Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on August 10, 2014, 11:03:51 PM
Debating 101: the burden of proof rests on whoever makes the assertion.  Prove up or shut up.

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/08/04/Rape-Death-and-Police-Pursuits-Continue-as-Illegal-Immigrants-Flood-Falfurrias
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/07/31/illegal-alien-beats-chinese-usc-student-to-death-with-bat/
http://wn.com/three_illegal_aliens_charged_with_murder
http://mountainrepublic.net/2011/01/31/illegals-wanted-for-teens-murder-surrender/
There are a number of other links, simply enter illegal alien crimes.

Quote from: mdgiles on August 11, 2014, 01:16:08 PM
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/08/04/Rape-Death-and-Police-Pursuits-Continue-as-Illegal-Immigrants-Flood-Falfurrias
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/07/31/illegal-alien-beats-chinese-usc-student-to-death-with-bat/
http://wn.com/three_illegal_aliens_charged_with_murder
http://mountainrepublic.net/2011/01/31/illegals-wanted-for-teens-murder-surrender/
There are a number of other links, simply enter illegal alien crimes.

Yet this poster will still defend this lawless administration.  Funny how libs want to play host to all the poor defenseless, innocent border babies and care nothing about the masses of babies being aborted right here in America. 

Quote from: mdgiles on August 11, 2014, 01:16:08 PM
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/08/04/Rape-Death-and-Police-Pursuits-Continue-as-Illegal-Immigrants-Flood-Falfurrias
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/07/31/illegal-alien-beats-chinese-usc-student-to-death-with-bat/
http://wn.com/three_illegal_aliens_charged_with_murder
http://mountainrepublic.net/2011/01/31/illegals-wanted-for-teens-murder-surrender/
There are a number of other links, simply enter illegal alien crimes.

Oh, wow, so you've proved that illegal immigrants are responsible for...4 crimes?  And this proves the original contention: "More Americans have died because of Illegals than the Iraq war"...how?  Your grasp of elementary arithmetic is truly embarrassing.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on August 11, 2014, 04:05:40 PM
Oh, wow, so you've proved that illegal immigrants are responsible for...4 crimes?  And this proves the original contention: "More Americans have died because of Illegals than the Iraq war"...how?  Your grasp of elementary arithmetic is truly embarrassing.

Illegals are responsible for up to 30% of the violent crime in America, as evidenced by a 30 to 35% Prison population in most States.

It really is impossible to accurately acess illegal immigrant crime because like most of our past history IMMIGRANT ON IMMIGRANT CRIME IS THE MOST PREVELANT, and likely for a number of reasons UNREPORTED.

In short illegals victimize their own more often than "regular" Americans. Just like Black on Black crime.

I would say that the most glaring example of illegal crime (on other illegals) is in teh Arizona cities of Phoenix and Tucson. Home invasion robberies KIDNAPPING FOR RANSON and extortion...the crime rate went up 130% since 2000.

Thats the thing you leftists don't understand, Illegals are more likely to suffer from other illegals, these people are a danger to themselves and their own ethnic group far more than' Americans'...this goes double for disease due to the close and constant interaction .

Quote from: Billy's bayonet on August 11, 2014, 05:51:31 PM
Illegals are responsible for up to 30% of the violent crime in America,

And smoking is responsible for up to 20% of all fatalities.  You don't refute my point in the slightest.

BTW, not only would I expect a citation for this, I would also like to know how much more likely illegal immigrants are to commit violent crimes when you control for socio-economic stats. 

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as evidenced by a 30 to 35% Prison population in most States.

...wait, oh, what the fuck?  That is how you drew your conclusion?  You assumed that comprising 30% of the prison population means that they must comprise 30% of the violent crime in the States?  Are you bullshitting, or just realllyyy incompetent?

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It really is impossible to accurately acess illegal immigrant crime because like most of our past history IMMIGRANT ON IMMIGRANT CRIME IS THE MOST PREVELANT, and likely for a number of reasons UNREPORTED.

Well, yeah.  Sort of like how the original pilgrims weren't exactly obeying the laws of the Natives whose land they were using.  Isn't the fact that the original Americans were illegal immigrants a little inconvenient for you?

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In short illegals victimize their own more often than "regular" Americans. Just like Black on Black crime.

So you care little enough about these immigrant children to let them starve or die back in their country, and now you suddenly care about their being victims of crime?

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I would say that the most glaring example of illegal crime (on other illegals) is in teh Arizona cities of Phoenix and Tucson. Home invasion robberies KIDNAPPING FOR RANSON and extortion...the crime rate went up 130% since 2000.

Verify that this 130% increase in crime is a result of illegal immigration.  After your pathetic "Prison population = all violent felons" gem, I'm not taking anything on your word.

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Thats the thing you leftists don't understand, Illegals are more likely to suffer from other illegals, these people are a danger to themselves and their own ethnic group far more than' Americans'...this goes double for disease due to the close and constant interaction .

Give me the data that these illegal immigrants are more likely to be hurt in the United States than they would be back home, because I call bullshit on that, quite frankly.

Si Fi Fan:

Just curious, Do you believe in OPEN borders for the USA? Do you believe ANYONE who wants to come here has a RIGHT to come, without restriction?

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on August 11, 2014, 06:10:13 PM
And smoking is responsible for up to 20% of all fatalities.  You don't refute my point in the slightest.

No I don;t, how much do drugs (including Marijuana) contribute to the fatality, disease, crime rate? do you get high?


...wait, oh, what the fuck?  That is how you drew your conclusion?  You assumed that comprising 30% of the prison population means that they must comprise 30% of the violent crime in the States?  Are you bullshitting, or just realllyyy incompetent?

Incompetent? Really  How do you explain a 30% illegal prison population? Oh and we're talking about REPORTED CRIMES, since most illegals commit crime on other illegals most goes unreported.

Well, yeah.  Sort of like how the original pilgrims weren't exactly obeying the laws of the Natives whose land they were using.  Isn't the fact that the original Americans were illegal immigrants a little inconvenient for you?

So you care little enough about these immigrant children to let them starve or die back in their country, and now you suddenly care about their being victims of crime?

Victims of crimes etc on US SOIL thats the difference.....What about all the children starving in Africa, Asia and china...why not invite the entire world in? Impractical and unattainable, you cannot save the world, why not concentrate on the problems we have NOW before overloading the system?

Verify that this 130% increase in crime is a result of illegal immigration.  After your pathetic "Prison population = all violent felons" gem, I'm not taking anything on your word.
I don't give a rats swollen ass what you take, if you really wanted to you could google up the stats and facts yourself but it probably would fit you bandwagon so you just run your mouth....I have 25 years as an investigator in major crimes and 15 years in private industry and have worked in 30 foreign countries.

Give me the data that these illegal immigrants are more likely to be hurt in the United States than they would be back home, because I call bullshit on that, quite frankly.

No you get the data on your own, you might learn something...Look up the FBI crime stats
or the IACP (international association of chiefs of police) stats on Black on black and immigrant on immigrant crime....or actually listen to Arizona lawmen and border patrol agents

Quote from: Billy's bayonet on August 11, 2014, 06:32:39 PM
No I don;t, how much do drugs (including Marijuana) contribute to the fatality, disease, crime rate? do you get high?

What does this have to do with my smoking argument?

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Incompetent? Really  How do you explain a 30% illegal prison population? Oh and we're talking about REPORTED CRIMES, since most illegals commit crime on other illegals most goes unreported.

Sweetie, not all prisoners are violent felons, so you can't assume that all the illegal immigrants in there are there for violent felonies.  Duh.

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Victims of crimes etc on US SOIL thats the difference.....

Oh, so their lives are more important now that they're on US soil?  Funny that you say that, and then eagerly deport them back to violent, unstable countries.

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What about all the children starving in Africa, Asia and china...why not invite the entire world in? Impractical and unattainable, you cannot save the world, why not concentrate on the problems we have NOW before overloading the system?

Demonstrate that it is "impractical and unattainable" to accommodate the refugee children we currently have.

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I don't give a rats swollen ass what you take, if you really wanted to you could google up the stats and facts yourself but it probably would fit you bandwagon so you just run your mouth....I have 25 years as an investigator in major crimes and 15 years in private industry and have worked in 30 foreign countries.

In other words, you were bluffing and had no evidence, so you're just going to appeal to your own authority.    I love the part where you think it's my job to google the stats that you brought up.

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No you get the data on your own, you might learn something...Look up the FBI crime stats

Debating 101: burden of proof lies on the person making the claim.

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or the IACP (international association of chiefs of police) stats on Black on black and immigrant on immigrant crime....or actually listen to Arizona lawmen and border patrol agents

You didn't even understand the sentence properly: I was asking for how much danger these immigrants were in compared to if they had stayed in their home countries.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on August 11, 2014, 09:25:10 PM


In other words, you were bluffing and had no evidence, so you're just going to appeal to your own authority.    I love the part where you think it's my job to google the stats that you brought up.

Debating 101: burden of proof lies on the person making the claim.

You didn't even understand the sentence properly: I was asking for how much danger these immigrants were in compared to if they had stayed in their home countries.

A: You're in no position to talk about authority, when the position you champion is one which ignores the authority of the American people and their government to establish, protect, and defend their own national borders.

B: How much danger they are in if they remain at home is irrelevant. The United States, nor it's government exist to provide safety and security for them or their nation.

Which is the root of the fallacy of the liberal argument. It is one which presupposes we (the United  States Government) are the worlds babysitter/nanny. And yet nowhere was it ever even suggested, much less ever enumerated by our founding law, the Constitution, that the United States should have a government which does so...ut oh.

Quote from: daidalos on August 11, 2014, 09:32:40 PM
A: You're in no position to talk about authority

...wow, you people would all get run out of my middle school debate team.  Appeal to Authority is a formal logical fallacy, it has nothing to do with the legal authority of a democratic voting body. 

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B: How much danger they are in if they remain at home is irrelevant. The United States, nor it's government exist to provide safety and security for them or their nation.

You're more concerned with what the "duty" and jurisdiction of our government is than with what actions will create the greatest actual good.  You're playing semantics rather than looking for solutions that benefit actual people.

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Which is the root of the fallacy of the liberal argument. It is one which presupposes we (the United  States Government) are the worlds babysitter/nanny.

No.  But the immigrants who are already here are our problem, whether they have the papers or not.  The blanket solution to deport them all is nonsense by any moral system other than your dogmatic brand of legalism.

I'd swear Debbie Wassermann Schultz is posting here. The idiocy is amazing.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on August 11, 2014, 04:05:40 PM
Oh, wow, so you've proved that illegal immigrants are responsible for...4 crimes?  And this proves the original contention: "More Americans have died because of Illegals than the Iraq war"...how?  Your grasp of elementary arithmetic is truly embarrassing.

Actually there were quite a few more, but since no amount of evidence will convince you of how dangerous some of these illegals are; I saw no reason to put more than a few down. You are welcome to Google the links I gave you, they often contain links to other crimes by illegals. In any case you cant't seem to comprehend why crimes committed by illegals are worse; it's because they shouldn't even be here.

Quote from: Solar on August 12, 2014, 05:20:31 AM
I'd swear Debbie Wassermann Schultz is posting here. The idiocy is amazing.

Kneel to the power of the burn!

Quote from: mdgiles on August 12, 2014, 05:40:15 AM
Actually there were quite a few more, but since no amount of evidence will convince you of how dangerous some of these illegals are; I saw no reason to put more than a few down. You are welcome to Google the links I gave you, they often contain links to other crimes by illegals. In any case you cant't seem to comprehend why crimes committed by illegals are worse; it's because they shouldn't even be here.

Wow, what a shamelessly transparent way of backtracking.  So you admit that your set of four links proves absolutely nothing beyond that there have been at least 4 people killed/raped by illegal immigrants, and that you think anecdotes constitute legitimate evidence?  Do you seriously think those 4 links do anything to prove that illegals kill more people than the Iraqi war? 

BTW, these rhetorical techniques you're trying to use are older than even you.  One of them is refusing to provide evidence by assuming the other side won't accept them anyway, which is absurd, because all you need is some sort of well researched, peer reviewed estimation of the number of illegal immigrant-related violent crimes.  There have been numerous such estimations, it's just that none of them actually support the notion that they've killed more people than Iraq.

Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on August 11, 2014, 09:25:10 PM
What does this have to do with my smoking argument?

you are the one making an issue over how 'dangerous' smoking is, so do you engage in such practise, if not with cigarettes then with MJ?

Sweetie, not all prisoners are violent felons, so you can't assume that all the illegal immigrants in there are there for violent felonies.  Duh.

Not assuming anything, simple fact to get locked down in a PRISON you really got to do something bad or have a horrendous record (which impacts ones sentence). Besides you still can't get away from the fact 30% OR MORE of the Prison population in the USA are illegals.
Oh, so their lives are more important now that they're on US soil?  Funny that you say that, and then eagerly deport them back to violent, unstable countries.

Demonstrate that it is "impractical and unattainable" to accommodate the refugee children we currently have.

In one of your responses in these threads you said something about the debt being more of a destructive factor to the USA than "illegal immigrants", interesting that you don't realize that by assuming responsiblity for hoards of needy aliens creats even more debt. Or you do and typical leftists are a hypocrit as well.

In other words, you were bluffing and had no evidence, so you're just going to appeal to your own authority.    I love the part where you think it's my job to google the stats that you brought up.

I never bluff...I usually have the answer before I pose the question... but I see you don't wish to learn but only wish to belabor your tenous point.

Debating 101: burden of proof lies on the person making the claim.

Translation: (again) Don't make me look up facts I don't want to know.

You didn't even understand the sentence properly: I was asking for how much danger these immigrants were in compared to if they had stayed in their home countries.

Subjective..... besides its not our responsibility what goes on in their corrupt nations