Quote from: Steve Zissou on September 02, 2011, 09:59:23 AM
I disagree. If this regulation into effect they will flood in to fill the void. The free market is a powerful tool, but it is exactly this instance that illustrates the need for civil governance. Perhaps the libs got this one right.

Well, look at the lightbulbs for an example of how you can't drive demand through regulations. The swirly bulbs do last longer (I use them for end table lamps) but they're not as bright, therefore, many people still use incandescents.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for finding replacements for styrofoam, just as somewhere down the line we will need a replacement for oil, but the driving factor should be the market.

Quote from: CubaLibre on September 02, 2011, 10:25:45 AM
Well, look at the lightbulbs for an example of how you can't drive demand through regulations. The swirly bulbs do last longer (I use them for end table lamps) but they're not as bright, therefore, many people still use incandescents.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for finding replacements for styrofoam, just as somewhere down the line we will need a replacement for oil, but the driving factor should be the market.

It's not a matter of driving demand in this case. There is a pre-existing demand for carry-out food trays. Many restaurants already use non-foam trays.

In the case of the lightbulbs, the new tech is not ready and as such has not made replacing incandescents a viable option for many. Personal preference and many years of experience with that type of light (and light quality is very important to humans) also plays a factor in the switch.

And I agree. The market should be the driving factor except in instances of impingement like this one. Lightbulbs do not qualify, despite the need for power savings. 

Quote from: Steve Zissou on September 02, 2011, 10:14:09 AM
Paper gets soggy and sinks to the bottom.

It also decomposes.  Rather quickly. 

Quote from: Steve Zissou on September 02, 2011, 10:23:07 AM
They are only coated with wax on the inside. I'm sure a replacement can be developed.

Personal convenience is the heart of our freedom to enjoy the commons. You aren't a fan of personal liberty? Businesses are at liberty to do as they please as long as they do not impinge upon my liberty to enjoy the commons.

We have laws against pollution in place. The reason for these new laws isn't to fight, and will not fight pollution. The reason for these new laws is stupidity.

Quote from: Harry on September 02, 2011, 10:54:44 AM

We have laws against pollution in place. The reason for these new laws isn't to fight, and will not fight pollution. The reason for these new laws is stupidity.

What is the stated reason? I'm pretty sure I saw pollution in there.

Quote from: CubaLibre on September 02, 2011, 10:25:45 AM
Well, look at the lightbulbs for an example of how you can't drive demand through regulations. The swirly bulbs do last longer (I use them for end table lamps) but they're not as bright, therefore, many people still use incandescents.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for finding replacements for styrofoam, just as somewhere down the line we will need a replacement for oil, but the driving factor should be the market.

The market alwas goes with cheapest.  Make the styrofoam more expensive or ban it altogether and the market will find an alternative. Otherwise it won't.  And the swirly bulbs ARE just as bright. They just take a few seconds to warm up.  We Americans are not accustomed to waiting.  We want it NOW.  Not in five seconds. 

Quote from: Steve Zissou on September 02, 2011, 10:55:39 AM
What is the stated reason? I'm pretty sure I saw pollution in there.

Boy oh boy, your open mind is refreshing!  I hope you don't get worn down too soon.  You're kind of in a minority, you know. 

Quote from: elmerfudd on September 02, 2011, 10:57:49 AM
Boy oh boy, your open mind is refreshing!  I hope you don't get worn down too soon.  You're kind of in minority, you know.

Freedom lovers and men of Liberty should never be in the minority.

Quote from: Steve Zissou on September 02, 2011, 09:50:44 AM
I hate government regulation as much as the next guy, probably more, but those foam containers are really annoying. I'm an amateur surfer and the stuff is everywhere on the beaches. People are free to do as they please as long as they do not impinge on my ability to enjoy the commons. Polluting does exactly that.

I have full confidence in the inventive spirit of the American people to come up with a fantastic substitute.

It's simple really, just enforce the laws already on the books regarding littering.
Ca was once the cleanest State in the Nation, and they did enforce the littering laws and it was always in the paper along with the offenders name.

Quote from: elmerfudd on September 02, 2011, 10:56:23 AM
The market alwas goes with cheapest.  Make the styrofoam more expensive or ban it altogether and the market will find an alternative. Otherwise it won't.  And the swirly bulbs ARE just as bright. They just take a few seconds to warm up.  We Americans are not accustomed to waiting.  We want it NOW.  Not in five seconds.

The market does not always go with the cheapest. Look at bottled water.

Quote from: Steve Zissou on September 02, 2011, 11:00:38 AM
The market does not always go with the cheapest. Look at bottled water.

The market goes with what sells and produces the most profit.  If those plastic bottles get to be a problem like styrofoam seems to have, watch what happens. 

I had to go back and look to make sure.  You described yourself as a paleo-libertarian.  Either I don't know what that is, or you don't sound much like one.  At least with regard to THIS government regulation. 

Quote from: Solar on September 02, 2011, 11:00:31 AM
It's simple really, just enforce the laws already on the books regarding littering.
Ca was once the cleanest State in the Nation, and they did enforce the littering laws and it was always in the paper along with the offenders name.

I don't see any real difference between a littering law and a law against styrofoam carry-out trays. It's more efficient to deal with the problem at the source.

In the end, California is not telling business owners that they cannot offer take-out food. It's not pushing owners into an optionless direction. In fact, paper carry-out cartons have distinct advantages that can be used in marketing the change.

Quote from: elmerfudd on September 02, 2011, 11:03:33 AM
The market goes with what sells and produces the most profit.  If those plastic bottles get to be a problem like styrofoam seems to have, watch what happens. 

I had to go back and look to make sure.  You described yourself as a paleo-libertarian.  Either I don't know what that is, or you don't sound much like one.  At least with regard to THIS government regulation.

I believe that issues like this are the ONLY reason for civil government's existence.

Quote from: Solar on September 02, 2011, 11:00:31 AM
It's simple really, just enforce the laws already on the books regarding littering.
Ca was once the cleanest State in the Nation, and they did enforce the littering laws and it was always in the paper along with the offenders name.

Would that everything would be as simple as some believe it to be.  No offense, but that's what black and white (no gray), extremist thinking produces.  Everything seems simple.  But the devil is always in the details, isn't it?

Quote from: Steve Zissou on September 02, 2011, 09:59:23 AM
I disagree. If this regulation into effect they will flood in to fill the void. The free market is a powerful tool, but it is exactly this instance that illustrates the need for civil governance. Perhaps the libs got this one right.

Look at the reality of this, this is just their first step, they won't stop at foam containers, next foam cups, foam packing, foam in your surf board.
Get ready to pay another 2%+ for everything you buy when they get to where they want to be on this.

Remember when paper bags were destroying old growth forests?
So claimed the libs, then they pressed stores to go to plastic, then so called Big Oil became the villain, so they decided paper bags could be recycled (as well as plastic bags, but they hate being reminded of that little error) so back to paper we went.

Point is, let the mkt decide our behavior, not some stupid chump sitting behind a desk.