Lets assume we are all judged when we die as to what our fate holds.
I have a theory on this, I don't believe God judges us so much on the evil we commit, rather the good we accomplished, where our hearts lied in the process.
Take a child born without the ability for empathy, he tortures everything he encounters, not because he's evil, but because he lacks the ability to understand it's wrong.
He dies at an early age, does God blame the child for his actions, or does he blame the parents for their inaction's?
Take a child in the Middle East raised to hate, threatened with his own and the lives of his family if he doesn't commit heinous acts, even though he tries to fight them, he fails in his efforts and kills hundreds.
Does he go to Hell? I just don't think so, I doubt it, I think we are judged on how much good we achieved in our short time on the planet, how much evil we averted in it's attempt to wrong others.
Yes, I believe there is a special place in Hell for many, I just don't think it's as cut and dried as we've been led to believe.
Quote from: Solar on July 26, 2015, 03:33:44 PM
Lets assume we are all judged when we die as to what our fate holds.
I have a theory on this, I don't believe God judges us so much on the evil we commit, rather the good we accomplished, where our hearts lied in the process.
Take a child born without the ability for empathy, he tortures everything he encounters, not because he's evil, but because he lacks the ability to understand it's wrong.
He dies at an early age, does God blame the child for his actions, or does he blame the parents for their inaction's?
Take a child in the Middle East raised to hate, threatened with his own and the lives of his family if he doesn't commit heinous acts, even though he tries to fight them, he fails in his efforts and kills hundreds.
Does he go to Hell? I just don't think so, I doubt it, I think we are judged on how much good we achieved in our short time on the planet, how much evil we averted in it's attempt to wrong others.
Yes, I believe there is a special place in Hell for many, I just don't think it's as cut and dried as we've been led to believe.
My God is a awesome loving God.
Quote from: walkstall on July 26, 2015, 03:49:23 PM
My God is a awesome loving God.
Yep, that's how I see it as well.
Romans chapter 2 says that God takes one's environment into account when judging.
It says that, if one has never had the opportunity to hear and obey the gospel,
then God will judge that one according to whether or not he obeyed his conscience.
At various places in the gospels, Jesus says that,
from those to whom much has been given, much is expected.
Still, one is far more likely to be saved BY the gospel than APART from the gospel
- which, by the way, is the only thing that can genuinely civilize the world.
Quote from: je_freedom on July 26, 2015, 08:57:24 PM
Romans chapter 2 says that God takes one's environment into account when judging.
It says that, if one has never had the opportunity to hear and obey the gospel,
then God will judge that one according to whether or not he obeyed his conscience.
At various places in the gospels, Jesus says that,
from those to whom much has been given, much is expected.
Still, one is far more likely to be saved BY the gospel than APART from the gospel
- which, by the way, is the only thing that can genuinely civilize the world.
Thank you, that lends credence to my beliefs.
hhhmmm..... I probably would not embrace this type of thinking that has been posted.
First of all, my God IS a loving God..... but He is also a JUST God.
I think we all believe that He has made himself known to man through His creation.... as Romans chapter one explains. Therefore, NO man has a legitimate excuse for denying God.
The real issue is ..... are we seeking God and willing to embrace Him wherever He meets us?
Will we come to Him on His terms? And what are His terms?
We ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. None of us can do enough good in this world to warrant acceptance into heaven. Entrance is NOT based upon our works. Entrance is based purely on the fact that we have trusted in the power of Jesus' atoning blood to "cover" our sins and present us as sinless to God. Only the blood of Jesus can cover our sins and make us acceptable to God and His heavenly kingdom.
So, what good are our good works? Scripture says they will all be burned up unless they were done through the power of the Holy Spirit which indwells Christians. So, if they are not burned up, what good are they?
There is a hierarchy in Heaven. Scripture says that we will reign with Him. What does that look like? Scripture doesn't tell us how it works but it alludes to the fact that there will be positions of power in Heaven. The most humble and obedient janitor on earth may be in a position of power in heaven. That is where our obedience on earth comes into play in heaven. We receive "crowns" or rewards for our faithfulness. You may think it doesn't matter to you about any rewards if you just manage to "get in", but I assure you that you will not be thinking that way once you arrive there!
Also, Jesus taught that there were degrees of punishment in hell. "Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees...... for you will be given a more severe punishment in that day."
Salvation and condemnation are not based upon our deeds. Our relationship with Jesus Christ is what determines our eternal destination. He is the door. We cannot get there without Him. Once there, our deeds are judged and we are treated accordingly.
So, don't get too hung up on doing good on earth until you have first received the saving blood of Jesus Christ in your heart. THEN your good deeds will account for something for eternity.
In the end, all humanity will be recompensed justly by God.
What about the heathen who never heard about God? Even the heathen knows about God (through creation) and can seek Him.
I know a Cambodian woman who told me that when she was young she knew that the source of flying birds and growing plants was not the deity that her mom worshipped with her idol of Buddha. She said she shook her fist in the air and said, "I don't know who you are but I want to know you."
Many years later, after the killing fields and death of her husband and children, she ended up in an internment camp in Indonesia with other boat people. That is where she met my family. We came to the camp every week and taught them about Jesus Christ. She tearfully accepted Jesus into her heart and was baptized. And she told us this story as her testimony.
My point is that God does reveal Himself to those who earnestly seek Him.
Exactly kroz. People create their own gods in their heads when they reject, or don't know Jesus or understand God's Plan for Man. We were born to be KINGS AND PRIESTS in His Kingdom when He returns.
Quote from: carlb on July 27, 2015, 02:56:03 PM
Exactly kroz. People create their own gods in their heads when they reject, or don't know Jesus or understand God's Plan for Man. We were born to be KINGS AND PRIESTS in His Kingdom when He returns.
Hmm... So that's what we are being good for. :rolleyes:
Quote from: walkstall on July 27, 2015, 03:35:12 PM
Hmm... So that's what we are being good for. :rolleyes:
No, not at all.
We are obedient because we have a heart to please God. We pray and ask the Spirit of God to direct our path and make us sensitive to the things that God would have us do. This is a daily effort to be pleasing to the God of our salvation. We don't do it for rewards per se. We do it because we have a loving relationship with our Father in heaven....... just as children on earth desire to please their fathers.
BTW, we cannot be good all the time. We continue to sin even as believers but the Spirit quickens our hearts to an awareness of our sin..... and we seek to do better.
Certainly in the Final Judgement, God will take into account each person's background, knowledge, and abilities. However, in the modern world there are darned few excuses left available for those who continue to deny the Lord.
My preacher talks repeatedly about "Do the right thing for the right reason." Doing good in order to "earn" salvation is doing the right thing, but for the wrong reason. It is simply not POSSIBLE for one to "EARN" their way to salvation. If it were, we would have no need for Christ to come to Earth as Man, sacrifice himself on the cross for our sins, and rise again to give (yes GIVE) us salvation.
Doing the right thing for the RIGHT reason means we become followers of Christ, and in doing so, we try our best (though, of course, imperfectly) to do as Christ commanded us - including treating our fellow human beings with love, compassion, generosity, etc. (ie: good works)
In short, we do good works, NOT to "earn" salvation, but because good works is what our Lord expects of us as His disciples. Good is done, as scripture advises us, with no expectation of reward, hence negating the idea of earning salvation. Good works comes from the desire to be as Christ like as we can be, out of our love for the Lord.
Well said, zewazir.
What does zewazir mean?
I do take exception with your "darned few excuses left for those who continue to deny God". There are absolutely NO excuses.
God also has a "sea of forgetfulness," for us to throw our past mistakes into. If He can forget them, we ought to be able to.
Quote from: red_dirt on July 27, 2015, 06:48:44 PM
God also has a "sea of forgetfulness," for us to throw our past mistakes into. If He can forget them, we ought to be able to.
I am sorry to take exception to that, red.
God does not forget. He is omniscient...... knows everything.
However, the blood of Christ covers our sins. God only sees Christ when he looks upon believers. We are totally baptized into Christ. We are purified by the blood of Christ. We have nothing to fear. We are sinless in the eyes of God.
Quote from: kroz on July 27, 2015, 06:33:32 PM
I do take exception with your "darned few excuses left for those who continue to deny God". There are absolutely NO excuses.
Mental deficiency?
Quote from: walkstall on July 27, 2015, 03:35:12 PM
Hmm... So that's what we are being good for. :rolleyes:
Why do you call yourself "good"? There is none good except your Father who is in heaven -- Jesus
I don't understand the condescending " eyeroll"
The REASON Man is born is to become literal Sons &Daughters of God. KINGS and PEIESTS in the Kingdom of God
A Son of God does "good" because he is taking on the nature of his Father in heaven because the Spirit of Christ dwells in him.
THAT is why a Christian "does good"
Quote from: kroz on July 27, 2015, 06:58:01 PM
I am sorry to take exception to that, red.
God does not forget. He is omniscient...... knows everything.
Hope I didn't give the impression our sins somehow slip God's mind.
http://www.egrc.net/articles/director/articles_director_0104.html
Quote from: carlb on July 27, 2015, 07:50:58 PM
Why do you call yourself "good"? There is none good except your Father who is in heaven -- Jesus
I don't understand the condescending " eyeroll"
The REASON Man is born is to become literal Sons &Daughters of God. KINGS and PEIESTS in the Kingdom of God
A Son of God does "good" because he is taking on the nature of his Father in heaven because the Spirit of Christ dwells in him.
THAT is why a Christian "does good"
QuoteWe were born to be KINGS AND PRIESTS in His Kingdom when He returns.
I don't call myself good. But IF we are all going to be "KINGS AND PRIESTS" who is going to be doing the light work.
I am working yet on how they got all the animals on Noah's Ark. Then to feed them for 40 days and night.
Quote from: walkstall on July 27, 2015, 09:23:03 PM
I am working yet on how they got all the animals on Noah's Ark. Then to feed them for 40 days and night.
Basic multidimensional physics. The outside does not necessarily have to be larger than the inside. :biggrin:
Quote from: zewazir on July 27, 2015, 10:02:59 PM
Basic multidimensional physics. The outside does not necessarily have to be larger than the inside. :biggrin:
Is that like multitasking? :lol:
Hmm... How does one keep the water out then? IF the out side is not larger then the inside. (https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1208.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc366%2FPlagueEleven%2FSmileys%2Fundecided.gif&hash=db88cdd595585472d8a4bb29597e2457b071fcb9)
There are many difficult teachings in the Scriptures. Some are meant to be discerned by mature believers because Paul calls them the "meat" of the word. Some people are only able to handle the milk of the word. The milk is the easy stuff..... so if my following post is offensive, go back to the milk and put the meat in the freezer for a while longer.
With that said I will relate some more difficult truth. One of the most difficult passages in Scripture is in Romans chapter nine. But Paul doesn't begin the book with this information. He spends eight chapters building up to what he is going to reveal in chapters nine through eleven. The remainder of the book (chapters 12-16) deals with living out the christian life. Romans is the most complete and thorough doctrinal book in the New Testament.
But in chapter nine he makes a stunning revelation. He says that something happened even BEFORE Rebekah gave birth to her twin sons Jacob and Esau. It says that God loved Jacob but he hated Esau.....before they were even born or done anything good or bad. Love and hate are not emotional feelings here. They are action verbs. He did something for one but not the other. What did He do? He determined their destiny.
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
So, does that sound fair?
Paul immediately says that there is NO injustice with God. And he goes on to quote God's words to Moses. "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Then he goes on to quote what God said about Pharaoh during the exodus from Egypt. "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
God has mercy on who He desires and hardens who He desires. The obvious question is.... so why does He find fault? For who can resist His will.
The next four verses are hard truth.......
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
Without making this post far too long, I will summarize by saying that it is God who has chosen His flock before He even laid the foundation of this earth. He had a Master plan for His creation and we should not challenge Him or His methods of graciously saving some souls.
Also see Ephesians 1: 3-7