Full disclosure - I'm a new member, I'm interested in conservative politics, and although I plan to read a lot of what is on here, I may not post very much (time concerns - something I ran into trouble with when I was a regular on a different forum several years back).
That said, I recently published an ebook on secession (entitled --URL REMOVED BY TAXED--, which is the last shameless plug on it I'll make) and have been interested in what other conservatives tend to think of secession as a means to address political problems. Clearly those who circulated and signed the petitions recognized that the petitions would fail - it could never be more than a publicity stunt to show disapproval with the presidential election. However, established movements have had substantial support for years in Texas, New Hampshire, Vermont, as well as other states and regions. Those individuals subscribing to that philosophy have a genuine interest in effecting their removal from the union.
My question - is secession treasonous, radical, or conservative? I'm curious what your thoughts are.
Quote from: rkluess on February 07, 2013, 11:25:05 AM
Full disclosure - I'm a new member, I'm interested in conservative politics, and although I plan to read a lot of what is on here, I may not post very much (time concerns - something I ran into trouble with when I was a regular on a different forum several years back).
That said, I recently published an ebook on secession (entitled --URL REMOVED BY TAXED--, which is the last shameless plug on it I'll make) and have been interested in what other conservatives tend to think of secession as a means to address political problems. Clearly those who circulated and signed the petitions recognized that the petitions would fail - it could never be more than a publicity stunt to show disapproval with the presidential election. However, established movements have had substantial support for years in Texas, New Hampshire, Vermont, as well as other states and regions. Those individuals subscribing to that philosophy have a genuine interest in effecting their removal from the union.
My question - is secession treasonous, radical, or conservative? I'm curious what your thoughts are.
Next time, shamelessly ask.
I can't post a link to something on which I have the copyright, which is relevant to the topic, and which I am clearly and specifically telling people what it is?
Quote from: rkluess on February 07, 2013, 11:30:26 AM
I can't post a link to something on which I have the copyright, which is relevant to the topic, and which I am clearly and specifically telling people what it is?
If it's free, sure, but not if you're plugging it in hopes of a few sales.
Interesting. So if I started a topic on soft drinks and how they relate to healthcare in a positive manner, and in my topic stated that I knew what I was talking about because I worked as a salesman for Coca-Cola (with a link to my profile at coca-cola), that link would be edited out as well?
Quote from: rkluess on February 07, 2013, 11:38:11 AM
Interesting. So if I started a topic on soft drinks and how they relate to healthcare in a positive manner, and in my topic stated that I knew what I was talking about because I worked as a salesman for Coca-Cola (with a link to my profile at coca-cola), that link would be edited out as well?
Is your book free?
The link is free. I get nothing if you click on the link. But by putting the link, you can see that I'm not bullshitting about it, that I've done some research on the topic, and that I might have some credibility.
Quote from: rkluess on February 07, 2013, 11:44:34 AM
The link is free. I get nothing if you click on the link. But by putting the link, you can see that I'm not bullshitting about it, that I've done some research on the topic, and that I might have some credibility.
Are you seriously arguing with us about promoting your book (hence, your "shameless plug" comment)?
Quote from: rkluess on February 07, 2013, 11:44:34 AM
The link is free. I get nothing if you click on the link. But by putting the link, you can see that I'm not bullshitting about it, that I've done some research on the topic, and that I might have some credibility.
So it's not free? You miss the point, if someone comes here and their first post is to something they're selling, then it gets removed, it really is that simple.
Now you could do as the rest of the members and dazzle us with your learned intellect and as time goes by it should be quite apparent as to whether or not you know the subject inside and out.
Feel free to post like the rest and give some insight to your views, we are a debate forum, if you believe we should secede or not, then state why.
I'm trying to understand where I violated TOS? Because by the responding posts, you've labelled me as a spammer, apparently, because I'm not sure where else that could arguably be against any TOS. And it wasn't done as spam - the surrounding language was meant to be funny. Now pretty much everything I say is dead in here because I'm "that guy who tried to sell a book."
This is like walking into a party, introducing yourself and putting out an interesting topic for discussion only to have someone clap their hand over your mouth because you announce one of your credentials relevant to the topic. If the link was against TOS (which, I'm not sure it was), disable the damn link, don't place a giant "CENSORED" over it and call attention to it. Christ.
Quote from: rkluess on February 07, 2013, 11:56:25 AM
I'm trying to understand where I violated TOS?
Clearly.
Quote
Because by the responding posts, you've labelled me as a spammer, apparently, because I'm not sure where else that could arguably be against any TOS. And it wasn't done as spam - the surrounding language was meant to be funny. Now pretty much everything I say is dead in here because I'm "that guy who tried to sell a book."
Solar and I have turned down advertisers. We are getting a lot of traffic, and it is growing, so this is a growing valuable medium. We err on the side of ethics and common courtesy, so if you want to post a link on someone's forum, you should ask. You're not a spammer, but you are leaving yourself an out for not coming back by saying your credibility is shot. Nice try though. If you want to stay, become part of the CPF community, then cool.
Quote
This is like walking into a party, introducing yourself and putting out an interesting topic for discussion only to have someone clap their hand over your mouth because you announce one of your credentials relevant to the topic. If the link was against TOS (which, I'm not sure it was), disable the damn link, don't place a giant "CENSORED" over it and call attention to it. Christ.
No. It's like you walking into a party and pitching some MLM or Amway scheme. You weren't there for the party.
Quote from: rkluess on February 07, 2013, 11:56:25 AM
I'm trying to understand where I violated TOS? Because by the responding posts, you've labelled me as a spammer, apparently, because I'm not sure where else that could arguably be against any TOS. And it wasn't done as spam - the surrounding language was meant to be funny. Now pretty much everything I say is dead in here because I'm "that guy who tried to sell a book."
This is like walking into a party, introducing yourself and putting out an interesting topic for discussion only to have someone clap their hand over your mouth because you announce one of your credentials relevant to the topic. If the link was against TOS (which, I'm not sure it was), disable the damn link, don't place a giant "CENSORED" over it and call attention to it. Christ.
Good, now that you got that out of the way, lets address your question.
QuoteMy question - is secession treasonous, radical, or conservative? I'm curious what your thoughts are.
It essentially is none and all of the above, it depends on the reasons for secession.
Say for example, if Ca wanted to secede from the US, I'd say treasonous, because it would quickly go communist, based on today's leadership, but if Texas did the same, no one could blame them.
But if you asked a lib, the response would be the exact opposite, just my opinion.
Quote from: taxed on February 07, 2013, 12:04:28 PM
No. It's like you walking into a party and pitching some MLM or Amway scheme. You weren't there for the party.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Nailed it!
I get that you are trying to protect your site from advertisers. Again, context should matter towards that, and if you can't see from the context that I wasn't walking in saying, "Hey, buy this, buy this, buy this," then this site is going to have some severe problems.
Quote from: taxed on February 07, 2013, 12:04:28 PM
You're not a spammer, but you are leaving yourself an out for not coming back by saying your credibility is shot. Nice try though. If you want to stay, become part of the CPF community, then cool.
If you don't believe I'm a spammer, then I'm not sure what the original issue was? Again, if the link was against TOS (which I don't believe it was), disable the link rather than censor it. Had I not used the information as a link would it have been edited out? Because if the answer is no, then I really don't understand the issue? This strikes me as admins flexing their muscle against a new poster, which is a great way to make someone want to stay.
Quote from: Solar on February 07, 2013, 12:07:20 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Nailed it!
Bate and Switch. :rolleyes:
Gotcha. So this is one of those forums where posters prefer the zingers and one-liners as opposed to actual open discussion? It's always fun when the admins and mods are the first to do that.
Quote from: Solar on February 07, 2013, 12:07:20 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Nailed it!
Quote from: walkstall on February 07, 2013, 12:23:55 PM
Bate and Switch. :rolleyes:
Quote from: rkluess on February 07, 2013, 12:15:09 PM
I get that you are trying to protect your site from advertisers. Again, context should matter towards that, and if you can't see from the context that I wasn't walking in saying, "Hey, buy this, buy this, buy this," then this site is going to have some severe problems.
You're member number 1903. The site has been doing fine before you.
Quote
If you don't believe I'm a spammer, then I'm not sure what the original issue was? Again, if the link was against TOS (which I don't believe it was), disable the link rather than censor it. Had I not used the information as a link would it have been edited out? Because if the answer is no, then I really don't understand the issue? This strikes me as admins flexing their muscle against a new poster, which is a great way to make someone want to stay.
I was trying to be nice. I do think you're a spammer. However, if you can stay and contribute discussion and intellect to the forum, then great, and welcome aboard.
Quote from: rkluess on February 07, 2013, 12:30:28 PM
Gotcha. So this is one of those forums where posters prefer the zingers and one-liners as opposed to actual open discussion? It's always fun when the admins and mods are the first to do that.
Wait until Bert jumps in....
Quote from: rkluess on February 07, 2013, 11:25:05 AM
Full disclosure - I'm a new member, I'm interested in conservative politics, and although I plan to read a lot of what is on here, I may not post very much (time concerns - something I ran into trouble with when I was a regular on a different forum several years back).
That said, I recently published an ebook on secession (entitled --URL REMOVED BY TAXED--, which is the last shameless plug on it I'll make) and have been interested in what other conservatives tend to think of secession as a means to address political problems. Clearly those who circulated and signed the petitions recognized that the petitions would fail - it could never be more than a publicity stunt to show disapproval with the presidential election. However, established movements have had substantial support for years in Texas, New Hampshire, Vermont, as well as other states and regions. Those individuals subscribing to that philosophy have a genuine interest in effecting their removal from the union.
My question - is secession treasonous, radical, or conservative? I'm curious what your thoughts are.
I will answer before reading other posts.
It is not treasonous by any stretch.
Radical? Only if what the colonists did to separate from the Crown, but absolutely not so when the new union separated from the Confederation. Was it treasonous or radical for West Virginia to secede from Virginia? Was it treasonous or radical for New York, Rhode Island, and Virginia to specify within their ratification documents, they reserved ti right to withdraw? That in turn made it viable for all states to do so. Why was a Constitutional Amendment proposed just prior to the War of Northern Aggression making secession illegal, if it wasn't already illegal to do so?
Why wasn't Jefferson Davis ( already treated shabbily for two years by the union ) and Robert E Lee, along with other officers of the Confederacy hung as traitors if it was treasonous.
Who formed the union? The original Continental Congress, as Lincoln supposed and stated, or the states meeting in convention that ratified the Constitution, thereby creating the union?
Fair enough. Think what you like. I appreciate the warning as far as others who really enjoy the political discourse version of fart jokes. Looks like this isn't the place for me. Sorry to waste your time.
Have whatever fun you like at my expense, because I know that's how this works. Enjoy.
Quote from: rkluess on February 07, 2013, 12:37:00 PM
Fair enough. Think what you like. I appreciate the warning as far as others who really enjoy the political discourse version of fart jokes. Looks like this isn't the place for me. Sorry to waste your time.
Have whatever fun you like at my expense, because I know that's how this works. Enjoy.
Shocker.
Quote from: rkluess on February 07, 2013, 12:30:28 PM
Gotcha. So this is one of those forums where posters prefer the zingers and one-liners as opposed to actual open discussion? It's always fun when the admins and mods are the first to do that.
Dance all you like. You were plugging your e-book.
Quote from: rkluess on February 07, 2013, 12:15:09 PM
I get that you are trying to protect your site from advertisers. Again, context should matter towards that, and if you can't see from the context that I wasn't walking in saying, "Hey, buy this, buy this, buy this," then this site is going to have some severe problems.
If you don't believe I'm a spammer, then I'm not sure what the original issue was? Again, if the link was against TOS (which I don't believe it was), disable the link rather than censor it. Had I not used the information as a link would it have been edited out? Because if the answer is no, then I really don't understand the issue? This strikes me as admins flexing their muscle against a new poster, which is a great way to make someone want to stay.
RKL, may I suggest in a friendly manner, having known these old boys, sometimes to my detriment and sometime to theirs, but any fora is a product of the owners. It is their house, we but rent ( the rates are cheap ) and do so by their rules. When the rules change, you have a choice; conform or leave. I speak from experience as I have done exactly that in the past.
Discuss your point and forget about any slight you may have felt, or simply pack your kit, grab your old felt hat, find a moon to look over your shoulder, and truck on down the highway. ( I am fully aware the previous may and probably will be lost on all. :lol: )
Quote from: Shooterman on February 07, 2013, 12:45:24 PM
RKL, may I suggest in a friendly manner, having known these old boys, sometimes to my detriment and sometime to theirs, but any fora is a product of the owners. It is their house, we but rent ( the rates are cheap ) and do so by their rules. When the rules change, you have a choice; conform or leave. I speak from experience as I have done exactly that in the past.
Discuss your point and forget about any slight you may have felt, or simply pack your kit, grab your old felt hat, find a moon to look over your shoulder, and truck on down the highway. ( I am fully aware the previous may and probably will be lost on all. :lol: )
You haven't been getting the invoices?????????
Quote from: rkluess on February 07, 2013, 12:30:28 PM
Gotcha. So this is one of those forums where posters prefer the zingers and one-liners as opposed to actual open discussion? It's always fun when the admins and mods are the first to do that.
Quote"I'm starting this site for a little bit of shameless self-promotion. With any luck, this will land me a great job, sell some of my works, or simply entertain a few people."
"I have a strong Customer Service background."
Oh cut the crap, you aren't fooling anyone, you knew quite well it's poor etiquette to enter any business and try and sell your wares, as evidenced by your very own words!
Indignation? I think someones pants are afire.
:popcorn:
By the by, was that why the link I put in for the facebook imitation shut down? I had no clue. . .
And if you, OP wanted an answer to your question you'd just accept it as it is, maybe just post the name of the book? But I feel that particular ship sailed away. . .
Quote from: pisskop on February 07, 2013, 12:58:35 PM
:popcorn:
By the by, was that why the link I put in for the facebook imitation shut down? I had no clue. . .
And if you, OP wanted an answer to your question you'd just accept it as it is, maybe just post the name of the book? But I feel that particular ship sailed away. . .
For what?
Quote from: taxed on February 07, 2013, 12:47:04 PM
You haven't been getting the invoices?????????
That's what those were? I used them for toilet paper. A little scratchy, mind you, but waste not, want not.
Quote from: pisskop on February 07, 2013, 12:58:35 PM
:popcorn:
By the by, was that why the link I put in for the facebook imitation shut down? I had no clue. . .
And if you, OP wanted an answer to your question you'd just accept it as it is, maybe just post the name of the book? But I feel that particular ship sailed away. . .
I don't think anyone touched it, I could be wrong, but I hate any and all those social media progs, but that's just me, that's why I didn't respond.
http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/political-discussion-and-debate/tea-party-community/msg111692/#msg111692 (http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/political-discussion-and-debate/tea-party-community/msg111692/#msg111692)
T'was editted to remove a the link.
Quote from: pisskop on February 07, 2013, 01:07:17 PM
http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/political-discussion-and-debate/tea-party-community/msg111692/#msg111692 (http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/political-discussion-and-debate/tea-party-community/msg111692/#msg111692)
T'was editted to remove a the link.
Ah, yes indeed. Not much gets by Walks....
Quote from: pisskop on February 07, 2013, 01:07:17 PM
http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/political-discussion-and-debate/tea-party-community/msg111692/#msg111692 (http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/political-discussion-and-debate/tea-party-community/msg111692/#msg111692)
T'was editted to remove a the link.
Ah, Walks is under orders to remove some links, though it was fine, he is just doing as he was instructed.
Go ahead and post it again, and tell him you have permission.
Thanks but I just want to be clear on forum rules. They vary significantly. . .
Quote from: pisskop on February 07, 2013, 01:16:44 PM
Thanks but I just want to be clear on forum rules. They vary significantly. . .
No worries. We have to moderate them unfortunately, otherwise, this place would turn into a spam house.
Quote from: pisskop on February 07, 2013, 01:16:44 PM
Thanks but I just want to be clear on forum rules. They vary significantly. . .
Not really, it has more to do with common etiquette. We are probably the most lenient of forums, we never edit posts or even delete them.'
The only time links get removed is when it appears to be a plug for another site, which is exactly what you did, but it was a reasonable plug, but the rules were applied evenly in this case.
We are a for profit site, not that I am taking advertising at the moment, but we are still a business none the less, and plugging without paying is unacceptable.
Hope that explains it better.
Quote from: Solar on February 07, 2013, 01:05:49 PM
I don't think anyone touched it, I could be wrong, but I hate any and all those social media progs, but that's just me, that's why I didn't respond.
I did, something back when he first came on.
Quote from: walkstall on February 07, 2013, 01:33:21 PM
I did, something back when he first came on.
I know and you were being consistent as expected, and we appreciate it. :cool:
He can reinstate the link if he likes, or even start a new thread on the topic, I'm always open to promoting all things Conservative.
Quote from: Solar on February 07, 2013, 01:40:55 PM
I know and you were being consistent as expected, and we appreciate it. :cool:
He can reinstate the link if he likes, or even start a new thread on the topic, I'm always open to promoting all things Conservative.
Quote from: Solar on February 07, 2013, 12:51:01 PM
Oh cut the crap, you aren't fooling anyone, you knew quite well it's poor etiquette to enter any business and try and sell your wares, as evidenced by your very own words!
Indignation? I think someones pants are afire.
hahahah busted!!!!
Quote from: taxed on February 07, 2013, 04:12:24 PM
hahahah busted!!!!
I even gave him an opening to discuss the topic by posting his question, but he preferred feigned victim hood to an actual debate.
Typical lawyer. :laugh:
To What End is Secession?
QuoteWhen in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
Seems rather self-explanatory to me.
its a wcs option. Dividing our country will not make us stronger, will incite a war, and will not guarentee those with similar beliefs are on the same line.
Enlightening and/or out-manuvering democrats (tbh I would not mind compromises on some issues if relations were more affable and open) is superior in every way.
Quote from: pisskop on February 07, 2013, 08:03:52 PM
its a wcs option. Dividing our country will not make us stronger, will incite a war, and will not guarentee those with similar beliefs are on the same line.
Enlightening and/or out-manuvering democrats (tbh I would not mind compromises on some issues if relations were more affable and open) is superior in every way.
Our country is already divided. What sort of compromises are you willing to consider?
Honestly? If they tried to fix their spending habit Id be less opposed to taxing marijuana and legalizing it. If they would stop this special treatment of minorites (AA, I'm looking at you) I would see granting a rehabilitatory amount of unemployment benefits as a lube to help thosr dissparate back into the economy. Mostly I'd want to help them wean themselves off Lady Liberty's teet. It would take time.
Quote from: pisskop on February 07, 2013, 08:18:13 PM
Honestly? If they tried to fix their spending habit Id be less opposed to taxing marijuana and legalizing it. If they would stop this special treatment of minorites (AA, I'm looking at you) I would see granting a rehabilitatory amount of unemployment benefits as a lube to help thosr dissparate back into the economy. Mostly I'd want to help them wean themselves off Lady Liberty's teet. It would take time.
Huh?
Care to clarify that? It makes no sense to me as posted.
I think today's Liberalism is the result of our culture. If we were able to refresh our popular culture, revive it back from. . . this fixation on 'here, now, and pleasurable' than attitudes would change. With that so would the profligate lifestyles and the irresponsible descisions. No longer would our nation's problems be swept under the rug for future generations. This shift would allow some compromise between parties, because the left wouldn't be so left; or so infectous to the masses.
Our culture is what broke. It changed attitudes and shaped the youth lifestyles.
In the 1960s one of the American Socialist Party members made a statement. Actually several statements were made.
I can look it up later, but forgive me now for I am on a phone.
One loosely said that although Americans will never accept socialism they would happily adopt it piecemeal if it was branded liberalism or progressive.
Another lays out a plan to convert America by degrading its culture and ideals. Wanton sex, homosexual approval, and art that is ambiguous was recommended amoung other things.
My own research says that the replacement of the oral story with visual media (as well as the decreased parental involvement) has allowed socialism to seep through at an avcelerated rate.
I shall organize myself tomorrow, if you wish. . .
Quote from: pisskop on February 07, 2013, 08:50:29 PM
I think today's Liberalism is the result of our culture. If we were able to refresh our popular culture, revive it back from. . . this fixation on 'here, now, and pleasurable' than attitudes would change. With that so would the profligate lifestyles and the irresponsible descisions. No longer would our nation's problems be swept under the rug for future generations. This shift would allow some compromise between parties, because the left wouldn't be so left; or so infectous to the masses.
Our culture is what broke. It changed attitudes and shaped the youth lifestyles.
In the 1960s one of the American Socialist Party members made a statement. Actually several statements were made.
I can look it up later, but forgive me now for I am on a phone.
One loosely said that although Americans will never accept socialism they would happily adopt it piecemeal if it was branded liberalism or progressive.
Another lays out a plan to convert America by degrading its culture and ideals. Wanton sex, homosexual approval, and art that is ambiguous was recommended amoung other things.
My own research says that the replacement of the oral story with visual media (as well as the decreased parental involvement) has allowed socialism to seep through at an avcelerated rate.
I shall organize myself tomorrow, if you wish. . .
Allow me to express where I think we, as a nation, are now:
Quote"The America of today is a laboratory example if what can happen to democracies, what has eventually happened to all perfect democracies throughout history. A perfect democracy, a 'warm body' democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction. It depends solely on the wisdom and self-restraint of citizens... which is opposed by the folly and lack of self-restraint of other citizens. What is supposed to happen in a democracy is that each sovereign citizen will always vote in public interest for the safety and welfare of all. But what does happen is that he votes his own self-interest as he sees it... which for the majority translates as 'Bread and Circuses'.
Bread and Circuses is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure. Democracy often works beautifully at first. But once the state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in it's weakened condition the state succums to an invader - the barbarians enter Rome." ~ Robert Heinlein
"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under
the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist
program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without
knowing how it happened."
Attributed to Norman Thomas, though there is some question as to whether he actually said it.
Quote from: pisskop on February 07, 2013, 08:50:29 PM
I think today's Liberalism is the result of our culture. If we were able to refresh our popular culture, revive it back from. . . this fixation on 'here, now, and pleasurable' than attitudes would change. With that so would the profligate lifestyles and the irresponsible descisions. No longer would our nation's problems be swept under the rug for future generations. This shift would allow some compromise between parties, because the left wouldn't be so left; or so infectous to the masses.
Our culture is what broke. It changed attitudes and shaped the youth lifestyles.
In the 1960s one of the American Socialist Party members made a statement. Actually several statements were made.
I can look it up later, but forgive me now for I am on a phone.
One loosely said that although Americans will never accept socialism they would happily adopt it piecemeal if it was branded liberalism or progressive.
Another lays out a plan to convert America by degrading its culture and ideals. Wanton sex, homosexual approval, and art that is ambiguous was recommended amoung other things.
My own research says that the replacement of the oral story with visual media (as well as the decreased parental involvement) has allowed socialism to seep through at an avcelerated rate.
I shall organize myself tomorrow, if you wish. . .
Here ya go.
Quote from: rkluess on February 07, 2013, 11:25:05 AM
Full disclosure - I'm a new member, I'm interested in conservative politics, and although I plan to read a lot of what is on here, I may not post very much (time concerns - something I ran into trouble with when I was a regular on a different forum several years back).
That said, I recently published an ebook on secession (entitled --URL REMOVED BY TAXED--, which is the last shameless plug on it I'll make) and have been interested in what other conservatives tend to think of secession as a means to address political problems. Clearly those who circulated and signed the petitions recognized that the petitions would fail - it could never be more than a publicity stunt to show disapproval with the presidential election. However, established movements have had substantial support for years in Texas, New Hampshire, Vermont, as well as other states and regions. Those individuals subscribing to that philosophy have a genuine interest in effecting their removal from the union.
My question - is secession treasonous, radical, or conservative? I'm curious what your thoughts are.
To your question; Secession only happens when it is necessary. And, youv can tell when its was become necessay when happens.
The goal of secession is to ensure that all associations are voluntary, rather than coercive. Hence, state secession implies that the Union is a vountary agreement. Other forms of secession, like community or individual secession, are based upon the same principle, but taken farther.