telephony hardware. Part of that I was wanting to move to a graphical environment, and these Java programmers let me think they knew what they were doing, and I said fine. Debugging what was happening with memory during runtime was so beyond insane, and the complexity of the language to do some simple things, I just cancelled the project and just ate the money and kept things as they were. There were some other issues, but I never had a successful Java project, even though I only tried a few, but I have been well supported that I'm not alone. I've never tossed a C project, and when I was starting out, before I started my company and was just contracting on the side, I was writing apps in VC++, and delivering them. At that time I didn't understand how bad C++ was, but I was making money, and could handle any requirements, so I thought it was OK. If I did those in Java, I would have failed hard-core.
Many good points here.
I've heard this same complaint about Java from others as well.
I think a lot of large companies use Java/.NET because it's relatively quick to hash out some business logic. When you need to do something like have a form to gather user input to do something like submit a work order, apply some business rules to that (i.e. only if user has authorization, with tons of other constraints), .NET and Java are quick and easy. When you need to do low level stuff like you did, Java and .NET are NOT the way to go for reasons you outlined.
QuoteI remember one time we were porting a C program that interfaced with telephony hardware
I used to do some work with telephony systems. Way more high level than you though, and way less complicated. A lot of the systems had APIs we could use to communicate to them with using web services so doing things was pretty straightforward and not too difficult. It was fun though.
Quote from: JTA on May 05, 2014, 06:32:52 AM
On the flip-side, why the love for Python?
Super clean syntax, and you do way more with less code.
Quote from: JTA on May 05, 2014, 09:06:09 AM
Many good points here.
I've heard this same complaint about Java from others as well.
I think a lot of large companies use Java/.NET because it's relatively quick to hash out some business logic. When you need to do something like have a form to gather user input to do something like submit a work order, apply some business rules to that (i.e. only if user has authorization, with tons of other constraints), .NET and Java are quick and easy. When you need to do low level stuff like you did, Java and .NET are NOT the way to go for reasons you outlined.
Nope. The reason is because people who know nothing about software development or engineering make these decisions. It really is that simple.
Quote from: taxed on May 05, 2014, 10:52:22 AM
Nope. The reason is because people who know nothing about software development or engineering make these decisions. It really is that simple.
I'll have to disagree with you on this one. If that were the case then a good many companies out there have made really bad decisions from what I can see.
Quote from: JTA on May 05, 2014, 11:22:10 AM
I'll have to disagree with you on this one. If that were the case then a good many companies out there have made really bad decisions from what I can see.
That's correct.
Quote from: taxed on May 05, 2014, 11:54:15 AM
That's correct.
I'm just trying to reach that level 100 wizard status without "the living in my moms basement" part. :laugh:
Taxed - here's a mindfuck for you (was for me) - Have you ever heard of Node.js? It's server side Javascript. We used to joke way back when about server side JS and now it's a thing. It's partially interpreted, partially compiled so it's faster than PHP, slower than Java. It runs your JS code using the same JS engine chrome uses but on the server instead of your browser. I few companies use it, Paypal being one of them. The nice thing about it is all of your FE/BE code can be written in the same language which I think is its main selling point. As to whether its any good I have no idea.
I am starting to thinking we need a geek board. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Quote from: JTA on May 05, 2014, 12:17:36 PM
Taxed - here's a mindfuck for you (was for me) - Have you ever heard of Node.js?
Yeah, I love node.js. We have a few services built on it.
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It's server side Javascript. We used to joke way back when about server side JS and now it's a thing. It's partially interpreted, partially compiled so it's faster than PHP, slower than Java. It runs your JS code using the same JS engine chrome uses but on the server instead of your browser. I few companies use it, Paypal being one of them. The nice thing about it is all of your FE/BE code can be written in the same language which I think is its main selling point. As to whether its any good I have no idea.
It works really good. It's a great way to reduce load on your web server.
Quote from: walkstall on May 05, 2014, 12:36:37 PM
I am starting to thinking we need a geek board. :lol: :lol: :lol:
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages19.fotki.com%2Fv286%2Fphotos%2F1%2F1595431%2F8259098%2FlinuxFortressOfDoom-vi.gif&hash=0eb63ca213202b4b99731bc38dbe6b25acccc142)
Quote from: walkstall on May 05, 2014, 12:36:37 PMI am starting to thinking we need a geek board. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Either that or a different thread from the original intent of this one.
Quote from: CG6468 on May 06, 2014, 07:08:01 AM
Either that or a different thread from the original intent of this one.
You're new here...aren't you? :lol:
Quote from: quiller on May 06, 2014, 07:20:45 AMYou're new here...aren't you? :lol:
Why, shure! Threads here have a tendancy to drift? :tounge:
Quote from: CG6468 on May 06, 2014, 09:33:14 AM
Why, shure! Threads here have a tendancy to drift? :tounge:
Drifty as a loose canoe. Bring your own paddle, some lib stole the rentals.
Quote from: quiller on May 06, 2014, 09:47:24 AMDrifty as a loose canoe. Bring your own paddle, some lib stole the rentals.
Can you canoe? :tounge:
Quote from: CG6468 on May 06, 2014, 11:10:37 AM
Can you canoe? :tounge:
Still learning canoodling.
Boy, talk about drifting.... :lol: :lol: :lol:
For the Linux users - What is your favorite distro?
Mint seems to be pretty good. I like the interface a lot better than Ubuntu's.
Quote from: JTA on May 06, 2014, 01:40:33 PM
For the Linux users - What is your favorite distro?
Mint seems to be pretty good. I like the interface a lot better than Ubuntu's.
Mint is Ubuntu. I'm running Mint with an xfce desktop.
Quote from: CG6468 on May 06, 2014, 07:08:01 AM
Either that or a different thread from the original intent of this one.
Sorry young man, I was being a smartass. Most of us are not geeks but it is nice knowing we have some IT (geeks) around. You will find when we start talking computers it's open season on all software.
Quote from: Solar on May 06, 2014, 12:00:11 PM
Boy, talk about drifting.... :lol: :lol: :lol:
We will keep the Political Forum and Constitution Forum on track. :popcorn:
Quote from: walkstall on May 06, 2014, 03:51:28 PM
We will keep the Political Forum and Constitution Forum on track. :popcorn:
I just found the irony hilarious. :biggrin:
Quote from: Solar on May 06, 2014, 12:00:11 PM
Boy, talk about drifting.... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Canoe find anyone better at it?
Quote from: Solar on May 06, 2014, 04:08:13 PM
I just found the irony hilarious. :biggrin:
:lol: :lol:
Quote from: walkstall on May 06, 2014, 03:45:20 PMSorry young man, I was being a smartass. Most of us are not geeks but it is nice knowing we have some IT (geeks) around. You will find when we start talking computers it's open season on all software.
"Young Man." :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Anyone try LibreOffice as a replacement for Windoze Office?
Quote from: CG6468 on May 06, 2014, 07:35:08 PM
"Young Man." :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Anyone try LibreOffice as a replacement for Windoze Office?
Huge footprint (like OpenOffice.org), limited capability compared to the Windoze issue, but the price is definitely right if you're willing to place your trust in open source software (as did anyone with SSL, until recently). Long story there, but open-source can be hugely expensive if all potential holes are not plugged before it gets circulated and adopted by thousands of sites.
For everyday writing, Abiword remains the best and smallest platform. The only thing it cannot do is assign H1 and H2 headings to a document (something few casual users would want anyway). It can easily save as .DOC, or as .RTF to be 100% legible to other platforms.
Hmmm....Maybe I'll try Abiword.
Quote from: CG6468 on May 06, 2014, 07:35:08 PM
"Young Man." :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Anyone try LibreOffice as a replacement for Windoze Office?
Yup. I've been using OO for a decade, and LO for the past few years. Works great for me.
Quote from: CG6468 on May 06, 2014, 07:48:37 PM
Hmmm....Maybe I'll try Abiword.
Don't listen to quiller. He has no clue what he's talking about.
Quote from: taxed on May 06, 2014, 09:20:02 PM
Don't listen to quiller. He has no clue what he's talking about.
About Abiword? That it's not a small footprint word processor capable of all but the more complex tasks?
PROVE ME WRONG.
Quote from: quiller on May 07, 2014, 04:58:15 AM
About Abiword? That it's not a small footprint word processor capable of all but the more complex tasks?
PROVE ME WRONG.
It won't even load onto my MAC.
Quote from: CG6468 on May 07, 2014, 05:59:45 AM
It won't even load onto my MAC.
http://www.abisource.com/~fjf/ (http://www.abisource.com/~fjf/)
Also see here....
http://download.cnet.com/AbiWord/3000-2079_4-24932.html (http://download.cnet.com/AbiWord/3000-2079_4-24932.html)
I tried a couple of those MAC version sites. Still will not load.
Quote from: CG6468 on May 07, 2014, 09:11:33 AM
I tried a couple of those MAC version sites. Still will not load.
I have had no experience with Mac products, so I can't offer further ideas on that score, other than....
http://www.247techies.com/Apple/MacTech_Support.php?gclid=COrxqoKemr4CFZSMMgodE24AtA (http://www.247techies.com/Apple/MacTech_Support.php?gclid=COrxqoKemr4CFZSMMgodE24AtA)
Abiword for PC has worked flawlessly for me, for about six years now. The sole drawbacks for me are the heading codes (H1, H2) which cannot be added to a document (but can be adjusted in Word, even from .RTF).
Quote from: quiller on May 07, 2014, 04:58:15 AM
About Abiword? That it's not a small footprint word processor capable of all but the more complex tasks?
PROVE ME WRONG.
Your inaccurate post about LibreOffice being limited, and your perpetual implication that LO is some inferior application. It is a very small market share, but that doesn't equate to a few fringe users. It had 25mm downloads last year. Also, unless you're on the latest and greatest 8.1 Office, you aren't even in the conversation about LO vs MSO, because LO completely dominates anything you were using before Win 7.
You can't even watch youtube videos without your machine contracting AIDS. Why should he listen to you?
Quote from: CG6468 on May 07, 2014, 05:59:45 AM
It won't even load onto my MAC.
Use LibreOffice like tens of millions of others, like myself, are doing. I promise there is nothing you're doing in Word that you can't do in LO.
Here's what quiller sees when he boots up:
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F4%2F48%2FC64_startup_animiert.gif&hash=cd6017f83eb8e31c398f8702c5233950249e91ce)
I got it on my MAC and on the WIN8 laptop.
Quote from: CG6468 on May 07, 2014, 01:09:42 PM
I got it on my MAC and on the WIN8 laptop.
How do you like it? Personally, I don't like it very much. After I saw Mac Pages, it ruined me. Have you used Pages?
I have a comment directed at every geek who infests this particular forum.
When I boot up, I see Win-7 standard desktop. Whatever image that was, I've never seen it.
Next time try a little truth in your put-downs, Taxed. And don't ever think I will run out of images before you do.
Quote from: taxed on May 07, 2014, 01:11:07 PMHow do you like it? Personally, I don't like it very much. After I saw Mac Pages, it ruined me. Have you used Pages?
I haven't tried it out yet.
Quote from: quiller on May 07, 2014, 02:33:37 PM
I have a comment directed at every geek who infests this particular forum.
When I boot up, I see Win-7 standard desktop. Whatever image that was, I've never seen it.
Next time try a little truth in your put-downs, Taxed. And don't ever think I will run out of images before you do.
Sorry quiller. I thought you were the one who can't open Youtube videos. I had you mixed up with someone else.
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fstixblog.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F01%2FIE2.jpg&hash=e839090853b68e06facfd60e90e4d79a2818ce14)
Quote from: taxed on May 08, 2014, 12:13:53 AM
Sorry quiller. I thought you were the one who can't open Youtube videos. I had you mixed up with someone else.
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fstixblog.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F01%2FIE2.jpg&hash=e839090853b68e06facfd60e90e4d79a2818ce14)
I can open them. It's when they distract me all day that's the problem.....
Quote from: quiller on May 08, 2014, 07:01:52 AM
I can open them. It's when they distract me all day that's the problem.....
Oh. I thought it was a security issue.
Quote from: taxed on May 08, 2014, 02:47:11 PM
Oh. I thought it was a security issue.
:ttoung: I am not the YouTube user you are looking for. I get lost watching YouTube, there's so much of it to wade through. Oh yeah.....
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages19.fotki.com%2Fv678%2Fphotos%2F1%2F1595431%2F13000657%2Fgeeksanother_linuxdenier-vi.png&hash=9ce4ce8c20e4c09cd01150b6988e6c34b4493843)
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffuncorner.eu%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fhow-to-chose-the-right-operating-system.jpg&hash=5b794f76ce7ee8f583048f211e05147828d6746b)
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages108.fotki.com%2Fv1623%2Fphotos%2F1%2F1595431%2F13000657%2Fgeeksplaywithyourpython-vi.png&hash=e1896737977104ad0d3d70565b760f88a5deadd6)