Quote from: quiller on May 02, 2015, 07:09:47 AM
(*genteel snork*) I don't know where YOU got YOUR schoolin', podnuh, but I read "1984" and "Brave New World" in eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh and twelfth grades, and each new reading brought fresh insights into where we were headed. For example: author Eric Blair ("George Orwell") was a committed socialist. Today, socialists try everything they can to ignore his predictions, whereas the public itself cannot.

By the time it came out that NSA and ATT were lockstepping to intercept ALL, repeat ALL undersea cable traffic (the preferred data transmission method even today for the biggest banks), that die of government snooping was already cast...years before Snowden. The difference between that sort of snooping and what happens to private citizens is, of course, the real meat in these debates.

Were Snowden's disclosures more damaging to government credibility, or to national security? I say the latter, whereas you rightly do point out the damage to the former. The true extent of what Snowden did acquire is not yet known, but the closer to Election 2016 it's probable his most damaging-to-Republicans material is sure to leak out.

Lest I be accused of waffling so hard I need butter and syrup, let me also say Snowden should be hanged within ten minutes of reaching U.S. soil. But yea verily, the only thing different with him is the volume of material and the league of treasonists willing to help him.

You're 180 off of reality here pod-nuh. What he exposed hurts govt credibility as well as both party's equally.
I've given this a Hell of a lot of thought, and had I been in his position and privy to the truth of an overbearing and intrusive govt, the very one our Founders warned us about?

I too would have exposed the monster as well.. This behemoth isn't spying outwardly nearly as much as it is inwardly.
I don't know about you, but I'm not complacent with the idea of the govt knowing my every movement and will fight back against this entity where ever it comes creeping.

Do you seriously trust a govt that doesn't trust you?

Snowden deserves our thanks, not our ridicule. You may trust this govt, but I sure as Hell don't!

>Solar

He betrayed national security. That remains vastly paramount to the privacy issue which I do agree with you on.

I suppose I remain fixated on the idea that overall, despite political leanings, there are and always will be ethical people within the system who will expose these things through heretofore expected means. (Unexpected unicorns and pixie-dust? Nah. Faith in Americans.)

Snowden STOLE this stuff. To me there's an ethical point right there, added to the notion that what's out there ALREADY is only a portion of what he has. Everything he took needs to be tracked down and weighed on its own merit (to avoid your idea of trusting the government as a whole).

Quote from: quiller on May 02, 2015, 09:14:35 AM
>Solar

He betrayed national security. That remains vastly paramount to the privacy issue which I do agree with you on.

But did he? Look at what he exposed, all he did was embarrass Dims, he has yet to release anything we didn't already suspect.

QuoteI suppose I remain fixated on the idea that overall, despite political leanings, there are and always will be ethical people within the system who will expose these things through heretofore expected means. (Unexpected unicorns and pixie-dust? Nah. Faith in Americans.)

ummm, OK...?

QuoteSnowden STOLE this stuff. To me there's an ethical point right there

,
Exactly my point, what he did was the ethical thing to do.
Something  believe our Founders would applaud.

Quoteadded to the notion that what's out there ALREADY is only a portion of what he has. Everything he took needs to be tracked down and weighed on its own merit (to avoid your idea of trusting the government as a whole).

What he exposed was the truth, what he has left,(we have no idea), protects his ass from those that want him dead, which happens to be the Marxists.

As I said earlier, I too would have done the exact same thing, release just the right information, without endangering lives.

Snowden is definitely a paradox.

I have one foot in each side of this dilemma.  I think Snowden did something important for all Americans but I think he did it wrong.  Going to Russia was a big, big mistake.  You know that Putin got what he wanted from Snowden.  Putin is a lot smarter than Snowden.  He was out of his element in Russia.

Snowden is no paradox, while many applaud him for exposing the Dim Govt, I can't help but wonder WHAT ElSE Snowden bargained with. It HAD to be something other than outing the Obamao Regime and the NSA

Here are just some thoughts.

I find it highly suspicious that Snowden who was essentially a Govt Hacker who knew how to hack into EVERYONES' email and bypass the best security systems that PRIVATE INDUSTRY concocted end s up working for some Russian "internet security" firm and after that Target is getting hack, tens of thousands of US BANK accounts get hacked, VISA, MASTER CHARGE etc  etc. all all that crap is traced back to China and Russia...two enemy countries. And that means that more than just the Dems pants got pulled down, that means that tens of thousands of innocent American citizens were impacted adversely by the little weasle

We don;t know what international Undercover agents, double agents spying on enemy countries and Protected informers
were exposed, people "disappeared" and what US intelligence programs designed to protect the USA were exposed.

Now here is a disturbing thought that I have pondered for quite some time.

The OBAMAO regime could have stopped Snowden in his tracks IF THEY WANTED TOO....But Hussein sort of shrugged it off and even made jokes about it. Obamao knew exactly what Snowden had, he knew the damage it would do to the USA....MAYBE THATS WHY HE GAVE SNOWDEN A PASS.....Anything that harms the US internationally diminishes our capacity to defend ourselves he is all for. ANything that harms Big Business, commerce, corporations that he hates is all good and well with him.

Can you imagine what would have Happened under Reagan had Snowden pulled this crap? We'd have parked an aircraft carrier in Mirs bay and warned the Chinese that any aircraft leaving HK international with him aboard would be escorted to Guam by a squad of F1 11's

Under the CLinton regime anybody who dissed Bill so (and vicariously Hillary) would have ended up swimming in Hong Kong Bay with cinderblocks wired to their feet.

Under Bush Snowden would be in a strait jacket in a CIA secret prison somewhere babbling in an isolation cell with all sort of drugs scrambling his brains

And in the end what damage did Snowden's little sock puppet show do the Obamunists?    Not a blessed thing

If Snowden is to be believed, he didn't steal passwords or hack anything, he simply logged in to a system that was woefully unprotected.
Personally, I believe him. Why lie?

QuoteSnowden had previously said he didn't steal any passwords or trick his co-workers.

http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-14/story-edward-snowden-so-unbelievable-sometimes-you-forget-its-nonfiction

Quote from: Solar on May 03, 2015, 04:16:52 PM
If Snowden is to be believed, he didn't steal passwords or hack anything, he simply logged in to a system that was woefully unprotected.
Personally, I believe him. Why lie?

http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-14/story-edward-snowden-so-unbelievable-sometimes-you-forget-its-nonfiction

Have no idea what Snowden had and still does.  Do I question his giving any of it to Putin?  Well, put it this way, he now has a new home whether he wants it in Russia or not.  His error?  Stealing information via internet/however, no worse than what the government that wants to punish him has done.  Where do some of you think that we shouldn't just band together, go to DC and demand those scoundrels in government be outed for good and made answerable for the mistrust they have created?  Punish a citizen for the exact same thing they have done?  Snowden was and is only playing this game by their rules. 

Quote from: keyboarder on May 03, 2015, 05:24:07 PM
Have no idea what Snowden had and still does.  Do I question his giving any of it to Putin?  Well, put it this way, he now has a new home whether he wants it in Russia or not.  His error?  Stealing information via internet/however, no worse than what the government that wants to punish him has done.  Where do some of you think that we shouldn't just band together, go to DC and demand those scoundrels in government be outed for good and made answerable for the mistrust they have created?  Punish a citizen for the exact same thing they have done?  Snowden was and is only playing this game by their rules.

Exactly! They never asked us for the information, and in many cases never got a warrant.

If an officer of the court was giving information to the DA, that was privy to the defendant in a trial, and someone turned them in, are they considered traitors as well?

I'll say it again. Had I been in his shoes, and found out our govt was breaking all the laws they are sworn to protect....As a Conservative? It is incumbent upon me as a citizen to expose them.
We're not liberals, where breaking the rules is acceptable.

Quote from: Solar on May 03, 2015, 04:16:52 PM
If Snowden is to be believed, he didn't steal passwords or hack anything, he simply logged in to a system that was woefully unprotected.
Personally, I believe him. Why lie?

http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-14/story-edward-snowden-so-unbelievable-sometimes-you-forget-its-nonfiction

Yeah I'm sure he hasTremendous credibility.....

Quote from: Billy's bayonet on May 03, 2015, 07:01:46 PM

Yeah I'm sure he hasTremendous credibility.....

Like I said, I put myself in his shoes, because sometimes events are bigger than the individual.
Had this happened 30 years ago, I'd have called for his execution.

But the US is nothing like it was 30 years back. It's downright Marxist in it's direction, and anything that exposes these bastards for the traitors to the Constitution they've become, Then in my book, Snowden is a hero.

Billy, I have no doubt you and I see eye to eye on how traitors to the nation should be dealt with.
But the line has become seriously blurred since the Establishment and Marxists have screwed everything up.
The real traitor sits in the WH....

Quote from: quiller on May 02, 2015, 05:38:44 AM
Probably waiting to unload damaging info against Republicans. Snowden is not exactly a showroom model for conservatives: the majority of leaks involve what happened on Bush's watch.

AGREED!  Politics makes very strange bedfellows.  Although Benedict Arnold's name has become synonomous with "Traitor", he made great contibutions to the cause of our Liberty and our untimate defeat of the British.  Arguably, before Gen. Arnold  betrayed us, his victories laid a foundation for our eventual success.

Eric Snowden is a dispicable Traitor, as was Benedict Arnold.  Snowden took it upon himself to do what he believed was in the best interests of his fellow citizens, by betraying the goverment he was pledged to serve (much the same as the Traitor, Benedict Arnold).

The secrets he learned about our goverment, drove him to do what he thought best and betray those  people. How much of what Eric Snowden discovered is actually known to the American people.  I'm sure Vladimir Putin knows a whole lot about our former Sec. of State and our President and Attorney General and all  the other (as of yet) unidicted co-conspitators.  It presents a plausible argument as to why Putin is acting as if he has nothing to fear from this goverment! 

As much as I hold Eric Snowden in contempt, if he does have the goods on Obama and Clinton and "all the President's men" I would agree it is in the best interest of our country that he be granted immunity in exchange for the evidence to bring this goverment down and thus restore the rule of law.
Dispicable criminals are granted immunity all the times, in order to unravel an ongoing criminal conspiracy; which many of us suspect this goverment has become!

Quote from: wally on May 04, 2015, 08:00:08 AM
AGREED! ( . . . )

Eric Snowden is a dispicable Traitor, as was Benedict Arnold.  Snowden took it upon himself to do what he believed was in the best interests of his fellow citizens, by betraying the goverment he was pledged to serve (much the same as the Traitor, Benedict Arnold). (. . . )

As much as I hold Eric Snowden in contempt, if he does have the goods on Obama and Clinton and "all the President's men" I would agree it is in the best interest of our country that he be granted immunity in exchange for the evidence to bring this goverment down and thus restore the rule of law.

Dispicable criminals are granted immunity all the times, in order to unravel an ongoing criminal conspiracy; which many of us suspect this goverment has become!

Take that, copper! 



Granted immunity by the Lynch mob at DOJ? Even if Gowdy gets a true bill of goods against these trash, Lynch will shelve it faster than the eye can follow (or the First Circuit "decides" on some obscure point only and ignores the rest of the issue).

After the Fitzgerald debacle it isn't likely they'll renew the special prosecutor law, so without that to justify sidestepping DOJ, where else could this go? Does Gowdy have the weight to swing renewal of that prosecutorial avenue? How strong is his Congressional support here, anyway?

Quote from: wally on May 04, 2015, 08:00:08 AM
AGREED!  Politics makes very strange bedfellows.  Although Benedict Arnold's name has become synonomous with "Traitor", he made great contibutions to the cause of our Liberty and our untimate defeat of the British.  Arguably, before Gen. Arnold  betrayed us, his victories laid a foundation for our eventual success.

Eric Snowden is a dispicable Traitor, as was Benedict Arnold.  Snowden took it upon himself to do what he believed was in the best interests of his fellow citizens, by betraying the goverment he was pledged to serve (much the same as the Traitor, Benedict Arnold).

The secrets he learned about our goverment, drove him to do what he thought best and betray those  people. How much of what Eric Snowden discovered is actually known to the American people.  I'm sure Vladimir Putin knows a whole lot about our former Sec. of State and our President and Attorney General and all  the other (as of yet) unidicted co-conspitators.  It presents a plausible argument as to why Putin is acting as if he has nothing to fear from this goverment! 

As much as I hold Eric Snowden in contempt, if he does have the goods on Obama and Clinton and "all the President's men" I would agree it is in the best interest of our country that he be granted immunity in exchange for the evidence to bring this goverment down and thus restore the rule of law.
Dispicable criminals are granted immunity all the times, in order to unravel an ongoing criminal conspiracy; which many of us suspect this goverment has become!

My point exactly with the taking of the oath.  Obola took the same oath  and where has this lead us?  When the sacred oath means little if nothing to a leader of a country, where DO we go from here?  I grew up with having all the due respect for my country and it's leaders, thinking that learned people surely knew better about these choices than I.   What a joke on me that has turned out.  Now, I have nothing but disdain for any of them except our country.  I think our country will gain under sane, sensible, conservative  leadership but also a very non-self serving collection of individuals with no interest other than saving the country and it's people from being destroyed. 

Quote from: keyboarder on May 04, 2015, 09:12:56 AM
My point exactly with the taking of the oath.  Obola took the same oath  and where has this lead us?  When the sacred oath means little if nothing to a leader of a country, where DO we go from here?  I grew up with having all the due respect for my country and it's leaders, thinking that learned people surely knew better about these choices than I.   What a joke on me that has turned out.  Now, I have nothing but disdain for any of them except our country.  I think our country will gain under sane, sensible, conservative  leadership but also a very non-self serving collection of individuals with no interest other than saving the country and it's people from being destroyed.

I took my oath of office every four years and I am no different than millions of others of us who held our oathes sacred. I have nothing but contmept forthe lowlifes who betray(ed) their oath and became criminals themselves.  I have not waivered in my belief in the words and meaning of the oath one takes to unhold the laws and our Constitution.  I believe we surround them; everyone who has ever served in any branch of the military, or held any elected or appointed office for state, local or federal goverment.  Those who fail to live up to the standard of the oath they have sworn ought to be removed from office..en masse!  Anyone who has additionally committed any crime, ought to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  Future generations need to know that oathes matter, as does our COnstitution and the rule of law.

When people have had enough of the lawlessness of their Public Servants, we will take our country back!  The real unknown question is: what will it take for the American people to have had enough and are willing to stand up for America!

Quote from: wally on May 04, 2015, 12:09:19 PM
I took my oath of office every four years and I am no different than millions of others of us who held our oathes sacred. I have nothing but contmept forthe lowlifes who betray(ed) their oath and became criminals themselves.  I have not waivered in my belief in the words and meaning of the oath one takes to unhold the laws and our Constitution.  I believe we surround them; everyone who has ever served in any branch of the military, or held any elected or appointed office for state, local or federal goverment.  Those who fail to live up to the standard of the oath they have sworn ought to be removed from office..en masse!  Anyone who has additionally committed any crime, ought to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  Future generations need to know that oathes matter, as does our COnstitution and the rule of law.

When people have had enough of the lawlessness of their Public Servants, we will take our country back!  The real unknown question is: what will it take for the American people to have had enough and are willing to stand up for America!

Isn't breaking your oath of office grounds for dismissal from a civil service job? If it isn't that is a law congress should waist no time passing! It could assist in the Purge after the 2016 election!!