I am new to the board and am not sure how this will be received. I've come to understand that some conservatives aren't really Christians. A fact that always confounded me as I grew up in a conservative Christian home. I always thought conservative was just political Christianity. Stupid thought I guess but we were all once young and idealistic. It seems many conservatives are really just anti communist,which is a good thing. Nothing wrong with hating the commies, I do it everyday myself ,but there has to be more to it.
Don't get me wrong. I am far from a religious person. I hate religion and don't even attend a church. I spent my youth as a hellion and feel totally blessed that I came out of my youth in as good of shape as I did. It could've been much worse. I do study the bible and fellowship with other Christians. Just not in a church kinda way.
So much for the preface. Here's my point. I've been struggling for the longest time with the behavior of the republican party. I ask myself, why don't they fight more? Why don't they resist more? Why do they not represent those who elected them? Why do they seem paralyzed? It's as if they can't do anything. It's as if they are under a spell.
I believe we are living in the last days as predicted in the Bible. I realize that every generation has said such things but eventually one of them will be right and I think we are that generation. I have come to believe that the reason the republican party is so incompetent is because God does not want use putting our faith in them. Our faith belongs in God. Republicans can not save us. God has made them impotent.
Why else would they act as they do? Would you have me believe that they are all secretly working with democrats? That they are all closet leftist and it's a great conspiracy? It just doesn't make sense. As much as I don't like McConnell and the like I really don't believe they are closet leftists. I believe their is something bigger at work.
Bottom line, Pubs are nothing more than crony capitalists with no interest in doing what they we're elected to do, which is why TEA made the gains it did and why rino refer to us as the enemy.
Quote from: Rasputttin on November 23, 2014, 05:24:04 PM
I am new to the board and am not sure how this will be received. I've come to understand that some conservatives aren't really Christians. A fact that always confounded me as I grew up in a conservative Christian home. I always thought conservative was just political Christianity. Stupid thought I guess but we were all once young and idealistic. It seems many conservatives are really just anti communist,which is a good thing. Nothing wrong with hating the commies, I do it everyday myself ,but there has to be more to it.
Don't get me wrong. I am far from a religious person. I hate religion and don't even attend a church. I spent my youth as a hellion and feel totally blessed that I came out of my youth in as good of shape as I did. It could've been much worse. I do study the bible and fellowship with other Christians. Just not in a church kinda way.
So much for the preface. Here's my point. I've been struggling for the longest time with the behavior of the republican party. I ask myself, why don't they fight more? Why don't they resist more? Why do they not represent those who elected them? Why do they seem paralyzed? It's as if they can't do anything. It's as if they are under a spell.
I believe we are living in the last days as predicted in the Bible. I realize that every generation has said such things but eventually one of them will be right and I think we are that generation. I have come to believe that the reason the republican party is so incompetent is because God does not want use putting our faith in them. Our faith belongs in God. Republicans can not save us. God has made them impotent.
Why else would they act as they do? Would you have me believe that they are all secretly working with democrats? That they are all closet leftist and it's a great conspiracy? It just doesn't make sense. As much as I don't like McConnell and the like I really don't believe they are closet leftists. I believe their is something bigger at work.
Not all Christians are conservative and not all conservatives are Christian you don't have to be Christian to have a good moral judgment. :blink: :blink:
Quote from: Rasputttin on November 23, 2014, 05:24:04 PM
I am new to the board and am not sure how this will be received. I've come to understand that some conservatives aren't really Christians. A fact that always confounded me as I grew up in a conservative Christian home. I always thought conservative was just political Christianity. Stupid thought I guess but we were all once young and idealistic. It seems many conservatives are really just anti communist,which is a good thing. Nothing wrong with hating the commies, I do it everyday myself ,but there has to be more to it.
Don't get me wrong. I am far from a religious person. I hate religion and don't even attend a church. I spent my youth as a hellion and feel totally blessed that I came out of my youth in as good of shape as I did. It could've been much worse. I do study the bible and fellowship with other Christians. Just not in a church kinda way.
So much for the preface. Here's my point. I've been struggling for the longest time with the behavior of the republican party. I ask myself, why don't they fight more? Why don't they resist more? Why do they not represent those who elected them? Why do they seem paralyzed? It's as if they can't do anything. It's as if they are under a spell.
I believe we are living in the last days as predicted in the Bible. I realize that every generation has said such things but eventually one of them will be right and I think we are that generation. I have come to believe that the reason the republican party is so incompetent is because God does not want use putting our faith in them. Our faith belongs in God. Republicans can not save us. God has made them impotent.
Why else would they act as they do? Would you have me believe that they are all secretly working with democrats? That they are all closet leftist and it's a great conspiracy? It just doesn't make sense. As much as I don't like McConnell and the like I really don't believe they are closet leftists. I believe their is something bigger at work.
Welcome. Our faith does belong in God and he is in control. I have been told that we all have free will. That is a concept that I struggle with as God knows what our decisions are going to be and certainly he knows the outcome and future results of what was just handed to this country by Obama.
I have questioned why 534 members of Congress have been unable to stop the Marxist that we have in office. IMO there is very little difference between the two parties and yes, I believe that most members of Congress are of the same country club. The American people have failed to hold their elected officials accountable and secondly they would rather see the "party" win rather than elect the best candidate for the job. Most importantly many people have forgotten that "We the People" are the government and the government works for us. Our elected officials have become experts on blaming each other and making it appear that they are actually doing something. The only thing that most of them are doing is lining their own pockets and assuring themselves of a comfortable existence. There are lots of "conspiracies" out there, and for the most part unfortunately I don't feel that they are conspiracies at all, rather it is truly what is happening to this country.
I believe it has been the intent of this president to bring this country down and was "groomed" by wealthy individuals to do so. Most troubling has been the blatant attack on Christianity since this president has been in office and perhaps even more troubling is his disregard for Israel. Again, I haven't quite figured out why no one has stopped him and I have a feeling that unfortunately, we will have our answer sooner than later.
TEA has been our only hope, but ultimately our true hope lies with God.
Just a heads up. I'll be moving this to the religion forum but not until I finish dinner first. :laugh:
The whole idea that Socialist leaning Progressive Democrats & Constitutionalist Conservative Republicans are the same is hilarious ... :popcorn:
I'll take a stab at that.
You HAVE to have people of GOOD MORAL CHARACTER in positions of authority and leading the country. Such has always be associated by a belief in God and the principals in the bible. But the problem is the MARXISTS have succeeded in eroding religion and attacking the basis of morality...a loving HETEROSEXUAL family...to the point where a lot of politicians are I think inwardly afraid to espouse such principal.
These people are truly cowards, they have traded their morality for a few "alternative" votes. The problem with some of these RINO pubs is Their morality has eroded over the years by DC's politics and they have lost their way.
Now I'm not a real religious type of guy, I'm a Christian and a believer and I try to be a decent person (even though I've probably broken every one of the ten commandments some in multiples). But i shy away from organized religion especially the Catholic Church I was raised in (Much to the Chargrin of Mrs Billy a devout Catholic). In addition to a completely corrupted Clergy they have a decided leftist slant which I can't tolerate.
We need new blood, younger people of good moral fiber, Family Men and Women.
Quote from: redbeard on November 23, 2014, 05:46:35 PM
Not all Christians are conservative and not all conservatives are Christian you don't have to be Christian to have a good moral judgment. :blink: :blink:
I hear ya but that's also why I don't attend church. Our churches are polluted with PC teachings. I have a great suspicion of leftist Christians. It seems to me they worship the God of their making not the God of Abraham.
As for good moral judgement. Where did we get our morals from? Christianty was the foundation for western civilization. As much as secular Americans hate to admit it. They too came from this foundation. Many of them have the morals yet deny the God that gave them.
Quote from: Rasputttin on November 23, 2014, 06:05:30 PM
I hear ya but that's also why I don't attend church. Our churches are polluted with PC teachings. I have a great suspicion of leftist Christians. It seems to me they worship the God of their making not the God of Abraham.
As for good moral judgement. Where did we get our morals from? Christianty was the foundation for western civilization. As much as secular Americans hate to admit it. They too came from this foundation. Many of them have the morals yet deny the God that gave them.
PC Teachings (10 commandments / Old testament morals ? )
Quote from: Solar on November 23, 2014, 05:35:49 PM
Bottom line, Pubs are nothing more than crony capitalists with no interest in doing what they we're elected to do, which is why TEA made the gains it did and why rino refer to us as the enemy.
So do you think the Tea Party can save us. I am a Tea Bagger myself, as the left likes to call us,but I think our problems are so deep and we are so few.
Quote from: Gator Monroe on November 23, 2014, 05:57:03 PM
The whole idea that Socialist leaning Progressive Democrats & Constitutionalist Conservative Republicans are the same is hilarious ... :popcorn:
I agree. And that's my point. I don't believe republicans are conspiring with leftists to destroy this country. I believe they have been rendered impotent so we will put our faith where it belongs.
Callin g oneself a "Tea Bagger" is like a Lefty calling His/Herself a "Pinko" ( Very unusual) :popcorn:
Quote from: Rasputttin on November 23, 2014, 06:08:22 PM
So do you think the Tea Party can save us. I am a Tea Bagger myself, as the left likes to call us,but I think our problems are so deep and we are so few.
It's not a party, rater a shared ideal, an ideal that kicked ass in 2010 and this Bloody Nov Slaughter, bot historic.
Point is, the nation has finally awakened to the real threat of losing the country they always took for granted, though a bit late, they're fighting back in a huge way.
And yes, I see it recovering, though the battle hhas only just begun.
The "Winning" of the battle came from more folks FINALLY getting it ! (That there are two viable political Parties right now , so choosing the direction of America means picking ONE of the two for now)
This is an extremely interesting discussion. In the end, God is in control.
I also have wracked my brain trying to figure out why there hasn't been stronger opposition to such blatant destruction. I still struggle with why people elected this twice.
I still think the majority are opposed to actions in Washington. I believe credible candidates could win easily on that platform. I don'tunderstand why it is rejected.
The closest I can get is the country club theory. And perceived outsiders need not apply.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
DaisyJane
Quote from: Rasputttin on November 23, 2014, 05:24:04 PM
I am new to the board and am not sure how this will be received. I've come to understand that some conservatives aren't really Christians. A fact that always confounded me as I grew up in a conservative Christian home. I always thought conservative was just political Christianity. Stupid thought I guess but we were all once young and idealistic. It seems many conservatives are really just anti communist,which is a good thing. Nothing wrong with hating the commies, I do it everyday myself ,but there has to be more to it.
Don't get me wrong. I am far from a religious person. I hate religion and don't even attend a church. I spent my youth as a hellion and feel totally blessed that I came out of my youth in as good of shape as I did. It could've been much worse. I do study the bible and fellowship with other Christians. Just not in a church kinda way.
So much for the preface. Here's my point. I've been struggling for the longest time with the behavior of the republican party. I ask myself, why don't they fight more? Why don't they resist more? Why do they not represent those who elected them? Why do they seem paralyzed? It's as if they can't do anything. It's as if they are under a spell.
I believe we are living in the last days as predicted in the Bible. I realize that every generation has said such things but eventually one of them will be right and I think we are that generation. I have come to believe that the reason the republican party is so incompetent is because God does not want use putting our faith in them. Our faith belongs in God. Republicans can not save us. God has made them impotent.
Why else would they act as they do? Would you have me believe that they are all secretly working with democrats? That they are all closet leftist and it's a great conspiracy? It just doesn't make sense. As much as I don't like McConnell and the like I really don't believe they are closet leftists. I believe their is something bigger at work.
Welcome. I am much like you in my beliefs. While conservatism and Christianity are two different animals their core values of the two are very similar. However, they cannot be tied as one and the same. The GOP is not so much concerned with core conservative values as they are in staying in power. They will throw their conservative values overboard in a heart beat to retain their position. Therefore, I think it best to consider the two totally different, but they do sometime align.
Quote from: Gator Monroe on November 23, 2014, 06:14:03 PM
Callin g oneself a "Tea Bagger" is like a Lefty calling His/Herself a "Pinko" ( Very unusual) :popcorn:
BINGO!
No self respecting Conservative would ever refer to him/herself as a "Tea Bagger".
In fact, I've tried to have the term banned from the forums as well as anyone who uses it!
I think we have found us a troll!
Darth
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 24, 2014, 05:23:19 AM
BINGO!
No self respecting Conservative would ever refer to him/herself as a "Tea Bagger".
In fact, I've tried to have the term banned from the forums as well as anyone who uses it!
I think we have found us a troll!
Darth
Oh come on man. Lighten up. I just used the term because that's what they say. I was making light of their definition of us. I hate the way the left tries to control the language and define the world for the rest of us as much as anyone. I'm just not afraid of their words or terminology. Acting offended at everything is the leftist way.
Quote from: DaisyJane on November 23, 2014, 06:44:13 PM
This is an extremely interesting discussion. In the end, God is in control.
I also have wracked my brain trying to figure out why there hasn't been stronger opposition to such blatant destruction. I still struggle with why people elected this twice.
I still think the majority are opposed to actions in Washington. I believe credible candidates could win easily on that platform. I don'tunderstand why it is rejected.
The closest I can get is the country club theory. And perceived outsiders need not apply.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
DaisyJane
I don't disagree. As the title said, Just a theory from a Christian point of view. I was just thinking outside the box. I have analyzed the politics of this country frontwards and backwards and everything in between. I have laid in bed many nights running all kinds of possibilities through my head keeping me up to all hours. I have many conclusions that exist in the political context of a chess match but it never seems good enough or to make enough sense.
I just remember a verse in the bible about this age being a battle between God and satan. And another that says ,We do not battle against flesh and blood but against pricipalities in high places. So I just tried to think about our political realities from the perspective of those verses, and others. Just thinking outside the box. Sometimes people don't like that.
Quote from: Rasputttin on November 26, 2014, 07:45:12 PM
Oh come on man. Lighten up. I just used the term because that's what they say. I was making light of their definition of us. I hate the way the left tries to control the language and define the world for the rest of us as much as anyone. I'm just not afraid of their words or terminology. Acting offended at everything is the leftist way.
If you knew what the term refers to (and I'm pretty sure you do) you wouldn't be defending it's use, here or anywhere. More than simply the way Democrats refer to Tea Party members, it is common slang for a vulgar, disgusting sexual act.
Your either terribly naive or a troll.
Darth
Just posing a question. Not for myself, but for others to ponder.
If God created man in his image, could one not assume free will is a apart of that image?
Meaning, one grows from their mistakes, and if God gave us free will, then he knew quite well we were destined for failure, but he would also know, that given free will, we'd have the drive to overcome failure.
What I'm saying is, God is not interfering, rather observing, only because we're not near the end of times, nowhere near it.
He gave us free will to form our own destiny, whether it be tyrannical in nature, or freedom, it's all growth in the human experience, which is why I believe God gave us the gift of life, free will, and the ability to create our own destiny.
What we do with that destiny? Well, that's anyone's best guess, but the fact that we're still here speaks volumes considering every generation previous to our own has laid claim to the end of times.
Quote from: Solar on November 27, 2014, 05:57:00 AM
Just posing a question. Not for myself, but for others to ponder.
If God created man in his image, could one not assume free will is a apart of that image?
Meaning, one grows from their mistakes, and if God gave us free will, then he knew quite well we were destined for failure, but he would also know, that given free will, we'd have the drive to overcome failure.
What I'm saying is, God is not interfering, rather observing, only because we're not near the end of times, nowhere near it.
He gave us free will to form our own destiny, whether it be tyrannical in nature, or freedom, it's all growth in the human experience, which is why I believe God gave us the gift of life, free will, and the ability to create our own destiny.
What we do with that destiny? Well, that's anyone's best guess, but the fact that we're still here speaks volumes considering every generation previous to our own has laid claim to the end of times.
How ever you look at it. We are a great experiment in a great big beautiful universe. Each one of us are just a small pebble in the ripple of time. How we use that time will be our judgment for eternity. Just my way of thinking.
Quote from: Solar on November 27, 2014, 05:57:00 AM
Just posing a question. Not for myself, but for others to ponder.
If God created man in his image, could one not assume free will is a apart of that image?
Meaning, one grows from their mistakes, and if God gave us free will, then he knew quite well we were destined for failure, but he would also know, that given free will, we'd have the drive to overcome failure.
I tend to think along the lines of Mark Twain: In the beginning, God created man and man being a gentleman returned the favor.
To me, the true nature of God is unknowable. We have clues to go on, but it kind of like the proverbial 5 blind men trying to describe and elephant by each one touching a different part of the elephant.
QuoteWhat I'm saying is, God is not interfering, rather observing, only because we're not near the end of times, nowhere near it.
I'm not a big one on end time prophecies. During the time when the Bible was being formalized apocalyptic literature was very common - sort of the 1st century equivalent of our pulp sci-fi magazines. Some, obviously, got mixed in with the Bible and ended up being codified by the Council of Nicea.
Like pulp science fiction, they were never meant as predictions of the future, but as morality tales of their present times.
QuoteHe gave us free will to form our own destiny, whether it be tyrannical in nature, or freedom, it's all growth in the human experience, which is why I believe God gave us the gift of life, free will, and the ability to create our own destiny.
What we do with that destiny? Well, that's anyone's best guess, but the fact that we're still here speaks volumes considering every generation previous to our own has laid claim to the end of times.
And I'm sure countless generations to follow will claim that theirs is the "End Times".
One thing about predicting the end of the world. Do it long enough and one day you are bound to be correct!
:wink:
Darth
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 27, 2014, 09:41:27 AM
I tend to think along the lines of Mark Twain: In the beginning, God created man and man being a gentleman returned the favor.
To me, the true nature of God is unknowable. We have clues to go on, but it kind of like the proverbial 5 blind men trying to describe and elephant by each one touching a different part of the elephant.
I'm not a big one on end time prophecies. During the time when the Bible was being formalized apocalyptic literature was very common - sort of the 1st century equivalent of our pulp sci-fi magazines. Some, obviously, got mixed in with the Bible and ended up being codified by the Council of Nicea.
Like pulp science fiction, they were never meant as predictions of the future, but as morality tales of their present times.
And I'm sure countless generations to follow will claim that theirs is the "End Times".
One thing about predicting the end of the world. Do it long enough and one day you are bound to be correct!
:wink:
Darth
Kind of like global warming. A some point, nature will dictate change, but it's no different from a religion in believing the end times are near because of mans arrogance. Yet they don't see the arrogance in making unfounded predictions.
And they call us fanatical? :biggrin:
Quote from: Darth Fife on November 27, 2014, 03:14:41 AM
If you knew what the term refers to (and I'm pretty sure you do) you wouldn't be defending it's use, here or anywhere. More than simply the way Democrats refer to Tea Party members, it is common slang for a vulgar, disgusting sexual act.
Your either terribly naive or a troll.
Darth
Neither naive or a troll. Just not that uptight I guess. I know what the term means. Look at it this way. I sometimes call myself a "capitalist pig". I love capitalism and am not ashamed to admit it. I use the term just because that is what commies call us. It's my way of taking the term away from them. I'm certainly not going to apologize for it.
Besides,think about this. If the roles were reversed and it was the American left who were unhappy with the democrat party and they formed a third party and called themselves the Tea Party. I would've called them teabaggers too.
The really funny part is that it is leftists who actually perform the act of tea bagging. They are the real tea baggers. Leftists are always projecting on to others their sins. Sometimes you just have to laugh dude.
Quote from: Rasputttin on November 29, 2014, 09:22:41 PM
Neither naive or a troll. Just not that uptight I guess. I know what the term means. Look at it this way. I sometimes call myself a "capitalist pig". I love capitalism and am not ashamed to admit it. I use the term just because that is what commies call us. It's my way of taking the term away from them. I'm certainly not going to apologize for it.
Besides,think about this. If the roles were reversed and it was the American left who were unhappy with the democrat party and they formed a third party and called themselves the Tea Party. I would've called them teabaggers too.
The really funny part is that it is leftists who actually perform the act of tea bagging. They are the real tea baggers. Leftists are always projecting on to others their sins. Sometimes you just have to laugh dude.
Where are you from?
Quote from: Rasputttin on November 29, 2014, 09:22:41 PM
If the roles were reversed and it was the American left who were unhappy with the democrat party and they formed a third party and called themselves the Tea Party. I would've called them teabaggers too.
I call them occu-poopers. :laugh:
Thanks for great post! As revisionist historians tirelessly work to confound, distort and hinder, so do the scriptural propagandists. Interestingly, it is prominently the same fraternity in the rank and file who serve on both fronts, dedicated to wage war upon truth, itself. As many posters have referenced, the question of Republican pacifism, ineptness, and/or complicity remains on the table of discussion for real thinkers. While seemingly unexplainable, I believe the answer to be human sin, as illustrated in the entire counsel of God. Enemies of truth (wolves) can appear attractive in sheep's clothing and may appear motivated by different reasons, but the overarching empowerment is disobedience before God, period. The enemy is attacking Romans 13 in a deceptive stratagem of scriptural revisionism, attempting to further erode a proper understanding of how Christians are to respond to governance. This body of scripture is instructive and important to all of us, but is also important to the intelligentsia pressing a Marxist agenda - they must attempt to corrupt. Needless to say, American citizens are not "subjects," and are not called by God to render unto Caesar our children, or the minds of our children. Thanks for listening, please forgive lengthy post. I wish you well.
Proverbs 29: 2 "When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn." KJV.
Quote from: ORIGINAL WILLARD on December 01, 2014, 07:47:04 AM
Thanks for great post! As revisionist historians tirelessly work to confound, distort and hinder, so do the scriptural propagandists. Interestingly, it is prominently the same fraternity in the rank and file who serve on both fronts, dedicated to wage war upon truth, itself. As many posters have referenced, the question of Republican pacifism, ineptness, and/or complicity remains on the table of discussion for real thinkers. While seemingly unexplainable, I believe the answer to be human sin, as illustrated in the entire counsel of God. Enemies of truth (wolves) can appear attractive in sheep's clothing and may appear motivated by different reasons, but the overarching empowerment is disobedience before God, period. The enemy is attacking Romans 13 in a deceptive stratagem of scriptural revisionism, attempting to further erode a proper understanding of how Christians are to respond to governance. This body of scripture is instructive and important to all of us, but is also important to the intelligentsia pressing a Marxist agenda - they must attempt to corrupt. Needless to say, American citizens are not "subjects," and are not called by God to render unto Caesar our children, or the minds of our children. Thanks for listening, please forgive lengthy post. I wish you well.
Proverbs 29: 2 "When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn." KJV.
I have one word for you...
Paragraphs!
Learn what they are... use them... live them!
Darth
Though your lack of courtesy is in keeping with one who believes the nature of God is "unknowable," it earns no polite acquiescence from me. Perhaps when you master comprehensive texts, you'll find an interest in more substantive aspects of what others visit this site to discuss. It's even possible you'll mature from a fascination with paragraphs.
Quote from: ORIGINAL WILLARD on December 01, 2014, 05:15:19 PM
Though your lack of courtesy is in keeping with one who believes the nature of God is "unknowable," it earns no polite acquiescence from me. Perhaps when you master comprehensive texts, you'll find an interest in more substantive aspects of what others visit this site to discuss. It's even possible you'll mature from a fascination with paragraphs.
I know your new but please use the quote function on this board.
Quote from: walkstall on December 01, 2014, 05:41:40 PM
I know your new but please use the quote function on this board.
I shall do so...thanks for help.
Quote from: ORIGINAL WILLARD on December 01, 2014, 05:15:19 PM
Though your lack of courtesy is in keeping with one who believes the nature of God is "unknowable," it earns no polite acquiescence from me. Perhaps when you master comprehensive texts, you'll find an interest in more substantive aspects of what others visit this site to discuss. It's even possible you'll mature from a fascination with paragraphs.
I've never been accused of being polite.
Much the same as you will never be accused of being humble.
The purpose of posting on a forum is to communicate your ideas to visitors of that forum. Long, run on sentences and paragraphs that never seem to end make it difficult for your readers to understand what you are trying to say. If the written word is to be your chosen tool for communicating with others, it helps if you have some basic understanding of how to best use that tool.
Otherwise, you are wasting your time.
Darth
Quote from: Darth Fife on December 02, 2014, 02:34:16 AM
I've never been accused of being polite.
Much the same as you will never be accused of being humble.
The purpose of posting on a forum is to communicate your ideas to visitors of that forum. Long, run on sentences and paragraphs that never seem to end make it difficult for your readers to understand what you are trying to say. If the written word is to be your chosen tool for communicating with others, it helps if you have some basic understanding of how to best use that tool.
Otherwise, you are wasting your time.
Darth
My posting manner is prominently one of humility as it relates to interacting with other posters. My first post clearly exemplifies this practice. I offered acknowledgement and apology regarding a "lengthy" post to the intended recipient, thanked him for listening and wished him well. I believe this level of ambassadorship speaks adequately to the attributes of good will, honor and my posting manner. Conversely, your first insult delivered a childish edict, framed in petulance. You need to rethink your notion of who hasn't been "humble."
I value your edict no more than when I first recognized your apparent deficits. You are obviously more impressed with yourself than I am.....I suggest you simply avoid reading my posts if your struggling to understand them.
Quote from: ORIGINAL WILLARD on December 02, 2014, 09:49:37 AM
My posting manner is prominently one of humility as it relates to interacting with other posters. My first post clearly exemplifies this practice. I offered acknowledgement and apology regarding a "lengthy" post to the intended recipient, thanked him for listening and wished him well. I believe this level of ambassadorship speaks adequately to the attributes of good will, honor and my posting manner. Conversely, your first insult delivered a childish edict, framed in petulance. You need to rethink your notion of who hasn't been "humble."
I value your edict no more than when I first recognized your apparent deficits. You are obviously more impressed with yourself than I am.....I suggest you simply avoid reading my posts if your struggling to understand them.
You, my friend, apparently have a very thin skin. Your response here belies your claim of "humility".
If I may offer some friendly advice, lighten up and stop taking yourself so damned seriously!
Darth
Quote from: Rasputttin on November 23, 2014, 05:24:04 PM
I am new to the board and am not sure how this will be received. I've come to understand that some conservatives aren't really Christians. A fact that always confounded me as I grew up in a conservative Christian home. I always thought conservative was just political Christianity. Stupid thought I guess but we were all once young and idealistic. It seems many conservatives are really just anti communist,which is a good thing. Nothing wrong with hating the commies, I do it everyday myself ,but there has to be more to it.
Don't get me wrong. I am far from a religious person. I hate religion and don't even attend a church. I spent my youth as a hellion and feel totally blessed that I came out of my youth in as good of shape as I did. It could've been much worse. I do study the bible and fellowship with other Christians. Just not in a church kinda way.
So much for the preface. Here's my point. I've been struggling for the longest time with the behavior of the republican party. I ask myself, why don't they fight more? Why don't they resist more? Why do they not represent those who elected them? Why do they seem paralyzed? It's as if they can't do anything. It's as if they are under a spell.
I believe we are living in the last days as predicted in the Bible. I realize that every generation has said such things but eventually one of them will be right and I think we are that generation. I have come to believe that the reason the republican party is so incompetent is because God does not want use putting our faith in them. Our faith belongs in God. Republicans can not save us. God has made them impotent.
Why else would they act as they do? Would you have me believe that they are all secretly working with democrats? That they are all closet leftist and it's a great conspiracy? It just doesn't make sense. As much as I don't like McConnell and the like I really don't believe they are closet leftists. I believe their is something bigger at work.
Thanks for your thoughts! You appear to be in great earnest regarding the question of America's survival...so am I. I appreciate your willingness to examine the issues you've placed on the table.
All of the points that you've made, and made well, would comprise an adequate theater of analysis if the causative elements were contained therein..they are not! Americans wallow in frustration because they look for answers that are not apparent where they're looking for them!
If people approach this universe of thought while convinced causation lies in "party" politics, inadvertent legislative expenditure, economic ineptness, poor math skills, who's up or down in 2016, stupidity of governance or even ignorance of history....they will only remain frustrated.
I do not seek to entertain myself with this commentary, nor do I wish to offend you in any way, Rather, your considerations remind me of a much earlier time when I also anguished in ponderment.
For multiplied decades the "Federal Reserve" (a private bank) has been allowed and encouraged to print U.S. Currency (strongest in the world - at least heretofore) in breathtaking amounts, to be loaned to hundreds of governments and "other interests" throughout the world. This hypothetical money, costing nothing, brought breathtaking interest yields, and still does, in earnings unimaginable.
America is bankrupt..and has been, to the point of vulgarity! It would be impossible for America to recover without immediate and critical interruptive measures which we know our nation hasn't the stomach for, even if the masses COULD comprehend the scope and gravity of our peril!
Simply put, a global banking mafia now controls enough of our government to prevent escape. This is possible for people to understand with reasonable study, not that it's very palatable research. It is very dark subject matter and requires a stomach for the truth.
Much of my research is very dry and consists of examining global and domestic documents, largely from domestic and foreign government websites.
I encourage others to learn while they still have the opportunity. At this point in history, it is no longer plausible, possible or constructive to pretend America's peril is attributable to a collective lack of understanding on the part of those tirelessly working in concert to these ends.
The international and domestic control mechanisms have been constructed and prepared for an intentional and very well planned destruction of the American Economy. America would already be in chaos and anarchy if the Federal reserve wasn't artificially propping us up with hypothetical money. When the decision is made, the plug will be pulled.
Remember, when less than honorable men are in charge of the money, the books are cooked until they look pretty good. Most important to realize, hypothetical assets simply disappear when they didn't really exist in the first place. Debt is always very real - and so is slavery!
Finally, a global banking mafia has learned well from the U.S. Federal reserve and its lawless practices. A new and improved (Global Fed) will soon supersede this entity which will facilitate the global enslavement of humanity. A glimpse of this creature is visible in a reading of Pope Benedict's 2009 encyclical wherein he calls for a one-world government and a centralized back...to be given "teeth of enforcement." This scheme was conceived in BrettonWood, New Hampshire, at the George Washington Hotel, 1944. Interestingly, John Maynard Keynes was present and addressed the assembly over the course of several days. Note: It was at this very convention whereupon the World Bank, International Monetary Fund and "anything goes economics" were created - historical fact!
Amassed wealth has been laundered and continues to move into the "international banking cartel" currently under shadowy guidance of entities including the world bank and the international monetary fund. As a side-note, it's been in mainstream news that these entities have bailed out Ireland, Greece, Spain, Italy and other member nations in the failed Socialist/Globalism model - the European Union.
Remember, 1 Timothy 6:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 "For the (love of) money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with (many sorrows)."
I believe we are at the advent of the: "beginning of sorrows," something definitely bigger! The hellish architecture of global tyranny is now in place. God has mercifully given us the ability to understand exactly what will happen.
Best wishes to you.
Quote from: Darth Fife on December 02, 2014, 10:27:38 AM
You, my friend, apparently have a very thin skin. Your response here belies your claim of "humility".
If I may offer some friendly advice, lighten up and stop taking yourself so damned seriously!
Darth
Sir, I would truly be grateful for an opportunity to earn your friendship. Perhaps it isn't possible, but I'd appreciate the opportunity if you might extend the grace. I do not seek enemies. Rather, I promise to extend every measure of decency and kindness until you decide to make it impossible. Please be assured I'm not starry-eyed over the issue of respect. I believe true respect must be earned, and is not a casual default to a stupid social nuance! I much prefer the enjoyment of knowing you to the extent you might remain comfortable. Thanks.
This is the Religion Forum. IF you keep bring up politics and finance, I will move it.
Quote from: walkstall on December 02, 2014, 12:40:51 PM
This is the Religion Forum. IF you keep bring up politics and finance, I will move it.
As is evident, even by casual reading, the import of matters of money used in my post are based upon prophetic biblical teaching.
Money, (finances) and stewardship of it is the main subject of nearly half of the parables Jesus told. In addition, one in every seven verses in the New Testament deals with this topic. The Bible offers 500 verses on prayer, fewer than 500 verses on faith, and more than 2,000 verses on money.
In fact, 15 percent of everything Jesus ever taught was on the topic of money and possessions-more than His teachings on heaven and hell combined.
As taught in the biblical narrative, the "love of money" is the foundational malignancy which brings God's second coming upon the Earth.
I sincerely ask you to reconsider your position.
Thanks.
Quote from: ORIGINAL WILLARD on December 02, 2014, 01:03:49 PM
As is evident, even by casual reading, the import of matters of money used in my post are based upon prophetic biblical teaching.
Money, (finances) and stewardship of it is the main subject of nearly half of the parables Jesus told. In addition, one in every seven verses in the New Testament deals with this topic. The Bible offers 500 verses on prayer, fewer than 500 verses on faith, and more than 2,000 verses on money.
In fact, 15 percent of everything Jesus ever taught was on the topic of money and possessions-more than His teachings on heaven and hell combined.
As taught in the biblical narrative, the "love of money" is the foundational malignancy which brings God's second coming upon the Earth.
I sincerely ask you to reconsider your position.
Thanks.
Here it comes.
Quote from: ORIGINAL WILLARD on December 02, 2014, 01:03:49 PM
I sincerely ask you to reconsider your position.
Thanks.
Nope. Finance discussions belong solely in the financial forum.
This is strictly for religion. So simply separate the two, it's possible.
Thanks.
Quote from: Solar on December 02, 2014, 01:57:05 PM
Nope. Finance discussions belong solely in the financial forum.
This is strictly for religion. So simply separate the two, it's possible.
Thanks.
According to your contention, help me understand where tithing might appropriately be discussed, given its financial implications. One might ask how it might be possible to discuss family finances for a Christian family ascribing to biblical principles of monetary stewardship. I ask you to explain where one might discuss varying methods of securing ministerial finances relating to church planning, or securing building funds in keeping with biblical teaching. I would also appreciate an explanation in this context regarding the array of financial decisions pastors and ministerial committees must face on a daily basis. Financial and budgetary realities involving community outreach, missionary funding and food-bank management alone, are complex and demanding components of religion in America.
My "religion" is based upon the teachings of the Holy Bible. To be clear, I refer to the Bible of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, including thirteen epistles written by Paul. The Bible offers 500 verses on prayer, less than 500 on faith and more than 2000 (two thousand) verses on "money."
Mathew 21:12 reveals God's disdain for ungodly commerce whereupon he ejected the "moneychangers" from the temple. Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."...
I believe we are better served by honestly discussing ungodly management of money (power) in the hands of tyrants and wicked kings, contrasted to money (power) held by benevolent servants of God. The Bible is replete with this very example.
Remember, God answers one of the great questions of the ages in 1st Timothy, Chapter six, verse 10:
9 "But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness."
Though verse 10 is powerful and declarative; the preceding verse is profoundly explanatory, giving context to the monolithic relevance to "money," and all things attendant thereto. The nexus between money and man's decision to serve or reject God are entirely self evident and established by Him alone! The wisdom of God is evidenced here as men usually use "money" to "finance" sinful conduct, particularly as an ongoing course.
In short, we should accept this liberty to discuss openly what God, himself declares to be the very genesis of ALL evil. I believe this is about as religious, as a subject matter for discussion, it could ever get.
Thanks for allowing me to share my thoughts, I hope you do the same.
Quote from: ORIGINAL WILLARD on December 03, 2014, 02:00:01 PM
According to your contention, help me understand where tithing might appropriately be discussed, given its financial implications. One might ask how it might be possible to discuss family finances for a Christian family ascribing to biblical principles of monetary stewardship. I ask you to explain where one might discuss varying methods of securing ministerial finances relating to church planning, or securing building funds in keeping with biblical teaching. I would also appreciate an explanation in this context regarding the array of financial decisions pastors and ministerial committees must face on a daily basis. Financial and budgetary realities involving community outreach, missionary funding and food-bank management alone, are complex and demanding components of religion in America.
My "religion" is based upon the teachings of the Holy Bible. To be clear, I refer to the Bible of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, including thirteen epistles written by Paul. The Bible offers 500 verses on prayer, less than 500 on faith and more than 2000 (two thousand) verses on "money."
Mathew 21:12 reveals God's disdain for ungodly commerce whereupon he ejected the "moneychangers" from the temple. Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."...
I believe we are better served by honestly discussing ungodly management of money (power) in the hands of tyrants and wicked kings, contrasted to money (power) held by benevolent servants of God. The Bible is replete with this very example.
Remember, God answers one of the great questions of the ages in 1st Timothy, Chapter six, verse 10:
9 "But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness."
Though verse 10 is powerful and declarative; the preceding verse is profoundly explanatory, giving context to the monolithic relevance to "money," and all things attendant thereto. The nexus between money and man's decision to serve or reject God are entirely self evident and established by Him alone! The wisdom of God is evidenced here as men usually use "money" to "finance" sinful conduct, particularly as an ongoing course.
In short, we should accept this liberty to discuss openly what God, himself declares to be the very genesis of ALL evil. I believe this is about as religious, as a subject matter for discussion, it could ever get.
Thanks for allowing me to share my thoughts, I hope you do the same.
What is your opinion of capitalism?
Quote from: supsalemgr on December 03, 2014, 02:07:46 PM
What is your opinion of capitalism?
Greetings, I'm an ardent advocate for the defense of capitalism. As you must be aware, cultural Marxism in America now has commerce, industry, entrepreneurship and our country's very survival on the ropes. It is my opinion that most Americans don't even realize we're in the throes of a Marxist revolution. I might add it's my belief this is well orchestrated by the America hater in the Oval Office. A short answer....I'm being summoned to cook for a group. Thanks for your post.
Quote from: ORIGINAL WILLARD on December 03, 2014, 02:00:01 PM
According to your contention, help me understand where tithing might appropriately be discussed, given its financial implications. One might ask how it might be possible to discuss family finances for a Christian family ascribing to biblical principles of monetary stewardship. I ask you to explain where one might discuss varying methods of securing ministerial finances relating to church planning, or securing building funds in keeping with biblical teaching. I would also appreciate an explanation in this context regarding the array of financial decisions pastors and ministerial committees must face on a daily basis. Financial and budgetary realities involving community outreach, missionary funding and food-bank management alone, are complex and demanding components of religion in America.
My "religion" is based upon the teachings of the Holy Bible. To be clear, I refer to the Bible of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, including thirteen epistles written by Paul. The Bible offers 500 verses on prayer, less than 500 on faith and more than 2000 (two thousand) verses on "money."
Mathew 21:12 reveals God's disdain for ungodly commerce whereupon he ejected the "moneychangers" from the temple. Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."...
I believe we are better served by honestly discussing ungodly management of money (power) in the hands of tyrants and wicked kings, contrasted to money (power) held by benevolent servants of God. The Bible is replete with this very example.
Remember, God answers one of the great questions of the ages in 1st Timothy, Chapter six, verse 10:
9 "But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness."
Though verse 10 is powerful and declarative; the preceding verse is profoundly explanatory, giving context to the monolithic relevance to "money," and all things attendant thereto. The nexus between money and man's decision to serve or reject God are entirely self evident and established by Him alone! The wisdom of God is evidenced here as men usually use "money" to "finance" sinful conduct, particularly as an ongoing course.
In short, we should accept this liberty to discuss openly what God, himself declares to be the very genesis of ALL evil. I believe this is about as religious, as a subject matter for discussion, it could ever get.
Thanks for allowing me to share my thoughts, I hope you do the same.
Maybe in your world you see money as the root of all evil. I don't, it's merely a source for barter, be it fiat, it's still an agreed upon system.
How you conduct yourself is your own business.
Don't waste your time with these ridiculous lengthy posts, I have no interest in your quotes on the matter. Like I said, money, regardless of whether you're exchanging food for labor, or sex, for rent it's still barter.
If I want something and someone is willing to trade me for it, that's my business.
Question is, are you under some illusion that there should be a law limiting ones wealth?
Quote from: Solar on December 03, 2014, 02:50:38 PM
Maybe in your world you see money as the root of all evil. I don't, it's merely a source for barter, be it fiat, it's still an agreed upon system.
How you conduct yourself is your own business.
Don't waste your time with these ridiculous lengthy posts, I have no interest in your quotes on the matter. Like I said, money, regardless of whether you're exchanging food for labor, or sex, for rent it's still barter.
If I want something and someone is willing to trade me for it, that's my business.
Question is, are you under some illusion that there should be a law limiting ones wealth?
I believe you misunderstood my position. The biblical narrative flat-out encourages wealth, period.....so do I! God issues a warning and a truth - The (LOVE) of money is the root of all evil....not (money)! Re-read the verses!
The Old and New Testament corroborate this principle. Many of God's servants were intensely wealthy.
God does not obstruct the gain of wealth, but opposes the ""love" of it. The context is given in the adjacent verses. Please review the preceding verse (verse 9) and subsequent verse (verse 11).
9.) "But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10.) For the (love of money) is the root of all evil: (which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.)
11.) But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness."
Please forgive any lack of clarity on my part. God does not oppose wealth, even substantial personal wealth. The (LOVE OF MONEY) is what God considers the (ROOT) of evil.
This is too important to miss, please review these verses carefully. There is a distinction which presents an enormous difference and we must understand it.
As you see in verse 10, God qualifies his contention. If in the pursuit of wealth and success, man fails to recognize God's providence, and that everything in the earth was created by Him, then he invites the failure of building a life without God in it and refusing to recognize God's rightful Kingship.
I can see how I may have miscommunicated this material. I will attempt improvement.
You characterize my quotes as "ridiculous," and maybe mine are. However, if you had properly read the biblical verses properly, there would've been no missing it, and there would've been no misunderstanding.
Deception is free, but so is Truth!
Thanks for your post.
Quote from: ORIGINAL WILLARD on December 03, 2014, 03:41:12 PM
I believe you misunderstood my position. The biblical narrative flat-out encourages wealth, period.....so do I! God issues a warning and a truth - The (LOVE) of money is the root of all evil....not (money)! Re-read the verses!
The Old and New Testament corroborate this principle. Many of God's servants were intensely wealthy.
God does not obstruct the gain of wealth, but opposes the ""love" of it. The context is given in the adjacent verses. Please review the preceding verse (verse 9) and subsequent verse (verse 11).
9.) "But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10.) For the (love of money) is the root of all evil: (which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.)
11.) But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness."
Please forgive any lack of clarity on my part. God does not oppose wealth, even substantial personal wealth. The (LOVE OF MONEY) is what God considers the (ROOT) of evil.
This is too important to miss, please review these verses carefully. There is a distinction which presents an enormous difference and we must understand it.
As you see in verse 10, God qualifies his contention. If in the pursuit of wealth and success, man fails to recognize God's providence, and that everything in the earth was created by Him, then he invites the failure of building a life without God in it and refusing to recognize God's rightful Kingship.
I can see how I may have miscommunicated this material. I will attempt improvement.
You characterize my quotes as "ridiculous," and maybe mine are. However, if you had properly read the biblical verses properly, there would've been no missing it, and there would've been no misunderstanding.
Deception is free, but so is Truth!
Thanks for your post.
All that, and you still didn't answer my question.
Quote from: Solar on December 03, 2014, 04:05:11 PM
All that, and you still didn't answer my question.
Unless I missed it, the only question you posed was as follows: "Question is, are you under some illusion that there should be a law limiting ones wealth?"
I believe I answered this in the first paragraph of my response, post no.#10:
ANSWER: "I believe you misunderstood my position. The biblical narrative flat-out encourages wealth, period.....so do I! God issues a warning and a truth - The (LOVE) of money is the root of all evil....not (money)! Re-read the verses!"
The phrase - "SO DO I" is salient here!
Quote from: ORIGINAL WILLARD on December 03, 2014, 04:43:27 PM
Unless I missed it, the only question you posed was as follows: "Question is, are you under some illusion that there should be a law limiting ones wealth?"
I believe I answered this in the first paragraph of my response, post no.#10:
ANSWER: "I believe you misunderstood my position. The biblical narrative flat-out encourages wealth, period.....so do I! God issues a warning and a truth - The (LOVE) of money is the root of all evil....not (money)! Re-read the verses!"
The phrase - "SO DO I" is salient here!
First off, I told you not to bother posting biblical quotes, I am more interested in what you have to say, not your interpretation of the bible.
So no, you didn't answer my question, and now you have.
Which raises another. Is it your point, that the US is inherently evil because a few have manipulated our system of barter, or that a chosen group that benefits from this action are?
Don't get me wrong, the whole fiat currency issue is destroying the country and we have Nixon to thank for it.
But is it your contention that God will punish the nation over the actions of a few?
Quote from: Solar on December 03, 2014, 07:07:01 PM
First off, I told you not to bother posting biblical quotes, I am more interested in what you have to say, not your interpretation of the bible.
So no, you didn't answer my question, and now you have.
Which raises another. Is it your point, that the US is inherently evil because a few have manipulated our system of barter, or that a chosen group that benefits from this action are?
Don't get me wrong, the whole fiat currency issue is destroying the country and we have Nixon to thank for it.
But is it your contention that God will punish the nation over the actions of a few?
I would place it earlier than Nixon! The downhill slide, in my not so humble opinion, began with Wilson and the establishment of the Federal Reserve.
Darth
Quote from: Darth Fife on December 03, 2014, 07:24:52 PM
I would place it earlier than Nixon! The downhill slide, in my not so humble opinion, began with Wilson and the establishment of the Federal Reserve.
Darth
Oh, no doubt, but I was noting the ability to print endless amounts of fiat cash with nothing to back it, but more useless fiat cash.
At least gold held us in check to a point.
Quote from: Solar on December 03, 2014, 07:07:01 PM
First off, I told you not to bother posting biblical quotes, I am more interested in what you have to say, not your interpretation of the bible.
So no, you didn't answer my question, and now you have.
Which raises another. Is it your point, that the US is inherently evil because a few have manipulated our system of barter, or that a chosen group that benefits from this action are?
Don't get me wrong, the whole fiat currency issue is destroying the country and we have Nixon to thank for it.
But is it your contention that God will punish the nation over the actions of a few?
Your post is fascinating! You've requested that I "not to bother posting biblical posts," indicating you're not interested in my interpretation of the Bible, yet requested that I answer two common theological questions....all in the very same post.
Respectfully, do you fail to see a contradiction here?
My answer to the first question is that Man is inherently evil, born into a fallen state of corruption in this dispensation.
My answer to the second question is one I don't like very much, but all known history and human nature bears its truth. This question is an area of thought deserving of reverence, study and understanding beyond what any of us could bring to bear on this board. An incomprehensive delving into this subject might be considered vulgar, absent due diligence to God's much deserved respect.
You've posed the question of whether "God will punish the nation over the actions of a few." I carry a dislike for offering my thoughts without presenting authoritative verses, but you've requested this to be so. First of All, our creator does what he will. According to the biblical narrative, God's rebuke comes to individuals, families, churches, tribes and nations according to his sovereign will. We can see that God's favor and blessing can be directed in like fashion. A more interesting aspect of this is how "corporate judgment" is valued in God's spiritual economy.
The most heralded example of corporate judgment is the Adamic fall, where all of mankind would fall under judgment for the sins of another. While this remains ostensibly true, I believe this was more than punitive action, but a remedial correction so as to protect a progeny of future propagation of God's intended lineage.
It is my fervent belief that God institutionalized the doctrine of "my brother's keeper" into the agency of Holy governance. Therefore, predicated on this canonic truth, there is no such thing as "victimless sin."
Imagine, God ordained Jeremiah a prophet, before he was even born. Jeremiah was given to the world as a "prophet unto the nations," in an act of marvelous mercy towards us. Additionally, the entire book of Jeremiah was dedicated to the purpose of warning every dispensation of the profound dangers of "national sin," where a nation can "forget their God," committing open and willful sin before his eyes. Such nations are properly warned of this peril and are subject to corporate judgment and complete destruction.
Jeremiah 1 King James Version (KJV) The salient verse being verse (5)
1 "The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin:
2 To whom the word of the Lord came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign.
3 It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.
4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
6 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.
7 But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.
8 Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the Lord.
9 Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.
10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.
Best wishes.
Quote from: ORIGINAL WILLARD on December 04, 2014, 06:28:41 AM
Your post is fascinating! You've requested that I "not to bother posting biblical posts," indicating you're not interested in my interpretation of the Bible, yet requested that I answer two common theological questions....all in the very same post.
Respectfully, do you fail to see a contradiction here?
And you fail to understand, I don't give a damn about quotes, rather your opinion, not one you've been programmed to give.
QuoteMy answer to the first question is that Man is inherently evil, born into a fallen state of corruption in this dispensation.
And you'b be wrong, man is born a blank slate in majority.
QuoteMy answer to the second question is one I don't like very much, but all known history and human nature bears its truth. This question is an area of thought deserving of reverence, study and understanding beyond what any of us could bring to bear on this board. An incomprehensive delving into this subject might be considered vulgar, absent due diligence to God's much deserved respect.
Mans nature is to conquer his surroundings, as is Gods way of a survival mechanism.
That survival of the fittest body or mind is wrong. Are you claiming God erred in doing so?
QuoteYou've posed the question of whether "God will punish the nation over the actions of a few." I carry a dislike for offering my thoughts without presenting authoritative verses, but you've requested this to be so. First of All, our creator does what he will. According to the biblical narrative, God's rebuke comes to individuals, families, churches, tribes and nations according to his sovereign will. We can see that God's favor and blessing can be directed in like fashion. A more interesting aspect of this is how "corporate judgment" is valued in God's spiritual economy.
So you have no answer.
QuoteThe most heralded example of corporate judgment is the Adamic fall, where all of mankind would fall under judgment for the sins of another. While this remains ostensibly true, I believe this was more than punitive action, but a remedial correction so as to protect a progeny of future propagation of God's intended lineage.
It is my fervent belief that God institutionalized the doctrine of "my brother's keeper" into the agency of Holy governance. Therefore, predicated on this canonic truth, there is no such thing as "victimless sin."
Imagine, God ordained Jeremiah a prophet, before he was even born. Jeremiah was given to the world as a "prophet unto the nations," in an act of marvelous mercy towards us. Additionally, the entire book of Jeremiah was dedicated to the purpose of warning every dispensation of the profound dangers of "national sin," where a nation can "forget their God," committing open and willful sin before his eyes. Such nations are properly warned of this peril and are subject to corporate judgment and complete destruction.
So who bears responsibility for not informing the uninformed of gods word for those that sin, that God will rebuke them regardless?
Is it their fault that they were never taught right or wrong in your understanding of right and wrong, or rather your interpretation of the term?
This is akin to the belief that those whom fail to accept Christ as their savior are doomed, yet if they've never heard the word, would this not reflect back on the failures of missionaries?
In other words, you, by your own admittance, are responsible for not teaching Gods word, and must bear responsibility, becoming your brothers keeper, as in responsible for their every action. Kind of a catch 22.
QuoteJeremiah 1 King James Version (KJV) The salient verse being verse (5)
1 "The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin:
2 To whom the word of the Lord came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign.
3 It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.
4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
6 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.
7 But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.
8 Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the Lord.
9 Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.
10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.
Don't give a damn.
Best wishes.
QuoteMy answer to the first question is that Man is inherently evil, born into a fallen state of corruption in this dispensation.
And, yet, the Bible says that God created man in his own image and likeness.
How could a perfect, loving, omnipotent God, create something - in his own image and likeness - that is "inherently evil"?
Or, having created something that, through no fault of God's own, became corrupted and "inherently evil" how could God allow such evil perversion of his divine creation to continue to exist?
Darth
Quote from: Darth Fife on December 04, 2014, 08:25:08 AM
And, yet, the Bible says that God created man in his own image and likeness.
How could a perfect, loving, omnipotent God, create something - in his own image and likeness - that is "inherently evil"?
Or, having created something that, through no fault of God's own, became corrupted and "inherently evil" how could God allow such evil perversion of his divine creation to continue to exist?
Darth
Now you've done it. :lol:
Get ready for a bunch of biblical quotes, due to his inability for debate.
Our faith belongs in God. Republicans can not save us. God has made them impotent.
So,that means God is a democrat????
Bob R
Quote from: Darth Fife on December 04, 2014, 08:25:08 AM
And, yet, the Bible says that God created man in his own image and likeness.
How could a perfect, loving, omnipotent God, create something - in his own image and likeness - that is "inherently evil"?
Or, having created something that, through no fault of God's own, became corrupted and "inherently evil" how could God allow such evil perversion of his divine creation to continue to exist?
Darth
You ask great questions, to be sure! I could never provide greater answers to these questions than those given by God, himself. Contrary to my unfriendly poster-friend's summation, I'm not here for debate, or to impose my beliefs on anyone. I'm a simple sinner, saved by grace, thankful that God cares about the Earth and all who dwell herein. Most of all, I'm thankful that God calls upon every man to accept him for who he is, love him back, and join him in eternity as joint heirs with his son - in whom he is well pleased! It is never my choice, but I will honor any request to refrain from preemptively engaging another poster.
If we acknowledge the "dispensational" evolution of God's creation, it's easier to understand biblical text when it speaks to different time periods. Without delving into a study of a pre-Adamic period and subsequent dispensations leading to the present closing of the "dispensation of grace," otherwise known as the current "church age;" I'll only offer my best understanding of any given subject, as I'm constantly learning like everyone else.
I love the Genesis scripture you're referencing and I'd like to examine it quickly. Genesis: chapter 1
26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."
When considering what's actually being spoken in these verses, I hope you'll take pause to truly think.
In verse 26 it's clear there's a discussion between the three personages of the God-head (a plurality of three...known as the Trinity), whereupon the decision is announced that they have not only created us, but have given us "dominion" over a new world and essentially everything in it. I say, Love is the answer, because the Bible makes it clear that it is so. Only a loving God, of benevolent intent, would gift his newly created family with such immense blessing. God calls himself our Father because he is, and has proven himself to be. God recognizes his own Holiness, yet announces pleasure in his children (sinners all), in whom he created in his "own likeness."
You pose one of the great questions of the ages when asking why a divine God would institute "free agency" in mortal man. I believe it's easier to conceptualize the answer than we pretend. If we're made in God's loving likeness, why wouldn't we share a shadowing of the capacity for love. Even better, this becomes evidence that God wants to be "loved back." We are "like unto him" in an array of attributes, but in a war with sin in our current fallen state as well. God called his family to be fruitful, and to multiply. This evidences the intent for future collaboration with man, who God so loves. I want my children to love me in their own volition and free will, not because they're programmed to do so.
I'd like to say to you that everyone has failed God. The great patriarchs of the Bible failed Him, The prophets failed Him, the Disciples failed Him, The Kings failed Him, The Judges failed Him and I fail Him daily. Only one sinless human being ever lived - the living, resurrected Son of God.
It's easy for me to understand the reality of God's incredible love for all mankind. I have studied the word of God for the better part of my life. I'm strong in conviction because it's inescapable when reaching the point of comprehensive study, along with the decision to stop trying to do battle with him.:) I assure you, it has nothing to do with me being smart...I'm not! I allowed the world to stomp the morbid hell out of me when I eventually began to ask questions with an open mind.
In closing, please allow me to say this dispensation is closing at breathtaking speed. God has expended every energy of his servants to plead with our people to understand simple fundamentals of who we are, why are we here, where are we going....and why?
God will soon give the world what they're asking for - a world without Him in it! It's called the tribulation. Its a period marked by all but complete destruction of this Earth. There will come another. John 5: 43 "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." The Bible makes it clear that a "King of fierce countenance" (Anti-Christ) will soon assume global authority, first in the name of peace. He will later reign terror upon the Earth with unspeakable cruelty. Thank God, I won't be here.
Everyone enjoys offering John, 3:16. I like the following verses better.
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
There is much on our horizon to be "saved" from, and I want my brothers with me.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Quote from: walkstall on December 02, 2014, 12:40:51 PM
This is the Religion Forum. IF you keep bring up politics and finance, I will move it.
I can't talk about Christianity, as I understand it, and not talk about political, economic and cultural issues of our times. To understand biblical prophecy of future times (I believe our time) is to know that politics and economics are two of the weapons used to deceive the world. To try and speak solely about one or the other is difficult because for me it is all connected.
As I stated earlier. All my political conclusions seem empty and just not good enough. We can all sit here and talk about the RINO's. It's all the RINO's fault. If we could just get rid of them all would be well. We can talk about the Tea Party. If we would all just vote Tea Party all would be well. The Left are all commies. If we could just get rid of the commies all would be well.
I've had those conversations six different ways to Sunday but they still leave me thinking there has to be something more going on. Something much deeper. A cause and effect that exists on a level beyond the news cycle. Our real problems are a cultural erosion. There wouldn't be so many America hating subversive leftists if they had grown in a culture that didn't make it seem cool to think that way. But that's just a begin point.
Quote from: Rasputttin on December 04, 2014, 07:51:20 PM
North Fulton County. Rep. Tom Price R-Ga
Same here. I got my eye on you son...
Quote from: Rasputttin on December 04, 2014, 08:16:07 PM
I can't talk about Christianity, as I understand it, and not talk about political, economic and cultural issues of our times. To understand biblical prophecy of future times (I believe our time) is to know that politics and economics are two of the weapons used to deceive the world. To try and speak solely about one or the other is difficult because for me it is all connected.
As I stated earlier. All my political conclusions seem empty and just not good enough. We can all sit here and talk about the RINO's. It's all the RINO's fault. If we could just get rid of them all would be well. We can talk about the Tea Party. If we would all just vote Tea Party all would be well. The Left are all commies. If we could just get rid of the commies all would be well.
I've had those conversations six different ways to Sunday but they still leave me thinking there has to be something more going on. Something much deeper. A cause and effect that exists on a level beyond the news cycle. Our real problems are a cultural erosion. There wouldn't be so many America hating subversive leftists if they had grown in a culture that didn't make it seem cool to think that way. But that's just a begin point.
I appreciate your willingness to be honest here. The "America hating subversive leftists" are now multiple generations deep, and will soon supersede the number of conservatives and Christians in America through attrition, alone. I believe your spiritual instincts are correct and serving you well. God's people have been given remarkable discernment, but many run from it. Amazing, God says: "Men perish for lack of knowledge"
I might ask if you're familiar with the scriptures in second Timothy, chapter three? I believe you will be staggered with the portent revealed in this body of scripture, yet heartened that God moved upon Paul to deliver these truths to Timothy so very long ago. God chose Paul to mentor Timothy, a young Prophet, and to stand him up in knowledge of truth, including this prophecy - which is immediately in front of us. Review these verses and decide for yourself if these manifestations of our current societal deformity is represented here. Please allow me to draw your attention to the significance of verses three, five, seven, twelve and thirteen. There is more here than meets the casual eye. All verses are salient, but I ask you to consider what is offered in those mentioned. Thanks.
Carl Marx stated his goal had two fronts. First, to destroy capitalism, then to "dethrone God"
Communism is thriving best in its natural habitat.....the American University!
2 Timothy 3 King James Version (KJV)
1 "This know also, that in the (last days) perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
Best wishes.
Quote from: taxed on December 04, 2014, 10:12:24 PM
Same here. I got my eye on you son...
Cool man. Glad to know ya. How long have you been living here? I was born in Atlanta but have been in N. Fulton since the spring of 1972 turning 4 years old that August. It was a great place to grow up and nothing like it is now. I miss the way it was but progress happens. So long as it's not progressive progress I'll stick around.
Quote from: ORIGINAL WILLARD on December 05, 2014, 07:36:34 AM
I might ask if you're familiar with the scriptures in second Timothy, chapter three?
Yes I am very familiar. You should see the notes I've made in my bible along the edges of those verses.
I wish more people would allow themselves to be exposed to biblical prophecy. If they would take the time to look at it with an open mind,and with a good teacher. They would be amazed at how accurate it is, and how it is almost an exact account of what is now happening right before our eyes.
The most frustrating thing for me is how so many good people just don't want to hear it. Many of them Christian people. They think the bible is just some outdated book that doesn't apply to our modern world. They think it is a collection of stories written by people who had ulterior motives rather than the Word of God. To study it earnestly and sort through it with a desire to know it can leave you with no other understanding than it is the Word of God. There is just to many things written so long ago and yet proven right time and again. I'm not talking about vague prophecies like Nostradomous (misspelled probably) but very exact stuff concerning the realities of today's world.
Quote from: Rasputttin on December 05, 2014, 04:48:52 PM
Yes I am very familiar. You should see the notes I've made in my bible along the edges of those verses.
I wish more people would allow themselves to be exposed to biblical prophecy. If they would take the time to look at it with an open mind,and with a good teacher. They would be amazed at how accurate it is, and how it is almost an exact account of what is now happening right before our eyes.
The most frustrating thing for me is how so many good people just don't want to hear it. Many of them Christian people. They think the bible is just some outdated book that doesn't apply to our modern world. They think it is a collection of stories written by people who had ulterior motives rather than the Word of God. To study it earnestly and sort through it with a desire to know it can leave you with no other understanding than it is the Word of God. There is just to many things written so long ago and yet proven right time and again. I'm not talking about vague prophecies like Nostradomous (misspelled probably) but very exact stuff concerning the realities of today's world.
Yes, like Psalm 22, written approximately 1120 years before Christ was even born. It is a prophetic foretelling of the crucifixion account of Jesus. King David was so loved by God, deemed to be a man after God's own heart. It would stand to reason why God chose him to write such tremendous prophecy all through the entire book of Psalms. I enjoy your posts, thanks!
Quote from: ORIGINAL WILLARD on December 04, 2014, 12:00:49 PM
You ask great questions, to be sure! I could never provide greater answers to these questions than those given by God, himself. Contrary to my unfriendly poster-friend's summation, I'm not here for debate, or to impose my beliefs on anyone. I'm a simple sinner, saved by grace, thankful that God cares about the Earth and all who dwell herein. Most of all, I'm thankful that God calls upon every man to accept him for who he is, love him back, and join him in eternity as joint heirs with his son - in whom he is well pleased! It is never my choice, but I will honor any request to refrain from preemptively engaging another poster.
Nicely written. However, it does nothing to address those "great questions" I asked.
QuoteIf we acknowledge the "dispensational" evolution of God's creation, it's easier to understand biblical text when it speaks to different time periods. Without delving into a study of a pre-Adamic period and subsequent dispensations leading to the present closing of the "dispensation of grace," otherwise known as the current "church age;" I'll only offer my best understanding of any given subject, as I'm constantly learning like everyone else.
Meaning no disrespect, but I classify this as the theological equivalent of "techno-babble" - big words, used well and cleverly, but they mean absolutely nothing. So, no. I don't 'acknowledge the "dispensational" evolution of God's creations.
QuoteI love the Genesis scripture you're referencing and I'd like to examine it quickly. Genesis: chapter 1
26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."
When considering what's actually being spoken in these verses, I hope you'll take pause to truly think.
In verse 26 it's clear there's a discussion between the three personages of the God-head (a plurality of three...known as the Trinity), whereupon the decision is announced that they have not only created us, but have given us "dominion" over a new world and essentially everything in it. I say, Love is the answer, because the Bible makes it clear that it is so. Only a loving God, of benevolent intent, would gift his newly created family with such immense blessing. God calls himself our Father because he is, and has proven himself to be. God recognizes his own Holiness, yet announces pleasure in his children (sinners all), in whom he created in his "own likeness."
There are some who say the "Trinity" is not Biblical in nature, but was a theological convention born of the Council of Nicea to explain how Jesus could be both God and man, and still have Christianity claim to be "mono-theistic. The Trinity certainly is not even hinted at in the Old Testament, and several notable Christian sects reject the concept of the Trinity.
QuoteYou pose one of the great questions of the ages when asking why a divine God would institute "free agency" in mortal man.
Nice try at deflection, but that is not the "great question of the ages" that I posed. Allow me to refresh your memory:
How could a perfect, loving, omnipotent God, create something - in his own image and likeness - that is "inherently evil"? QuoteI believe it's easier to conceptualize the answer than we pretend. If we're made in God's loving likeness, why wouldn't we share a shadowing of the capacity for love. Even better, this becomes evidence that God wants to be "loved back." We are "like unto him" in an array of attributes, but in a war with sin in our current fallen state as well. God called his family to be fruitful, and to multiply. This evidences the intent for future collaboration with man, who God so loves. I want my children to love me in their own volition and free will, not because they're programmed to do so.
You are wandering off into the weeds here. Try to stay on point. It's okay... I'll wait...
QuoteI'd like to say to you that everyone has failed God. The great patriarchs of the Bible failed Him, The prophets failed Him, the Disciples failed Him, The Kings failed Him, The Judges failed Him and I fail Him daily. Only one sinless human being ever lived - the living, resurrected Son of God.
Failure to live up to the potential given us by God is one thing. It is a far differnent thing than being "inherently Evil".
QuoteIt's easy for me to understand the reality of God's incredible love for all mankind. I have studied the word of God for the better part of my life. I'm strong in conviction because it's inescapable when reaching the point of comprehensive study, along with the decision to stop trying to do battle with him.:) I assure you, it has nothing to do with me being smart...I'm not! I allowed the world to stomp the morbid hell out of me when I eventually began to ask questions with an open mind.
Good for you. My question still awaits an answer.
QuoteIn closing, please allow me to say this dispensation is closing at breathtaking speed. God has expended every energy of his servants to plead with our people to understand simple fundamentals of who we are, why are we here, where are we going....and why?
God will soon give the world what they're asking for - a world without Him in it! It's called the tribulation. Its a period marked by all but complete destruction of this Earth. There will come another. John 5: 43 "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." The Bible makes it clear that a "King of fierce countenance" (Anti-Christ) will soon assume global authority, first in the name of peace. He will later reign terror upon the Earth with unspeakable cruelty. Thank God, I won't be here.
Everyone enjoys offering John, 3:16. I like the following verses better.
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
There is much on our horizon to be "saved" from, and I want my brothers with me.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
So, what I'm getting here is that Jesus will have his Second Coming before I get an answer to my question.
So let it be written. So let it be done!
:rolleyes:
Darth
Quote from: ORIGINAL WILLARD on December 05, 2014, 07:05:25 PM
Yes, like Psalm 22, written approximately 1120 years before Christ was even born. It is a prophetic foretelling of the crucifixion account of Jesus. King David was so loved by God, deemed to be a man after God's own heart. It would stand to reason why God chose him to write such tremendous prophecy all through the entire book of Psalms. I enjoy your posts, thanks!
Yes, exactly like Psalm 22. You're a newbie like me. Glad to meetcha.
Quote from: Darth Fife on December 05, 2014, 07:25:04 PM
Nicely written. However, it does nothing to address those "great questions" I asked.
Meaning no disrespect, but I classify this as the theological equivalent of "techno-babble" - big words, used well and cleverly, but they mean absolutely nothing. So, no. I don't 'acknowledge the "dispensational" evolution of God's creations.
There are some who say the "Trinity" is not Biblical in nature, but was a theological convention born of the Council of Nicea to explain how Jesus could be both God and man, and still have Christianity claim to be "mono-theistic. The Trinity certainly is not even hinted at in the Old Testament, and several notable Christian sects reject the concept of the Trinity.
Nice try at deflection, but that is not the "great question of the ages" that I posed. Allow me to refresh your memory:
How could a perfect, loving, omnipotent God, create something - in his own image and likeness - that is "inherently evil"?
You are wandering off into the weeds here. Try to stay on point. It's okay... I'll wait...
Failure to live up to the potential given us by God is one thing. It is a far differnent thing than being "inherently Evil".
Good for you. My question still awaits an answer.
So, what I'm getting here is that Jesus will have his Second Coming before I get an answer to my question.
So let it be written. So let it be done!
:rolleyes:
Darth
He avoided mine as well. :glare: :lol:
Quote from: Darth Fife on December 04, 2014, 08:25:08 AM
And, yet, the Bible says that God created man in his own image and likeness.
How could a perfect, loving, omnipotent God, create something - in his own image and likeness - that is "inherently evil"?
Or, having created something that, through no fault of God's own, became corrupted and "inherently evil" how could God allow such evil perversion of his divine creation to continue to exist?
Darth
You are missing the big point. This earth age is a battle between God and Satan. The whole purpose of this age is for us to choose a side. In the first earth age Satan rebelled against God and deceived many of the angels. Many of us were those angels. God could have destroyed them at that time but he chose to destroy the age instead. Those of us who did not rebel are what the bible calls "the elect". Those who did rebel have this age in the flesh to get it right.
I realize everything I am saying sounds contrary to the popular understanding of Christianity. Most Christians have no idea what I am talking about. Just as most Christians think Eve ate an apple. There is no apple in the book of Genesis.
The point is that the bible itself says that we as humans are evil. Born that way. We must overcome our natural insticts. The flesh is evil and we are in the flesh.
We are not created in God's image. It says that God and the angels said let us make man in OUR image. We are in the image we were in the first earth age. Meaning we look just as we did then. Angels do not have wings. That is another misconception. Every time angels appeared to man in the bible they looked just like us. They were spirit bodies but they did have bodies and they looked just as we look. Mana is called angel food,and it is,but it also fed the Israelites who wondered the desert with Moses for 40 years. In other words, the same thing that sustains an angelic body can sustain our flesh body. We are not that different.
Again. I realize everything I just said will be mocked and made fun of. That's OK,but I have to say it. You can't listen to the Joel Olsteins of the world a understand Christianity. The fact is human beings love fantsy. Be it scifi or porn they love fantasy. The fact is there is nothing more fantastic than the world we live in. You just have to open your eyes and see it.
Quote from: Rasputttin on December 05, 2014, 07:54:21 PM
You are missing the big point. This earth age is a battle between God and Satan. The whole purpose of this age is for us to choose a side. In the first earth age Satan rebelled against God and deceived many of the angels. Many of us were those angels. God could have destroyed them at that time but he chose to destroy the age instead. Those of us who did not rebel are what the bible calls "the elect". Those who did rebel have this age in the flesh to get it right.
I assume you are talking of the fall of the angels and the subsequent story of Noah and the Great Flood.
I'm also assuming that you know that the story of Noah is not original to the Bible. It is a retelling of part of the Epic of Gilgamesh - which predate the Old Testament by 1000 to 1200 years!
QuoteI realize everything I am saying sounds contrary to the popular understanding of Christianity. Most Christians have no idea what I am talking about. Just as most Christians think Eve ate an apple. There is no apple in the book of Genesis.
This is true - it is the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It appears that The Garden of Eden story from Genesis was also "lifted" from the Epic of Gilgamesh.
QuoteThe point is that the bible itself says that we as humans are evil. Born that way. We must overcome our natural instincts. The flesh is evil and we are in the flesh.
I think we need to get this out of the way right now. The Bible was written by men, as were all religious texts. Some of the men were good. Some were bad. And some were just plain stupid.
It contains some history, some philosophy, some parables and some out right fairy tales. Sometimes it is trying to teach us a valuable lesson in morals and other times it is trying to impose the rule of a tyrannical leader upon the populace by claiming that what that leader says are the command of the Lord God!
And, at times, it is protesting the rule of a tyrannical leader!
It is not divine, nor is it even divinely inspired. It is a very, very human document.
QuoteWe are not created in God's image. It says that God and the angels said let us make man in OUR image.
This semantic slight of hand doesn't work. Even assuming that angles existed at the creation of man, God said "OUR" image - he didn't say "your" (meaning the angels) image. Since he is reported to have said "Our" one can only assume that there is little difference between the "image and likeness" of God and his angels.
More likely, though, is the fact that the authors of Genesis use the common literary term known as the "royal plural" - a tradition nearly as ancient as the Bible itself. A king or sovereign would always refer to himself (or herself) in the plural. Since to the authors of the Bible, God would be the ultimate royalty, it only makes sense that they would have him speak using the Royal Plural.
Of course, you know there are two radically different stories of creation and the the creation of man in Genesis, correct?
QuoteWe are in the image we were in the first earth age. Meaning we look just as we did then. Angels do not have wings. That is another misconception. Every time angels appeared to man in the bible they looked just like us. They were spirit bodies but they did have bodies and they looked just as we look. Mana is called angel food,and it is,but it also fed the Israelites who wondered the desert with Moses for 40 years. In other words, the same thing that sustains an angelic body can sustain our flesh body. We are not that different.
This is interesting and well noted, but totally irrelevant to my question.
QuoteAgain. I realize everything I just said will be mocked and made fun of. That's OK,but I have to say it. You can't listen to the Joel Olsteins of the world a understand Christianity. The fact is human beings love fantasy. Be it scifi or porn they love fantasy. The fact is there is nothing more fantastic than the world we live in. You just have to open your eyes and see it.
Oh, I'm not here to make fun of anyone, and I certainly agree with you about Joel Olstein! And my eyes are open. I see the Bible and it's teachings for what they really are, not what some fakir in an Armani suit claims they are. I've not just studied the Bible, I've investigated where the Bible comes from.
Darth
Quote from: Darth Fife on December 06, 2014, 01:04:14 PM
I assume you are talking of the fall of the angels and the subsequent story of Noah and the Great Flood.
Well, Not really. The time span between the first earth age fallen angels and the story of Noah is a very long time. Centuries even.
Look,there is nothing I can say that you can't rebute. I understand all your points. I have heard them my entire life. Belief is a matter of faith. I can not prove it and you can not disprove it. We can talk circles around each other and I doubt you want to do that any more than I do.
I truly do understand your angle on this topic but there is nothing I can say to dissuade you from that perspective. I have many points to make but it requires me to speak them to you. I hate typing and just really don't want to have to put forth the effort.
My teachings were that "Image", was not meant to be interpreted as visual, but rather image of god in manner of heart and soul.
In other words, God gave us the gift of life so we could experience love as only he knows it.
It's no accident Dog, is God spelled backward, so that even the most hideous among us could experience love.
Quote from: Solar on December 06, 2014, 01:51:54 PM
My teachings were that "Image", was not meant to be interpreted as visual, but rather image of god in manner of heart and soul.
In other words, God gave us the gift of life so we could experience love as only he knows it.
It's no accident Dog, is God spelled backward, so that even the most hideous among us could experience love.
All I can say is that our "teachings" are flawed. I grew up in the same society you did, Most Christian understanding is false. The entire story of the bible as presented by pop culture is wrong. Most people believe that Adam and Eve ate an apple from a tree and God "punished" them for eating an apple. It's all wrong.
I do not mean to talk down to anyone. My only goal is to correct the flawed understanding that is our current understanding. An understanding that is so entrenched in our pop culture that it is accepted without question.
Quote from: Rasputttin on December 06, 2014, 02:25:37 PM
All I can say is that our "teachings" are flawed. I grew up in the same society you did, Most Christian understanding is false. The entire story of the bible as presented by pop culture is wrong. Most people believe that Adam and Eve ate an apple from a tree and God "punished" them for eating an apple. It's all wrong.
I do not mean to talk down to anyone. My only goal is to correct the flawed understanding that is our current understanding. An understanding that is so entrenched in our pop culture that it is accepted without question.
No, you are much younger than I, so you are simply ignorant of history prior.
What makes you such an expert on what the interpretation of "Image" was at the time?
Quote from: Rasputttin on December 06, 2014, 01:28:03 PM
Well, Not really. The time span between the first earth age fallen angels and the story of Noah is a very long time. Centuries even.
Look,there is nothing I can say that you can't rebute. I understand all your points. I have heard them my entire life. Belief is a matter of faith. I can not prove it and you can not disprove it. We can talk circles around each other and I doubt you want to do that any more than I do.
I truly do understand your angle on this topic but there is nothing I can say to dissuade you from that perspective. I have many points to make but it requires me to speak them to you. I hate typing and just really don't want to have to put forth the effort.
Faith is sometimes necessary. However, faith always works best when it is grounded on a foundation of scientific fact, logic and reason.
God gave a highly developed mind capable of comprehending complex abstractions and logic for a very good reason - he expects us to use them!
God doesn't fear science or logic - he invented them.
Darth
Quote from: Darth Fife on December 06, 2014, 02:35:03 PM
Faith is sometimes necessary. However, faith always works best when it is grounded on a foundation of scientific fact, logic and reason.
God gave a highly developed mind capable of comprehending complex abstractions and logic for a very good reason - he expects us to use them!
God doesn't fear science or logic - he invented them.
Darth
Hmmmm.... My understanding of faith is that it is the very antithesis -- the exact opposite, in fact -- of scientific fact and logic and reason. By its very nature and definition, faith involves beliefs that cannot be proven by normal means.
That explains why every attempt to replace religion in our culture involves the Left attempting to replace it with bogus "science." AGW is a perfect example. Actual true science doesn't support the concept of AGW in any way. So we have the spectacle of Leftist pseudo-scientists attempting to use computer models they themselves have fashioned to produce a pre-determined outcome to support AGW. The idea is to lend the pseudo-science the cloak of respectability afforded to faith-based religion by declaring that their preferred "God" (the pseudo-scientists' so-called 'consensus') say it is so. AGW cannot be proven by logical, factual means, so it is, by definition, a matter of faith.
Quote from: Darth Fife on December 06, 2014, 02:35:03 PM
Faith is sometimes necessary. However, faith always works best when it is grounded on a foundation of scientific fact, logic and reason.
God gave a highly developed mind capable of comprehending complex abstractions and logic for a very good reason - he expects us to use them!
God doesn't fear science or logic - he invented them.
Darth
Yes! your last sentence is what I've claimed all these years.
Here's the thing. Why do you trust "science" to tell you there is no God yet reject the same establishment that tells you about global warming?
I'm sorry. I made an assumption, I have no idea what your thoughts on global warming are. I have never heard you comment on it. I am still new here.
Point being that the subversive left has taken control of the field of science. They come to preconceived conclusions to advance a political theocracy. Accepting them here because it fits with your view doesn't explain rejecting them there because it doesn't fit.
Scientists are just humans. They have agendas.
Quote from: Rasputttin on December 06, 2014, 02:51:31 PM
Yes! your last sentence is what I've claimed all these years.
Here's the thing. Why do you trust "science" to tell you there is no God yet reject the same establishment that tells you about global warming?
I'm sorry. I made an assumption, I have no idea what your thoughts on global warming are. I have never heard you comment on it. I am still new here.
Point being that the subversive left has taken control of the field of science. They come to preconceived conclusions to advance a political theocracy. Accepting them here because it fits with your view doesn't explain rejecting them there because it doesn't fit.
Scientists are just humans. They have agendas.
Well stated.
Quote from: Gator Monroe on November 23, 2014, 06:28:09 PM
The "Winning" of the battle came from more folks FINALLY getting it ! (That there are two viable political Parties right now , so choosing the direction of America means picking ONE of the two for now)
That is simply not true. America has, and always has had a plethora of political parties. Some of whom have and do get elected, some who don't. But this idea that we have or are a bicameral system is simply erroneous, and in fact part of the problem.
It's what has enabled, and lead too the same, lifelong, tired, socialists being re-elected time and again.
In fact the belief that we have a "two party system" is what keeps people like Boehner for example in office for so long.
What else are folks going to do, but elect him, if they think going into the elections that their only option is to pull the vote tab for him or the dim.....
Quote from: Rasputttin on December 06, 2014, 02:51:31 PM
Yes! your last sentence is what I've claimed all these years.
Here's the thing. Why do you trust "science" to tell you there is no God yet reject the same establishment that tells you about global warming?
Despite what the Left would have you believe, many scientists believe in God, just as many don't believe in AGW.
QuoteI'm sorry. I made an assumption, I have no idea what your thoughts on global warming are. I have never heard you comment on it. I am still new here.
I'm a retired USN Weather Forecaster/Analyst. And I know AGW is horseshit!
QuotePoint being that the subversive left has taken control of the field of science. They come to preconceived conclusions to advance a political theocracy. Accepting them here because it fits with your view doesn't explain rejecting them there because it doesn't fit.
Just because a group of scientists choose to ignore evidence that God exists, does not mean he doesn't exist.
There is evidence that the ancient Greeks knew that the Earth was round, and yet up until the middle ages,
scientists taught that the Earth was flat.
QuoteScientists are just humans. They have agendas.
True science is objective. Objectivity has no agenda.
I don't question the existence of God. I take that as a given. I do, however, question how some humans characterize God and his actions.
Those folks have agendas too!
Look at it this way. How many times have we seen some 300 lb trailer park floozie thanking "God" for helping her win the Powerball Lottery? Maybe it is just me, but I feel that the All Powerful Creator of All Things has a few more important things to occupy His time with than
helping some obese couch potato pick the winning lottery numbers!But, hey, that is just me - your mileage may vary!
Darth