OK, so a big part of conservative ideology is that government regulation generally = bad.
Most conservatives oppose government regulations on tobacco, seatbelts, and toxic chemicals emitted by industrial factories. These kill hundreds of thousands of people a year. Let the free market handle it, they say.
Conservatives support stricter laws and deportation of illegal immigrants, because they steal our jobs and commit crimes, apparently.
Statistically speaking, all varieties of industries you adamantly refuse to regulate kill orders of magnitude more people and cause far more damage to the population than illegal immigrants ever will. If you could wish away second hand smoking or illegal immigration, any sane person would pick the former.
So why the big fuss over illegal immigrants (and children for that matter)? After all, immigration laws are a form of government regulation, and I think deporting people at gunpoint requires a more intrusive government than one that sends a guy with a clipboard to examine your factory twice a month. Is this just a purely emotional, xenophobic thing, with no basis in utilitarian benefit?
Fuck, some of your politicians have voted to cut funding to cancer research. Tell me, what kills more people; cancer, or illegal immigrants? :rolleyes:
Please do not reply with, "they are breaking the law". The issue here is why you want that law in the first place, but not laws against practices infinitely more dangerous to our society. Also, notice my use of the word "most". I don't give a damn that you personally are OK with seatbelt laws, and I don't want to hear your indignant speech about how I'm generalizing.
Smoking is a personal choice. Defense of the borders is the #1 responsibility of government.
If you had a daughter, wife, sister raped and murdered by a foreign invader, you'd understand.
If you on day found yourself a paraplegic because of a drunk driver who happened to be in this country ILLEGALLY, you'd spend the rest of your days thinking how unnecessary your condition was.
Open borders folks are completely nuts (seems to only apply to America).
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.fotki.com%2F1_p%2Crsttqkwsgrtdwwsxbqfqsbrwqdbw%2Cvi%2Fbsdffqgqsxsqdqqksbrxbsdqbskwr%2F1%2F1595431%2F10201489%2Fgetagrip-vi.png&hash=e6b8c87302903e288c5877c52e25b323733b61c2)
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PM
OK, so a big part of conservative ideology is that government regulation generally = bad.
Conservatism isn't an ideology. It's a way of life. Government regulation isn't generally bad; over regulation is.
Quote
Most conservatives oppose government regulations on tobacco, seatbelts, and toxic chemicals emitted by industrial factories.
No, we do not oppose regulation on chemicals emitted by industrial factories. That is ridiculous. We are the ones who want a clean environment.
Quote
These kill hundreds of thousands of people a year. Let the free market handle it, they say.
The free market is a wonderful thing.
Quote
Conservatives support stricter laws and deportation of illegal immigrants, because they steal our jobs and commit crimes, apparently.
"Apparently"?
Quote
Statistically speaking, all varieties of industries you adamantly refuse to regulate kill orders of magnitude more people and cause far more damage to the population than illegal immigrants ever will. If you could wish away second hand smoking or illegal immigration, any sane person would pick the former.
False premise, we aren't anti-regulation. That is something you dreamed up, or your professor told you to think and parrot.
Quote
So why the big fuss over illegal immigrants (and children for that matter)? After all, immigration laws are a form of government regulation, and I think deporting people at gunpoint requires a more intrusive government than one that sends a guy with a clipboard to examine your factory twice a month. Is this just a purely emotional, xenophobic thing, with no basis in utilitarian benefit?
Not up to speed on the Constitution, are you professor? Read Article IV, section 4.
Quote
Fuck, some of your politicians have voted to cut funding to cancer research. Tell me, what kills more people; cancer, or illegal immigrants? :rolleyes:
Government, since it's responsible for both. It kills innovation, and let's criminals and third-world disease spill in.
Quote
Please do not reply with, "they are breaking the law". The issue here is why you want that law in the first place, but not laws against practices infinitely more dangerous to our society.
Your whole premise is flawed, nevertheless, protecting the borders is part of the Constitution.
Quote
Also, notice my use of the word "most". I don't give a damn that you personally are OK with seatbelt laws, and I don't want to hear your indignant speech about how I'm generalizing.
Let's start you on the basics. Maybe you can bring it to your professor and you can educate him. We aren't anti-regulation, and border security is in the Constitution. See how easy that is?
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PM
OK, so a big part of conservative ideology is that government regulation generally = bad.
Most conservatives oppose government regulations on tobacco, seatbelts, and toxic chemicals emitted by industrial factories. These kill hundreds of thousands of people a year. Let the free market handle it, they say.
Conservatives support stricter laws and deportation of illegal immigrants, because they steal our jobs and commit crimes, apparently.
Statistically speaking, all varieties of industries you adamantly refuse to regulate kill orders of magnitude more people and cause far more damage to the population than illegal immigrants ever will. If you could wish away second hand smoking or illegal immigration, any sane person would pick the former.
So why the big fuss over illegal immigrants (and children for that matter)? After all, immigration laws are a form of government regulation, and I think deporting people at gunpoint requires a more intrusive government than one that sends a guy with a clipboard to examine your factory twice a month. Is this just a purely emotional, xenophobic thing, with no basis in utilitarian benefit?
Fuck, some of your politicians have voted to cut funding to cancer research. Tell me, what kills more people; cancer, or illegal immigrants? :rolleyes:
Please do not reply with, "they are breaking the law". The issue here is why you want that law in the first place, but not laws against practices infinitely more dangerous to our society. Also, notice my use of the word "most". I don't give a damn that you personally are OK with seatbelt laws, and I don't want to hear your indignant speech about how I'm generalizing.
Traditional and principled Conservatism has never been an ideology
and transcends party politics. It was born in Periclean Athens and
represents an idea and an attitude as to how one must behave to
honor the ageless wisdom of the past. Suggest you pause and reflect,
rather than emitting regular brain farts. Then in no time you'll have a
coherent and arguable premise.
Quote from: Walter Josh on July 30, 2014, 08:43:07 PM
Traditional and principled Conservatism has never been an ideology
and transcends party politics. It was born in Periclean Athens and
represents an idea and an attitude as to how one must behave to
honor the ageless wisdom of the past. Suggest you pause and reflect,
rather than emitting regular brain farts. Then in no time you'll have a
coherent and arguable premise.
He actually can't help himself. He lives on a planet populated by himself and a bazillion straw men. Imagine H. G. Wells, paranoid and using methamphetamines.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PM
OK, so a big part of conservative ideology is that government regulation generally = bad.
Most conservatives oppose government regulations on tobacco, seatbelts, and toxic chemicals emitted by industrial factories.
Only two sentences and already you are into your strawman argument.
1) No Conservative opposes government regulation of toxic chemicals emitted by industrial factories.
2) Seat belts save lives, but is it the Government Job to make sure you wear one since the only one affected by its non-use would be yourself? If you believe it is the government's job to protect you from doing something stupid, say good bye to any kind of extreme sport or hobby! (Bungee jumping, skydiving, auto racing, and don't even get me started on skateboards, skiing or trampolines)
QuoteThese kill hundreds of thousands of people a year. Let the free market handle it, they say.
Cigarettes. Instead of taxing tobacco products with a "sin tax" why not just outlaw all tobacco products?
Two reasons: 1 Tax revenue (both parties profit from that), and 2 political lobbying by the tobacco industry. While conventional wisdom says that most money goes to Republicans on this matter, a little know fact is that the tobacco lobby gets more bang for its buck by spreading the wealth (to coin a phrase) on the Democrat side.
According to the American Journal of Preventive Medicine article 27 Dec 2004, money provided to Democrat politicians by the tobacco lobby, was twice as effective in getting that member to vote in favor of pro tobacco legislation than it would be for a Republican.
Where there's smoke there's money: tobacco industry campaign contributions and U.S. Congressional votinghttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15556735 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15556735)
QuoteConservatives support stricter laws and deportation of illegal immigrants, because they steal our jobs and commit crimes, apparently.
Are you claiming they don't? What statistics/studies do you have to support your assertion?
QuoteStatistically speaking, all varieties of industries you adamantly refuse to regulate kill orders of magnitude more people and cause far more damage to the population than illegal immigrants ever will. If you could wish away second hand smoking or illegal immigration, any sane person would pick the former.
I think you'd find yourself hard pressed to produce a death certificate that lists the cause of death "Second Hand Smoke". There is a reason for this. If it takes a 1st hand smoker 40 or 50 years to die from smoking how long will it take someone, who inhales far less smoke to die from "Second Hand Smoke"?
As for the rest of your sweeping generalization, you will not find a Conservative, especially not on this forum who is opposed to
rational and sane regulation of dangerous environmental toxins that are used by or produced by industry.
This may come as a shock to you, but Conservatives have to breath the same air, and drink the same water you and your precious protected classes do.
QuoteSo why the big fuss over illegal immigrants (and children for that matter)? After all, immigration laws are a form of government regulation, and I think deporting people at gunpoint requires a more intrusive government than one that sends a guy with a clipboard to examine your factory twice a month. Is this just a purely emotional, xenophobic thing, with no basis in utilitarian benefit?
There is only one president I know who deported children at the point of a gun...
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eonline.com%2Feol_images%2FEntire_Site%2F20131111%2Frs_560x415-131211095433-1024.elian-gonzalez-child-cuba.jpg&hash=3420478e81367aa336fd316dc1a6c70baf89fc13)
Perhaps you've heard of him. His wife used to be Secretary of State and she might be running for president herself in 2016.
QuoteFuck, some of your politicians have voted to cut funding to cancer research. Tell me, what kills more people; cancer, or illegal immigrants?
You are going to have to provide documentation for that allegation.
QuotePlease do not reply with, "they are breaking the law".
Why not? They are. AND "most" will continue to break laws once they get here!
QuoteThe issue here is why you want that law in the first place, but not laws against practices infinitely more dangerous to our society. Also, notice my use of the word "most". I don't give a damn that you personally are OK with seatbelt laws, and I don't want to hear your indignant speech about how I'm generalizing.
Okay, why do you lock your doors at night? Why do you lock your car when you leave it in a parking lot? "Most" people who walk by your house or your car are not going to steal anything from it or try to harm you!
Why don't you let just anyone into your home? Are you xenophobic or just racist?
-Darth
I always do a facepalm whenever I see what amounts to because conservatives are against new regulations they must be for zero regulations. No. Personally I'd like to see the regulations we have enforced. Making new regulations usually only makes more paperwork, and generally does not help enforce laws which are already being broken.
As for illegal immigration, I'd like to see democrats and liberals actually enforce the laws we have in place? Is that so difficult? I know many people who have come here *gasp* legally! These are people from all over, from Africa, to Europe to Asia to South America. They all did it legally.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PM
OK, so a big part of conservative ideology is that government regulation generally = bad.
Most conservatives oppose government regulations on tobacco, seatbelts, and toxic chemicals emitted by industrial factories. These kill hundreds of thousands of people a year. Let the free market handle it, they say.
Conservatives support stricter laws and deportation of illegal immigrants, because they steal our jobs and commit crimes, apparently.
Statistically speaking, all varieties of industries you adamantly refuse to regulate kill orders of magnitude more people and cause far more damage to the population than illegal immigrants ever will. If you could wish away second hand smoking or illegal immigration, any sane person would pick the former.
So why the big fuss over illegal immigrants (and children for that matter)? After all, immigration laws are a form of government regulation, and I think deporting people at gunpoint requires a more intrusive government than one that sends a guy with a clipboard to examine your factory twice a month. Is this just a purely emotional, xenophobic thing, with no basis in utilitarian benefit?
Fuck, some of your politicians have voted to cut funding to cancer research. Tell me, what kills more people; cancer, or illegal immigrants? :rolleyes:
Please do not reply with, "they are breaking the law". The issue here is why you want that law in the first place, but not laws against practices infinitely more dangerous to our society. Also, notice my use of the word "most". I don't give a damn that you personally are OK with seatbelt laws, and I don't want to hear your indignant speech about how I'm generalizing.
Well you got that completely wrong so why should I read further?
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PM
OK, so a big part of conservative ideology is that government regulation generally = bad.
Conservatives support stricter laws and deportation of illegal immigrants, because they steal our jobs and commit crimes, apparently.
Statistically speaking, all varieties of industries you adamantly refuse to regulate kill orders of magnitude more people and cause far more damage to the population than illegal immigrants ever will. If you could wish away second hand smoking or illegal immigration, any sane person would pick the former
Boy do you gots it wrong.
First off, conservatives oppose JOB KILLING REGULATIONS, BUSIENSS and FREE MARKET CAPITALISM INHIBITORS AN those that nit pick MALA EN PROHIBITUM 'Crimes', I don't know where you get your stats from (please don't quote stats) as a former Stat man myself who developed the fine art of the body count in Vietnam I know what kind of smoke and mirrors the whole business is.
True conservatives beleive in strict enforcement of MALA EN SE crimes and harsh punishment for those who break the law. LAW and ORDER...Security etc. Liberals, leftists coddle those felons and come up with all sorts of mitigation especially when Minorities such as some illegals who are overhwhelmingly involved.
Now what 'sane' person would choose a hoard of penniless, needy illegals, possibly diseased, likely to be in thrall to vicious drug cartels over "second hand smoke".....I can walk away from some goof smoking a cigarette, I can;t walk away from a bunch of south of the border Vato's who are under the protection of some idiot bastard in the White house.
Now pull your head out of your ass and do some real research on the impact of crime, disease and illegal immigration on AMERICAN lives and society.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PM
OK, so a big part of conservative ideology is that government regulation generally = bad.
No, that's not true as a blanket statement,
and you know it, but the statement carries enough veracity that I'll let it slide for now.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PMMost conservatives oppose government regulations on tobacco, seatbelts, and toxic chemicals emitted by industrial factories. These kill hundreds of thousands of people a year. Let the free market handle it, they say.
These are all verifiable lies. Not surprising. Interesting that you would claim that seatbelts, or government regulations regarding seatbelts, or even opposition to seatbelts or government regulations on seatbelts "kill hundreds of thousands of people a year." I hadn't heard that one before. Provide sources or we'll just toss these into the massive SFF Bullshit Bucket.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PMConservatives support stricter laws and deportation of illegal immigrants, because they steal our jobs and commit crimes, apparently.
Conservatives support the federal government actually doing the very few specific things it's suited and authorized to do, and one of those things is securing the nation's borders. Any nation that does not or cannot secure its borders ceases to be a nation.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PMStatistically speaking, all varieties of industries you adamantly refuse to regulate kill orders of magnitude more people and cause far more damage to the population than illegal immigrants ever will. If you could wish away second hand smoking or illegal immigration, any sane person would pick the former.
I'm sure you spend the first half-hour of your day on your knees, wishing away second-hand smoke and illegal immigration. And then you spend a half-hour telling yourself that the two are somehow related, I guess because evil conservatives have spoken about both matters at some point. You can do better than this lame shit, SFF.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PMSo why the big fuss over illegal immigrants (and children for that matter)? After all, immigration laws are a form of government regulation, and I think deporting people at gunpoint requires a more intrusive government than one that sends a guy with a clipboard to examine your factory twice a month. Is this just a purely emotional, xenophobic thing, with no basis in utilitarian benefit?
First of all, EVERYTHING government does happens at the point of a gun. The guy with a clipboard who examines your factory twice a month is a quick phone call away from introducing you to a man with a gun.
That's what government is. And as you well know, the issue at hand with the children flooding the border is not immigration
per se, legal or illegal, but control of the border. Further, it's an issue of the ongoing lawlessness of the executive branch of the federal government under the Kenyan. EVERY sovereign nation has the right, actually the duty, to control its borders.
Let's be very clear about this. The immigration issue, as it has existed for 60 years or more, is an issue regarding illegal, unwanted
Hispanic immigrants. They're not illegal because they're Hispanic. They're not unwanted because they're Hispanic. They're illegal because we have laws that outline how you get to come here legally, and they have broken those laws. They're unwanted because we don't have any need or desire for them to come here. And they're Hispanic because they're Hispanic. We don't have a problem with the borders being overrun by Czechs or Poles or Lithuanians or Chinese or Koreans or Russians or Portuguese or French or Dutch. We have a problem with Hispanics forcing their way into this country illegally from Mexico, or from Central America by way of Mexico. And right now we have a problem with a flood of Hispanic 'children' who are surging across the southern borders -- and immediately surrendering to the first person they see with a badge -- because the current President of the United States -- without the consent of the Congress or the American people -- has all but promised them they can stay.
Please endeavor to get more of a grasp on the issue before you attempt to engage us in debate on the subject.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PMFuck, some of your politicians have voted to cut funding to cancer research. Tell me, what kills more people; cancer, or illegal immigrants? :rolleyes:
Cancer research, a laudable, worthwhile endeavor, is not the responsibility of the federal government of the United States. Securing the borders IS the responsibility of the federal government of the United States. I can't say which activity kills more people, and you can't either. What a stupid comparison. I would have thought you could see the difference.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PMPlease do not reply with, "they are breaking the law".
I already pointed out that they are breaking the law. You are really stretching the patience of the powers that be around here by trying to instruct us how we may or may not respond to you.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PMThe issue here is why you want that law in the first place, but not laws against practices infinitely more dangerous to our society.
No, that's merely the way you would like to frame an issue. It's not even "the" issue. It appears that you live in a strange world populated with straw men decorated with apples and oranges.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 28, 2014, 09:11:38 PMAlso, notice my use of the word "most". I don't give a damn that you personally are OK with seatbelt laws, and I don't want to hear your indignant speech about how I'm generalizing.
Hey, I'm personally OK with seatbelt laws, but I sure hate the way you generalize.
Putz.
Quote from: TboneAgain on July 31, 2014, 07:30:31 PM
No, that's not true as a blanket statement, and you know it, but the statement carries enough veracity that I'll let it slide for now.
These are all verifiable lies. Not surprising. Interesting that you would claim that seatbelts, or government regulations regarding seatbelts, or even opposition to seatbelts or government regulations on seatbelts "kill hundreds of thousands of people a year." I hadn't heard that one before. Provide sources or we'll just toss these into the massive SFF Bullshit Bucket.
Conservatives support the federal government actually doing the very few specific things it's suited and authorized to do, and one of those things is securing the nation's borders. Any nation that does not or cannot secure its borders ceases to be a nation.
I'm sure you spend the first half-hour of your day on your knees, wishing away second-hand smoke and illegal immigration. And then you spend a half-hour telling yourself that the two are somehow related, I guess because evil conservatives have spoken about both matters at some point. You can do better than this lame shit, SFF.
First of all, EVERYTHING government does happens at the point of a gun. The guy with a clipboard who examines your factory twice a month is a quick phone call away from introducing you to a man with a gun. That's what government is. And as you well know, the issue at hand with the children flooding the border is not immigration per se, legal or illegal, but control of the border. Further, it's an issue of the ongoing lawlessness of the executive branch of the federal government under the Kenyan. EVERY sovereign nation has the right, actually the duty, to control its borders.
Let's be very clear about this. The immigration issue, as it has existed for 60 years or more, is an issue regarding illegal, unwanted Hispanic immigrants. They're not illegal because they're Hispanic. They're not unwanted because they're Hispanic. They're illegal because we have laws that outline how you get to come here legally, and they have broken those laws. They're unwanted because we don't have any need or desire for them to come here. And they're Hispanic because they're Hispanic. We don't have a problem with the borders being overrun by Czechs or Poles or Lithuanians or Chinese or Koreans or Russians or Portuguese or French or Dutch. We have a problem with Hispanics forcing their way into this country illegally from Mexico, or from Central America by way of Mexico. And right now we have a problem with a flood of Hispanic 'children' who are surging across the southern borders -- and immediately surrendering to the first person they see with a badge -- because the current President of the United States -- without the consent of the Congress or the American people -- has all but promised them they can stay.
Please endeavor to get more of a grasp on the issue before you attempt to engage us in debate on the subject.
Cancer research, a laudable, worthwhile endeavor, is not the responsibility of the federal government of the United States. Securing the borders IS the responsibility of the federal government of the United States. I can't say which activity kills more people, and you can't either. What a stupid comparison. I would have thought you could see the difference.
I already pointed out that they are breaking the law. You are really stretching the patience of the powers that be around here by trying to instruct us how we may or may not respond to you.
No, that's merely the way you would like to frame an issue. It's not even "the" issue. It appears that you live in a strange world populated with straw men decorated with apples and oranges.
Hey, I'm personally OK with seatbelt laws, but I sure hate the way you generalize.
Putz.
And that folks is how it's done...
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1278.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy518%2FLocalGravy%2FMisc%2Fbeardslap_zps24d3605e.gif&hash=94cb905530dc8d70f892c870ba852f60fc5a6f9e)
Quote from: The Boo Man... on July 31, 2014, 07:46:29 PM
And that folks is how it's done...
He had another Glenn Ford-esq slap on another lib the other day too. I think he might have killed him.
Quote from: Darth Fife on July 31, 2014, 03:24:53 PM
There is only one president I know who deported children at the point of a gun...
Hahaha, yes. I keep forgetting about that, but yes.
This thread reminds me of:
Airplane! Slap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1Cpc8Vw-2A#)
Quote from: The Boo Man... on July 31, 2014, 07:46:29 PM
And that folks is how it's done...
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1278.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy518%2FLocalGravy%2FMisc%2Fbeardslap_zps24d3605e.gif&hash=94cb905530dc8d70f892c870ba852f60fc5a6f9e)
You're too kind. And to think, I didn't even have to mention the million or so potential Americans who fall victim to abortion doctors every year, roughly a third of them via the US taxpayer by way of grants to Planned Parenthood.
Quote from: taxed on July 31, 2014, 07:58:29 PM
This thread reminds me of:
Airplane! Slap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1Cpc8Vw-2A#)
Only because you took it that way... :tounge:
There is so much wrong with this thread I can't be bothered. I could list a dozen reasons why we oppose illegal immigration that don't include the obvious.
Quote from: The Boo Man... on July 31, 2014, 09:43:05 PM
There is so much wrong with this thread I can't be bothered. I could list a dozen reasons why we oppose illegal immigration that don't include the obvious.
If you mean there's so much wrong in the OP, I couldn't agree more. Normally, I let SFF slide; I try to pretend he's not there. But every now and then he just shows his ass and.... well, I aim carefully and pull the trigger. :tounge:
Quote from: TboneAgain on July 31, 2014, 09:57:11 PM
If you mean there's so much wrong in the OP, I couldn't agree more. Normally, I let SFF slide; I try to pretend he's not there. But every now and then he just shows his ass and.... well, I aim carefully and pull the trigger. :tounge:
An impetuous child in need of serious adult attention via the belt.
Wanna bet, mommy even caved on timeouts?
"You're in trouble young person (she hated labels), now you're in timeout for 1 hour."
Ohhh, mommy can't be mad at the most special person since the beginning of time, three minutes was long enough, I'm sure you learned your lesson, now this time, no torturing of little animals, OK special person?"
Quote from: The Boo Man... on July 31, 2014, 09:43:05 PM
There is so much wrong with this thread I can't be bothered. I could list a dozen reasons why we oppose illegal immigration that don't include the obvious.
You mean that part about it being ILLEGAL and all, that, right? :wink:
-Darth
Quote from: carlb on July 29, 2014, 03:51:31 AM
Smoking is a personal choice. Defense of the borders is the #1 responsibility of government.
Smoking is a personal choice, but crossing the borders is not? Do illegal immigrants cause more damage than smoking?
Quote
If you had a daughter, wife, sister raped and murdered by a foreign invader, you'd understand.
If you had a daughter, wife, sister dying from lung cancer by second hand smoking, you'd understand. Why aren't we diverting your border patrols to taking out the tobacco companies? If you were really concerned with addressing the issues that cause the greatest amount of damage in human lives, you would have a completely different set of priorities.
Quote from: taxed on July 30, 2014, 04:00:35 PM
Conservatism isn't an ideology. It's a way of life.
Do you say that to yourself in a mirror every night, before you go to bed? :rolleyes:
Quote
Government regulation isn't generally bad; over regulation is.
And your criteria for what constitutes overregulation is...?
QuoteThe free market is a wonderful thing.
The free market would suggest that if these illegal immigrants were taking American jobs, it's because they offer greater value at a lower price, ie, they are superior. It turns out that this is unacceptable to you, and
here is where you step in government regulation. Never mind your opposition to regulations on issues that kill orders of magnitudes more people every year.
Quote
"Apparently"?
False premise, we aren't anti-regulation. That is something you dreamed up, or your professor told you to think and parrot.
The point obviously sailed over your head - the issue here is the
double standard of obsessively regulating illegal immigration and doing comparatively little about smoking or alcohol, despite these killing thousands of times more people. You've crafted a priority list based on the emotional kneejerk fear reaction rather than any sort of objective danger assessment, and illegals hopping fences scares you more than something as abstract and distant as lung cancer, the statistics be dammed.
Quote
Not up to speed on the Constitution, are you professor? Read Article IV, section 4.
There's a reason why we have the dictionary word "trespassing" that we do
not use as a synonym for "invasion". Invasion is an organized infiltration by an enemy military force; it is the height of pedantry to equate this to a bunch of teenagers sneaking into the country to work as migrant farmers.
Quote
Government, since it's responsible for both. It kills innovation, and let's criminals and third-world disease spill in.
:lol: This has to be the dumbest thing I've heard in a long, long time. How many vaccinations and medical treatments were invented without any sort of public funding? I'm googling the major ones: penicillin, smallpox vaccine, polio vaccine...huh, it turns out none of these were developed by Joe the Farmer living in the wilderness. It turns out, the National Institute of Health has done a little more for those types of things than private enterprise. :rolleyes:
Quote
Let's start you on the basics. Maybe you can bring it to your professor and you can educate him. We aren't anti-regulation, and border security is in the Constitution. See how easy that is?
The general welfare is also in the Constitution, but you don't seem to factor "general welfare" into your arithmetic at all. You'd rather pay 500 billion dollars to prevent 2000 Americans from losing their jobs to illegal immigrants than pay 100 billion to prevent 100,000 Americans from dying of lung cancer. Just a 1% increase in funding to NIH would be a far greater utilitarian benefit to our nation than all the fences and machoistic posturing we can aim at our southern neighbors, and it's ridiculous that you can't figure this out.
Quote from: Walter Josh on July 30, 2014, 08:43:07 PM
Traditional and principled Conservatism has never been an ideology
and transcends party politics.
It was born in Periclean Athens and
represents an idea and an attitude as to how one must behave to
honor the ageless wisdom of the past.
:lol: The "ageless wisdom of the past"? ROFLAMO - you obviously are not a big fan of Newtonian mechanics, vaccinations, or civil rights, since these were all modern, progressive developments only made possible because we
realized our ancestors were wrong! Why the fuck would you base your "principled conservatism" on a city-state that had institutionalized slavery?
Quote from: Darth Fife on July 31, 2014, 03:24:53 PM
Seat belts save lives, but is it the Government Job to make sure you wear one since the only one affected by its non-use would be yourself?
Unless if you're a hermit living in the middle of nowhere with absolutely no contacts or relationships, your death is hardly something that only affects yourself.
Quote
If you believe it is the government's job to protect you from doing something stupid, say good bye to any kind of extreme sport or hobby! (Bungee jumping, skydiving, auto racing, and don't even get me started on skateboards, skiing or trampolines)
All of these sports are government regulated, buddy. And those government regulations save
orders of magnitude more lives than stopping illegal immigration ever would. Would you like to compare the number of deaths caused by automobiles to the number of deaths caused by illegal immigrants?
Quote
Cigarettes. Instead of taxing tobacco products with a "sin tax" why not just outlaw all tobacco products?
Two reasons: 1 Tax revenue (both parties profit from that), and 2 political lobbying by the tobacco industry. While conventional wisdom says that most money goes to Republicans on this matter, a little know fact is that the tobacco lobby gets more bang for its buck by spreading the wealth (to coin a phrase) on the Democrat side.
Outlawing tobacco products is a government regulation on capitalistic commerce, ie, obviously a fiscally liberal policy, the personal conduct of democratic and republican fundraising organizations aside.
Quote
According to the American Journal of Preventive Medicine article 27 Dec 2004, money provided to Democrat politicians by the tobacco lobby, was twice as effective in getting that member to vote in favor of pro tobacco legislation than it would be for a Republican.
Funny thing that you don't just compare how likely the two parties are to back the tobacco companies outright, instead of this suspiciously cherry picked assertion of yours.
Quote
Are you claiming they don't? What statistics/studies do you have to support your assertion?
Are you seriously asking me to prove a negative? :rolleyes:
Quote
I think you'd find yourself hard pressed to produce a death certificate that lists the cause of death "Second Hand Smoke". There is a reason for this. If it takes a 1st hand smoker 40 or 50 years to die from smoking how long will it take someone, who inhales far less smoke to die from "Second Hand Smoke"?
That's...not how it works, at all. It isn't a question of it taking "40 or 50 years to die from smoking" vs taking, say, 150 years to die from second hand smoking, or whatever ridiculous fantasy you have in your head. Those exposed to second hand smoking, especially children and fetuses, have been documented to have significantly greater susceptibility to lung cancer and other harmful conditions. This conclusion has been drawn independently by virtually every reputable medical organization in the world.
Oh, and isn't it so convenient that you think death is the
only negative side effect of inhaling tobacco?
Quote
As for the rest of your sweeping generalization, you will not find a Conservative, especially not on this forum who is opposed to rational and sane regulation of dangerous environmental toxins that are used by or produced by industry.
You seemed to imply above that you were opposed to, or ambivalent of, seatbelt laws. Not-wearing-a-seatbelt kills far more people annually than illegal immigrants do. Why does your willingness to bring the government into affairs have more to do with the tangibility and fear-factor of the problem than the actual damage inflicted?
Quote
There is only one president I know who deported children at the point of a gun...
Oh, so you admit that deporting children is a bad thing? Thanks for the concession, and I guess thanks for the completely irrelevant attempt to shift the topic from ideas to the conduct of individual politicians.
Quote
You are going to have to provide documentation for that allegation.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-20/republican-science-cuts-imperil-u-s-prominence-commentary-by-albert-hunt.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-20/republican-science-cuts-imperil-u-s-prominence-commentary-by-albert-hunt.html)
QuoteWhy not? They are. AND "most" will continue to break laws once they get here!
Obviously, because it's a circular argument - the argument assumes that current immigration law is ideal. By this logic, we should have shut down the abortion debate after Roe v Wade. :rolleyes:
Quote
Okay, why do you lock your doors at night? Why do you lock your car when you leave it in a parking lot? "Most" people who walk by your house or your car are not going to steal anything from it or try to harm you!
Why don't you let just anyone into your home? Are you xenophobic or just racist?
Shitty analogy - the issue here is
priorities, not whether or not you should be 100% trusting of all undocumented immigrants.
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi183.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx46%2Frebelrhoads%2FBeatingADeadHorseAni.gif&hash=42f0c0d58ca17db5a0b52457cac848ef5ff28238)
Quote from: ConservativeMe on July 31, 2014, 03:34:44 PM
I always do a facepalm whenever I see what amounts to because conservatives are against new regulations they must be for zero regulations. No. Personally I'd like to see the regulations we have enforced. Making new regulations usually only makes more paperwork, and generally does not help enforce laws which are already being broken.
So you're in favor of all existing regulation, but oppose adding on any new regulations? That has a bit of an obvious problem to it- that existing regulation never would have been passed in the first place with your philosophy.
Quote
As for illegal immigration, I'd like to see democrats and liberals actually enforce the laws we have in place? Is that so difficult? I know many people who have come here *gasp* legally! These are people from all over, from Africa, to Europe to Asia to South America. They all did it legally.
The question is why your party is so obsessed with enforcing those particular laws. I don't think you'd be able to maintain enough composure to type into your keyboard that you'd host national publicized redneck "we hate you alien children!" rallies to enforce Roe v Wade, or even sanitation laws. There's obviously something about illegal immigration that irks you above and beyond the actual, documented damage it causes, since that really isn't all that much.
Quote from: Billy's bayonet on July 31, 2014, 06:25:14 PM
I don't know where you get your stats from (please don't quote stats) as a former Stat man myself who developed the fine art of the body count in Vietnam I know what kind of smoke and mirrors the whole business is.
You don't need to manipulate the statistics to point out that more people are killed by DUIs than illegal immigrants, yet I don't see massive republican political movements to crack down on drunk drivers, for some reason. Maybe it's because DUIs aren't something you can rally your tribalistic herdsvoters around with?
Quote
True conservatives beleive in strict enforcement of MALA EN SE crimes and harsh punishment for those who break the law. LAW and ORDER...Security etc. Liberals, leftists coddle those felons and come up with all sorts of mitigation especially when Minorities such as some illegals who are overhwhelmingly involved.
Not really. Case study: marital rape was only criminalized after a fairly protracted legal movement by what Rush Limbaugh would call "feminazis". I did not see the "LAW AND ORDER!!!!" republicans jumping on board that one.
Republicans are obsessed with justice in regards to a very particular set of laws being violated by a very particular set of enemies. The point is, the magnitude of their outrage has no correlation to the actual damage caused by the crime.
Quote
Now what 'sane' person would choose a hoard of penniless, needy illegals, possibly diseased, likely to be in thrall to vicious drug cartels over "second hand smoke".....I can walk away from some goof smoking a cigarette, I can;t walk away from a bunch of south of the border Vato's who are under the protection of some idiot bastard in the White house.
Putting together a string of adjectives doesn't magically refute the fact that secondhand smoking hospitalizes up to 15,000 infants a year. [3.U.S. Department of Health and Human Services] Oh, I'm sorry, did I mention that children with no ability to "walk away from some goof smoking a cigarette" are affected too? Funny that you only considered your own options in the most convenient possible circumstances. Unless if you're going to prove that 15,000 infants a year are hospitalized by illegal immigrants, you've admitted that you care more about what intuitively frightens you than what the actual damage caused is. You know, my entire point.
Quote
Now pull your head out of your ass and do some real research on the impact of crime, disease and illegal immigration on AMERICAN lives and society.
Take your own advice. Compare the death rates of heavy industry and illegal immigration, or the fiscal damage caused by financial corruption and illegal immigration, and explain why you think the latter is so much more important.
Quote from: TboneAgain on July 31, 2014, 07:30:31 PM
No, that's not true as a blanket statement, and you know it,
Of course I know it. I say that right at the end of my post. :huh:
QuoteThese are all verifiable lies. Not surprising. Interesting that you would claim that seatbelts, or government regulations regarding seatbelts, or even opposition to seatbelts or government regulations on seatbelts "kill hundreds of thousands of people a year." I hadn't heard that one before. Provide sources or we'll just toss these into the massive SFF Bullshit Bucket.
The English language is your friend.
"Most conservatives oppose government regulations on tobacco, seatbelts, and toxic chemicals emitted by industrial factories. These kill hundreds of thousands of people a year. Let the free market handle it, they say." Obviously, "these" is not referring to "government regulations", since I clearly support them. "These" must be referring to tobacco, which the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services attributes to 500,000 deaths annually. The exact number is besides the point - any remotely reasonable figure is orders of magnitude more severe than any deaths caused by illegal immigrants, let alone undocumented children.
Quote
Conservatives support the federal government actually doing the very few specific things it's suited and authorized to do, and one of those things is securing the nation's borders. Any nation that does not or cannot secure its borders ceases to be a nation.
Funny, because we've obviously done a piss poor job of securing our borders, and yet we're still a functioning nation. Our debt is going to have a better shot at killing us than all the illegal immigrants in the world, but you still obsess over it, for some reason.
Quote
I'm sure you spend the first half-hour of your day on your knees, wishing away second-hand smoke and illegal immigration. And then you spend a half-hour telling yourself that the two are somehow related, I guess because evil conservatives have spoken about both matters at some point. You can do better than this lame shit, SFF.
I don't think you're managing to follow what I'm saying at all - nowhere did I suggest that second-hand smoking and illegal immigration are related. I did suggest that secondhand smoking is significantly more dangerous than illegal immigration by any statistical measure, and that conservative policymaking clearly doesn't give a shit about such petty, rational considerations.
Quote
First of all, EVERYTHING government does happens at the point of a gun.
No shit?
QuoteAnd as you well know, the issue at hand with the children flooding the border is not immigration per se, legal or illegal, but control of the border.
Translation: it's not about any sort of rational, tangible harm, but our need to
feel safe and powerful. Because that's obviously a more pressing issue than things that are actually killing us in large numbers.
QuoteFurther, it's an issue of the ongoing lawlessness of the executive branch of the federal government under the Kenyan. EVERY sovereign nation has the right, actually the duty, to control its borders.
Why is protecting one's borders more important than ensuring the health and safety of one's citizens from domestic affairs, if those domestic affairs cause substantially more damage? You are more concerned with questions of what "type" of threat it is, rather than how big of a damage it can actually do to us.
Quote
Let's be very clear about this. The immigration issue, as it has existed for 60 years or more, is an issue regarding illegal, unwanted Hispanic immigrants. They're not illegal because they're Hispanic. They're not unwanted because they're Hispanic. They're illegal because we have laws that outline how you get to come here legally, and they have broken those laws. They're unwanted because we don't have any need or desire for them to come here. And they're Hispanic because they're Hispanic. We don't have a problem with the borders being overrun by Czechs or Poles or Lithuanians or Chinese or Koreans or Russians or Portuguese or French or Dutch. We have a problem with Hispanics forcing their way into this country illegally from Mexico, or from Central America by way of Mexico. And right now we have a problem with a flood of Hispanic 'children' who are surging across the southern borders -- and immediately surrendering to the first person they see with a badge -- because the current President of the United States -- without the consent of the Congress or the American people -- has all but promised them they can stay.
How does any of this address the observation that plenty of more pressing dangers to the public safety are ignored by conservatives for something that obviously more strongly ignites your moral outrage?
QuoteCancer research, a laudable, worthwhile endeavor, is not the responsibility of the federal government of the United States.
Bullshit. The federal government explicitly has the duty to promote the general welfare and fund the useful sciences. More to the point, you once again focus more on legalities than practicalities or even moral principles.
Quote
Securing the borders IS the responsibility of the federal government of the United States. I can't say which activity kills more people, and you can't either. What a stupid comparison. I would have thought you could see the difference.
Bullshit. You
can say that cancer kills more people than illegal immigrants do, and only a complete idiot would suggest otherwise.
Quote
I already pointed out that they are breaking the law. You are really stretching the patience of the powers that be around here by trying to instruct us how we may or may not respond to you.
You obviously think that children breaking immigration laws should be a greater focus of the federal government than cancer research. You will now justify this assertion.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on August 10, 2014, 09:54:51 PM
There's obviously something about illegal immigration that irks you above and beyond the actual, documented damage it causes, since that really isn't all that much.
Tell that to the American citizens that have bee victimized by illegals. More Americans have died because of Illegals than the Iraq war. Why bare their lives so unimportant to you?
Quote from: carlb on August 10, 2014, 10:21:41 PM
Tell that to the American citizens that have bee victimized by illegals. More Americans have died because of Illegals than the Iraq war. Why bare their lives so unimportant to you?
How many have died, exactly? Please cite your source, and then I'll compare that death toll to tolls from smoking, DUIs, and the oil industry.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on August 10, 2014, 10:23:54 PM
How many have died, exactly? Please cite your source, and then I'll compare that death toll to tolls from smoking, DUIs, and the oil industry.
Do your own homework.
So, unless we ban smoking we
HAVE TO allow violent criminals to come into our country unchecked? One has nothing to do with the other. I thought you at least tried to be a logical man. The oil industry? Seriously?
Quote from: carlb on August 10, 2014, 10:49:43 PM
Do your own homework.
Debating 101: the burden of proof rests on whoever makes the assertion. Prove up or shut up.
Quote
So, unless we ban smoking we HAVE TO allow violent criminals to come into our country unchecked?
No, but refusing to regulate or ban smoking while being obsessed with stopping illegal immigration
IS a massive double standard.
Quote
The oil industry? Seriously?
Clearly the point sailed way over your head: I could rattle off any random assortment of seemingly trivial things that kill more people than illegal immigrants yet receive none of the trademarked conservative self-righteous chest beating.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on August 10, 2014, 09:26:33 PM
Do you say that to yourself in a mirror every night, before you go to bed? :rolleyes:
I don't need to. It's just nature.
Quote
And your criteria for what constitutes overregulation is...?
If it hurts people, or is criminal, then it shouldn't be allowed.
Quote
The free market would suggest that if these illegal immigrants were taking American jobs, it's because they offer greater value at a lower price, ie, they are superior. It turns out that this is unacceptable to you, and here is where you step in government regulation. Never mind your opposition to regulations on issues that kill orders of magnitudes more people every year.
Wrong. You're taking a misinformed, academic position. We have enough labor within our country and borders. The free market will find the point where the required skill and wage of a job meets the supply of those willing to work for that wage, with that available skill. The free market will find the solution, so you don't need to import gang members and third world diseases. Just quit trying to destroy our country, please.
Quote
The point obviously sailed over your head - the issue here is the double standard of obsessively regulating illegal immigration and doing comparatively little about smoking or alcohol, despite these killing thousands of times more people. You've crafted a priority list based on the emotional kneejerk fear reaction rather than any sort of objective danger assessment, and illegals hopping fences scares you more than something as abstract and distant as lung cancer, the statistics be dammed.
You confuse American businesses operating in the free market with illegal immigration. They are not the same. You are correct about me caring more about illegals hopping the fences, bringing their crime and diseases. Smokers are allowed to give themselves lung cancer. I don't care. One is an invasion, and the other is a choice made by free people.
Quote
There's a reason why we have the dictionary word "trespassing" that we do not use as a synonym for "invasion". Invasion is an organized infiltration by an enemy military force; it is the height of pedantry to equate this to a bunch of teenagers sneaking into the country to work as migrant farmers.
QuoteDefinition of INVASION
1 : an act of invading; especially : incursion of an army for conquest or plunder
2 : the incoming or spread of something usually hurtful
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/invasion (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/invasion)
Quote
:lol: This has to be the dumbest thing I've heard in a long, long time. How many vaccinations and medical treatments were invented without any sort of public funding? I'm googling the major ones: penicillin, smallpox vaccine, polio vaccine...huh, it turns out none of these were developed by Joe the Farmer living in the wilderness. It turns out, the National Institute of Health has done a little more for those types of things than private enterprise. :rolleyes:
Because there has been private innovation doesn't mean the government doesn't interfere with it. The government hurts innovation overall, and in the medical sector, allows people to die from treatment they otherwise would be able to purchase cheaply over the free market.
Quote
The general welfare is also in the Constitution, but you don't seem to factor "general welfare" into your arithmetic at all.
This is a typical liberal anti-Constitutional position. The general welfare clause doesn't nullify the rest of the Constitution. You need to maybe read up a little on Madison, since he was asked about the general welfare clause. Why would there have been a Tenth Amendment if Congress had all the power to do whatever they want? Nevertheless, what libs always forget is the Constitution is for Americans, not third world illegals invading our society.
Quote
You'd rather pay 500 billion dollars to prevent 2000 Americans from losing their jobs
No. The free market determines who loses their jobs. Outside of academia, that's how it works.
Quote
to illegal immigrants than pay 100 billion to prevent 100,000 Americans from dying of lung cancer.
I don't care if Americans die of lung cancer. If they smoke, and they get lung cancer, then that is their problem. Nevertheless, they should be able to purchase otherwise suppressed medicine or biotech solutions created by greedy capitalists in the free market, priced by the free market. The government needs to stay out.
Quote
Just a 1% increase in funding to NIH would be a far greater utilitarian benefit to our nation than all the fences and machoistic posturing we can aim at our southern neighbors, and it's ridiculous that you can't figure this out.
No it wouldn't. It would be more money stolen from us producers that is thrown into a black hole of academia, unions, and bureaucracy. No money needs to be spent, and the solutions will be created by the free market.
Quote from: taxed on July 31, 2014, 07:58:29 PM
This thread reminds me of:
Airplane! Slap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1Cpc8Vw-2A#)
Oh so that woman was a liberal! Figures, now I get why everyone on the plane, including June Cleaver was bitch slapping her. Rofl
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on August 10, 2014, 11:03:51 PM
Debating 101: the burden of proof rests on whoever makes the assertion. Prove up or shut up.
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/08/04/Rape-Death-and-Police-Pursuits-Continue-as-Illegal-Immigrants-Flood-Falfurrias (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/08/04/Rape-Death-and-Police-Pursuits-Continue-as-Illegal-Immigrants-Flood-Falfurrias)
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/07/31/illegal-alien-beats-chinese-usc-student-to-death-with-bat/ (http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/07/31/illegal-alien-beats-chinese-usc-student-to-death-with-bat/)
http://wn.com/three_illegal_aliens_charged_with_murder (http://wn.com/three_illegal_aliens_charged_with_murder)
http://mountainrepublic.net/2011/01/31/illegals-wanted-for-teens-murder-surrender/ (http://mountainrepublic.net/2011/01/31/illegals-wanted-for-teens-murder-surrender/)
There are a number of other links, simply enter illegal alien crimes.
Quote from: mdgiles on August 11, 2014, 01:16:08 PM
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/08/04/Rape-Death-and-Police-Pursuits-Continue-as-Illegal-Immigrants-Flood-Falfurrias (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/08/04/Rape-Death-and-Police-Pursuits-Continue-as-Illegal-Immigrants-Flood-Falfurrias)
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/07/31/illegal-alien-beats-chinese-usc-student-to-death-with-bat/ (http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/07/31/illegal-alien-beats-chinese-usc-student-to-death-with-bat/)
http://wn.com/three_illegal_aliens_charged_with_murder (http://wn.com/three_illegal_aliens_charged_with_murder)
http://mountainrepublic.net/2011/01/31/illegals-wanted-for-teens-murder-surrender/ (http://mountainrepublic.net/2011/01/31/illegals-wanted-for-teens-murder-surrender/)
There are a number of other links, simply enter illegal alien crimes.
Yet this poster will still defend this lawless administration. Funny how libs want to play host to all the poor defenseless, innocent border babies and care nothing about the masses of babies being aborted right here in America.
Quote from: mdgiles on August 11, 2014, 01:16:08 PM
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/08/04/Rape-Death-and-Police-Pursuits-Continue-as-Illegal-Immigrants-Flood-Falfurrias (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/08/04/Rape-Death-and-Police-Pursuits-Continue-as-Illegal-Immigrants-Flood-Falfurrias)
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/07/31/illegal-alien-beats-chinese-usc-student-to-death-with-bat/ (http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2014/07/31/illegal-alien-beats-chinese-usc-student-to-death-with-bat/)
http://wn.com/three_illegal_aliens_charged_with_murder (http://wn.com/three_illegal_aliens_charged_with_murder)
http://mountainrepublic.net/2011/01/31/illegals-wanted-for-teens-murder-surrender/ (http://mountainrepublic.net/2011/01/31/illegals-wanted-for-teens-murder-surrender/)
There are a number of other links, simply enter illegal alien crimes.
Oh, wow, so you've proved that illegal immigrants are responsible for...4 crimes? And this proves the original contention: "More Americans have died because of Illegals
than the Iraq war"...how? Your grasp of elementary arithmetic is truly
embarrassing.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on August 11, 2014, 04:05:40 PM
Oh, wow, so you've proved that illegal immigrants are responsible for...4 crimes? And this proves the original contention: "More Americans have died because of Illegals than the Iraq war"...how? Your grasp of elementary arithmetic is truly embarrassing.
Illegals are responsible for up to 30% of the violent crime in America, as evidenced by a 30 to 35% Prison population in most States.
It really is impossible to accurately acess illegal immigrant crime because like most of our past history IMMIGRANT ON IMMIGRANT CRIME IS THE MOST PREVELANT, and likely for a number of reasons UNREPORTED.
In short illegals victimize their own more often than "regular" Americans. Just like Black on Black crime.
I would say that the most glaring example of illegal crime (on other illegals) is in teh Arizona cities of Phoenix and Tucson. Home invasion robberies KIDNAPPING FOR RANSON and extortion...the crime rate went up 130% since 2000.
Thats the thing you leftists don't understand, Illegals are more likely to suffer from other illegals, these people are a danger to themselves and their own ethnic group far more than' Americans'...this goes double for disease due to the close and constant interaction .
Quote from: Billy's bayonet on August 11, 2014, 05:51:31 PM
Illegals are responsible for up to 30% of the violent crime in America,
And smoking is responsible for up to 20% of all fatalities. You don't refute my point in the slightest.
BTW, not only would I expect a citation for this, I would also like to know how much more likely illegal immigrants are to commit violent crimes when you control for socio-economic stats.
Quote
as evidenced by a 30 to 35% Prison population in most States.
...wait, oh, what the fuck?
That is how you drew your conclusion? You assumed that comprising 30% of the prison population means that they must comprise 30% of the
violent crime in the States? Are you bullshitting, or just realllyyy incompetent?
Quote
It really is impossible to accurately acess illegal immigrant crime because like most of our past history IMMIGRANT ON IMMIGRANT CRIME IS THE MOST PREVELANT, and likely for a number of reasons UNREPORTED.
Well, yeah. Sort of like how the original pilgrims weren't exactly obeying the laws of the Natives whose land they were using. Isn't the fact that the original Americans were illegal immigrants a little inconvenient for you?
Quote
In short illegals victimize their own more often than "regular" Americans. Just like Black on Black crime.
So you care little enough about these immigrant children to let them starve or die back in their country, and now you suddenly care about their being victims of crime?
Quote
I would say that the most glaring example of illegal crime (on other illegals) is in teh Arizona cities of Phoenix and Tucson. Home invasion robberies KIDNAPPING FOR RANSON and extortion...the crime rate went up 130% since 2000.
Verify that this 130% increase in crime is a result of illegal immigration. After your pathetic "Prison population = all violent felons" gem, I'm not taking anything on your word.
Quote
Thats the thing you leftists don't understand, Illegals are more likely to suffer from other illegals, these people are a danger to themselves and their own ethnic group far more than' Americans'...this goes double for disease due to the close and constant interaction .
Give me the data that these illegal immigrants are more likely to be hurt in the United States than they would be back home, because I call bullshit on that, quite frankly.
Si Fi Fan:
Just curious, Do you believe in OPEN borders for the USA? Do you believe ANYONE who wants to come here has a RIGHT to come, without restriction?
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on August 11, 2014, 06:10:13 PM
And smoking is responsible for up to 20% of all fatalities. You don't refute my point in the slightest.
No I don;t, how much do drugs (including Marijuana) contribute to the fatality, disease, crime rate? do you get high? :popcorn:
...wait, oh, what the fuck? That is how you drew your conclusion? You assumed that comprising 30% of the prison population means that they must comprise 30% of the violent crime in the States? Are you bullshitting, or just realllyyy incompetent?
Incompetent? Really :popcorn: How do you explain a 30% illegal prison population? Oh and we're talking about REPORTED CRIMES, since most illegals commit crime on other illegals most goes unreported.
Well, yeah. Sort of like how the original pilgrims weren't exactly obeying the laws of the Natives whose land they were using. Isn't the fact that the original Americans were illegal immigrants a little inconvenient for you?
So you care little enough about these immigrant children to let them starve or die back in their country, and now you suddenly care about their being victims of crime?
Victims of crimes etc on US SOIL thats the difference.....What about all the children starving in Africa, Asia and china...why not invite the entire world in? Impractical and unattainable, you cannot save the world, why not concentrate on the problems we have NOW before overloading the system?
Verify that this 130% increase in crime is a result of illegal immigration. After your pathetic "Prison population = all violent felons" gem, I'm not taking anything on your word.
I don't give a rats swollen ass what you take, if you really wanted to you could google up the stats and facts yourself but it probably would fit you bandwagon so you just run your mouth....I have 25 years as an investigator in major crimes and 15 years in private industry and have worked in 30 foreign countries.
Give me the data that these illegal immigrants are more likely to be hurt in the United States than they would be back home, because I call bullshit on that, quite frankly.
No you get the data on your own, you might learn something...Look up the FBI crime stats
or the IACP (international association of chiefs of police) stats on Black on black and immigrant on immigrant crime....or actually listen to Arizona lawmen and border patrol agents
Quote from: Billy's bayonet on August 11, 2014, 06:32:39 PM
No I don;t, how much do drugs (including Marijuana) contribute to the fatality, disease, crime rate? do you get high? :popcorn:
What does this have to do with my smoking argument?
Quote
Incompetent? Really :popcorn: How do you explain a 30% illegal prison population? Oh and we're talking about REPORTED CRIMES, since most illegals commit crime on other illegals most goes unreported.
Sweetie, not all prisoners are violent felons, so you can't assume that all the illegal immigrants in there are there for violent felonies. Duh.
Quote
Victims of crimes etc on US SOIL thats the difference.....
Oh, so their lives are more important now that they're on US soil? Funny that you say that, and then eagerly deport them back to violent, unstable countries.
Quote
What about all the children starving in Africa, Asia and china...why not invite the entire world in? Impractical and unattainable, you cannot save the world, why not concentrate on the problems we have NOW before overloading the system?
Demonstrate that it is "impractical and unattainable" to accommodate the refugee children we currently have.
Quote
I don't give a rats swollen ass what you take, if you really wanted to you could google up the stats and facts yourself but it probably would fit you bandwagon so you just run your mouth....I have 25 years as an investigator in major crimes and 15 years in private industry and have worked in 30 foreign countries.
In other words, you were bluffing and had no evidence, so you're just going to appeal to your own authority. :rolleyes: I love the part where you think it's my job to google the stats that
you brought up.
Quote
No you get the data on your own, you might learn something...Look up the FBI crime stats
Debating 101: burden of proof lies on the person making the claim.
Quote
or the IACP (international association of chiefs of police) stats on Black on black and immigrant on immigrant crime....or actually listen to Arizona lawmen and border patrol agents
You didn't even understand the sentence properly: I was asking for how much danger these immigrants were in
compared to if they had stayed in their home countries.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on August 11, 2014, 09:25:10 PM
In other words, you were bluffing and had no evidence, so you're just going to appeal to your own authority. :rolleyes: I love the part where you think it's my job to google the stats that you brought up.
Debating 101: burden of proof lies on the person making the claim.
You didn't even understand the sentence properly: I was asking for how much danger these immigrants were in compared to if they had stayed in their home countries.
A: You're in no position to talk about authority, when the position you champion is one which ignores the authority of the American people and their government to establish, protect, and defend their own national borders.
B: How much danger they are in if they remain at home is irrelevant. The United States, nor it's government exist to provide safety and security for them or their nation.
Which is the root of the fallacy of the liberal argument. It is one which presupposes we (the United States Government) are the worlds babysitter/nanny. And yet nowhere was it ever even suggested, much less ever enumerated by our founding law, the Constitution, that the United States should have a government which does so...ut oh.
Quote from: daidalos on August 11, 2014, 09:32:40 PM
A: You're in no position to talk about authority
...wow, you people would all get run out of my middle school debate team. Appeal to Authority is a formal
logical fallacy, it has nothing to do with the legal authority of a democratic voting body.
Quote
B: How much danger they are in if they remain at home is irrelevant. The United States, nor it's government exist to provide safety and security for them or their nation.
You're more concerned with what the "duty" and jurisdiction of our government is than with what actions will create the greatest actual good. You're playing semantics rather than looking for solutions that benefit actual people.
Quote
Which is the root of the fallacy of the liberal argument. It is one which presupposes we (the United States Government) are the worlds babysitter/nanny.
No. But the immigrants who are
already here are our problem, whether they have the papers or not. The blanket solution to deport them all is nonsense by any moral system other than your dogmatic brand of legalism.
I'd swear Debbie Wassermann Schultz is posting here. The idiocy is amazing.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on August 11, 2014, 04:05:40 PM
Oh, wow, so you've proved that illegal immigrants are responsible for...4 crimes? And this proves the original contention: "More Americans have died because of Illegals than the Iraq war"...how? Your grasp of elementary arithmetic is truly embarrassing.
Actually there were quite a few more, but since no amount of evidence will convince you of how dangerous some of these illegals are; I saw no reason to put more than a few down. You are welcome to Google the links I gave you, they often contain links to other crimes by illegals. In any case you cant't seem to comprehend why crimes committed by illegals are worse; it's because they shouldn't even be here.
Quote from: Solar on August 12, 2014, 05:20:31 AM
I'd swear Debbie Wassermann Schultz is posting here. The idiocy is amazing.
Kneel to the power of the burn!
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.fotki.com%2F1_p%2Csgbqtqqgrrqdggwxbqfqsbrwqdbw%2Cvi%2Frbfbddwwfxwsffrbtgd%2F1%2F1595431%2F10201489%2Fthestupiditburns300x341-vi.jpg&hash=0080e5c16b8c97586153530be2c1eb51d29942a2)
Quote from: mdgiles on August 12, 2014, 05:40:15 AM
Actually there were quite a few more, but since no amount of evidence will convince you of how dangerous some of these illegals are; I saw no reason to put more than a few down. You are welcome to Google the links I gave you, they often contain links to other crimes by illegals. In any case you cant't seem to comprehend why crimes committed by illegals are worse; it's because they shouldn't even be here.
Wow, what a shamelessly transparent way of backtracking. So you admit that your set of four links proves absolutely nothing beyond that there have been at least 4 people killed/raped by illegal immigrants, and that you think anecdotes constitute legitimate evidence? Do you seriously think those 4 links do
anything to prove that illegals kill more people than the Iraqi war?
BTW, these rhetorical techniques you're trying to use are older than even you. One of them is refusing to provide evidence by assuming the other side won't accept them anyway, which is absurd, because all you need is some sort of well researched, peer reviewed estimation of the number of illegal immigrant-related violent crimes. There have been
numerous such estimations, it's just that none of them actually support the notion that they've killed more people than Iraq.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on August 11, 2014, 09:25:10 PM
What does this have to do with my smoking argument?
you are the one making an issue over how 'dangerous' smoking is, so do you engage in such practise, if not with cigarettes then with MJ?
Sweetie, not all prisoners are violent felons, so you can't assume that all the illegal immigrants in there are there for violent felonies. Duh.
Not assuming anything, simple fact to get locked down in a PRISON you really got to do something bad or have a horrendous record (which impacts ones sentence). Besides you still can't get away from the fact 30% OR MORE of the Prison population in the USA are illegals.
Oh, so their lives are more important now that they're on US soil? Funny that you say that, and then eagerly deport them back to violent, unstable countries.
Demonstrate that it is "impractical and unattainable" to accommodate the refugee children we currently have.
In one of your responses in these threads you said something about the debt being more of a destructive factor to the USA than "illegal immigrants", interesting that you don't realize that by assuming responsiblity for hoards of needy aliens creats even more debt. Or you do and typical leftists are a hypocrit as well.
In other words, you were bluffing and had no evidence, so you're just going to appeal to your own authority. :rolleyes: I love the part where you think it's my job to google the stats that you brought up.
I never bluff...I usually have the answer before I pose the question... :wink: but I see you don't wish to learn but only wish to belabor your tenous point.
Debating 101: burden of proof lies on the person making the claim.
Translation: (again) Don't make me look up facts I don't want to know.
You didn't even understand the sentence properly: I was asking for how much danger these immigrants were in compared to if they had stayed in their home countries.
Subjective..... :popcorn: besides its not our responsibility what goes on in their corrupt nations