Still can't call it the willful premeditated murder of 55 million unborn Americans? Still can't see the insanity of paying for things with other people's money, like welfare for immigrants AFTER we killed all that indigenous labor?

And you wonder why conservatives want you to examine the alternatives?

Quote from: quiller on November 28, 2013, 07:45:57 AM
Still can't call it the willful premeditated murder of 55 million unborn Americans? Still can't see the insanity of paying for things with other people's money, like welfare for immigrants AFTER we killed all that indigenous labor?

And you wonder why conservatives want you to examine the alternatives?

There you go again, ignoring counterarguments in favor of just restating your contention like an automated voice messaging system.  You didn't even attempt to address any of my points.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 28, 2013, 07:26:17 AMWhy do conservatives think they are entitled to impose their faith on others?

This is a wild assumption.  Certainly, conservatives (Christians?) do not impose their faith on others; never in America have they done so.  But I'm curious as to how they might feel entitled to impose their faith.  Force is contrary to the Biblical precept of merely bearing witness.

Conversely, though, as quiller implies, the welfare mentality is one that feels entitled to the use of force.

If I may impose my faith on you, the welfare state, operating under the pretext of charity, is one reason Christians tend to be conservative.  Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence (Mt. 23:25).

That welfare program participants believe that the use of government as an instrument of plunder is actually just, is indicative of their intelligence and absolutely counter to the Christian culture.  How easily they are given to promises of fairness, to the bribes of tyranny.

Whoever is greedy for unjust gain troubles his own household, but he who hates bribes will live (Pr. 15:27).

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 28, 2013, 07:29:38 AM
Did you know that red states receive more federal aid?

What is the point? It just proves not all people can be bought by federal dollars. I realize this is a difficult concept for lib/dems.

Quote from: 9 on November 28, 2013, 08:55:46 AM
This is a wild assumption.  Certainly, conservatives (Christians?) do not impose their faith on others; never in America have they done so.  But I'm curious as to how they might feel entitled to impose their faith.

Gay marriage.  Pornography.  "family values".

QuoteForce is contrary to the Biblical precept of merely bearing witness.

That depends on which testament you use, doesn't it?

Quote
Conversely, though, as quiller implies, the welfare mentality is one that feels entitled to the use of force.

Technically speaking all taxation involves the use of force.  That includes the taxes you presumably drive on every time you wish to commute long distances.  The difference here is that certain government regulations are rational and pragmatic, whereas others, such as the "war on drugs", are based on faith and kneejerk emotional inclinations.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 28, 2013, 08:59:24 AM
Gay marriage.  Pornography.  "family values".

Aren't liberals the ones imposing gay marriage?  And generally pornography?

And family values derive from the most fundamental seat of government - the family.  They derive from the natural law.  The imposition is the supplanting of the natural law with statutory law.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 28, 2013, 08:59:24 AMThat depends on which testament you use, doesn't it?

Please quote a passage from a version that commands Christians to force their beliefs.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 28, 2013, 08:59:24 AMTechnically speaking all taxation involves the use of force.

True

Thomas Sowell, Ayn Rand and Margaret Thatcher... three very intelligent people who can do simple math.

Quote from: 9 on November 28, 2013, 09:10:35 AM
Aren't liberals the ones imposing gay marriage?

Wording it as "imposing" the freedom to peacefully associate is the same level of rhetorical trickery as trying to get someone to prove that something isn't true.  Nobody is forcing you to enter a homosexual marriage, but certainly many are trying to force people not to do so.

Quote
And generally pornography?

Nobody's forcing you to watch porn.  But many want to force you to not watch porn.

Quote
And family values derive from the most fundamental seat of government - the family.  They derive from the natural law.  The imposition is the supplanting of the natural law with statutory law.

Justification from "natural law" is a naturalistic fallacy.

Quote
Please quote a passage from a version that commands Christians to force their beliefs.

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.  (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

             the commanding principle behind the liberals wanting the money of those who have earned it is no more complex than this.....COVETOUSNESS.... as in "thou shalt not....COVET. " 

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 28, 2013, 10:56:38 AM
Wording it as "imposing" the freedom to peacefully associate is the same level of rhetorical trickery as trying to get someone to prove that something isn't true.  Nobody is forcing you to enter a homosexual marriage, but certainly many are trying to force people not to do so.

Nobody's forcing you to watch porn.  But many want to force you to not watch porn.

Justification from "natural law" is a naturalistic fallacy.

Not in Mosaic law, nor in the natural law, nor in the English common law, all of which are foundational to the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God, pillars of American republicanism,  are perversions of the marriage institution suffered.  To legalize gay marriage is to impose on society.  Not on me - on society.  And for the sake of personal wants, no less.  Utterly selfish and counter to the public good.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 28, 2013, 10:56:38 AMThey entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.  (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

I mistook testament for version.  My apologies.  At any rate, this is not a Christian covenant.  It's an Israelite covenant.  Christians do not enter into these kinds of oaths.  Hebrews, Chapter 10, for example, might be a good place to see why.  American Christians have never imposed their beliefs on other Americans.  Not only is that contrary to Christianity; it's contrary to American Constitutionalism.

Quote from: 9 on November 28, 2013, 11:44:47 AM
To legalize gay marriage is to impose on society.

Nobody's forcing you to enter a homosexual marriage.  We're just telling you that if gay people want to marry each other it's really none of your business or authority to prevent them from doing so.  How do they hurt you, or anyone else?

Quote
I mistook testament for version.  My apologies.  At any rate, this is not a Christian covenant.  It's an Israelite covenant.  Christians do not enter into these kinds of oaths.  Hebrews, Chapter 10, for example, might be a good place to see why. 

There are plenty of similarly twisted, I daresay evil, verses in the Old Testament where genocide, rape, slavery, murder and torture are not only condoned but ordained by divine mandate.  Unfortunately for you, Christians still consider the Old Testament to be part of God's word.

Quote
American Christians have never imposed their beliefs on other Americans.

I'm sorry but this is pure bullshit.  You're trying to do so right now with gay marriage; because you personally find homosexual unions to be perverse, you want to tell other people what they cannot do.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 28, 2013, 11:55:54 AM
Nobody's forcing you to enter a homosexual marriage.  We're just telling you that if gay people want to marry each other it's really none of your business or authority to prevent them from doing so.  How do they hurt you, or anyone else?

There are plenty of similarly twisted, I daresay evil, verses in the Old Testament where genocide, rape, slavery, murder and torture are not only condoned but ordained by divine mandate.  Unfortunately for you, Christians still consider the Old Testament to be part of God's word.

I'm sorry but this is pure bullshit.  You're trying to do so right now with gay marriage; because you personally find homosexual unions to be perverse, you want to tell other people what they cannot do.

Derail this to a Religious debate, and I'll derail you!

Quote from: Solar on November 28, 2013, 12:11:03 PM
Derail this to a Religious debate, and I'll derail you!

I've already addressed your OP and you simply ignored me: tell me how Marxism has any relevance to the modern political debate.  Show me Obama's policies that are explicitly Marxist, or you're attacking just as big of a strawman as I am.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 28, 2013, 11:55:54 AM
Nobody's forcing you to enter a homosexual marriage.  We're just telling you that if gay people want to marry each other it's really none of your business or authority to prevent them from doing so.  How do they hurt you, or anyone else?

It changes the law, i.e., the social compact.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 28, 2013, 11:55:54 AMThere are plenty of similarly twisted, I daresay evil, verses in the Old Testament where genocide, rape, slavery, murder and torture are not only condoned but ordained by divine mandate.  Unfortunately for you, Christians still consider the Old Testament to be part of God's word.

Indeed, the OT is part of God's word.  The NT, however, changes the covenant.  Again,  Christians do not enter into these kinds of oaths.  American Christians have never imposed their beliefs on other Americans.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on November 28, 2013, 11:55:54 AMI'm sorry but this is pure bullshit.  You're trying to do so right now with gay marriage; because you personally find homosexual unions to be perverse, you want to tell other people what they cannot do.

I'm telling you gay marriage is a perversion of natural law, and therefore of American Constitutionalism.  Just as the welfare state is.  Petitioning government to plunder some people on your behalf is absolutely un-American.  The only reason gay marriage and welfare are ever legalized is because ignorance does not look past its own selfishness.  One of the pillars of republicanism is the public good.  Not so with liberalism.  Personal good is one of their pillars.