Just a Theory from a Christian point of view.

[Rasputttin]

This is the Religion Forum.  IF you keep bring up politics and finance, I will move it.

I can't talk about Christianity, as I understand it, and not talk about political, economic and cultural issues of our times. To understand biblical prophecy of future times (I believe our time) is to know that politics and economics are two of the weapons used to deceive the world. To try and speak solely about one or the other is difficult because for me it is all connected.

As I stated earlier. All my political conclusions seem empty and just not good enough. We can all sit here and talk about the RINO's. It's all the RINO's fault. If we could just get rid of them all would be well. We can talk about the Tea Party. If we would all just vote Tea Party all would be well. The Left are all commies. If we could just get rid of the commies all would be well.

I've had those conversations six different ways to Sunday but they still leave me thinking there has to be something more going on. Something much deeper. A cause and effect that exists on a level beyond the news cycle. Our real problems are a cultural erosion. There wouldn't be so many America hating subversive leftists if they had grown in a culture that didn't make it seem cool to think that way. But that's just a begin point.

[taxed]

North Fulton County. Rep. Tom Price R-Ga

Same here.  I got my eye on you son...

[ORIGINAL WILLARD]

I can't talk about Christianity, as I understand it, and not talk about political, economic and cultural issues of our times. To understand biblical prophecy of future times (I believe our time) is to know that politics and economics are two of the weapons used to deceive the world. To try and speak solely about one or the other is difficult because for me it is all connected.

As I stated earlier. All my political conclusions seem empty and just not good enough. We can all sit here and talk about the RINO's. It's all the RINO's fault. If we could just get rid of them all would be well. We can talk about the Tea Party. If we would all just vote Tea Party all would be well. The Left are all commies. If we could just get rid of the commies all would be well.

I've had those conversations six different ways to Sunday but they still leave me thinking there has to be something more going on. Something much deeper. A cause and effect that exists on a level beyond the news cycle. Our real problems are a cultural erosion. There wouldn't be so many America hating subversive leftists if they had grown in a culture that didn't make it seem cool to think that way. But that's just a begin point.

I appreciate your willingness to be honest here. The "America hating subversive leftists" are now multiple generations deep, and will soon supersede the number of conservatives and Christians in America through attrition, alone. I believe your spiritual instincts are correct and serving you well. God's people have been given remarkable discernment, but many run from it. Amazing, God says: "Men perish for lack of knowledge"

I might ask if you're familiar with the scriptures in second Timothy, chapter three? I believe you will be staggered with the portent revealed in this body of scripture, yet heartened that God moved upon Paul to deliver these truths to Timothy so very long ago. God chose Paul to mentor Timothy, a young Prophet, and to stand him up in knowledge of truth, including this prophecy - which is immediately in front of us. Review these verses and decide for yourself if these manifestations of our current societal deformity is represented here. Please allow me to draw your attention to the significance of verses three, five, seven, twelve and thirteen. There is more here than meets the casual eye. All verses are salient, but I ask you to consider what is offered in those mentioned. Thanks.

Carl Marx stated his goal had two fronts. First, to destroy capitalism, then to "dethrone God"

Communism is thriving best in its natural habitat.....the American University!


2 Timothy 3 King James Version (KJV)

1 "This know also, that in the (last days) perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."


Best wishes.

[Rasputttin]

Same here.  I got my eye on you son...

Cool man. Glad to know ya. How long have you been living here? I was born in Atlanta but have been in N. Fulton since the spring of 1972 turning 4 years old that August. It was a great place to grow up and nothing like it is now. I miss the way it was but progress happens. So long as it's not progressive progress I'll stick around.

[Rasputttin]

I might ask if you're familiar with the scriptures in second Timothy, chapter three?

Yes I am very familiar. You should see the notes I've made in my bible along the edges of those verses.

I wish more people would allow themselves to be exposed to biblical prophecy. If they would take the time to look at it with an open mind,and with a good teacher. They would be amazed at how accurate it is, and how it is almost an exact account of what is now happening right before our eyes.

The most frustrating thing for me is how so many good people just don't want to hear it. Many of them Christian people. They think the bible is just some outdated book that doesn't apply to our modern world. They think it is a collection of stories written by people who had ulterior motives rather than the Word of God. To study it earnestly and sort through it with a desire to know it can leave you with no other understanding than it is the Word of God. There is just to many things written so long ago and yet proven right time and again. I'm not talking about vague prophecies like Nostradomous (misspelled probably) but very exact stuff concerning the realities of today's world.

[ORIGINAL WILLARD]

Yes I am very familiar. You should see the notes I've made in my bible along the edges of those verses.

I wish more people would allow themselves to be exposed to biblical prophecy. If they would take the time to look at it with an open mind,and with a good teacher. They would be amazed at how accurate it is, and how it is almost an exact account of what is now happening right before our eyes.

The most frustrating thing for me is how so many good people just don't want to hear it. Many of them Christian people. They think the bible is just some outdated book that doesn't apply to our modern world. They think it is a collection of stories written by people who had ulterior motives rather than the Word of God. To study it earnestly and sort through it with a desire to know it can leave you with no other understanding than it is the Word of God. There is just to many things written so long ago and yet proven right time and again. I'm not talking about vague prophecies like Nostradomous (misspelled probably) but very exact stuff concerning the realities of today's world.

Yes, like Psalm 22, written approximately 1120 years before Christ was even born. It is a prophetic foretelling of the crucifixion account of Jesus. King David was so loved by God, deemed to be a man after God's own heart. It would stand to reason why God chose him to write such tremendous prophecy all through the entire book of Psalms. I enjoy your posts, thanks!

[Darth Fife]

You ask great questions, to be sure! I could never provide greater answers to these questions than those given by God, himself. Contrary to my unfriendly poster-friend's summation, I'm not here for debate, or to impose my beliefs on anyone. I'm a simple sinner, saved by grace, thankful that God cares about the Earth and all who dwell herein. Most of all, I'm thankful that God calls upon every man to accept him for who he is, love him back, and join him in eternity as joint heirs with his son - in whom he is well pleased! It is never my choice, but I will honor any request to refrain from preemptively engaging another poster.

Nicely written. However, it does nothing to address those "great questions" I asked.

If we acknowledge the "dispensational" evolution of God's creation, it's easier to understand biblical text when it speaks to different time periods. Without delving into a study of a pre-Adamic period and subsequent dispensations leading to the present closing of the "dispensation of grace," otherwise known as the current "church age;" I'll only offer my best understanding of any given subject, as I'm constantly learning like everyone else.

Meaning no disrespect, but I classify this as the theological equivalent of "techno-babble" - big words, used well and cleverly, but they mean absolutely nothing. So, no. I don't 'acknowledge the "dispensational" evolution of God's creations. 

I love the Genesis scripture you're referencing and I'd like to examine it quickly. Genesis: chapter 1

26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

When considering what's actually being spoken in these verses, I hope you'll take pause to truly think.

In verse 26 it's clear there's a discussion between the three personages of the God-head (a plurality of three...known as the Trinity), whereupon the decision is announced that they have not only created us, but have given us "dominion" over a new world and essentially everything in it. I say, Love is the answer, because the Bible makes it clear that it is so. Only a loving God, of benevolent intent, would gift his newly created family with such immense blessing. God calls himself our Father because he is, and has proven himself to be. God recognizes his own Holiness, yet announces pleasure in his children (sinners all), in whom he created in his "own likeness."

There are some who say the "Trinity" is not Biblical in nature, but was a theological convention born of the Council of Nicea to explain how Jesus could be both God and man, and still have Christianity claim to be "mono-theistic.  The Trinity certainly is not even hinted at in the Old Testament, and several notable Christian sects reject the concept of the Trinity. 

You pose one of the great questions of the ages when asking why a divine God would institute "free agency" in mortal man.

Nice try at deflection, but that is not the "great question of the ages" that I posed. Allow me to refresh your memory:

How could a perfect, loving, omnipotent God, create something - in his own image and likeness - that is "inherently evil"?

I believe it's easier to conceptualize the answer than we pretend. If we're made in God's loving likeness, why wouldn't we share a shadowing of the capacity for love. Even better, this becomes evidence that God wants to be "loved back." We are "like unto him" in an array of attributes, but in a war with sin in our current fallen state as well. God called his family to be fruitful, and to multiply. This evidences the intent for future collaboration with man, who God so loves.  I want my children to love me in their own volition and free will, not because they're programmed to do so.

You are wandering off into the weeds here. Try to stay on point. It's okay... I'll wait...

I'd like to say to you that everyone has failed God. The great patriarchs of the Bible failed Him, The prophets failed Him, the Disciples failed Him, The Kings failed Him, The Judges failed Him and I fail Him daily. Only one sinless human being ever lived - the living, resurrected Son of God.

Failure to live up to the potential given us by God is one thing. It is a far differnent thing than being "inherently Evil".

It's easy for me to understand the reality of God's incredible love for all mankind. I have studied the word of God for the better part of my life. I'm strong in conviction because it's inescapable when reaching the point of comprehensive study, along with the decision to stop trying to do battle with him.:) I assure you, it has nothing to do with me being smart...I'm not! I allowed the world to stomp the morbid hell out of me when I eventually began to ask questions with an open mind.

Good for you. My question still awaits an answer.

In closing, please allow me to say this dispensation is closing at breathtaking speed. God has expended every energy of his servants to plead with our people to understand simple fundamentals of who we are, why are we here, where are we going....and why?

God will soon give the world what they're asking for - a world without Him in it! It's called the tribulation. Its a period marked by all but complete destruction of this Earth. There will come another.  John 5: 43 "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." The Bible makes it clear that a "King of fierce countenance" (Anti-Christ) will soon assume global authority, first in the name of peace. He will later reign terror upon the Earth with unspeakable cruelty.  Thank God, I won't be here.

Everyone enjoys offering John, 3:16. I like the following verses better.


16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."


There is much on our horizon to be "saved" from, and I want my brothers with me.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

So, what I'm getting here is that Jesus will have his Second Coming before I get an answer to my question.

So let it be written. So let it be done!



Darth

[Rasputttin]

Yes, like Psalm 22, written approximately 1120 years before Christ was even born. It is a prophetic foretelling of the crucifixion account of Jesus. King David was so loved by God, deemed to be a man after God's own heart. It would stand to reason why God chose him to write such tremendous prophecy all through the entire book of Psalms. I enjoy your posts, thanks!

Yes, exactly like Psalm 22. You're a newbie like me. Glad to meetcha.

[Solar]

Nicely written. However, it does nothing to address those "great questions" I asked.

Meaning no disrespect, but I classify this as the theological equivalent of "techno-babble" - big words, used well and cleverly, but they mean absolutely nothing. So, no. I don't 'acknowledge the "dispensational" evolution of God's creations. 

There are some who say the "Trinity" is not Biblical in nature, but was a theological convention born of the Council of Nicea to explain how Jesus could be both God and man, and still have Christianity claim to be "mono-theistic.  The Trinity certainly is not even hinted at in the Old Testament, and several notable Christian sects reject the concept of the Trinity. 

Nice try at deflection, but that is not the "great question of the ages" that I posed. Allow me to refresh your memory:

How could a perfect, loving, omnipotent God, create something - in his own image and likeness - that is "inherently evil"?


You are wandering off into the weeds here. Try to stay on point. It's okay... I'll wait...

Failure to live up to the potential given us by God is one thing. It is a far differnent thing than being "inherently Evil".

Good for you. My question still awaits an answer.

So, what I'm getting here is that Jesus will have his Second Coming before I get an answer to my question.

So let it be written. So let it be done!



Darth

He avoided mine as well.

[Rasputttin]

And, yet, the Bible says that God created man in his own image and likeness.

How could a perfect, loving, omnipotent God, create something - in his own image and likeness - that is "inherently evil"?

Or, having created something that, through no fault of God's own, became corrupted and "inherently evil" how could God allow such evil perversion of his divine creation to continue to exist?

Darth

You are missing the big point. This earth age is a battle between God and Satan. The whole purpose of this age is for us to choose a side. In the first earth age Satan rebelled against God and deceived many of the angels. Many of us were those angels. God could have destroyed them at that time but he chose to destroy the age instead. Those of us who did not rebel are what the bible calls "the elect". Those who did rebel have this age in the flesh to get it right.

I realize everything I am saying sounds contrary to the popular understanding of Christianity. Most Christians have no idea what I am talking about. Just as most Christians think Eve ate an apple. There is no apple in the book of Genesis.

The point is that the bible itself says that we as humans are evil. Born that way. We must overcome our natural insticts. The flesh is evil and we are in the flesh.

We are not created in God's image. It says that God and the angels said let us make man in OUR image. We are in the image we were in the first earth age. Meaning we look just as we did then. Angels do not have wings. That is another misconception. Every time angels appeared to man in the bible they looked just like us. They were spirit bodies but they did have bodies and they looked just as we look. Mana is called angel food,and it is,but it also fed the Israelites who wondered the desert with Moses for 40 years. In other words, the same thing that sustains an angelic body can sustain our flesh body. We are not that different.

Again. I realize everything I just said will be mocked and made fun of. That's OK,but I have to say it. You can't listen to the Joel Olsteins of the world a understand Christianity. The fact is human beings love fantsy. Be it scifi or porn they love fantasy. The fact is there is nothing more fantastic than the world we live in. You just have to open your eyes and see it.

[Darth Fife]

You are missing the big point. This earth age is a battle between God and Satan. The whole purpose of this age is for us to choose a side. In the first earth age Satan rebelled against God and deceived many of the angels. Many of us were those angels. God could have destroyed them at that time but he chose to destroy the age instead. Those of us who did not rebel are what the bible calls "the elect". Those who did rebel have this age in the flesh to get it right.

I assume you are talking of the fall of the angels and the subsequent story of Noah and the Great Flood.

I'm also assuming that you know that the story of Noah is not original to the Bible. It is a retelling of part of the Epic of Gilgamesh - which predate the Old Testament by 1000 to 1200 years!

I realize everything I am saying sounds contrary to the popular understanding of Christianity. Most Christians have no idea what I am talking about. Just as most Christians think Eve ate an apple. There is no apple in the book of Genesis.

This is true - it is the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It appears that The Garden of Eden story from Genesis was also "lifted" from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

The point is that the bible itself says that we as humans are evil. Born that way. We must overcome our natural instincts. The flesh is evil and we are in the flesh.

I think we need to get this out of the way right now. The Bible was written by men, as were all religious texts. Some of the men were good. Some were bad. And some were just plain stupid.

It contains some history, some philosophy, some parables and some out right fairy tales.  Sometimes it is trying to teach us a valuable lesson in morals and other times it is trying to impose the rule of a tyrannical leader upon the populace by claiming that what that leader says are the command of the Lord God!

And, at times, it is protesting the rule of a tyrannical leader!

It is not divine, nor is it even divinely inspired. It is a very, very human document.

We are not created in God's image. It says that God and the angels said let us make man in OUR image.

This semantic slight of hand doesn't work. Even assuming that angles existed at the creation of man, God said "OUR" image - he didn't say "your" (meaning the angels) image. Since he is reported to have said "Our" one can only assume that there is little difference between the "image and likeness" of God and his angels.

More likely, though, is the fact that the authors of Genesis use the common literary term known as the "royal plural" - a tradition nearly as ancient as the Bible itself. A king or sovereign would always refer to himself (or herself) in the plural. Since to the authors of the Bible, God would  be the ultimate royalty, it only makes sense that they would have him speak using the Royal Plural.

Of course, you know there are two radically different stories of creation and the the creation of man in Genesis, correct?

We are in the image we were in the first earth age. Meaning we look just as we did then. Angels do not have wings. That is another misconception. Every time angels appeared to man in the bible they looked just like us. They were spirit bodies but they did have bodies and they looked just as we look. Mana is called angel food,and it is,but it also fed the Israelites who wondered the desert with Moses for 40 years. In other words, the same thing that sustains an angelic body can sustain our flesh body. We are not that different.

This is interesting and well noted, but totally irrelevant to my question. 

Again. I realize everything I just said will be mocked and made fun of. That's OK,but I have to say it. You can't listen to the Joel Olsteins of the world a understand Christianity. The fact is human beings love fantasy. Be it scifi or porn they love fantasy. The fact is there is nothing more fantastic than the world we live in. You just have to open your eyes and see it.

Oh, I'm not here to make fun of anyone, and I certainly agree with you about Joel Olstein! And my eyes are open. I see the Bible and it's teachings for what they really are, not what some fakir in an Armani suit claims they are. I've not just studied the Bible, I've investigated where the Bible comes from.

Darth

[Rasputttin]

I assume you are talking of the fall of the angels and the subsequent story of Noah and the Great Flood.

Well, Not really. The time span between the first earth age fallen angels and the story of Noah is a very long time. Centuries even.

Look,there is nothing I can say that you can't rebute. I understand all your points. I have heard them my entire life. Belief is a matter of faith. I can not prove it and you can not disprove it. We can talk circles around each other and I doubt you want to do that any more than I do.

I truly do understand your angle on this topic but there is nothing I can say to dissuade you from that perspective. I have many points to make but it requires me to speak them to you. I hate typing and just really don't want to have to put forth the effort.

[Solar]

My teachings were that "Image", was not meant to be interpreted as visual, but rather image of god in manner of heart and soul.
In other words, God gave us the gift of life so we could experience love as only he knows it.
It's no accident Dog, is God spelled backward, so that even the most hideous among us could experience love.

[Rasputttin]

My teachings were that "Image", was not meant to be interpreted as visual, but rather image of god in manner of heart and soul.
In other words, God gave us the gift of life so we could experience love as only he knows it.
It's no accident Dog, is God spelled backward, so that even the most hideous among us could experience love.

All I can say is that our "teachings" are flawed. I grew up in the same society you did, Most Christian understanding is false. The entire story of the bible as presented by pop culture is wrong. Most people believe that Adam and Eve ate an apple from a tree and God "punished" them for eating an apple. It's all wrong.

I do not mean to talk down to anyone. My only goal is to correct the flawed understanding that is our current understanding. An understanding that is so entrenched in our pop culture that it is accepted without question.

[Solar]

All I can say is that our "teachings" are flawed. I grew up in the same society you did, Most Christian understanding is false. The entire story of the bible as presented by pop culture is wrong. Most people believe that Adam and Eve ate an apple from a tree and God "punished" them for eating an apple. It's all wrong.

I do not mean to talk down to anyone. My only goal is to correct the flawed understanding that is our current understanding. An understanding that is so entrenched in our pop culture that it is accepted without question.

No, you are much younger than I, so you are simply ignorant of history prior.
What makes you such an expert on what the interpretation of "Image" was at the time?