Trump just rescinded his pledge: just pick a few

a.  to stay on the Republican ticket.
b.  to build the Mexican wall and have Mexico pay for it.
c.  to deport illegal aliens
d.  to support the Republican nominee, because he feels mistreated.
e.  to support the 2nd amendment.
f.  to raise taxes on the rich, cut taxes - oh heck the whole tax plan is up for grabs.
g.  to keep the internet free and uncensored.
h.  to keep the wife and children of his opponents off-limits.
j.   to allow VETS to get healthcare anywhere, anytime in any hospital / with any doctor.
k.   (fill in the blank with ANY campaign promise you THINK he's made)

He's not a politician, conservative, republican, statesman or outsider - he's talking like a SALESMAN, willing to say anything for your vote.  "Trust me, trust me, trust me!"   -why- 

Some interesting thoughts to consider. I note however a high level of invective with very emotion-laden terminology which tends to shut down dialogue on both sides of the Trump issue. Vituperation (the fixing of condemnation/character indictments on others due to substantive disagreements) is reassuring because it helps to eliminate self-doubt but weakens the substantive argument because it places the discussion back on emotions, not facts.

For the pro-Trump side, they take Trump's good character and intentions in pursuing a conservative agenda in most regards as fact (though largely unable to defend the view rationally), while the anti-Trump side takes the opposite view but is (at least for me) almost equally unable to make a compelling rational case (though there are admittedly some alarming facts and logical conjecture to consider in favor of that view).

For me the argument against voting for Trump if it comes to a choice between him or any 'Crat reduces to whether or not one is willing to accept the possibility that an agrarian populist like Trump will do less damage to the nation as president than self-acknowledged radical socialists.

For me condemning Trump absolutely is still a bridge too far to cross in large part because it accepts an absolutist, doctrinaire POV - as if Trump has been arrested, tried and convicted instead of only strongly suspected of crimes against conservative ideology which disqualify him from consideration as a viable alternative to an avowed leftist lunatic as president.

Cutting through all of the emotion on both sides and trying to place the debate on substantive, factual ground rather than on speculative conjecture is proving far more difficult than I ever anticipated it would.

Mercifully Trump seems to be well on the way to making all of this discussion of his moral / ideological fitness moot by self-destructing through missteps of his campaign. This latest problem with his campaign manager may well prove to be his Waterloo. Justified or not, the incident is showing signs of delivering a death-blow to the Trump campaign by eliminating any chance he might have had to make up strong negatives with key demographics like women and younger voters. Selah.

Quote from: Late-For-Lunch on March 30, 2016, 04:53:53 AM
Cutting through all of the emotion on both sides and trying to place the debate on substantive, factual ground rather than speculative conjecture is proving far more difficult than I ever anticipated it would.

Whenever there has been a substantive policy from Donald Trump - he pivots a month later, contradicts himself, and inserts personal attacks against Ted Cruz, branding him as "lying Ted" is not the way to have an honest debate.  This has been, and continues to be a one-sided smear campaign - and confirming who is the "presidential" candidate.

Quote from: Hoofer on March 30, 2016, 05:07:27 AM
Whenever there has been a substantive policy from Donald Trump - he pivots a month later, contradicts himself, and inserts personal attacks against Ted Cruz, branding him as "lying Ted" is not the way to have an honest debate.  This has been, and continues to be a one-sided smear campaign - and confirming who is the "presidential" candidate.

The longer Trump is on the stage the more stale his act becomes. More folks are beginning to see his lack of substance and organization. Just this week he selected someone to run his convention strategy. I would suspect Cruz has had a team for this aspect of the campaign from the get go.

Quote from: taxed on March 30, 2016, 12:13:36 AM
She wasn't.
Incorrect.  A-Mom is on the A-team of conservatives.  Your contrast to her is only eroding your delusion that you are one.
Those aren't feelings.  That is an established fact.  As a conservative, it is easy to identify that.  For a non-conservative, you get caught up in your hopes and dreams of what he could be.
The conversation ended when you attempted to lob the idiocy that Trump is anywhere near a conservative, or would be a better vote than Hillary.
No, I won't vote for Hillary.
Incorrect.  She is as conservative as Trump.  The difference is Hillary isn't pretending to have an ah-ha moment and flipping to conservative positions after 60+ years of liberal loyalty.  You are someone who thought Hussein was pro-capitalist, because he didn't admit to being a Marxist.  Your perspectives are at odds with thinking.
A fan?  yay.
This circles back to your delusional perspective.

Thank you for your kind words and support.   
Anyone who had any doubt if Trump is or ever was a conservative needed to only listen to him last night. He was asked what the three functions of the Federal Government are, He said Security, Healthcare and Education..  He backtracked quickly when pressed on 2/3 of those statements. That is just one example, the man is a walking contradiction upon himself. He has words and catch phrases but no substance or understanding of either our Constitution or bill of rights beyond what his rights are, that extends to those who support him...
  People get offended pretty quickly over the issue of whether we should vote for "whomever the candidate is" it is a must beat Hillary mentality that I reject and reject soundly, I believe with every fiber of my being that there are actually worse people to elect than she and Donald J Trump is one of them.

Edited to add link:
http://www.examiner.com/article/trump-health-care-education-two-of-three-top-government-functions

"I believe with every fiber of my being,"  So there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that you are mistaken !?! No chance whatsoever that Trump is just an agrarian populist who is trying to steer a middle course (a center-right) by using mostly emotionally-powerful but substantively vague (even contradictory) rhetoric? Those are some pretty strong fibers! 

I realize that this whole campaign has been shot through with more emotion than I've seen in a campaign, but I really think discussion of the central issues are being drowned out by vituperation (blaming people for being morally or intellectually inferior) and harsh invective much of the time.

For me, Trump supporters are not the enemy, they are potential allies with whom we other conservatives may disagree strongly - nothing more or less than that. It's always fun to denigrate adversaries (especially when they are on the waning side of the parabola as the Trump faction appears to be) but I question whether rhetoric and dialogue which separates people from each other benefits anyone except the 'Crats.

I have been for Cruz since the start of the campaign (i.e., before it was just a choice between he and Trump as the anti-establishment candidates) but I have never hated Trump nor considered him as bad or worse than Hill-O-Lies. In that I still think you and others who think like you are mistaken.

We may never know who was right because at this point is seems far more likely that Hill-O-lies will be president than that Trump ever will.

But I really think that those of us who believe in conservatives principles (which I do, regardless of what others may believe of me) need to start thinking more in terms of how to unify the party and bring Trump supporters back into the conservative movement than to condemn them with harsh vituperative, disrespectful rhetoric.

It's largely unproductive to question the motives or intentions of others because after all is said and done, only God knows the truth for certain. The rest of us must use evidence to make educated guesses at best. Trump's actions, policy-platforms, history and affiliations are fair game but focusing criticism on his supposed motives or basic character is unproductive and sort of unfair.

Believe what you like about Trump but please don't tell those who disagree with you that they are not sincere conservatives because they disagree with your appraisal and don't entirely share your POV. Unless you can read minds, all of your beliefs about Trump's true motives and intentions are speculations albeit with some evidence to back them up - but speculations nonetheless.

I treat Trump supporters as adversaries to be swayed not derided, but many treat them as enemies. There is a very dramatic difference.

Quote from: Late-For-Lunch on March 30, 2016, 07:40:47 AM
"I believe with every fiber of my being,"  So there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that you are mistaken !?! No chance whatsoever that Trump is just an agrarian populist who is trying to steer a middle course (a center-right) by using mostly emotionally-powerful but substantively vague (even contradictory) rhetoric? Those are some pretty strong fibers! 

I realize that this whole campaign has been shot through with more emotion than I've seen in a campaign, but I really think discussion of the central issues are being drowned out by vituperation (blaming people for being morally or intellectually inferior) and harsh invective much of the time.

For me, Trump supporters are not the enemy, they are potential allies with whom we other conservatives may disagree strongly - nothing more or less than that. It's always fun to denigrate adversaries (especially when they are on the waning side of the parabola as the Trump faction appears to be) but I question whether rhetoric and dialogue which separates people from each other benefits anyone except the 'Crats.

I have been for Cruz since the start of the campaign (i.e., before it was just a choice between he and Trump as the anti-establishment candidates) but I have never hated Trump nor considered him as bad or worse than Hill-O-Lies. In that I still think you and others who think like you are mistaken.

We may never know who was right because at this point is seems far more likely that Hill-O-lies will be president than that Trump ever will.

But I really think that those of us who believe in conservatives principles (which I do, regardless of what others may believe of me) need to start thinking more in terms of how to unify the party and bring Trump supporters back into the conservative movement than to condemn them with harsh vituperative, disrespectful rhetoric.

It's largely unproductive to question the motives or intentions of others because after all is said and done, only God knows the truth for certain. The rest of us must use evidence to make educated guesses at best. Trump's actions, policy-platforms, history and affiliations are fair game but focusing criticism on his supposed motives or basic character is unproductive and sort of unfair.

Believe what you like about Trump but please don't tell those who disagree with you that they are not sincere conservatives because they disagree with your appraisal and don't entirely share your POV. Unless you can read minds, all of your beliefs about Trump's true motives and intentions are speculations albeit with some evidence to back them up - but speculations nonetheless.

I treat Trump supporters as adversaries to be swayed not derided, but many treat them as enemies. There is a very dramatic difference.

Maybe you misunderstood me, but when I say I believe something as strongly as I believe trump is a disaster for the USA then it is because I have looked at the issue from all sides and reached a conclusions and I am consistent on that conclusion, by golly, Trump is the least consistent on anything, trump is not a Conservative that is a proven fact.  Trump stated he could shoot someone on 5th avenue and still have as much support, the died in the wool trump supporters prove that to be true.  I don't need to coddle and cuddle trump supports, I believe they are wrong in their support for a man who would do far more damage to this country than Hillary could ever dream of.  We have caught glimpses of how trump would run this country and people around him and I will fight to the bitter end to keep that man and his narcissistic beliefs away from the most powerful office in the world. It is that important to me, if I step on someone's toes or hurt someone's poor widdle feelings in the process well to dang bad.

Quote from: Late-For-Lunch on March 30, 2016, 04:53:53 AM
Some interesting thoughts to consider. I note however a high level of invective with very emotion-laden terminology which tends to shut down dialogue on both sides of the Trump issue.

Who cares what stupid people think?

Quote
Vituperation (the fixing of condemnation/character indictments on others due to substantive disagreements) is reassuring because it helps to eliminate self-doubt but weakens the substantive argument because it places the discussion back on emotions, not facts.

You're chasing your tail.  Trump requires emotion to have a following.  The higher level of thought, the lower his numbers are.  You can't be a thinker AND a Trump supporter.  The two properties are diametrically opposed.

Quote
For the pro-Trump side, they take Trump's good character and intentions in pursuing a conservative agenda in most regards as fact (though largely unable to defend the view rationally), while the anti-Trump side takes the opposite view but is (at least for me) almost equally unable to make a compelling rational case (though there are admittedly some alarming facts and logical conjecture to consider in favor of that view).

You saying conservatives can't make a case against Trump is evidence to our original point: you ignore reality and continue to surf a wave of delusion.

Quote
For me the argument against voting for Trump if it comes to a choice between him or any 'Crat reduces to whether or not one is willing to accept the possibility that an agrarian populist like Trump will do less damage to the nation as president than self-acknowledged radical socialists.

..more evidence to your (and any Trumper's) inability to think.  An 'R' next to your name doesn't just make you a conservative, and automatically better than Hillary.  Adhering to the same mentality of a loyal fan of a sports team that has lost for decades isn't what a normal person would call an "informed vote".

Quote
For me condemning Trump absolutely is still a bridge too far to cross in large part because it accepts an absolutist, doctrinaire POV - as if Trump has been arrested, tried and convicted instead of only strongly suspected of crimes against conservative ideology which disqualify him from consideration as a viable alternative to an avowed leftist lunatic as president.

This snippet drips of a strong desire to reach and reach.  I've seen more rigidity in a game of Twister.

Quote
Cutting through all of the emotion on both sides and trying to place the debate on substantive, factual ground rather than on speculative conjecture is proving far more difficult than I ever anticipated it would.

Yes.  Trump is such a rational subject worthy of pragmatic, unemotional perspective.

Quote
Mercifully Trump seems to be well on the way to making all of this discussion of his moral / ideological fitness moot by self-destructing through missteps of his campaign. This latest problem with his campaign manager may well prove to be his Waterloo. Justified or not, the incident is showing signs of delivering a death-blow to the Trump campaign by eliminating any chance he might have had to make up strong negatives with key demographics like women and younger voters. Selah.

His base is unaffected.  Again, it's an advantage one has when appealing to stupid people.

Quote from: Late-For-Lunch on March 30, 2016, 07:40:47 AM
"I believe with every fiber of my being,"  So there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that you are mistaken !?! No chance whatsoever that Trump is just an agrarian populist who is trying to steer a middle course (a center-right) by using mostly emotionally-powerful but substantively vague (even contradictory) rhetoric? Those are some pretty strong fibers! 

No.  Us normal people can identify a mentally deranged maniac who happened to have been left millions bucks by Daddy.  Trump doesn't know if he's coming or going.

Quote
I realize that this whole campaign has been shot through with more emotion than I've seen in a campaign, but I really think discussion of the central issues are being drowned out by vituperation (blaming people for being morally or intellectually inferior) and harsh invective much of the time.

I appreciate the way liberals try to hang onto the word "centrist", but we don't fall for it.  A liberal is a liberal, plain and simple.

Quote
For me, Trump supporters are not the enemy, they are potential allies with whom we other conservatives may disagree strongly - nothing more or less than that. It's always fun to denigrate adversaries (especially when they are on the waning side of the parabola as the Trump faction appears to be) but I question whether rhetoric and dialogue which separates people from each other benefits anyone except the 'Crats.

I understand you will support someone who happens to have an (R), but that doesn't just make them better than a Democrat.  You are either a conservative, or you aren't.  It really is that boolean no matter how much you want to believe and fantasize otherwise.

Quote
I have been for Cruz since the start of the campaign

Of course, he has an (R) next to his name.  Good enough for you...

Quote
(i.e., before it was just a choice between he and Trump as the anti-establishment candidates) but I have never hated Trump nor considered him as bad or worse than Hill-O-Lies. In that I still think you and others who think like you are mistaken.

No, we are not mistaken.  We just don't care about letters next to a name.  This isn't a Republican/GOP forum.

Quote
We may never know who was right because at this point is seems far more likely that Hill-O-lies will be president than that Trump ever will.

Trump is the only one Hillary could shred.

Quote
But I really think that those of us who believe in conservatives principles (which I do, regardless of what others may believe of me) need to start thinking more in terms of how to unify the party and bring Trump supporters back into the conservative movement than to condemn them with harsh vituperative, disrespectful rhetoric.

Stupid people need to be identified as stupid.  They need to know their place.  You can try and play nice with the dregs of society, but that's not what us conservatives care to do.

Quote
It's largely unproductive to question the motives or intentions of others because after all is said and done, only God knows the truth for certain. The rest of us must use evidence to make educated guesses at best. Trump's actions, policy-platforms, history and affiliations are fair game but focusing criticism on his supposed motives or basic character is unproductive and sort of unfair.

Nobody cares about stupid people.  Sorry.

Quote
Believe what you like about Trump but please don't tell those who disagree with you that they are not sincere conservatives because they disagree with your appraisal and don't entirely share your POV. Unless you can read minds, all of your beliefs about Trump's true motives and intentions are speculations albeit with some evidence to back them up - but speculations nonetheless.

You are a liberal.  Trump is a liberal.  That's just reality.

Quote
I treat Trump supporters as adversaries to be swayed not derided, but many treat them as enemies. There is a very dramatic difference.

I treat them well, but that's just because I don't want them to spit in my coffee.

Quote from: taxed on March 30, 2016, 08:45:55 AM
No.  Us normal people can identify a mentally deranged maniac who happened to have been left millions bucks by Daddy.  Trump doesn't know if he's coming or going.
I appreciate the way liberals try to hang onto the word "centrist", but we don't fall for it.  A liberal is a liberal, plain and simple.
I understand you will support someone who happens to have an (R), but that doesn't just make them better than a Democrat.  You are either a conservative, or you aren't.  It really is that boolean no matter how much you want to believe and fantasize otherwise.
Of course, he has an (R) next to his name.  Good enough for you...
No, we are not mistaken.  We just don't care about letters next to a name.  This isn't a Republican/GOP forum.
Trump is the only one Hillary could shred.
Stupid people need to be identified as stupid.  They need to know their place.  You can try and play nice with the dregs of society, but that's not what us conservatives care to do.
Nobody cares about stupid people.  Sorry.
You are a liberal.  Trump is a liberal.  That's just reality.
I treat them well, but that's just because I don't want them to spit in my coffee.

I love how you dissect responses word for word, I couldn't agree more with what you said... I don't have the patients for that   

Quote from: AmericanMom on March 30, 2016, 09:07:20 AM
I love how you dissect responses word for word, I couldn't agree more with what you said... I don't have the patients for that   

I usually don't anymore, but this one is just too easy to pass up.

Keeping with the original topic of this thread...

New Wisconsin poll out today from Marquette.

Poll taken March 24th-28th

QuoteTed Cruz - 39.6%
Donald Trump - 30.4%
John Kasich - 21.4%

Undecided - 7.7%

Other/Refused To Answer - 0.9%

I didnt notice it saying any percentage of a margin of error or any amount of voters that were polled.

Quote from: mrconservative on March 30, 2016, 10:01:51 AM
Keeping with the original topic of this thread...

New Wisconsin poll out today from Marquette.

Poll taken March 24th-28th

I didnt notice it saying any percentage of a margin of error or any amount of voters that were polled.

Link?
I did find this one though.

Marquette   Cruz 40, Trump 30, Kasich 21   Cruz +10

Quote from: Solar on March 30, 2016, 10:12:15 AM
Link?
I did find this one though.

Marquette   Cruz 40, Trump 30, Kasich 21   Cruz +10

I had orginally copied from a twitter posting of the poll.

"I (don't care about stupid people)." 

Christ did. God does. And so do I.

"If you agree with someone 80% they are your ally and you should welcome and work with them as such".   - Ronald Reagan

Refusing to grant someone like Trump the benefit of the doubt seems to me to be coming from a position of fear and weakness, not strength. Refusing to acknowledge that there is any trace of reasonable doubt about Trump's fitness to be president is troubling to me. It doesn't mean I consider people who believe otherwise to be unworthy of the label of conservative. 

See, a Trump-supporter rebellion could wreck any chance the most conservative candidate who can win has to win. And frankly losing the election troubles me far more than the idea that I or someone I support does not measure up because they are not 100% aligned with my preferred policies or ideology.

Sure, there is only so much compromise that one can accept, we just seem to differ on where that threshold lies. But if you want to take away my conservative label, molon labe.