Quote from: topside on February 24, 2017, 05:54:02 AM
Not following you. As said several time, EOs are for the executive branch's use to enforce the laws that the legislative branch sets. OB used it to basically form new laws - a mis-use. Now Trump is using the EOs to an extent to undo OBs crap - which, in some cases where he is undoing "fake law", it's a misuse from my viewpoint.

I was saying that I am enjoying the current mis-use as the OB eight years I just felt like road kill while he did what he wanted. The sugar high is Trump misusing (in some cases) to undo - a blessed relief from the OB years. But, as others have also said and I agree with, the mis-use should and probably will be closed off in some way as this administration progresses. EOs shouldn't be allowed to set laws or cancel them - that's what congress is supposed to do.

So what do you take issue with?

That was the point. How is it trump is misusing the law, or to be honest, your claim is, he's abusing the law. Show me an example of this supposed abuse.
It's the very reason I asked where you get your news that shapes your opinion that he's abusing his power?

Quote from: Solar on February 24, 2017, 06:03:45 AM
That was the point. How is it trump is misusing the law, or to be honest, your claim is, he's abusing the law. Show me an example of this supposed abuse.
It's the very reason I asked where you get your news that shapes your opinion that he's abusing his power?

Fair question. I was going by second-hand smoke as it's kinda time consuming to gather the support. But I like the question and want to work it a bit ... but have other things to do this morning. I'll post an update later this afternoon.

Quote from: topside on February 24, 2017, 06:23:59 AM
Fair question. I was going by second-hand smoke as it's kinda time consuming to gather the support. But I like the question and want to work it a bit ... but have other things to do this morning. I'll post an update later this afternoon.

Second hand smoke, is that code for MSNBC?

Quote from: Solar on February 24, 2017, 07:04:34 AM
Second hand smoke, is that code for MSNBC?

No - not MSNBC; I only get my information from CNN (not).  Cut me a little slack, will ya. Although, it was humourous. Your like some of my professors that loved smacking their students down while they try to learn from them. Never really understood it, but I had to take the heat to gain the knowledge on many occasions. But its a better experience when the professor is more understanding when the student is trying to work forward.

So second hand means how I sort a composite of information without trying to dig farther down towards bedrock - from all sources including what I've read / seen on this site. We all have to do it to a degree as looking at details takes time. We need to trust others on some topics to inform us - it's dangerous but difficult not to do.

Standby - I'm going down another layer with a little originality on this topic that I hope will be instructive and constructive for me and other members.

Quote from: topside on February 24, 2017, 12:31:48 PM
No - not MSNBC; I only get my information from CNN (not).  Cut me a little slack, will ya. Although, it was humourous. Your like some of my professors that loved smacking their students down while they try to learn from them. Never really understood it, but I had to take the heat to gain the knowledge on many occasions. But its a better experience when the professor is more understanding when the student is trying to work forward.

So second hand means how I sort a composite of information without trying to dig farther down towards bedrock - from all sources including what I've read / seen on this site. We all have to do it to a degree as looking at details takes time. We need to trust others on some topics to inform us - it's dangerous but difficult not to do.

Standby - I'm going down another layer with a little originality on this topic that I hope will be instructive and constructive for me and other members.

Seriously, CNN? THat's no different than MSNBC. But you still didn't answer the question.
"How is trump misusing the law, or to be honest, your claim is, he's abusing the law. Show me an example of this supposed abuse."

Quote from: Solar on February 24, 2017, 06:03:45 AM
That was the point. How is it trump is misusing the law, or to be honest, your claim is, he's abusing the law. Show me an example of this supposed abuse.
It's the very reason I asked where you get your news that shapes your opinion that he's abusing his power?

BO issued 276 orders according to one site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_executive_orders

So I spent some time reading Trumps twelve (so far) executive orders. There is a set of CYA (cover your ass) clauses at the bottom that, I think, the lawyers meant to say that these orders cannot contradict the Constitution or powers vested in the branches. But they look like cover to me - just so the orders can't be interpreted as working outside the bounds.

I also randomly sampled one of BOs executive orders for CYA statements:

Executive  Order  13754  of  December  9,  2016 
Northern  Bering  Sea  Climate  Resilience 

An obvious liberal order (why did our president mess with this?) The order is much longer than Trump's. It has some of the same CYA language at the end. It appears he was less cautious than Trump is being with the CYA language.

So now, back to the issue at hand. Is Trump mis-using (abusing) his power with the EOs. Here is a table of the EOs along with my viewpoint of which EOs are not in his court - CYA aside.



Ahh ... for some reason the table I posted won't show up on this page as an image. If an admin can see what I did wrong I would appreciate a pointer on how to fix it.

Here is the link if the paged doesn't show for you.

https://public.fotki.com/mgeile/topside-album/eodiscussion.html

So I think Trump is mis-using the EOs to a degree. As said above, I'm good with it to counter the BO orders.  But the branches need to get in their lanes for our republic to work as intended.

Quote from: topside on February 24, 2017, 01:26:32 PM
BO issued 276 orders according to one site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_executive_orders

So I spent some time reading Trumps twelve (so far) executive orders. There is a set of CYA (cover your ass) clauses at the bottom that, I think, the lawyers meant to say that these orders cannot contradict the Constitution or powers vested in the branches. But they look like cover to me - just so the orders can't be interpreted as working outside the bounds.

I looked at one of BOs executive orders.

Executive  Order  13754  of  December  9,  2016 
Northern  Bering  Sea  Climate  Resilience 

An obvious liberal type of order (why did our president mess with this?) But its much longer. It has some of the same CYA language at the end. It appears he was less cautious than Trump is being with the CYA language.

So now, back to the issue at hand. Is Trump mis-using (abusing) his power with the EOs. Here is a table of the EOs along with my viewpoint of which EOs are not in his court - CYA aside.

Ummm, can you at least give me one that shows Trump abused his Executive privilege? I'm lousy at mind reading....

Quote from: Solar on February 24, 2017, 01:36:38 PM
Ummm, can you at least give me one that shows Trump abused his Executive privilege? I'm lousy at mind reading....

Follow the link and look at the columns in dark red - I added those two that say which branch should own the topic of the EO and why. The ones marked Legislative I believe to be outside his privileged. For example, EO 13770.

Any pointers on why the http wouldn't post would be helpful too. I tried to insert the table for ease of reading but the code in there is failing for some reason. So I just put the link in but left the img code.

Quote from: topside on February 24, 2017, 01:43:08 PM
Follow the link and look at the columns in dark red - I added those two that say which branch should own the topic of the EO and why. The ones marked Legislative I believe to be outside his privileged. For example, EO 13770.

Any pointers on why the http wouldn't post would be helpful too. I tried to insert the table for ease of reading but the code in there is failing for some reason. So I just put the link in but left the img code.

No! You give me one! It's not my job to do your work for you.

Quote from: Solar on February 24, 2017, 02:00:42 PM
No! You give me one! It's not my job to do your work for you.

Whoa! I'm confused. I posted a table about all of Trump's EOs and tried to put it in the post. That failed so I provided this link (below) with my augmented table:

https://public.fotki.com/mgeile/topside-album/eodiscussion.html

I tested the link - it worked for me. Should be no work for you.

Quote from: topside on February 24, 2017, 02:04:53 PM
Whoa! I'm confused. I posted a table about all of Trump's EOs and tried to put it in the post. That failed so I provided this link (below) with my augmented table:

https://public.fotki.com/mgeile/topside-album/eodiscussion.html

I tested the link - it worked for me. Should be no work for you.

Are you Fuckin Thick? I said give me one, just one, that you claim represents Trump's abuse of power!
I won't ask again!!!!

Quote from: Solar on February 24, 2017, 02:08:07 PM
Are you Fuckin Thick? I said give me one, just one, that you claim represents Trump's abuse of power!
I won't ask again!!!!

I'm not your bitch Solar.

Quote from: topside on February 24, 2017, 02:19:22 PM
I'm not your bitch Solar.

You don't want to back up your claims? Fine, take a timeout.

Maybe when you come back, you will have an answer.
What you fail to understand, is when called on to support extreme claims, you either admit it was a stupid thing to say, or back it up, instead, you danced around and put the onus on me to do your work for you, but you see, I didn't make the ridiculous claim that Trump broke the law, you did, and it's incumbent on you to back up your claims!

So take 24 hours to think about it, then decide whether you want to continue this nonsensical BS or admit it was a stupid thing to say.

Quote from: Solar on February 24, 2017, 02:52:41 PM
You don't want to back up your claims? Fine, take a timeout.

Maybe when you come back, you will have an answer.
What you fail to understand, is when called on to support extreme claims, you either admit it was a stupid thing to say, or back it up, instead, you danced around and put the onus on me to do your work for you, but you see, I didn't make the ridiculous claim that Trump broke the law, you did, and it's incumbent on you to back up your claims!

So take 24 hours to think about it, then decide whether you want to continue this nonsensical BS or admit it was a stupid thing to say.

Actually the table he linked is his own work and does explain why he believes certain EO's are stretching executive authority. It outlines each EO signed by Trump along with dates and document numbers, then in the two right hand columns he opines which branch of government he thinks the authority belongs to and explains why.  IMO, not a bad piece of work, even though I disagree with many of his conclusions.

Quote from: zewazir on February 24, 2017, 04:43:42 PM
Actually the table he linked is his own work and does explain why he believes certain EO's are stretching executive authority. It outlines each EO signed by Trump along with dates and document numbers, then in the two right hand columns he opines which branch of government he thinks the authority belongs to and explains why.  IMO, not a bad piece of work, even though I disagree with many of his conclusions.

Problem was, the link didn't click through so I could examine it in detail.
I don't want his Fotki account, I want the actual source.