Quote from: carlb on November 28, 2015, 04:50:59 PM
Waterboarding's not torture.

I have no problem with it.

How times change! We certainly thought it was torture when the Japs did it to our POWs during the War, or when the NK Chinks did it to our POWs during the Korean War, or when the Cong did it to our men in 'Nam.

QuoteI see the AMERICAN soldier as God's angels on earth.

Really?

Quote from: Shooterman on November 29, 2015, 07:25:57 AM

Really?

Like I said, the Hollywood "Feel Good" version image of war.

Quote from: daidalos on November 28, 2015, 01:38:25 PM
Solar, ever seen any statistics on the veracity of intel obtained through that process?

Just wondering, as torture, such as oh I don't know, the rack, or iron maiden for example,
is notoriously proven to be in-effective in obtaining real information.

If the info obtained by "enhanced interrogation" from multiple detainees is consistent,
it's probably valid.
If the info is inconsistent, then the detainees are probably making things up just to stop the pain.

ABC's 20/20 ran a segment in 1990 or 91 about a guy who had been convicted of a murder
back when Bill Clinton was Arkansas' Attorney General.
The police had gotten (via torture) 13 different guys to confess to the same murder.
So it's pretty likely they had the wrong guy on death row.
And the guy's only hope was to be spared by the guy who had since became Governor - Bill Clinton.
Nope.

Quote from: quiller on November 28, 2015, 08:51:10 PM
Sleep deprivation, painfully loud music and strobe lights. Breakfast of champions.

A Madonna concert!

Hey!  Here's an idea!  We could use tasers!
Actually, that idea is not new. 
In Vietnam, they used what they called the Tucker telephone.
It's WHERE the electrodes were connected to the body
that made it especially intimidating.

Quote from: Solar on November 29, 2015, 07:17:57 AM
Some live the Hollywood image of war, where bombs always hit their target and only bad guys die quickly without suffer.

You left out all the times where the Lone Ranger would shoot the gun out of the bad guy's hand.

Quote from: Solar on November 28, 2015, 06:16:07 AM
Trump's point was, why only use it as an interrogation tactic, when you can use it as a deterrent.
Lets be honest, lets say, ISIS captures an American soldier, do you really think they won't torture him?
So why not show these scum we're far more brutal than they are and deter them from engaging us.

I have no doubt showing the enemy a video where
we surgically attach pig limbs, in place of arms and legs to one of their beloved,
the impact would be devastating to Muscum morale.
Yeah, even though I haven't the surgical expertise,
I'd happily volunteer to take on the project anyway.

Do I sound brutallty cruel?
Good, the enemy needs to know what Americans are capable of.

It's hard to deter people who are willing to do suicide missions.
They're already sacrificing their lives.
Deterrence would have to consist of making it clear to them that
the thing they value more than their lives,
the cause for which they are dying,
is certain to fail.

I am still convinced that Islam does not have a billion believers,
it has a billion HOSTAGES!
If the civilized world would occupy the Muslim world
like W occupied Iraq (especially after the surge)
the former hostages would volunteer intel to us,
to save themselves from the jihadists.

But since The Illegitimate One BETRAYED the former hostages
(the people of Iraq)
by giving their country back to the jihadists,
he deterred the GOOD people from ever giving us intel again!

W got at least one thing right: terrorists are "illegal combatants."
Is terrorism an act of war or a crime?
It's both!  It is a war crime!  It is a criminal form of warfare.
Terrorists should be treated as war criminals.
They're not just people who got drafted and sent to war
and got captured and became POWs, like in past wars.
They volunteered to "go forth and commit war crimes."

Fight and capture them as in regular warfare,
and then hold trials and punish them as war criminals.

Je Freedom...best post I've seen all month.

I have long thought that terrorism should be a war crime

Treat terrorists as war criminals.

Hunt them, kill them, if any are captured, try them as war criminals and hang them.....ride with an outlaw, die with an outlaw.

Quote from: je_freedom on November 29, 2015, 05:36:11 PM

If the info obtained by "enhanced interrogation" from multiple detainees is consistent,
it's probably valid.
If the info is inconsistent, then the detainees are probably making things up just to stop the pain.

ABC's 20/20 ran a segment in 1990 or 91 about a guy who had been convicted of a murder
back when Bill Clinton was Arkansas' Attorney General.
The police had gotten (via torture) 13 different guys to confess to the same murder.
So it's pretty likely they had the wrong guy on death row.
And the guy's only hope was to be spared by the guy who had since became Governor - Bill Clinton.
Nope.

A Madonna concert!

Hey!  Here's an idea!  We could use tasers!
Actually, that idea is not new. 
In Vietnam, they used what they called the Tucker telephone.
It's WHERE the electrodes were connected to the body
that made it especially intimidating.

You left out all the times where the Lone Ranger would shoot the gun out of the bad guy's hand.
It's hard to deter people who are willing to do suicide missions.
They're already sacrificing their lives.
Deterrence would have to consist of making it clear to them that
the thing they value more than their lives,
the cause for which they are dying,
is certain to fail.

I am still convinced that Islam does not have a billion believers,
it has a billion HOSTAGES!
If the civilized world would occupy the Muslim world
like W occupied Iraq (especially after the surge)
the former hostages would volunteer intel to us,
to save themselves from the jihadists.

But since The Illegitimate One BETRAYED the former hostages
(the people of Iraq)
by giving their country back to the jihadists,
he deterred the GOOD people from ever giving us intel again!

W got at least one thing right: terrorists are "illegal combatants."
Is terrorism an act of war or a crime?
It's both!  It is a war crime!  It is a criminal form of warfare.
Terrorists should be treated as war criminals.
They're not just people who got drafted and sent to war
and got captured and became POWs, like in past wars.
They volunteered to "go forth and commit war crimes."

Fight and capture them as in regular warfare,
and then hold trials and punish them as war criminals.

Well stated JE, but you missed my earlier point, that they deserve torture, if for no other reason, as a message to others considering following their lead.
If it dissuades one terrorist, then it was worth it.

Quote from: Solar on November 29, 2015, 05:53:55 PM
Well stated JE, but you missed my earlier point, that they deserve torture, if for no other reason, as a message to others considering following their lead.
If it dissuades one terrorist, then it was worth it.

The thing about that that bothers me is that
there are some people who were captured in Iraq,
taken to Guantanamo, interrogated,
and found that they were not involved in enemy action.
They were captured because they had a neighbor who hated them
and gave America bad intel.

Quote from: je_freedom on November 29, 2015, 10:06:56 PM
The thing about that that bothers me is that
there are some people who were captured in Iraq,
taken to Guantanamo, interrogated,
and found that they were not involved in enemy action.
They were captured because they had a neighbor who hated them
and gave America bad intel.

I'm not talking about gathering intel, I'm talking about combatants captured, scum that intended to maim and torture under a suicide run for 72 virgins.
Yeah, I have no issue with a public skinning, genital mutilation, appendages removed one at a time, for the sole purpose that the enemy gets a solidly clear message, we're far more brutal than you and look forward to our next captive.
You can't tell me that wouldn't cut their recruitment numbers to near zero.

No other nation in the history of earth has taken the precautions protecting the innocent as we have, and the harder we try, and yet mistakes are made and innocent die, the enemy uses the incident like a weapon for public opinion.
It's war, war kills things and blows things up. War could be avoided entirely if we as a nation would cut the bull shit and level parts of sand Hell and turn it to glass.
We have protracted wars because we hamstring ourselves with ridiculous rules no other nation in history ever practiced, and of all places, the M/E sees it as a weakness, and it is.

Maybe, just maybe if war wasn't made to look so surgical and clean and PC, there might be a lot less of it.

Quote from: Shooterman on November 29, 2015, 07:25:57 AM

Really?

Just came back to this ridiculous thread.

Great, well thought out comeback.

I understood when I posted 90% of this audience would not understand what I said, having a child'd understanding of God's angels.

Like I said, ask a resident of Sodom about pissing off God's angels -- oh wait, that city is salt for the rest of time! They ceased to exist that day.

Yeah, AMERICANS dont skin humans alive. Sick fucks! That's not how you win wars. It's how you lose your civilization to better people. It's why we were given this land and the barbarians here before lost it.

Like I said, all the Founding Fathers understood this. Don't make yourselves look as ridiculous as Trump.

Somebody here needs a lesson in how condescension is done.

I don't want my tax dollars spent on military tribunals for terrorists.

We already know that the terrorist is assigned a civilian attorney that holds the trial hostage to classified information that cannot be divulged in court.  So the case languishes for months on end and the terrorist ends up getting a slap on the hand and a free ticket back to the battle front!

We should take no terrorist to court.   If someone is captured they should experience enhanced interrogation for information.  If it is determined that he is not a true terrorist, release him.  If he is a terrorist.... more enhanced interrogation ....  make his life absolutely miserable until he hangs himself!!!

I do not believe we should waste our tax dollars on defending terrorists in a court.

Quote from: carlb on November 30, 2015, 02:49:05 AM
Just came back to this ridiculous thread.

Great, well thought out comeback.

I understood when I posted 90% of this audience would not understand what I said, having a child'd understanding of God's angels.

Like I said, ask a resident of Sodom about pissing off God's angels -- oh wait, that city is salt for the rest of time! They ceased to exist that day.

Yeah, AMERICANS dont skin humans alive. Sick fucks! That's not how you win wars. It's how you lose your civilization to better people. It's why we were given this land and the barbarians here before lost it.

Like I said, all the Founding Fathers understood this. Don't make yourselves look as ridiculous as Trump.

It is doubtful, Mon Ami, you are the only one with a personal interpretation of scriptures. The world is awash in it. I revere our troops that are SENT into harms way as much as anybody, however I do not equate them with the angels of God ( after all they were creations of Him as well ) sent on a mission to make the world over in our image.

I notice, as well, you conveniently ignored my answer about how we considered the 'waterboading' the Japs did or the NKs did, or the Cong did, all as torture.

As for this being a ridiculous thread, may I suggest you take that up with the creator of the thread.

Quote from: carlb on November 30, 2015, 02:49:05 AM
Just came back to this ridiculous thread.

Great, well thought out comeback.

I understood when I posted 90% of this audience would not understand what I said, having a child'd understanding of God's angels.

Like I said, ask a resident of Sodom about pissing off God's angels -- oh wait, that city is salt for the rest of time! They ceased to exist that day.

Yeah, AMERICANS dont skin humans alive. Sick fucks! That's not how you win wars. It's how you lose your civilization to better people. It's why we were given this land and the barbarians here before lost it.

Like I said, all the Founding Fathers understood this. Don't make yourselves look as ridiculous as Trump.

So from your obvious avoidance I can assume in response to my query, that your wife's death was for naught, and that your children would suffer a similar fate, all because you hamstrung yourself with religion?
Or are their lives worth a little moral sacrifice on your part?
In my world, God would not only forgive me, but think what an idiot dumb ass for not accepting the opportunity he laid at my feet in the form of injured information.

Live your 1940 Hollywood fantasy world, but like it or not, the world is full of evil, and the only way to defeat evil is using the same tactics as does evil itself.

Quote from: SalemCat on November 28, 2015, 05:02:09 PM
Tell ya what - I will burn in hell.

But once the Enemy starts something, I'd like to end it.

Eye for an Eye.

God never said we are to be blind, stupid sheep being led to the slaughter.

That is NOT what "turn the other cheek was".

And something you will rarely if ever hear a preacher addressing, is the fact that in what is called the "great commission" When Jesus sent the apostles out, he also told them to take and carry a sword. Why would he do that? Answer because God expects us to defend ourselves from time to time.

Quote from: kroz on November 30, 2015, 05:12:32 AM
I don't want my tax dollars spent on military tribunals for terrorists.

We already know that the terrorist is assigned a civilian attorney that holds the trial hostage to classified information that cannot be divulged in court.  So the case languishes for months on end and the terrorist ends up getting a slap on the hand and a free ticket back to the battle front!

We should take no terrorist to court.   If someone is captured they should experience enhanced interrogation for information.  If it is determined that he is not a true terrorist, release him.  If he is a terrorist.... more enhanced interrogation ....  make his life absolutely miserable until he hangs himself!!!

I do not believe we should waste our tax dollars on defending terrorists in a court.

Absolutely Kroz! I see no reason to afford our enemies the rights of Americans by by charging them civilly.
Nope, Military laws and regs of war, nothing more.
Granted, we've hamstrung our military, as we've seen demonstrated by exchanging a traitor for four terrorists, a man that should have received a firing squad return.

Quote from: kroz on November 30, 2015, 05:12:32 AM
I don't want my tax dollars spent on military tribunals for terrorists.

We already know that the terrorist is assigned a civilian attorney that holds the trial hostage to classified information that cannot be divulged in court.  So the case languishes for months on end and the terrorist ends up getting a slap on the hand and a free ticket back to the battle front!

We should take no terrorist to court.   If someone is captured they should experience enhanced interrogation for information.  If it is determined that he is not a true terrorist, release him.  If he is a terrorist.... more enhanced interrogation ....  make his life absolutely miserable until he hangs himself!!!

I do not believe we should waste our tax dollars on defending terrorists in a court.

Military tribunals for war crimes, when DONE PROPERLY, are notoriously swift and decisive. I cite the Nuremburg trials and the Japanese Imperial Troops that McArthur executed,including General Yamashita, the architect of the invasion of SEA. Something you rarely hear about coz these tribunals were conducted in the field and not a big show like Nuremburg.

These idiotic things that weretaking place by the Bush admin was an appeasement to the flaming Liberals who kept clamoring for 'civilain trials" on US soil.....I am dead set against that.

Miitary tribunal (courts martial) for any captured terrorists, IMMEDIATELY in the field, if found guilty, hanging....shooting is a soldier's death, they don't deserve that coz they are NOT soldiers....and it is a waste of bullets