Conservative Political Forum

Hello, everyone.

I am a proud public school teacher and union member. I suspect that this puts me slightly at odds with a lot of you on a lot of issues. That brings me to why I'm posting.

In all issues of great concern in this country, people spend a lot of time taking pot shots at one another. If you don't end up hating the other side of the argument, you aren't listening to how nasty they've gotten. In the meantime, nothing gets better. I would like to see if I can have a real conversation about education in America with people who are never going to agree with me on most things.

I have come to this board with a few questions, and I hope you will ask me some, too. I will answer as honestly as I am able and will try to treat you with respect and dignity. I have an FYI before I ask my questions. You can say whatever you like, but I will not respond to any post with a personal attack. Criticize my ideas and opinions all you like, but name calling will get you nowhere.

My questions are:

Why do so many conservatives say venomously hateful things about public schools and support policies that undermine them?

Why do so many conservatives have the same rhetoric and policies about teacher unions as they do about public schools?

If you choose to respond to these questions, thank you. I also would appreciate it if in your response you would tell me what you do for work. When talking about what I do for a living, it's easier to explain my point of view when I know what you do. I'm looking forward to a very interesting and spirited conversation.

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 10, 2017, 07:16:49 PM
Hello, everyone.

I am a proud public school teacher and union member. I suspect that this puts me slightly at odds with a lot of you on a lot of issues. That brings me to why I'm posting.

In all issues of great concern in this country, people spend a lot of time taking pot shots at one another. If you don't end up hating the other side of the argument, you aren't listening to how nasty they've gotten. In the meantime, nothing gets better. I would like to see if I can have a real conversation about education in America with people who are never going to agree with me on most things.

I have come to this board with a few questions, and I hope you will ask me some, too. I will answer as honestly as I am able and will try to treat you with respect and dignity. I have an FYI before I ask my questions. You can say whatever you like, but I will not respond to any post with a personal attack. Criticize my ideas and opinions all you like, but name calling will get you nowhere.

My questions are:

Why do so many conservatives say venomously hateful things about public schools and support policies that undermine them?

Why do so many conservatives have the same rhetoric and policies about teacher unions as they do about public schools?

If you choose to respond to these questions, thank you. I also would appreciate it if in your response you would tell me what you do for work. When talking about what I do for a living, it's easier to explain my point of view when I know what you do. I'm looking forward to a very interesting and spirited conversation.

Well that took about 2 hrs. for you to post.

I for one took my kids out of public schools and put all three into private schools.  Public schools did nothing for me, but pass me on.  My wife on the other hand had private schooling. 

After two years of our first child in the best public school in town we pulled her out as she was not going to be like me.   

I am retired and did not need a union to keep my jobs.  I worked over 65 years and all the union did in my younger years was keep me back. 

All my kids made sure their kids got a private schooling also, knowing what it did for them....

IF you need a union to keep your job or get more pay, then there something wrong. 

JUST my 2¢.   

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 10, 2017, 07:16:49 PM
Hello, everyone.

I am a proud public school teacher and union member. I suspect that this puts me slightly at odds with a lot of you on a lot of issues. That brings me to why I'm posting.

In all issues of great concern in this country, people spend a lot of time taking pot shots at one another. If you don't end up hating the other side of the argument, you aren't listening to how nasty they've gotten. In the meantime, nothing gets better. I would like to see if I can have a real conversation about education in America with people who are never going to agree with me on most things.

I have come to this board with a few questions, and I hope you will ask me some, too. I will answer as honestly as I am able and will try to treat you with respect and dignity. I have an FYI before I ask my questions. You can say whatever you like, but I will not respond to any post with a personal attack. Criticize my ideas and opinions all you like, but name calling will get you nowhere.

My questions are:

Why do so many conservatives say venomously hateful things about public schools and support policies that undermine them?

Why do so many conservatives have the same rhetoric and policies about teacher unions as they do about public schools?

If you choose to respond to these questions, thank you. I also would appreciate it if in your response you would tell me what you do for work. When talking about what I do for a living, it's easier to explain my point of view when I know what you do. I'm looking forward to a very interesting and spirited conversation.

QuoteWhy do so many conservatives say venomously hateful things about public schools and support policies that undermine them?

Actually we don't. We simply point out the amount of money shoveled annually to the public schools and their poor track record

QuoteWhy do so many conservatives have the same rhetoric and policies about teacher unions as they do about public schools?

What is this supposed to mean?

Why are the teaches unions and teaches so against Charter schools...?

QuoteCriticize my ideas and opinions all you like, but name calling will get you nowhere. 

You do not set the rules of this forum, or any thread - we are allowed to post at the pleasure of the owner(s), and can leave (or be booted) at any time, with or without reason.

QuoteWhy do so many conservatives say venomously hateful things about public schools and support policies that undermine them?

Why do so many public school teachers say venomously hateful things about home schoolers and support policies that undermine them?

QuoteWhy do so many conservatives have the same rhetoric and policies about teacher unions as they do about public schools?

Why do so many liberals have the same rhetoric and policies about non-union workers as they do about home schoolers?

QuoteI'm looking forward to a very interesting and spirited conversation.

I seriously doubt your honesty.

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 10, 2017, 07:16:49 PM
Hello, everyone.

I am a proud public school teacher and union member.

Why do so many conservatives have the same rhetoric and policies about teacher unions as they do about public schools?

Answer was in your opening sentence. Public schools and union trash all go together. Inferior product, exorbitant costs, and ethics of snakes.

For example: in Michigan, teacher strikes are illegal. We know the enemy. It is unionized.

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 10, 2017, 07:16:49 PM
Hello, everyone.

I am a proud public school teacher and union member. I suspect that this puts me slightly at odds with a lot of you on a lot of issues. That brings me to why I'm posting.

In all issues of great concern in this country, people spend a lot of time taking pot shots at one another. If you don't end up hating the other side of the argument, you aren't listening to how nasty they've gotten. In the meantime, nothing gets better. I would like to see if I can have a real conversation about education in America with people who are never going to agree with me on most things.

I have come to this board with a few questions, and I hope you will ask me some, too. I will answer as honestly as I am able and will try to treat you with respect and dignity. I have an FYI before I ask my questions. You can say whatever you like, but I will not respond to any post with a personal attack. Criticize my ideas and opinions all you like, but name calling will get you nowhere.

My questions are:

Why do so many conservatives say venomously hateful things about public schools and support policies that undermine them?

Why do so many conservatives have the same rhetoric and policies about teacher unions as they do about public schools?

If you choose to respond to these questions, thank you. I also would appreciate it if in your response you would tell me what you do for work. When talking about what I do for a living, it's easier to explain my point of view when I know what you do. I'm looking forward to a very interesting and spirited conversation.

"Why do so many conservatives say venomously hateful things about public schools and support policies that undermine them?"

They are not working. The results speak for themselves. Money is not the answer. Just look at the DC school system. Undermining and tying to improve are not the same things. It is not about individual dedicated teachers. They cannot overcome the bureaucracy of administrators and union leaders. I took my kids out of public schools because I found them unresponsive to parental concerns.

"Why do so many conservatives have the same rhetoric and policies about teacher unions as they do about public schools?"

Because many teacher unions put the unions first and to hell with the students. Just ask yourself the question as why parents would pay for schooling when publicly funded schools are readily available. It doesn't make sense does it? If public schools were good there is no way anything but very elite private schools would exist.

Quote from: supsalemgr on June 11, 2017, 05:45:14 AM
Because many teacher unions put the unions first and to hell with the students. Just ask yourself the question as why parents would pay for schooling when publicly funded schools are readily available. It doesn't make sense does it? If public schools were good there is no way anything but very elite private schools would exist.

How is it... a Professional, some with a Master's Degree, cannot figure out how to teach the basics, but, an average housewife can do what the Professional cannot?  Without those expensive facilities, just books and a kitchen table, severely limited income (and paying the Professional's salary via taxation) - their students still do much better?

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 10, 2017, 07:16:49 PM
Hello, everyone.

I am a proud public school teacher and union member. I suspect that this puts me slightly at odds with a lot of you on a lot of issues. That brings me to why I'm posting.

In all issues of great concern in this country, people spend a lot of time taking pot shots at one another. If you don't end up hating the other side of the argument, you aren't listening to how nasty they've gotten. In the meantime, nothing gets better. I would like to see if I can have a real conversation about education in America with people who are never going to agree with me on most things.

I have come to this board with a few questions, and I hope you will ask me some, too. I will answer as honestly as I am able and will try to treat you with respect and dignity. I have an FYI before I ask my questions. You can say whatever you like, but I will not respond to any post with a personal attack. Criticize my ideas and opinions all you like, but name calling will get you nowhere.

My questions are:

Why do so many conservatives say venomously hateful things about public schools and support policies that undermine them?

Why do so many conservatives have the same rhetoric and policies about teacher unions as they do about public schools?

If you choose to respond to these questions, thank you. I also would appreciate it if in your response you would tell me what you do for work. When talking about what I do for a living, it's easier to explain my point of view when I know what you do. I'm looking forward to a very interesting and spirited conversation.

What does a communist run Union have to do with a child's education?

Without reading further than the first two sentences of pure pap, how is it you fail to grasp the failure of today's curriculum over that of the early 20th century?
Back when an 8th grade education shamed that of modern day college graduates.
PC is the curriculum of the day and true history be damned, global warming is being taught as settled science, rather than the theory that it actually is.
Critical thinking has been replaced with "capitalism is evil", period. Can you say "INDOCTRINATION"?

Yet you think Conservatives hate teachers? Match, meet strawman.
What an ignorant buffoon!

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 10, 2017, 07:16:49 PM
I have come to this board with a few questions ...

If you really want to improve education, you will want to read the following:

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/political-discussion-and-debate/leftists-rabidly-oppose-education/

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/library/get-all-you-can-from-school/

In short, the "education" SYSTEM was designed to LIMIT how much students learn.
A full discussion of that can be found in the book,
The Underground History of American Education.
The full text on that book can be found online in at least two locations.
A little searching can find them for you.

The "education" system was intentionally designed by social planners
to cripple students' minds,
to make them unable to understand how the social planners
are taking advantage of them through the various institutions
controlled by the social planners.

The most effective propagandists are people who themselves are brainwashed.
The "education" system is cheating the teachers
almost as much as it is cheating the students.

Former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld spoke of
"known knowns," "known unknowns," and "unknown unknowns."
There are things you know, things that you know that you don't know,
and things that you know so little about that
you don't even know that there is a gap in your knowledge.

The "education" system has been designed to
place some very important areas of knowledge
into the "unknown unknown" category.

If I learned everything they taught in school, and nothing else,
I would be woefully ignorant.
HUGE parts of my education came to me through my own individual effort.
If I had waited to be taught, it would NEVER have happened!

The social planners have designed the "education" system
to GUARANTEE that the students cannot learn certain skills (like critical thinking)
by denying those skills to their teachers!
Teachers CANNOT teach what they themselves don't know!

The "Get all you can from school" article
(http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/library/get-all-you-can-from-school/)
mentions several important subject areas
that are COMPLETELY MISSING from public schools.

It would be good if some textbooks suitable for school use
would be written on those areas.
For now, students can do some searching on those terms
and search out that knowledge for themselves.

Forums like this one can help fill those gaps in education.
It would be good for the knowledge to be condensed into a textbook.
But much of it is here, for anyone who is willing to browse and learn.

Well, that was the shortest "interesting and spirited conversation" I do believe I have ever witnessed. :lol: :lol: I do remember well how liberals used to write in and troll around trying to convince conservatives that they are right, they weren't, but at least
they did not quit after one post. Guess the world robbing hillary of what was rightly hers  has taken all the steam out of them. too bad.

The questions were answered truthfully and factually. These type responses totally disarm liberals. They need emotion for their energy.

Quote from: supsalemgr on June 11, 2017, 12:18:47 PM
The questions were answered truthfully and factually. These type responses totally disarm liberals. They need emotion for their energy.

Libs aren't used to having their strawman arguments ignored.

Quote from: s3779m on June 11, 2017, 12:16:10 PM
Well, that was the shortest "interesting and spirited conversation" I do believe I have ever witnessed. :lol: :lol: I do remember well how liberals used to write in and troll around trying to convince conservatives that they are right, they weren't, but at least
they did not quit after one post. Guess the world robbing hillary of what was rightly hers  has taken all the steam out of them. too bad.

Well it did take him almost 2 hrs. for his first post.  Give him time, as I am sure this is a shock to his very liberal thinking system.

Quote from: walkstall on June 11, 2017, 12:31:03 PM

Well it did take him almost 2 hrs. for his first post.  Give him time, as I am sure this is a shock to his very liberal thinking system.

I doubt they even know what a real Conservative is.

Quote from: je_freedom on June 11, 2017, 10:25:40 AM
If you really want to improve education, you will want to read the following:

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/political-discussion-and-debate/leftists-rabidly-oppose-education/

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/library/get-all-you-can-from-school/

In short, the "education" SYSTEM was designed to LIMIT how much students learn.
A full discussion of that can be found in the book,
The Underground History of American Education.
The full text on that book can be found online in at least two locations.
A little searching can find them for you.

The "education" system was intentionally designed by social planners to cripple students' minds, to make them unable to understand how the social planners are taking advantage of them through the various institutions controlled by the social planners.
...

How right you are!

Not too many years ago, I was discussing the value of a well-rounded education to enter the work force, with ... an educator, who was running the business development office.  L.G. said employers want employees with just ONE skill set, or the employee moves on to other opportunities (like more pay).   Minimal skills + minimal wages = the perfect employee (who cannot advance).  the community college was more than happy to offer ONLY those college courses.  Corn De-tasseling 101, Oil change in 30min or less, Grocery Shelf restocking, etc.
Just destroying our future, one dropout at a time. 

Keep them uneducated & poor, they'll make good wards of the state and vote Democrat.  _{Too bad Donald Trump screwed up that plan.}

So you want an honest and straightforward opinion and a spirited discussion but you don't want any of the "color" that goes a long with it....sounds like to don't like the brutality of fact, but here goes:

Are you asking about Teacher unions only or Unions in general? In my opinion you can't separate one from the other, both influence the other and both have an "Amicus Curiae" relationship. Unions are corrupt and self serving and decidedly LEFTIST....which is a nice way of saying a bunch of Marxists, either that or Mob/racketeer influenced.

This isn't something I made up either, my opinions are fact based as all of my positions on various issues that are marked by 25 years experience in Law Enforcement as everything from a plainclothes "nark" to an investigator to a mid level manager when I had to deal with Police Unions. Then Specifically, my cousin,as close to me as a sister, was a teacher for over 40 years, she and her husband got sick and fed up with the profession and retired some years ago in disgust.Their experiences added to mix.

It might also surprise you to learn I have a soft spot for Unions and working people as I grew up in a Union household and dear ol' daddy was a union official in the Western Pa steel mill. I also recall the mob violence connected with Jimmy the scumbag Hoffa when his teamster thugs tried to take over the unions and how they tried to intimidate and bully us.....It didn't work, a bunch of "Chicago Guinea's" (Dad's words)  don't mess with western Pa steel men ad railroaders and get away with it, not when everybody and their brother, all WW2 vets, have a deer rifle, a shotgun or a tire iron or a claw hammer in their car.

Suffice it to say I am not all that anti Union as I am anti Marxist and Anti mobster. Simple fact, today's Unions have both. The later I know for fact thru my investigative experience.

Now with backgrounds out of the way we shall address modern day "education" or perhaps I should say indoctrination. This is the reason I continue to dabble in the real estate market, flipping houses etc to send my Grandkids to private school or finance their home school. I want them learning, not being indoctrinated to leftist crap.

Yeah that's what I said, everyday I read about some teacher who calls the Boston Tea party terrorists or in some way shape or form engages in revisionist history or defames the founding fathers, Westward Expansion or various Americana history and culture. Then you have your absolute degenerate POS' who are having sex with their students, add in common core, add in no child left behind, transgender bathrooms and co ed showers and graduates who can't spell and never heard of the US Constitution, lets not forget the school policy about every time some kid acts like a kid you guys send him to the school nurse or psychiatrist who pump him full of behavior drugs to really twist his mind.

And the Union protects all the perverts, degenerates and unfit "teachers".....add everything up and you'll have some idea of the disgruntlement of not just myself but a large segment of the conservative population and even the centrists.

In short CLEANUP YOUR ACT. When the Unions purge themselves of the extreme leftists, the racketeers, the greedy dishonest lawyers who defend the slimiest of clients and once again become what they were meant to be then MAINSTREAM AMERICA might change their opinion.

Us much older people must remember teaches don't work on weekends, unless it under the table. 

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 10, 2017, 07:16:49 PM
Hello, everyone.

Hi!!

Quote
I am a proud public school teacher and union member. I suspect that this puts me slightly at odds with a lot of you on a lot of issues. That brings me to why I'm posting.

Not at all.  We have members, and conservatives in general, who live in a state where they are forced to belong to a union, against their wishes, regardless of any skill or talent they may provide to an employer.  So, no worries, just because you are mandated to belong to a union if you want to work doesn't mean we assume you're a liberal.  Plus, some people like to teach, and any civilization should have a people wiling to pass knowledge on down, so I'm glad you're proud of doing that.

Quote
In all issues of great concern in this country, people spend a lot of time taking pot shots at one another.

I have no idea what this statement means.

Quote
If you don't end up hating the other side of the argument, you aren't listening to how nasty they've gotten. In the meantime, nothing gets better. I would like to see if I can have a real conversation about education in America with people who are never going to agree with me on most things.

I'm not really with you on all the hate stuff.  That sounds too exhausting.

Quote
I have come to this board with a few questions, and I hope you will ask me some, too. I will answer as honestly as I am able and will try to treat you with respect and dignity. I have an FYI before I ask my questions. You can say whatever you like, but I will not respond to any post with a personal attack. Criticize my ideas and opinions all you like, but name calling will get you nowhere.

Please let us know if we can make you feel more comfortable.  If you need one, we have a few safe spaces available, so don't hesitate to ask to reserve one.

Quote
My questions are:

Why do so many conservatives say venomously hateful things about public schools and support policies that undermine them?

Like what?

Quote
Why do so many conservatives have the same rhetoric and policies about teacher unions as they do about public schools?

I just don't like organizations that are legally allowed to force innocent people to register.  Unions are bad for workers, employers, and the economy in general.  People should be free to enter into agreements with an employer directly.  I don't see why we need a system that siphons worker dues and funneling it back into Democrat campaigns.  Just don't sit right none.

Quote
If you choose to respond to these questions, thank you.

You are very welcome.

Quote
I also would appreciate it if in your response you would tell me what you do for work. When talking about what I do for a living, it's easier to explain my point of view when I know what you do. I'm looking forward to a very interesting and spirited conversation.

Business stuff and such.

Where'd our Proud teacher go? I was so looking forward to the "spirited" discussion. I think there was plenty of American Spirit in the posts that I read. Maybe the union saw him / her post (no gender declared) and told them to stop.  :popcorn:

She thinks conservatives say venomously hateful things?

Hello, everyone. I'm sorry to disappoint those of you who thought I was chased off by your arguments, but I'm still here. :smile:
Many of you also wondered why it took me two hours to compose my first post and why I haven't immediately gotten back to you. The simple fact is, in addition to being a proud teacher and union member, I'm also the proud father of two children: a three year old and a nine month old. I thought I could write my first post in a few moments, but was called away to put my kids to bed. After doing that and some household chores, I came back to write. By the time I had posted, two hours had past.
Today, my wife had to work and I was single parenting all day. My children's nap schedule did not afford me time to respond to you. So, I had to wait until now when I had a moment to read and give a thoughtful response to what you wrote. I will probably not be able to respond to everything in one post, as you all had a lot to say, but I will do my best to address the salient points that you made. If you felt I ignored your point, please bring it up again and I will try to respond.
First, to this from Hoofer

QuoteYou do not set the rules of this forum, or any thread - we are allowed to post at the pleasure of the owner(s), and can leave (or be booted) at any time, with or without reason.

You are absolutely right. I set rules for myself. I said I would ignore any posts where people take conversation to a level that is about personal insults, not about discussion of ideas. You are fully within your rights to call me names. It's your forum. I have been very appreciative that while many of you had some harsh criticism of public schools, teachers, and unions, you have been respectful. I will extend the same courtesy to you.

Walkstall

QuotePublic schools did nothing for me, but pass me on.

I am sorry that is what happened to you. It was a long time ago. In my experience as a teacher, students who struggle in school are offered all sorts of help. They get free tutoring in school in areas where they struggle by professionals who care about them and specialize in their particular struggles. Teachers work together with parents and community stakeholders to find ways to insure that child's needs are met and that they learn. Because people are imperfect, and institutions are imperfect, this does not happen effectively everywhere, but we have learned a lot more about how to help kids who struggle today.

Hoofer

QuoteWhy are the teaches unions and teaches so against Charter schools...?

Fair question. I guess that my main concern has to do with the promises made by charter schools that aren't being delivered. In my state, almost all charter schools perform worse than the local public schools in their area on standardized testing. Because these schools are not supported by property taxes, they often lack the supplies they need to help their students succeed. The students drawn to them are often students who need the best, brightest, and most experienced teachers to help them. They often face real world problems that are larger than other students. The teachers interested in working at charter schools often are underpaid and young. It's not a recipe for success. That said, I have worked with a charter school that yields great results for its students. Because of its location, many of its students do not face the problems that are typical in many charter schools. I'm not opposed to charter schools that are doing well. I'm opposed to the idea that charter schools are going to solve the problems facing our children today.

QuoteWhy do so many public school teachers say venomously hateful things about home schoolers and support policies that undermine them?

I must confess that I used to be pretty venomous about home schooling. I have moderated my position on this a bit as I have had conversations with the parents of homeschoolers. There are home school cooperatives that can be very effective. The more I have learned about them, the more I can see that for some families, this might be the best option. If you have one parent who is able to stay home and work collaboratively with others to help educate their children, amazing things can happen. I do have some concerns about them.
I am concerned about the accountability of home school programs. It is easier to avoid the testing that is common in our society. Sometimes this makes it difficult to compare schools to what is going on in a home school.
I believe that there are often holes left in a child's education, especially if the home school family is of limited means. Quality instruction in music, for example, can get very expensive. I would be concerned if some really crucial experiences were left out of a child's education. Even as a trained teacher, I wouldn't be qualified to teach my child everything or to know everything that might benefit them.
I also worry about a small minority of home schooled children. Sometimes, parents home school their children to avoid acknowledging their child has a learning disability. Sometimes, parents realize their child has a learning disability very late after significant damage has been done. There is even that incredibly small minority of parents who keep their children out of schools to hide abuse or neglect.

QuoteWhy do so many liberals have the same rhetoric and policies about non-union workers as they do about home schoolers?

I haven't heard rhetoric from liberals that compares non-union workers to home schoolers. Mostly, when I hear discussion about non-union workers among liberals, it is in reference to low income workers who put in crazy hours at several jobs and cannot afford to feed their family. There is a sense of sadness about that and a desire to try to find a way to help them.

Quiller

Quotein Michigan, teacher strikes are illegal. We know the enemy. It is unionized.

That's interesting. Looking at three separate sources that compared state education systems, Michigan always ranked more than 20 states below the state I'm teaching in. All the states ranked higher than mine have strong teacher's unions. See below for source material.
http://www.edweek.org/media/quality-counts-2017-news-release.pdf (http://www.edweek.org/media/quality-counts-2017-news-release.pdf)
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education)
https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-best-schools/5335/ (https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-best-schools/5335/)
https://edexcellence.net/publications/how-strong-are-us-teacher-unions.html (https://edexcellence.net/publications/how-strong-are-us-teacher-unions.html)

supasalesmgr

QuoteI took my kids out of public schools because I found them unresponsive to parental concerns.

I'm sorry that they were unresponsive. Would you be willing to tell me what concerns you had that made you decide to leave?

QuoteJust ask yourself the question as why parents would pay for schooling when publicly funded schools are readily available. It doesn't make sense does it? If public schools were good there is no way anything but very elite private schools would exist.

Actually, I can think of a few reasons. First, some parents put their kids in private schools because they want their children to have their education tied in with their Faith. They are willing to sacrifice some quality in their school to allow for their Faith to be a part of their child's school day. I can respect that choice even if it is different than mine. Second, there's marketing. Public schools aren't always good at telling the public what they do well, but other organizations put a lot of time and money into finding our faults (by the way, I actually think that this can be a good thing for everyone). My district is very good at getting the message out to the community about the amazing things we're doing, but lots do not see the value of this. We have had hundreds of families decide to leave the elite private schools in the area to put their kids into our capable hands. Finally, some people want a really hands on approach or a totally different model for their kids' education than is offered at a typical public school. These are the home school people or those who are looking for a Montessori or Waldorf program and can't find one in their school district.

Hoofer

QuoteHow is it... a Professional, some with a Master's Degree, cannot figure out how to teach the basics, but, an average housewife can do what the Professional cannot?  Without those expensive facilities, just books and a kitchen table, severely limited income (and paying the Professional's salary via taxation) - their students still do much better?

Hoofer, it sounds like you are speaking from personal experience. I'd love to hear your story. If you are making an analogy, I can respond with my thoughts, but I want to make sure I fully understand your point before responding.

je_freedom

QuoteIf you really want to improve education, you will want to read the following:

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/political-discussion-and-debate/leftists-rabidly-oppose-education/

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/library/get-all-you-can-from-school/

je_freedom, I did read those two links you posted. Here are my thoughts. I don't know if I would have taken the union's approach on this issue. I think a class in critical thinking is a fabulous idea. One of the best classes that I ever took in high school was a course that did just what you said you valued: exposed students to ideas and let them make up their mind. If I were a tax payer, teacher, or union president in the school district, I would have gotten behind the course. However, I would have wanted the elimination of the creationism/evolution discussion. All the rest are huge discussions in modern society. While this particular discussion is a huge issue in conservative Christian circles, it doesn't have much traction in society outside that community. It's much like there isn't any serious discussion in America about a single payer health care program outside of left wing America. For the record, I believe in God. I also think that the scientific evidence supports evolution. I can't see why an awesomely intelligent and benevolent God couldn't create the universe as a dynamic, changing place. There's no reason why The Watch Maker can't make a watch that can become an iPad.
:smile:I have to say I loved the second article a lot. There are lots of things we don't understand about each other's views and backgrounds, and I think that your opinion of what is taught in public schools does not necessarily reflect reality.
For example, wait until you hear about what happens in our elementary schools. Math, science, mechanics, and electronics, for example. Despite what you assert, many teachers love these subjects and are very qualified to teach them. Students in elementary school build and test rocket designs and build solar cars to race. They are graded on these projects. I've also seen our students learn about local wildlife by going on field trips to parks, dissect squids, and build computers (the last project was one for second graders). Oh, and our math, which you say is taught in confusing ways isn't terribly confusing. Our fifth graders out-perform the average 11th grader on national standardized tests.
Computer science and computer programming are also very important. I just saw an email a few days ago that detailed computer science and coding requirements for kindergarten through fifth grade. That's right, we require kindergarteners to learn the basics of coding.
Geography and history are very important. Fourth graders are required to memorize all 50 states and capitals, study foreign countries and present on them to their classmates, and look in depth at the different regions of the nation. Third graders participate in an Ellis Island simulation to learn about how people came to this country in the past.
You mentioned foreign languages. We have fully developed Chinese and Spanish immersion programs in our schools. Students enrolled in these programs are easily able to navigate in Spanish speaking countries or China by a very young age, some by the end of first grade. Students enrolling in the English side also have access to extracurricular classes to learn the languages, although at a much less in depth level.
We have fabulous arts programs, too. We have a flourishing band, choir, and orchestra program in our school system. These are curricular ensembles that meet during the school day. The classroom music program that serves as a precursor teaches about music from all over the world, promotes literacy skills, and demands intense cooperation from everyone. Students have an opportunity to participate in a fully mounted musical starting in fourth grade, and often do class plays at much younger ages.  I could go on, but I think I've made my point that there may be more learning going on in public education than you think.
Billy's Bayonet

QuoteSo you want an honest and straightforward opinion and a spirited discussion but you don't want any of the "color" that goes a long with it....sounds like to don't like the brutality of fact, but here goes:

...In short CLEANUP YOUR ACT. When the Unions purge themselves of the extreme leftists, the racketeers, the greedy dishonest lawyers who defend the slimiest of clients and once again become what they were meant to be then MAINSTREAM AMERICA might change their opinion.

Billy, I appreciate your post. You outlined some problems with unions and were very direct. You might think I would be offended, but you very carefully pointed out that there are undesirable elements in many unions. You didn't assume that all union members are evil, selfish people or that we are all criminals. My local union negotiates salaries, benefits, and working conditions so that I can spend my time focused on teaching kids with minimal energy spent on figuring out how I will negotiate a fair wage for my work. They are also a resource for me when I'm trying to figure out respectful ways to deal with problems with administration and other teachers.
As far as I am aware, no one has any organized crime connections in my local. I have no reason to think that anyone at the state level does, either. I never felt intimidated by my fellow union members to do something I don't want to do, nor have I ever been asked to do something illegal. Mostly, the people at the state level inform me of what is going on in the legislature and who to call to support public education.
You also mentioned that union members defend bad teachers. This is one area where, if I were towing the union line, I would say, "bad teachers are a myth" or some crap like that. I think this is a mistake on the part of the union. We should admit what is painfully obvious to the world. There are bad teachers. This is especially true of the incredibly small minority of teachers who abuse their students. Do unions defend them? Well... I guess so. In the same way that the army makes sure that foreign countries don't bomb pedophiles into the Stone Age. They get the protection that all teachers under the contract get. However, part of a good contract for everyone (students, teachers, administrators, community members) are clear rules about what is grounds for dismissal and disciplinary action. These rules include a way to quickly get rid of people who harm children. I can tell you with certainty that if someone in our union pushed for guaranteed jobs for life or immunity from being fired, it would never gain any traction. We want these perverts and disgraces to our good name out, too. We simply make sure that protocol is observed as their asses are kicked out the door and into a squad car. We don't do that because we like them, we do that because there are other, much murkier areas of what constitutes a bad teacher that make having a procedure worthwhile.
I know this post is lengthy. Thanks for anyone who read all of it. Please let me know what I didn't respond to, or if you have other questions for me. I will do my best to post something tomorrow.

Oh, one more thing

Walkstall

QuoteUs much older people must remember teaches don't work on weekends, unless it under the table.

I have never been forbidden from working weekends. I actually have a key to the school I work in and frequently have worked weekends or locked up after the custodians leave at night. Many teachers do the same thing.

You will find if you answer each post separately and address their post only, thing will work for every on the board.  So learn to use the  quote function when replaying.  That way we know who you're posting too.   That way we do not have to keep going back and see what some one said.  It will save you time and each one of us. 

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 11, 2017, 09:38:08 PM
Hello, everyone. I'm sorry to disappoint those of you who thought I was chased off by your arguments, but I'm still here. :smile:
Many of you also wondered why it took me two hours to compose my first post and why I haven't immediately gotten back to you. The simple fact is, in addition to being a proud teacher and union member, I'm also the proud father of two children: a three year old and a nine month old. I thought I could write my first post in a few moments, but was called away to put my kids to bed. After doing that and some household chores, I came back to write. By the time I had posted, two hours had past.
Today, my wife had to work and I was single parenting all day. My children's nap schedule did not afford me time to respond to you. So, I had to wait until now when I had a moment to read and give a thoughtful response to what you wrote. I will probably not be able to respond to everything in one post, as you all had a lot to say, but I will do my best to address the salient points that you made. If you felt I ignored your point, please bring it up again and I will try to respond.
First, to this from HooferYou are absolutely right. I set rules for myself. I said I would ignore any posts where people take conversation to a level that is about personal insults, not about discussion of ideas. You are fully within your rights to call me names. It's your forum. I have been very appreciative that while many of you had some harsh criticism of public schools, teachers, and unions, you have been respectful. I will extend the same courtesy to you.

Walkstall
I am sorry that is what happened to you. It was a long time ago. In my experience as a teacher, students who struggle in school are offered all sorts of help. They get free tutoring in school in areas where they struggle by professionals who care about them and specialize in their particular struggles. Teachers work together with parents and community stakeholders to find ways to insure that child's needs are met and that they learn. Because people are imperfect, and institutions are imperfect, this does not happen effectively everywhere, but we have learned a lot more about how to help kids who struggle today.

HooferFair question. I guess that my main concern has to do with the promises made by charter schools that aren't being delivered. In my state, almost all charter schools perform worse than the local public schools in their area on standardized testing. Because these schools are not supported by property taxes, they often lack the supplies they need to help their students succeed. The students drawn to them are often students who need the best, brightest, and most experienced teachers to help them. They often face real world problems that are larger than other students. The teachers interested in working at charter schools often are underpaid and young. It's not a recipe for success. That said, I have worked with a charter school that yields great results for its students. Because of its location, many of its students do not face the problems that are typical in many charter schools. I'm not opposed to charter schools that are doing well. I'm opposed to the idea that charter schools are going to solve the problems facing our children today. I must confess that I used to be pretty venomous about home schooling. I have moderated my position on this a bit as I have had conversations with the parents of homeschoolers. There are home school cooperatives that can be very effective. The more I have learned about them, the more I can see that for some families, this might be the best option. If you have one parent who is able to stay home and work collaboratively with others to help educate their children, amazing things can happen. I do have some concerns about them.
I am concerned about the accountability of home school programs. It is easier to avoid the testing that is common in our society. Sometimes this makes it difficult to compare schools to what is going on in a home school.
I believe that there are often holes left in a child's education, especially if the home school family is of limited means. Quality instruction in music, for example, can get very expensive. I would be concerned if some really crucial experiences were left out of a child's education. Even as a trained teacher, I wouldn't be qualified to teach my child everything or to know everything that might benefit them.
I also worry about a small minority of home schooled children. Sometimes, parents home school their children to avoid acknowledging their child has a learning disability. Sometimes, parents realize their child has a learning disability very late after significant damage has been done. There is even that incredibly small minority of parents who keep their children out of schools to hide abuse or neglect.I haven't heard rhetoric from liberals that compares non-union workers to home schoolers. Mostly, when I hear discussion about non-union workers among liberals, it is in reference to low income workers who put in crazy hours at several jobs and cannot afford to feed their family. There is a sense of sadness about that and a desire to try to find a way to help them.

QuillerThat's interesting. Looking at three separate sources that compared state education systems, Michigan always ranked more than 20 states below the state I'm teaching in. All the states ranked higher than mine have strong teacher's unions. See below for source material.
http://www.edweek.org/media/quality-counts-2017-news-release.pdf (http://www.edweek.org/media/quality-counts-2017-news-release.pdf)
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education)
https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-best-schools/5335/ (https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-best-schools/5335/)
https://edexcellence.net/publications/how-strong-are-us-teacher-unions.html (https://edexcellence.net/publications/how-strong-are-us-teacher-unions.html)

supasalesmgrI'm sorry that they were unresponsive. Would you be willing to tell me what concerns you had that made you decide to leave?Actually, I can think of a few reasons. First, some parents put their kids in private schools because they want their children to have their education tied in with their Faith. They are willing to sacrifice some quality in their school to allow for their Faith to be a part of their child's school day. I can respect that choice even if it is different than mine. Second, there's marketing. Public schools aren't always good at telling the public what they do well, but other organizations put a lot of time and money into finding our faults (by the way, I actually think that this can be a good thing for everyone). My district is very good at getting the message out to the community about the amazing things we're doing, but lots do not see the value of this. We have had hundreds of families decide to leave the elite private schools in the area to put their kids into our capable hands. Finally, some people want a really hands on approach or a totally different model for their kids' education than is offered at a typical public school. These are the home school people or those who are looking for a Montessori or Waldorf program and can't find one in their school district.

Hoofer
Hoofer, it sounds like you are speaking from personal experience. I'd love to hear your story. If you are making an analogy, I can respond with my thoughts, but I want to make sure I fully understand your point before responding.

je_freedom

je_freedom, I did read those two links you posted. Here are my thoughts. I don't know if I would have taken the union's approach on this issue. I think a class in critical thinking is a fabulous idea. One of the best classes that I ever took in high school was a course that did just what you said you valued: exposed students to ideas and let them make up their mind. If I were a tax payer, teacher, or union president in the school district, I would have gotten behind the course. However, I would have wanted the elimination of the creationism/evolution discussion. All the rest are huge discussions in modern society. While this particular discussion is a huge issue in conservative Christian circles, it doesn't have much traction in society outside that community. It's much like there isn't any serious discussion in America about a single payer health care program outside of left wing America. For the record, I believe in God. I also think that the scientific evidence supports evolution. I can't see why an awesomely intelligent and benevolent God couldn't create the universe as a dynamic, changing place. There's no reason why The Watch Maker can't make a watch that can become an iPad.
:smile:I have to say I loved the second article a lot. There are lots of things we don't understand about each other's views and backgrounds, and I think that your opinion of what is taught in public schools does not necessarily reflect reality.
For example, wait until you hear about what happens in our elementary schools. Math, science, mechanics, and electronics, for example. Despite what you assert, many teachers love these subjects and are very qualified to teach them. Students in elementary school build and test rocket designs and build solar cars to race. They are graded on these projects. I've also seen our students learn about local wildlife by going on field trips to parks, dissect squids, and build computers (the last project was one for second graders). Oh, and our math, which you say is taught in confusing ways isn't terribly confusing. Our fifth graders out-perform the average 11th grader on national standardized tests.
Computer science and computer programming are also very important. I just saw an email a few days ago that detailed computer science and coding requirements for kindergarten through fifth grade. That's right, we require kindergarteners to learn the basics of coding.
Geography and history are very important. Fourth graders are required to memorize all 50 states and capitals, study foreign countries and present on them to their classmates, and look in depth at the different regions of the nation. Third graders participate in an Ellis Island simulation to learn about how people came to this country in the past.
You mentioned foreign languages. We have fully developed Chinese and Spanish immersion programs in our schools. Students enrolled in these programs are easily able to navigate in Spanish speaking countries or China by a very young age, some by the end of first grade. Students enrolling in the English side also have access to extracurricular classes to learn the languages, although at a much less in depth level.
We have fabulous arts programs, too. We have a flourishing band, choir, and orchestra program in our school system. These are curricular ensembles that meet during the school day. The classroom music program that serves as a precursor teaches about music from all over the world, promotes literacy skills, and demands intense cooperation from everyone. Students have an opportunity to participate in a fully mounted musical starting in fourth grade, and often do class plays at much younger ages.  I could go on, but I think I've made my point that there may be more learning going on in public education than you think.
Billy's Bayonet
Billy, I appreciate your post. You outlined some problems with unions and were very direct. You might think I would be offended, but you very carefully pointed out that there are undesirable elements in many unions. You didn't assume that all union members are evil, selfish people or that we are all criminals. My local union negotiates salaries, benefits, and working conditions so that I can spend my time focused on teaching kids with minimal energy spent on figuring out how I will negotiate a fair wage for my work. They are also a resource for me when I'm trying to figure out respectful ways to deal with problems with administration and other teachers.
As far as I am aware, no one has any organized crime connections in my local. I have no reason to think that anyone at the state level does, either. I never felt intimidated by my fellow union members to do something I don't want to do, nor have I ever been asked to do something illegal. Mostly, the people at the state level inform me of what is going on in the legislature and who to call to support public education.
You also mentioned that union members defend bad teachers. This is one area where, if I were towing the union line, I would say, "bad teachers are a myth" or some crap like that. I think this is a mistake on the part of the union. We should admit what is painfully obvious to the world. There are bad teachers. This is especially true of the incredibly small minority of teachers who abuse their students. Do unions defend them? Well... I guess so. In the same way that the army makes sure that foreign countries don't bomb pedophiles into the Stone Age. They get the protection that all teachers under the contract get. However, part of a good contract for everyone (students, teachers, administrators, community members) are clear rules about what is grounds for dismissal and disciplinary action. These rules include a way to quickly get rid of people who harm children. I can tell you with certainty that if someone in our union pushed for guaranteed jobs for life or immunity from being fired, it would never gain any traction. We want these perverts and disgraces to our good name out, too. We simply make sure that protocol is observed as their asses are kicked out the door and into a squad car. We don't do that because we like them, we do that because there are other, much murkier areas of what constitutes a bad teacher that make having a procedure worthwhile.
I know this post is lengthy. Thanks for anyone who read all of it. Please let me know what I didn't respond to, or if you have other questions for me. I will do my best to post something tomorrow.

Oh, one more thing

WalkstallI have never been forbidden from working weekends. I actually have a key to the school I work in and frequently have worked weekends or locked up after the custodians leave at night. Many teachers do the same thing.

"I'm sorry that they were unresponsive. Would you be willing to tell me what concerns you had that made you decide to leave?"

It became clear to us the school administrators were much more concerned with a PC message and indoctrination than concern for individual students and parental concerns. It was not necessarily the teachers, but they had little control. A big part of this began when Jimmy Carter created the Department of Education. I do not believe bureaucrats in Washington know what is best for students in any locality. With private schools the administrators are responsible to parents who pay the freight. The school my son graduated from was not a religion backed school. It had very high standards and 100% of my son's graduating class went onto college. My son barely got out with a C average, yet he was accepted by a large out of state university. I was curious about how this could happen. I asked the counselor  on the orientation trip and she said, " We are very familiar with ------- ---- and inflate GPA's of students that come from there. Now that is a quality education.

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 11, 2017, 09:38:08 PM
Hello, everyone. I'm sorry to disappoint those of you who thought I was chased off by your arguments, but I'm still here. :smile:
Many of you also wondered why it took me two hours to compose my first post and why I haven't immediately gotten back to you. The simple fact is, in addition to being a proud teacher and union member, I'm also the proud father of two children: a three year old and a nine month old. I thought I could write my first post in a few moments, but was called away to put my kids to bed. After doing that and some household chores, I came back to write. By the time I had posted, two hours had past.
Today, my wife had to work and I was single parenting all day. My children's nap schedule did not afford me time to respond to you. So, I had to wait until now when I had a moment to read and give a thoughtful response to what you wrote. I will probably not be able to respond to everything in one post, as you all had a lot to say, but I will do my best to address the salient points that you made.

There are some that drop a comment and then don't come back. So I did chide you a bit ... but glad you stayed. We all have lives besides writing on this forum ... I think. I'm fairly new and would say that you'll find this group very honest and a bit rough sometimes. My advice is to stick through discussions if you find them harsh because some here have deep backgrounds and it's worth the time to mine through some of the harsh surface comments. Soft responses to harsh words sometimes return replies with thoughtful ingredients.

Regarding my experience with education: I grew up in the public schools in St. Louis in the 70's. It was a battle ground; black and white. There were days when helicopters flew in to calm the tensions. We paid to put our three girls through private school and did home school (really cooperative) because we wanted them to get both a spiritual education and the basics. When adults try to keep God and his principles out of the school, what do you expect to happen in the school? We also went private to diminish the rate at which adult topics enter their lives. Of course, we paid our taxes and I did some work in trying to motivate math in the local high school (my background is math / engineering) - that teacher I helped didn't have a chance to teach much just due to the mass chaos of getting about 35 kids in and out of classes five times a day. I could go on, but public schools are broken in so many ways. There are some great teachers and I appreciate and respect them. But there are many that hate the kids and their jobs ... need to be put out. That's another problem with the unions.

I'm not offering general comments at this point. I think this group has given you enough to respond to for now.

Billy, I appreciate your post. You outlined some problems with unions and were very direct. You might think I would be offended, but you very carefully pointed out that there are undesirable elements in many unions. You didn't assume that all union members are evil, selfish people or that we are all criminals.
As far as I am aware, no one has any organized crime connections in my local. I have no reason to think that anyone at the state level does, either. I never felt intimidated by my fellow union members to do something I don't want to do, nor have I ever been asked to do something illegal. Mostly, the people at the state level inform me of what is going on in the legislature and who to call to support public education.
You also mentioned that union members defend bad teachers. This is one area where, if I were towing the union line, I would say, "bad teachers are a myth" or some crap like that. I think this is a mistake on the part of the union. We should admit what is painfully obvious to the world. There are bad teachers. This is especially true of the incredibly small minority of teachers who abuse their students. Do unions defend them? Well... I guess so. In the same kicked out the door and into a squad car. We don't do that because we like them, we do that because there are other, much murkier areas of what constitutes a bad teacher that make having a procedure worthwhile.way that the army makes sure that foreign countries don't bomb pedophiles into the Stone Age. They get the protection that all teachers under the contract get. However, part of a good contract for everyone (students, teachers, administrators, community members) are clear rules about what is grounds for dismissal and disciplinary action. These rules include a way to quickly get rid of people who harm children. I can tell you with certainty that if someone in our union pushed for guaranteed jobs for life or immunity from being fired, it would never gain any traction. We want these perverts and disgraces to our good name out, too. We simply make sure that protocol is observed as their asses are

Good response, you left a few things out that I wished a response to which I'll touch on later, I'll even admit that I may have learned a thing or two about modern teaching such as the focus on science and technology in the formative years. But what does impress me somewhat is your response about Unions supporting bad Teachers, this is almost word for word the same Lament I and former colleagues had about Unions supporting bad cops I had to deal with.

While I am glad that schools are focusing on the high tech science and fifth graders can learn computing code, it still does not address the decided leftist slant to teaching we see permeating our education system. This is the biggest problem a lot of Parents (and Grand Parents) have about public schools and just my opinion again why the rise in home schooling and charter schools. While Faith is a factor it is not a major factor at least in my Grandchildren's case. The whole leftist indoctrination/agenda is. And as I said, Unions are notoriously leftist.

The second problem which to me is a major problem is the drugging of our children who have "learning disabilities", I am very much against drugging of our youth in any way shape or form.

I also have a question for you, do you know of or do you have any teachers who are openly conservative, push for a conservative curriculum or oppose some school policies such as transgender bathrooms etc?  How much flak do such persons get....or are most conservative teachers...."in the closet"?

Thanks

Gotta love union scum defending the very reason Michigan education is the absolute pits. Why does he think the legislature outlawed teacher strikes?

Here's a pair of quotes from Albert Shanker, who was head of the American Federation of Teachers. This isn't cognitive dissonance at work here, holding such opposing views. It's the realization of whose side all unionized teachers are on, and it is never our children.

(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.fotki.com%2F1_p%2Crtffdqftbtsqqfsxbqfqsbrwqdbw%2Cvi%2Fbwwtfrtdqxbrrfwwwfgxwkfkrdkwg%2F1%2F1595431%2F14215112%2Fmitthatpubliceducationoperates-vi.jpg&hash=fe5ba3c496bb94732397104599e04e1b99d87a50)

(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.fotki.com%2F1_p%2Crtffdqfdsksgtqdxbqfqsbrwqdbw%2Cvi%2Frgkswtgtrxfkksksfkdxkkdbqktb%2F1%2F1595431%2F14215112%2Fepresentingchildren450x212x100-vi.png&hash=2c10916f11aff6894050783aa0c518b4eddeb94a)

...And speaking of best interests at heart, last year in Detroit, the feds indicted a whollllllllle bunch of principals in a major kickback scheme.....

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2016/03/29/feds-charge-9-current-and-former-detroit-school-principals/82375712/

You bet those unions are good for teaching kids between right and wrong!

Personal experience has value – but limited value due to localization. There are systemic questions that have far-reaching impacts on the whole. To summarize, below is suggested: 1) an urgent question about current experience, 2) a societal question about who has control over teaching our children, and 3) a political question as to oversight of the educational system. Some of the postings (including one of mine) are focus on personal experience which is good to exchange but less relevant with respect to the systemic questions.

Regarding the value of experience: Proud Teacher is having a generally good experience in the public school. Others, including myself, had had bad experience with public schools and good experience with private school, including home school. These localize experiences show that either experience can be good or bad. Analogy: You can live in a prison and get a good meal. You can have great parents and end up on drugs. But, in general, life sucks for people in prison and well-balanced kids had good parents.

The urgent question is whether the most likely experience for the children and parents is either system is positive or negative in some sense.

The societal question is whether the system is promoting a particular philosophy that a parent would not want to teach our children – for it is the parents God given right and responsibility to teach our children in the way they should go. It is a right that parents get to choose how their children are educated – whether it is via a public school or other option like home school.

The political question is whether the government or a union should be involved at all in the educational system. The Conservative response is that government should be limited as much as possible – not in control of many things including our educational system. That was what the Founding Fathers identified and it was genius because they understood that even those with the best intentions aren't sustained ... corruption will eventually become entangled. The government might offer an option – but it should not come with a mandate. In fact, the government should not control an option because even a good system will eventually fall into corruption. A union can offer support but it should not become a requirement for similar reasons. Ideally, we wouldn't need either the government or unions to supply good educational options for our children.

The evidence from posts that aren't just local experience suggest: 1) Urgent: The majority of students suffer at the hands of public education, 2) Societal: The government has / is trying to take the choice to teach our children out of the parents hands, 3) Political: Government and union control of schools is harmful to the interests of our children.

I'm actually all for abandoning schools and turning them into condos.

Quote from: taxed on June 12, 2017, 08:59:44 AM
I'm actually all for abandoning schools and turning them into condos.

Veterans could use some cheap housing. :biggrin:

Quote from: Solar on June 12, 2017, 11:27:56 AM
Veterans could use some cheap housing. :biggrin:

The structure could finally be put to some good use!

Quote from: Solar on June 12, 2017, 11:27:56 AM
Veterans could use some cheap housing. :biggrin:

You wouldn't put our Veterans in some of those schools. They'd need to be armed.  :scared:

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 11, 2017, 09:38:08 PM
First, to this from HooferYou are absolutely right. I set rules for myself.

I am under no obligation to respond in kind - you already know that.

QuoteHooferFair question. I guess that my main concern has to do with the promises made by charter schools that aren't being delivered. In my state, almost all charter schools perform worse than the local public schools in their area on standardized testing.

Standardized testing is a complete JOKE - you already know that too!   When a teacher spends the entire year trying to get enough into the kids to "PASS the TEST" at the end of the year, where or when is there room for "critical thinking" or "polishing the 4-R's".  Standardized testing does not begin to compare with testing of 40 years ago, or older, of which most teachers (with degrees), under the age of 50, couldn't pass without the internet at their disposal.

QuoteBecause these schools are not supported by property taxes, they often lack the supplies they need to help their students succeed.

That's BS - but you already know that too.

QuoteI am concerned about the accountability of home school programs. It is easier to avoid the testing that is common in our society. Sometimes this makes it difficult to compare schools to what is going on in a home school.

Sure, what's really difficult to compare, going back to TESTING, if the public schools threw out the political correctness & forced indoctrination (which is tested), and reinserted education and tested for intelligence and critical thinking... they *might* be able to go toe-to-toe with the average Homeschooler.  But, that's not going to happen, because public schooling is agenda driven for political correctness.
Hence, I am actually in favor of public schools, since Home Schoolers are the emerging leaders, in vision, intellect, history, STEM, etc.

What is really telling, visit a typical Community College and take a look at the first year courses.  Math, Reading, etc., all basic elements of a 6th grader - these are PASS / FAIL subjects, and they're not just "offered" as remedial courses, the ignorant public school kids are required to test out of, before they can move on.

QuoteI believe that there are often holes left in a child's _{public school} education., especially if the home school family is of limited means.

FIFY (fixed it for ya, now we agree)

QuoteQuality instruction in music, for example, can get very expensive. I would be concerned if some really crucial experiences were left out of a child's education. Even as a trained teacher, I wouldn't be qualified to teach my child everything or to know everything that might benefit them.

You and I both know this is the party-line-statement, and naturally false.  WHOA!  Do you mean you actually teach outside the curriculum handed down to you from the school board?   Any teacher, can teach nearly any subject - if both teacher and student are using TEXT BOOKS.  Without exception, no K-12 teacher launches into the school year, without a carefully designed curriculum.

QuoteI also worry about the majority a small minority of home public schooled children.

FIFY  Don't imply there are Homeschoolers "slipping through the cracks" when the chasm in every classroom has a safety net (just pass 'em to get rid of them).

QuoteSometimes, parents home school their children to avoid acknowledging their child has a learning disability. Sometimes, parents realize their child has a learning disability very late after significant damage has been done. There is even that incredibly small minority of parents who keep their children out of schools to hide abuse or neglect. 

Another feigned concerned talking-point from the educational monarchy.   Oh sure, you'll find ONE, somewhere in nowhere, and *that* becomes the instant example of how awful home educators are - and need to be "regulated" and "tested" to stricter standards.   Honest question:  How stupid do you think I am?  Tell me, why do Public Schools have Safety Officers?  Why is the Internet filled with stories of sex between Teachers and Students in Public Schools?  Why does common knowledge of educating the disabled, escape you?   You also know, the best progress with developmentally disabled is one-on-one, so how is a disconnected non-parent superior to a loving, connected parent?

QuoteI haven't heard rhetoric from liberals that compares non-union workers to home schoolers. Mostly, when I hear discussion about non-union workers among liberals, it is in reference to low income workers who put in crazy hours at several jobs and cannot afford to feed their family. There is a sense of sadness about that and a desire to try to find a way to help them.

(I'm trying NOT to gag - maybe I'll suck down a beer, or in the public educator's world a crisp Chardonnay - to bring a sense of... "feeling" to your plight.)   Really, does it keep you awake at night?  Do you shed tears of sorrow over the disadvantaged, intellectual superior home school kids?

QuoteHoofer  Hoofer, it sounds like you are speaking from personal experience.  I'd love to hear your story.

Again, I question your honesty.

For a so-called Liberal Teacher, how do you manage, knowing so little about your own system, and competing systems of education?
Once upon a time, Critical Thinking was encouraged, exemplified and the motto was, "Question Authority!" - has been replaced with "Rebel Against Authority!"   
Once upon a time, the Liberal Teacher was breathing new-life into a dull, boring text book, with insight and wisdom - that too, has become "Teaching to Pass the Test".   

How do you sleep at night, knowing, the very "system" your liberal education condemned - you have become the vehicle of indoctrination?

If you truly are a LIBERAL, a FREE THINKER, in the classic sense, the only answer is Home Schooling.  That's correct, it's not a conservative thing, Home Schooling is the ultimate home of liberty.

Quote from: topside on June 12, 2017, 05:06:31 AM
There are some that drop a comment and then don't come back. So I did chide you a bit ... but glad you stayed. We all have lives besides writing on this forum ... I think. I'm fairly new and would say that you'll find this group very honest and a bit rough sometimes. My advice is to stick through discussions if you find them harsh because some here have deep backgrounds and it's worth the time to mine through some of the harsh surface comments. Soft responses to harsh words sometimes return replies with thoughtful ingredients.

Regarding my experience with education: I grew up in the public schools in St. Louis in the 70's. It was a battle ground; black and white. There were days when helicopters flew in to calm the tensions. We paid to put our three girls through private school and did home school (really cooperative) because we wanted them to get both a spiritual education and the basics. When adults try to keep God and his principles out of the school, what do you expect to happen in the school? We also went private to diminish the rate at which adult topics enter their lives. Of course, we paid our taxes and I did some work in trying to motivate math in the local high school (my background is math / engineering) - that teacher I helped didn't have a chance to teach much just due to the mass chaos of getting about 35 kids in and out of classes five times a day. I could go on, but public schools are broken in so many ways. There are some great teachers and I appreciate and respect them. But there are many that hate the kids and their jobs ... need to be put out. That's another problem with the unions.

I'm not offering general comments at this point. I think this group has given you enough to respond to for now.

Thanks for the welcome, topside! I have found this conversation very interesting so far. I am very comfortable with a challenging tone and with passionate rhetoric. Certainly, nothing that has been said is much different than what I hear my friends saying to (and about) conservatives.  There are two things I would like to say about what you posted. First, I find that many of the principles I teach in my classroom mirror those that you might find in Christianity. Do unto others as you'd have done to you. Honor your parents. Love your enemy. Share the gifts God gave you, but don't become prideful.  I don't bring up God, but I won't shut a student down if they wish to make a connection between their Faith and my lesson. Making connections is how people learn. They usually get a smile and a response from me that lets them know that I heard them and validate their connection.
The second thing I would like to address is this. I know that you believe that there are many teachers that hate the kids and hate their jobs. I have been teaching for 11 years. I have worked or volunteered in some capacity or another in many school districts in three states. I have never met a single teacher who hates kids. I have met some who were frustrated with their jobs. All of them have left the profession. It's not worth staying in if you hate it. It is too much work and takes too much emotional investment on a daily basis. People who hate the work leave.

Quote from: supsalemgr on June 12, 2017, 04:59:15 AM
"I'm sorry that they were unresponsive. Would you be willing to tell me what concerns you had that made you decide to leave?"

It became clear to us the school administrators were much more concerned with a PC message and indoctrination than concern for individual students and parental concerns. It was not necessarily the teachers, but they had little control. A big part of this began when Jimmy Carter created the Department of Education. I do not believe bureaucrats in Washington know what is best for students in any locality. With private schools the administrators are responsible to parents who pay the freight. The school my son graduated from was not a religion backed school. It had very high standards and 100% of my son's graduating class went onto college. My son barely got out with a C average, yet he was accepted by a large out of state university. I was curious about how this could happen. I asked the counselor  on the orientation trip and she said, " We are very familiar with ------- ---- and inflate GPA's of students that come from there. Now that is a quality education.

A quality education indeed. I hear similar comments from parents about our school system. Congratulations on your son's acceptance to a good college and a good education. Lots of people on this thread have expressed concern about leftist indoctrination in public schools. I would love to hear from everyone who would like to share what  topics/issues you consider to be leftist indoctrination that you believe are being covered in public schools. I have some guesses, but prefer to hear from you rather than jump to conclusions.

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 12, 2017, 08:34:04 PM
A quality education indeed. I hear similar comments from parents about our school system. Congratulations on your son's acceptance to a good college and a good education. Lots of people on this thread have expressed concern about leftist indoctrination in public schools. I would love to hear from everyone who would like to share what  topics/issues you consider to be leftist indoctrination that you believe are being covered in public schools. I have some guesses, but prefer to hear from you rather than jump to conclusions.

P
PC alone is indoctrination, it's not what they're taught, it's what they aren't allowed to learn, let alone discuss.
You mention homeschooling and lack of testing? I'm going to guess, you know absolutely nothing about it, do you?

Quote from: topside on June 12, 2017, 08:21:36 AM
Personal experience has value – but limited value due to localization. There are systemic questions that have far-reaching impacts on the whole. To summarize, below is suggested: 1) an urgent question about current experience, 2) a societal question about who has control over teaching our children, and 3) a political question as to oversight of the educational system. Some of the postings (including one of mine) are focus on personal experience which is good to exchange but less relevant with respect to the systemic questions.

Regarding the value of experience: Proud Teacher is having a generally good experience in the public school. Others, including myself, had had bad experience with public schools and good experience with private school, including home school. These localize experiences show that either experience can be good or bad. Analogy: You can live in a prison and get a good meal. You can have great parents and end up on drugs. But, in general, life sucks for people in prison and well-balanced kids had good parents.

The urgent question is whether the most likely experience for the children and parents is either system is positive or negative in some sense.

The societal question is whether the system is promoting a particular philosophy that a parent would not want to teach our children – for it is the parents God given right and responsibility to teach our children in the way they should go. It is a right that parents get to choose how their children are educated – whether it is via a public school or other option like home school.

The political question is whether the government or a union should be involved at all in the educational system. The Conservative response is that government should be limited as much as possible – not in control of many things including our educational system. That was what the Founding Fathers identified and it was genius because they understood that even those with the best intentions aren't sustained ... corruption will eventually become entangled. The government might offer an option – but it should not come with a mandate. In fact, the government should not control an option because even a good system will eventually fall into corruption. A union can offer support but it should not become a requirement for similar reasons. Ideally, we wouldn't need either the government or unions to supply good educational options for our children.

The evidence from posts that aren't just local experience suggest: 1) Urgent: The majority of students suffer at the hands of public education, 2) Societal: The government has / is trying to take the choice to teach our children out of the parents hands, 3) Political: Government and union control of schools is harmful to the interests of our children.

1): I disagree. The United States has more power than any other nation in the world. The majority of ideas that shape science, the arts, literature come from the United States. This is not to say we have a perfect system. We do not. However, the majority of students do not suffer in public education. They thrive. I do have concern for the minority that is struggling.

2): once again, I disagree. The government allows parents to home school, enroll their children in private schools, charter schools, or traditional public schools. There are online schools for kids as young as kindergarten. I believe that the government does have a responsibility to provide a well funded public school system that can meet the needs of students at a high level. It is essential that we are all well educated to insure a functional democracy, and I think that public education is meeting that need very well, especially in states which have pride in their public schools.

3): The federal government doesn't have much say about what happens in schools. Lots of those decisions are controlled at a state or local level. The union does not tell anyone what to teach. It's members teach children, but if the union put out a pamphlet trying to tell me what to teach, I would throw it out. Then I would write a very angry letter. Here's a thought to consider: a teacher's union's desire is often the same as what students want. Students and teachers both want school to be safe.  Students and teachers both want great supplies and facilities so that learning can happen. Students and teachers both want high standards for teachers. I believe this is why there is a correlation between states with robust unions and public school success. Not because unions advocate for teacher pay, but because the union is made up of teachers who genuinely care about public schools and student success.

I know that a lot of these things are sticking points where we may not be able to find common ground. We have different views about the role of government that no amount of discussion on this forum will change. That said, we do share this common ground: virtually everyone involved in this discussion seems passionate about children learning. We want critical thinkers, students who develop many skill sets, and we care about kids. This is a starting point for a productive discussion.

Not this again...

Quote from: Hoofer on June 12, 2017, 07:29:55 PM
I am under no obligation to respond in kind - you already know that.
Standardized testing is a complete JOKE - you already know that too!   When a teacher spends the entire year trying to get enough into the kids to "PASS the TEST" at the end of the year, where or when is there room for "critical thinking" or "polishing the 4-R's".  Standardized testing does not begin to compare with testing of 40 years ago, or older, of which most teachers (with degrees), under the age of 50, couldn't pass without the internet at their disposal.
   That's BS - but you already know that too.
Sure, what's really difficult to compare, going back to TESTING, if the public schools threw out the political correctness & forced indoctrination (which is tested), and reinserted education and tested for intelligence and critical thinking... they *might* be able to go toe-to-toe with the average Homeschooler.  But, that's not going to happen, because public schooling is agenda driven for political correctness.
Hence, I am actually in favor of public schools, since Home Schoolers are the emerging leaders, in vision, intellect, history, STEM, etc.

What is really telling, visit a typical Community College and take a look at the first year courses.  Math, Reading, etc., all basic elements of a 6th grader - these are PASS / FAIL subjects, and they're not just "offered" as remedial courses, the ignorant public school kids are required to test out of, before they can move on.
  FIFY (fixed it for ya, now we agree)
You and I both know this is the party-line-statement, and naturally false.  WHOA!  Do you mean you actually teach outside the curriculum handed down to you from the school board?   Any teacher, can teach nearly any subject - if both teacher and student are using TEXT BOOKS.  Without exception, no K-12 teacher launches into the school year, without a carefully designed curriculum.
  FIFY  Don't imply there are Homeschoolers "slipping through the cracks" when the chasm in every classroom has a safety net (just pass 'em to get rid of them).
Another feigned concerned talking-point from the educational monarchy.   Oh sure, you'll find ONE, somewhere in nowhere, and *that* becomes the instant example of how awful home educators are - and need to be "regulated" and "tested" to stricter standards.   Honest question:  How stupid do you think I am?  Tell me, why do Public Schools have Safety Officers?  Why is the Internet filled with stories of sex between Teachers and Students in Public Schools?  Why does common knowledge of educating the disabled, escape you?   You also know, the best progress with developmentally disabled is one-on-one, so how is a disconnected non-parent superior to a loving, connected parent?
(I'm trying NOT to gag - maybe I'll suck down a beer, or in the public educator's world a crisp Chardonnay - to bring a sense of... "feeling" to your plight.)   Really, does it keep you awake at night?  Do you shed tears of sorrow over the disadvantaged, intellectual superior home school kids?
Again, I question your honesty.

For a so-called Liberal Teacher, how do you manage, knowing so little about your own system, and competing systems of education?
Once upon a time, Critical Thinking was encouraged, exemplified and the motto was, "Question Authority!" - has been replaced with "Rebel Against Authority!"   
Once upon a time, the Liberal Teacher was breathing new-life into a dull, boring text book, with insight and wisdom - that too, has become "Teaching to Pass the Test".   

How do you sleep at night, knowing, the very "system" your liberal education condemned - you have become the vehicle of indoctrination?

If you truly are a LIBERAL, a FREE THINKER, in the classic sense, the only answer is Home Schooling.  That's correct, it's not a conservative thing, Home Schooling is the ultimate home of liberty.

Standardized testing is overemphasized, but it is not a complete joke. I teach music, so state/national standardized testing isn't a part of my regular work life. However, I've asked teachers in my building how they feel about it. The general consensus is that it takes more time than it should and carries more weight than it should, but that it tells them a lot of information about their students that is useful. Preparing for testing is only part of what teachers do, though. Often times, they design really exciting, worth while, real world lessons that also prepare kids for doing well on standardized testing. Just because we are teaching basic skills does not mean we are abandoning higher level ones. It is possible to do more than one thing at a time.

It is not BS that charter schools lack funding for basic supplies and for teacher salaries. Or, at least, it is not how they end up using those funds. I have read requests from teachers at charter schools begging for supplies that we have in abundance: paper, pencils, art supplies, and musical instruments just to name a few. I wish students were getting supplies that would put them on equal footing with public schools or private schools. Unfortunately, that isn't always happening. It gets even more complicated when for-profit companies attempt to run charter schools.How do you suppose they save enough money to turn a profit?

QuoteWHOA!  Do you mean you actually teach outside the curriculum handed down to you from the school board?

Curriculum isn't handed down to me from the school board. It is designed by teachers with a background in the subject and is constantly being reviewed and changed. I've been designing the music curriculum in my district collectively with other music teachers for 11 years. Even then, the curriculum doesn't take up every lesson I teach. There is lots of room for exploration of areas that I feel it is important for students to learn that goes beyond the curriculum. Meanwhile, the school board has to decide which teacher developed initiatives to fund to improve student learning. Some of them are ideas I've mentioned in previous posts. Others include a program to teach children with IQ's exceeding 145 and a high school that partners with local businesses and nonprofits to solve real world problems and offer students on the job experience before they graduate.

QuoteAny teacher, can teach nearly any subject - if both teacher and student are using TEXT BOOKS.

Text books are a good starting point, but are far from the whole story. I use the textbooks primarily as references to find suitable songs for my students to learn. Rarely, I find a good lesson or two. A text book cannot teach a student to match pitch when they sing. I can. Not everyone can, and a text book definitely can't.
A textbook cannot teach a student proper instrumental technique. I can.  Not everyone can, and a text book definitely can't. A textbook cannot offer critical feedback on performance interpretation or help students develop their own opinion of how a piece should be performed. I can. Not every teacher can, and a textbook definitely can't.

Could I teach a science lesson from a text book? Yes. At best, all I would do is present the lesson effectively, though. I lack the depth of background to really know how to take it beyond, to the point where an indifferent student might look up and say, "wait a minute. This is interesting." That is why specialization matters to students.

I know a former music teacher who now works at a church. Her church has a lot of home schoolers. She has shared her concerns about the fact that the home school children in her music ministry lack a lot of the basic musical foundations of public school students that she sees. I suggested that she offer music classes to home schoolers to rectify this. I don't know if she's taken on this mission, but she seemed very excited about the idea. There are holes left in a home school education sometimes.

QuoteOh sure, you'll find ONE, somewhere in nowhere, and *that* becomes the instant example of how awful home educators are - and need to be "regulated" and "tested" to stricter standards.   Honest question:  How stupid do you think I am?  Tell me, why do Public Schools have Safety Officers?  Why is the Internet filled with stories of sex between Teachers and Students in Public Schools?  Why does common knowledge of educating the disabled, escape you?   You also know, the best progress with developmentally disabled is one-on-one, so how is a disconnected non-parent superior to a loving, connected parent?

A few years ago, you might have been right. I might have been satisfied to find the one example of an awful home educator and close the book. I don't feel that way anymore. I am not an expert on home school, but I have come to the conclusion based on what I do know that it can be done well, and often is. Sometimes it is not, and I'm not sure how those children are helped. The same is true of public schools. However, when we mess up, we're out front. People can see. Is there transparency for home schooling gone awry? I really hope so.

Regarding your comments on child abuse, yes, you can find examples of teachers doing deplorable things to students. If you can't find as many articles about home educators doing the same, perhaps it is because it is harder for kids to turn in their parents. According to the National Children's Alliance, about 4 out 5 child abusers are parents of their victims.

http://www.nationalchildrensalliance.org/media-room/media-kit/national-statistics-child-abuse (http://www.nationalchildrensalliance.org/media-room/media-kit/national-statistics-child-abuse)

Let me be clear: I do not believe that any kind of majority of home educators are abusive. Nor do I believe it to be a small minority. It is a very small group of any set of adults that does these things.  Personally, I am very confident that you love your children and would never hurt them. However, just as it is fair for you to worry about what your teachers are doing, we care, too. We worry about what is happening to children. I was asked what I worry about with home schooling, and that is one thing.

Every child benefits from some one-on-one instruction. Regarding disabled children, they are most successful in their least restrictive environment. For some, that is a lot of time one on one. For others, it is in a social setting surrounded by typically functioning peers most of the day. For some, it depends on the subject area.

A parent's love trumps that of a teacher's. No question. However, teachers aren't disconnected. We care deeply for our students, and sometimes a little bit of distance helps people see things clearer, or gives us the ability to help in ways that a parent cannot. This is why it is really effective when parents and teachers work together.

QuoteReally, does it keep you awake at night?  Do you shed tears of sorrow over the disadvantaged, intellectual superior home school kids?

You misunderstood your own question. You asked me about rhetoric regarding non-union workers and how it compared it to home school students. I told you that I didn't see much comparison between home school students and non-union workers. Then, I shared what the discussion is about non-union workers in liberal circles. it centers around low paid non-union workers, mostly.

I do worry about the vast income inequality in this country a lot. I wonder what we can do as a society to help those who are not in a union advocate for themselves. Many of them cannot live a life where they can offer home schooling to their kids. I think unions can be a part of that solution, but certainly not the only solution. You don't have to believe my sincerity about that, but I am quite sincere when I say that it deeply troubles me. No, I do not spend time feeling sorry for home schoolers. I don't have to. Almost all of them are fine.

QuoteIf you truly are a LIBERAL, a FREE THINKER, in the classic sense, the only answer is Home Schooling.

Free thinking leaves room for many ideas and many possible right answers. There are lots of ways to learn. Home schooling is one way to teach a child. It can be effective in some circumstances and ineffective in others. It is an option for some children and not for others. The same can be truthfully said about public education as well. Advocating for "the only answer" does not sound like free thinking to me.

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 12, 2017, 09:25:04 PM
1): I disagree. The United States has more power than any other nation in the world. The majority of ideas that shape science, the arts, literature come from the United States. This is not to say we have a perfect system. We do not. However, the majority of students do not suffer in public education. They thrive. I do have concern for the minority that is struggling.

The majority of students suffer public education, by far.  If you had to do hiring, you'd know that as well.  Sadly, it's people like myself who are subjected to the horrible education of high school graduates.  I feel sorry for the students who have been misled to take the government school system seriously and put faith in it.  It's a shame that system has support from teachers like yourself.  To put it bluntly, if you had an idea about the crap your system is spewing out, you'd have a different tune.

Quote
2): once again, I disagree. The government allows

"The government allows?"  This is where teachers really go off the rails.

Quote
parents to home school, enroll their children in private schools, charter schools, or traditional public schools. There are online schools for kids as young as kindergarten. I believe that the government does have a responsibility to provide a well funded public school system that can meet the needs of students at a high level. It is essential that we are all well educated to insure a functional democracy, and I think that public education is meeting that need very well, especially in states which have pride in their public schools.

In no state does the public school system meet any standard.  Again, you aren't subject to the crap that is churned out.

Quote
3): The federal government doesn't have much say about what happens in schools.

I'll let the teachers unions and Dept of Ed know, along with the ridiculous subsidies that should be eliminated.

Quote
Lots of those decisions are controlled at a state or local level. The union does not tell anyone what to teach. It's members teach children, but if the union put out a pamphlet trying to tell me what to teach, I would throw it out.

No you wouldn't.  You'd do what you were told.  Unfortunately, most teachers don't have the skills or experience to survive outside of the teaching institutions.

Quote
Then I would write a very angry letter.

You'd have to put your address on it so they know where to send back the automated response.

Quote
Here's a thought to consider: a teacher's union's desire is often the same as what students want.

Incorrect.  Also, I wouldn't really call that a "thought".  That's you attempting to reach and put forth a point that is ridiculous, but may be bandied about by your peers.

Quote
Students and teachers both want school to be safe.

Please stop the propaganda and have a discussion.

Quote
  Students and teachers both want great supplies and facilities so that learning can happen.

This makes no sense.  Especially now, with the internet, there's really no place for public schools anymore.

Quote
Students and teachers both want high standards for teachers.

Again, you're just being disingenuous.

Quote
I believe this is why there is a correlation between states with robust unions and public school success. Not because unions advocate for teacher pay, but because the union is made up of teachers who genuinely care about public schools and student success.

Wrong.  All schools are crap.  You can find the exception here and there I'm sure, but generally it hurts the student.

Quote
I know that a lot of these things are sticking points where we may not be able to find common ground. We have different views about the role of government that no amount of discussion on this forum will change. That said, we do share this common ground: virtually everyone involved in this discussion seems passionate about children learning. We want critical thinkers, students who develop many skill sets, and we care about kids. This is a starting point for a productive discussion.

It appears you don't really understand what education is about, ironically.  If you don't have any experience in life, you can't teach.  In a better system, as an example, a retired aerospace engineer could walk into a school, say "I have all this great real-world STEM experience, and I can teach it to the kids".  The school would say "Great, we'll make room.  Send us your curriculum so we can let the parents and students know."  Instead, like most experienced people who would like to pass their decades of real-world knowledge down, they can't get a public school teaching job.

Public school hurts children.  It robs them of years of critical thinking during a time they should be developing it.  They are indoctrinated with Marxists propaganda where they learn to be good little future public employees and welfare recipients.

Shame on you for your support for a horrible system that hurts our country.

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 12, 2017, 10:53:21 PM
Standardized testing is overemphasized, but it is not a complete joke. I teach music, so state/national standardized testing isn't a part of my regular work life. However, I've asked teachers in my building how they feel about it. The general consensus is .....

You're not a *real* teacher in a public school, in fact, you can be replaced by a fledgling church organist.  You're a Troll.

I was correct to question your honesty, you've misrepresented yourself and much more of this nonsense would only serve to piss off dedicated teachers and honest, hard working, Union members.  This is truly laughable! 

Quote from: Hoofer on June 13, 2017, 04:02:20 AM
You're not a *real* teacher in a public school, in fact, you can be replaced by a fledgling church organist.  You're a Troll.

I was correct to question your honesty, you've misrepresented yourself and much more of this nonsense would only serve to piss off dedicated teachers and honest, hard working, Union members.  This is truly laughable!

I'm not so certain about "Troll" yet Hoofer. Certainly Pollyanna - has drank the cool-aide. In a bubble and not considering the general state of public education.

Proud Teacher (PT) ... so much in your posts I can't even begin to respond.

So how about this. Our fed and states promote public education - it's what we have. You believe it's effective, and even promote the unions.

How about we let it go to the free market. Stop forcing people to pay tax dollars to support public education and let them choose where to put the funds to educate their children? Then all those who love public education can continue supporting the schools and those who seek other options, like Home School or private school, can choose that too. See - we don't need the government to be involved. It should work out, right? I like the idea that I don't have to pay double ... taxes for public schools and for my kids private or home schools.

Oh - and regarding the argument that the poor will suffer which I would hope is probably on the tip of your tongue. Put the unions to good use by having them advertise the need and distribute the funds wisely. Hmm ... but watch for those sticky fingers as the money passes through. I'll contribute to some of the less fortunate in paying a comparable amount as what it would cost me to educate my kids if the collectors convince me I can trust them. Costs per student should be less in a public school than for home school, right? Amortize the supply costs over all those children. 

Let's try it! It can't be any worse than what we have now.

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE good teachers ... and many are very good. I have the highest respect for all good teachers - even more so when they go into the war-zone schools in many of our cities. God bless and protect them! But the current system is broken for many reasons stated in the dialogue in this thread and the unions only make it worse as they promote meritocracy at best. Respectfully, I think you're living in a bubble.

Quote from: Hoofer on June 13, 2017, 04:02:20 AM
You're not a *real* teacher in a public school, in fact, you can be replaced by a fledgling church organist.  You're a Troll.

I was correct to question your honesty, you've misrepresented yourself and much more of this nonsense would only serve to piss off dedicated teachers and honest, hard working, Union members.  This is truly laughable!

How high up in the union is this Lib?  Wow a music teacher.  My wife can do that at home.  Reading, writing, and arithmetic with out this you can not get a good job. 

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 12, 2017, 10:53:21 PM
Standardized testing is overemphasized, but it is not a complete joke. I teach music, so state/national standardized testing isn't a part of my regular work life. However, I've asked teachers in my building how they feel about it. The general consensus is that it takes more time than it should and carries more weight than it should, but that it tells them a lot of information about their students that is useful. Preparing for testing is only part of what teachers do, though. Often times, they design really exciting, worth while, real world lessons that also prepare kids for doing well on standardized testing. Just because we are teaching basic skills does not mean we are abandoning higher level ones. It is possible to do more than one thing at a time.

It is not BS that charter schools lack funding for basic supplies and for teacher salaries. Or, at least, it is not how they end up using those funds. I have read requests from teachers at charter schools begging for supplies that we have in abundance: paper, pencils, art supplies, and musical instruments just to name a few. I wish students were getting supplies that would put them on equal footing with public schools or private schools. Unfortunately, that isn't always happening. It gets even more complicated when for-profit companies attempt to run charter schools.How do you suppose they save enough money to turn a profit?

Curriculum isn't handed down to me from the school board. It is designed by teachers with a background in the subject and is constantly being reviewed and changed. I've been designing the music curriculum in my district collectively with other music teachers for 11 years. Even then, the curriculum doesn't take up every lesson I teach. There is lots of room for exploration of areas that I feel it is important for students to learn that goes beyond the curriculum. Meanwhile, the school board has to decide which teacher developed initiatives to fund to improve student learning. Some of them are ideas I've mentioned in previous posts. Others include a program to teach children with IQ's exceeding 145 and a high school that partners with local businesses and nonprofits to solve real world problems and offer students on the job experience before they graduate.
Text books are a good starting point, but are far from the whole story. I use the textbooks primarily as references to find suitable songs for my students to learn. Rarely, I find a good lesson or two. A text book cannot teach a student to match pitch when they sing. I can. Not everyone can, and a text book definitely can't.
A textbook cannot teach a student proper instrumental technique. I can.  Not everyone can, and a text book definitely can't. A textbook cannot offer critical feedback on performance interpretation or help students develop their own opinion of how a piece should be performed. I can. Not every teacher can, and a textbook definitely can't.

Could I teach a science lesson from a text book? Yes. At best, all I would do is present the lesson effectively, though. I lack the depth of background to really know how to take it beyond, to the point where an indifferent student might look up and say, "wait a minute. This is interesting." That is why specialization matters to students.

I know a former music teacher who now works at a church. Her church has a lot of home schoolers. She has shared her concerns about the fact that the home school children in her music ministry lack a lot of the basic musical foundations of public school students that she sees. I suggested that she offer music classes to home schoolers to rectify this. I don't know if she's taken on this mission, but she seemed very excited about the idea. There are holes left in a home school education sometimes.

A few years ago, you might have been right. I might have been satisfied to find the one example of an awful home educator and close the book. I don't feel that way anymore. I am not an expert on home school, but I have come to the conclusion based on what I do know that it can be done well, and often is. Sometimes it is not, and I'm not sure how those children are helped. The same is true of public schools. However, when we mess up, we're out front. People can see. Is there transparency for home schooling gone awry? I really hope so.

Regarding your comments on child abuse, yes, you can find examples of teachers doing deplorable things to students. If you can't find as many articles about home educators doing the same, perhaps it is because it is harder for kids to turn in their parents. According to the National Children's Alliance, about 4 out 5 child abusers are parents of their victims.

http://www.nationalchildrensalliance.org/media-room/media-kit/national-statistics-child-abuse (http://www.nationalchildrensalliance.org/media-room/media-kit/national-statistics-child-abuse)

Let me be clear: I do not believe that any kind of majority of home educators are abusive. Nor do I believe it to be a small minority. It is a very small group of any set of adults that does these things.  Personally, I am very confident that you love your children and would never hurt them. However, just as it is fair for you to worry about what your teachers are doing, we care, too. We worry about what is happening to children. I was asked what I worry about with home schooling, and that is one thing.

Every child benefits from some one-on-one instruction. Regarding disabled children, they are most successful in their least restrictive environment. For some, that is a lot of time one on one. For others, it is in a social setting surrounded by typically functioning peers most of the day. For some, it depends on the subject area.

A parent's love trumps that of a teacher's. No question. However, teachers aren't disconnected. We care deeply for our students, and sometimes a little bit of distance helps people see things clearer, or gives us the ability to help in ways that a parent cannot. This is why it is really effective when parents and teachers work together.

You misunderstood your own question. You asked me about rhetoric regarding non-union workers and how it compared it to home school students. I told you that I didn't see much comparison between home school students and non-union workers. Then, I shared what the discussion is about non-union workers in liberal circles. it centers around low paid non-union workers, mostly.

I do worry about the vast income inequality in this country a lot. I wonder what we can do as a society to help those who are not in a union advocate for themselves. Many of them cannot live a life where they can offer home schooling to their kids. I think unions can be a part of that solution, but certainly not the only solution. You don't have to believe my sincerity about that, but I am quite sincere when I say that it deeply troubles me. No, I do not spend time feeling sorry for home schoolers. I don't have to. Almost all of them are fine.
Free thinking leaves room for many ideas and many possible right answers. There are lots of ways to learn. Home schooling is one way to teach a child. It can be effective in some circumstances and ineffective in others. It is an option for some children and not for others. The same can be truthfully said about public education as well. Advocating for "the only answer" does not sound like free thinking to me.

Just so you know, I'll be moving this to Miscellaneous later, after you've had a chance to see this post.

I'm not sure you realize this, but public school through the Fed was more about indoctrination and conformity than it was about advancing the individual's intellectual capacity, that was the job of the college if one so chooses, this is why the Fed did what they did regarding standardization, they wanted to maintain a uniformity of ideals and advance American culture.
An experiment that made us who and what we were, but the left has destroyed our former culture, and kept the formula in place to create a culture of?
'Fill in the bllank_________', but regardless, the left succeeded in destroying American culture.
Do you agree, or will you deny what they're doing? Why do you think the left fights so hard against vouchers?

Quote from: The Boo Man... on June 12, 2017, 09:25:16 PM
Not this again...

:biggrin:  At least he hasn't tried to explain why libs get a pass for murdering children yet expect him to be the parent substitute, but won't support any school trying to teach both sides.

THAT is the leftist objection to charter schools or particularly to home schooling, which denies the state the chance to wreck your child's brain, destroy all reasoning power, and subjugate him or her to the interests of the all-powerful state. The real slavery is the union member forced to payt duies fdor a cause hge or she does not support. To hold the job, they must pay those dues. Please explainm why that is not a bribe, a kickback, and utterly corrupt.

Then there's the kiddies.

Every time I read of some college allowing creampuff snivelers their newest safe space, multisex facility or erosion of decent people's rights, the egg here is the college and the chicken's the cluck who blindly allows a Mob of shake-down artists to brazenly extort monthly dues, merely to hold their job.

Administrators formed unions, then the assistants. All of them paying to tell their employers what to do, parasites on our public dime, fearful of offering a balanced education or be ostracized by their peers. Thweir peers always matter more than the kids. Kids do not write performance evaluations.

How many unionized classrooms salute the Flag of the United States of America? How many EVER explain the difference between a Republic for which it stands --- and the democracy leftists so openly wish it would become? Sorry! We're socialists! We don't believe in honest elections, free speech, or freedom of thought! Conform, damn you! We will teach you to know better!

Does any educated intelligent America believe that if schools actually TAUGHT civics and the workings of the Electoral College, we would still have gotten Al Gore playing Supreme Court games, or Hillary Clinton mewling over "popular vote"?

How many HIGH SCHOOLS (say, grades 9-12) require one complete semester of one-hour classes each school weekday on how our Constitution and our system of government factually work? Instead, it's rolled into "social studies" or similar titles, glossed over while talking about George Washington's slaves instead of the terrible risks those same Dead White Males undertook so today's leftists can trash their mighty efforts.

Say there, patriot! When's the last time you had someone in military uniform in your classroom, explaining why that teacher is free to teach whatever she does? Or will she stand proudly at the schoolhouse doors, Democrat George Wallace style, keepin' that horrible reality from their eyes?

The same mob of union thugs depriving our kids of both sides ALSO can't devote one hour every classroom day for an entire semester in grades 9 through 12 to make them better citizens. They are not taught what BOTH parties must know, starting with "the Republic for which it stands" --- we are not a democracy and any Hillary Clinton snivel to the contrary, she lost by legitimate tally and now is just a whining bitter has-been. But that's not being taught either, can't imagine why.

Small wonder today's teachers can't support our military; they're too gutless to defend what we have, so surrender now to avoid the rush.

Ah --- surrender! What results ARE those enlightened leftists getting with that one-size-fits-all garbage? ("Oh, we can't interrupt today's work plan or else we can't stuff their heads with the test answers needed to make ME look good on my quarterly reviews---can we?")

Admit failure? Fuhgeddaboudit, your kid is freaking stupid!

(For Gaia's sake here! Can't these fools just accept it that I failed as a teacher and instead pawned the kid off to Special Education --- who conveniently discover a new Learning Disability every time we graduate too many in the other sub-categories? THAT crowd aren't on the same clock! They don't have tests their kids must pass! Hey you in the back row! Here's what to think about this. Don't question it or make me slow down, oversimplifying until the intelligent kids get bored but I accomplished my goal of reaching all students! Yay me! Can I get a Teacher of the WEAK out of it, maybe?

Ah me, how transparent today's undereducated overweening unionists have become, still claiming to be anything save the propagandists that they are, filling kindergardeners' heads with pervert-tolerance filth while dressing our girls as Muslims to get them ready for the downfall you so openly wish for America.

Why is it not a failure to assume a parent's rights and dispense birth control or refer (or even transport) pregnant girls to an infanticide center? By what moral right does any teacher usurp parental control and yet deserve their tax-paid salary, assisting in the homicide of an unborn American citizen? When's the last time schools stressed ADOPTION over cold-blooded barbaric murder?

Teachers are certainly not shy about undermining the Constitution, promoting degenerates, proflifigacy and liberal lies galore. Small wonder charter schools and home schools are winning --- they teach our kids to win, not just be average.

Well hell since we are on the topic of teachers, students, and public education I guess  some students will just have to get sent back to the
"re-ed-u-ma-cation camp".

Meanwhile the teachers will take it upon themselves to correct this wrong from a student.

Trump logos censored in students' yearbook photos

A New Jersey high school has suspended a teacher who served as yearbook adviser after students discovered that logos on their clothing supporting Republican President Donald Trump were censored from their yearbook photos.

Susan Parsons — a technology/media teacher at Wall High School — was suspended Monday, officials at Wall Township Public Schools told NJ.com. Parsons couldn't be reached by phone Monday, the outlet reported, a message to her district email account was returned as "undeliverable" and a woman reached at her listed address in Wall Township declined to comment.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/06/13/trump-logos-censored-in-students-yearbook-photos-and-faculty-adviser-is-suspended/

Quote from: Bronx on June 13, 2017, 07:38:08 AM
A New Jersey high school has suspended a teacher who served as yearbook adviser after students discovered that logos on their clothing supporting Republican President Donald Trump were censored from their yearbook photos.

Good. The 9th Circus won't hear the lawsuits arising from this.

Facetious as it may sound, it is an American rite of passage that if you want to, you may appear as you wish in your one enduring image of that 12-year phase of your life. Be it a Mohawk or six colors and braids --- it's a tradition. Wear tube tops and later swear you went topless. It's the American High School Thang™.

This however is fraud. The student is buying the yearbook expecting to appear as he/she/ confused actually wanted. The right shyster can earn those kids some fat rewards.

Quote from: Bronx on June 13, 2017, 07:38:08 AM
Well hell since we are on the topic of teachers, students, and public education I guess  some students will just have to get sent back to the
"re-ed-u-ma-cation camp".

Meanwhile the teachers will take it upon themselves to correct this wrong from a student.

Trump logos censored in students' yearbook photos

A New Jersey high school has suspended a teacher who served as yearbook adviser after students discovered that logos on their clothing supporting Republican President Donald Trump were censored from their yearbook photos.

Susan Parsons — a technology/media teacher at Wall High School — was suspended Monday, officials at Wall Township Public Schools told NJ.com. Parsons couldn't be reached by phone Monday, the outlet reported, a message to her district email account was returned as "undeliverable" and a woman reached at her listed address in Wall Township declined to comment.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/06/13/trump-logos-censored-in-students-yearbook-photos-and-faculty-adviser-is-suspended/

Next, they'll prohibit Christian attire like crosses.
While other schools allow:

(https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/trib.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/7/99/799727f3-c106-554e-916e-e8c735d13c80/5108ace560ea6.image.jpg)

http://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/washakie-county-school-officials-ok-gay-senior-s-yearbook-photo/article_255ede77-891b-5faf-8a1f-ebe95ed21a74.html

This was published today and says a lot:

School: You may not recite prayer in the name of Jesus Christ

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/06/13/school-may-not-recite-prayer-in-name-jesus-christ.html (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/06/13/school-may-not-recite-prayer-in-name-jesus-christ.html)

"In short, school officials – in violation of the First Amendment – forced Moriah to censor her personal remarks during the closing exercise of her commencement ceremony merely because of the religious viewpoint of her remarks," the attorney said. "Because of Dr. Rowe's instructions, Moriah was muzzled and restrained by school officials on the penultimate day of her high school career."

The article says that the school broke the law - but, even so, this sentiment is prevalent throughout much of the school system.

Okay, I don't have time right now to respond specifically to everyone, but the basic comments fall under a few categories.

#1. You're a music teacher? That's not a real teacher! Also, you didn't tell us.

I am a real teacher. I have taken the same education classes as all the other teachers, including many of those in private and charter schools. My master's degree is in education. I have answered questions put to me regardless of what the tone of the question was. No one asked what I taught, what my school is like, what students I work with, although someone did ask about the other teachers I work with.

The music industry is a $15 billion industry in the US. I teach my students the basic skills necessary to participate in that sector of the economy. Also, if you want God in your schools, tradition upheld, and patriotism as part of the curriculum, the music teacher is your best bet.

My student's bread and butter daily work is folk music. I don't mean the stuff by Peter, Paul, and Mary. I mean the real old, traditional stuff that has been a part of American culture for generations. The stuff your great grandfathers sang around the fire. If teachers like me didn't teach it, it could get lost and replaced by Katie Perry. Yuck.

I teach every fourth grader "The Star Spangled Banner." Meaning that, for a grade, they have to sing it by themselves and get every single word right. If they don't, they don't pass the test. Then, they have to meet with me at recess, before school, and/or after school until they can do it right. I also teach them the history surrounding the song. It's a story all about our country in a time of war and the United States triumphing. After learning it, they critique different performers' versions. I don't tell them what to think, and they often get very critical of their favorite pop stars when it is not performed with what they consider to be the proper respect.

Reading, writing, and 'rhythmatic? Got it covered. Even though it's not my primary focus, it all happens.

Reading: We read song lyrics all the time in all grade levels. Doing that is one of the best way to help struggling readers get ahead. Not to mention the opportunities for literary analysis of the words.

Writing: I just wrapped up a concert where my 5th graders were pen palling with a choir of senior citizens. I taught them how to write a letter to another person. Not only did I correct grammar and spelling errors, I taught them how to ask questions to keep the conversation going and to value the wisdom and experiences with their elders.

Arithmetic: music is applied math. Counting rhythms teaches children how to count in base 2, 3, or 4. Understanding how those rhythms function in music requires me to cover fractions. We talk about the distance between pitches in a melody. Then, I make them put it into action by performing these pieces. This is not that different from a science project in the role math plays.

Also, choir is a place where students often raise their voices in song to God. In the public schools. I almost always perform some sacred music in my choir. It would be an omission of some of the best music ever written to leave it out. Don't sell music short. It can be the part of public education that best aligns with the values you feel are being marginalized.

#2. You live in a bubble.
We all live in a bubble. Different bubbles. It's getting worse, too. We have reached the point in society where the other side must be not only wrong because they think different than us, but evil. Therefore, we don't talk to each other. We elect public officials who aren't supposed to really work together. When there are problems, like there are in education, we don't even try to see if the other side has a solution to offer which may make sense. We simply tune them out. I'm out here trying to see how the world looks from your bubble. I don't expect to change your minds on much of anything. You won't change my mind on much of anything, either. However, I think that if we seek it out, there is common ground to be had. Even if not, at least we are trying to make America better than it is today, and we take power away from the people and institutions that seek to maintain their power by dividing us. Sometime, try stepping out of your bubble and see what the other side thinks. It's fascinating.

#3. Vouchers
You don't want vouchers in private schools. Here's why. If you take the money, you have to take the students that come with it. Then, you'll have to offer them all the protection and privileges they have in the public schools. That means that if a Muslim child or a homosexual child or a transgendered child wishes to attend a conservative Christian school, you have to say "yes." If they are bullied or harassed and you do not provide what is needed, you will probably be sued. Whether or not they are successful (and they probably would be), they have taken a lot of money you could be spending on the students that you want to be there.

Those who are economically disadvantaged would be worse off than they are now. Many private schools, faced with the costs of dealing with students in poverty, would raise their tuition rates above what vouchers provide. Even for those schools that would not do such a thing, there would be issues.

We are a school district of choice in our state. We get students coming in who are dissatisfied with their home district. It usually goes okay for kids in families who can afford to live close to us and have a middle class background to begin with. They can afford to live in our area or there is one parent who can stay at home and shuttle the kids where they need to go. It is harder for those who don't. This year, I had a student whose family brought him to school from 45 minutes away because they believed we could help their child succeed. The problem is, they share a single car as a two parent family. Both parents also work to pay rent and feed their family. This means their child arrives at school tired, gets home late, and they struggle to do their best to help their child succeed. However, they have decided to go somewhere else next year because the logistics are too much to handle.

If vouchers were the norm and there were no more neighborhood schools, this sort of thing would be happening everywhere. Further, there would be no reason for politicians to feel like they needed to fix the problems that do exist in our schools. They could shrug their shoulders and say, "if they don't like the school near them, they could go to the one across town." Meanwhile, nothing gets better for the kids who need our help.

As I have said before.  Do not bunch everyone's post into one big long posts.  Quote each poster and address that post and then move on to the next persons post.  No one like going back to see who said what.   

Just a heads up.  This is the way it works on CPF.   

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 13, 2017, 09:25:18 PM
Okay, I don't have time right now to respond specifically to everyone, but the basic comments fall under a few categories.

#1. You're a music teacher? That's not a real teacher! Also, you didn't tell us.

I am a real teacher. I have taken the same education classes as all the other teachers, including many of those in private and charter schools. My master's degree is in education. I have answered questions put to me regardless of what the tone of the question was. No one asked what I taught, what my school is like, what students I work with, although someone did ask about the other teachers I work with.

The music industry is a $15 billion industry in the US. I teach my students the basic skills necessary to participate in that sector of the economy. Also, if you want God in your schools, tradition upheld, and patriotism as part of the curriculum, the music teacher is your best bet.

My student's bread and butter daily work is folk music. I don't mean the stuff by Peter, Paul, and Mary. I mean the real old, traditional stuff that has been a part of American culture for generations. The stuff your great grandfathers sang around the fire. If teachers like me didn't teach it, it could get lost and replaced by Katie Perry. Yuck.

I teach every fourth grader "The Star Spangled Banner." Meaning that, for a grade, they have to sing it by themselves and get every single word right. If they don't, they don't pass the test. Then, they have to meet with me at recess, before school, and/or after school until they can do it right. I also teach them the history surrounding the song. It's a story all about our country in a time of war and the United States triumphing. After learning it, they critique different performers' versions. I don't tell them what to think, and they often get very critical of their favorite pop stars when it is not performed with what they consider to be the proper respect.

Reading, writing, and 'rhythmatic? Got it covered. Even though it's not my primary focus, it all happens.

Reading: We read song lyrics all the time in all grade levels. Doing that is one of the best way to help struggling readers get ahead. Not to mention the opportunities for literary analysis of the words.

Writing: I just wrapped up a concert where my 5th graders were pen palling with a choir of senior citizens. I taught them how to write a letter to another person. Not only did I correct grammar and spelling errors, I taught them how to ask questions to keep the conversation going and to value the wisdom and experiences with their elders.

Arithmetic: music is applied math. Counting rhythms teaches children how to count in base 2, 3, or 4. Understanding how those rhythms function in music requires me to cover fractions. We talk about the distance between pitches in a melody. Then, I make them put it into action by performing these pieces. This is not that different from a science project in the role math plays.

Also, choir is a place where students often raise their voices in song to God. In the public schools. I almost always perform some sacred music in my choir. It would be an omission of some of the best music ever written to leave it out. Don't sell music short. It can be the part of public education that best aligns with the values you feel are being marginalized.

#2. You live in a bubble.
We all live in a bubble. Different bubbles. It's getting worse, too. We have reached the point in society where the other side must be not only wrong because they think different than us, but evil. Therefore, we don't talk to each other. We elect public officials who aren't supposed to really work together. When there are problems, like there are in education, we don't even try to see if the other side has a solution to offer which may make sense. We simply tune them out. I'm out here trying to see how the world looks from your bubble. I don't expect to change your minds on much of anything. You won't change my mind on much of anything, either. However, I think that if we seek it out, there is common ground to be had. Even if not, at least we are trying to make America better than it is today, and we take power away from the people and institutions that seek to maintain their power by dividing us. Sometime, try stepping out of your bubble and see what the other side thinks. It's fascinating.

#3. Vouchers
You don't want vouchers in private schools. Here's why. If you take the money, you have to take the students that come with it. Then, you'll have to offer them all the protection and privileges they have in the public schools. That means that if a Muslim child or a homosexual child or a transgendered child wishes to attend a conservative Christian school, you have to say "yes." If they are bullied or harassed and you do not provide what is needed, you will probably be sued. Whether or not they are successful (and they probably would be), they have taken a lot of money you could be spending on the students that you want to be there.

Those who are economically disadvantaged would be worse off than they are now. Many private schools, faced with the costs of dealing with students in poverty, would raise their tuition rates above what vouchers provide. Even for those schools that would not do such a thing, there would be issues.

We are a school district of choice in our state. We get students coming in who are dissatisfied with their home district. It usually goes okay for kids in families who can afford to live close to us and have a middle class background to begin with. They can afford to live in our area or there is one parent who can stay at home and shuttle the kids where they need to go. It is harder for those who don't. This year, I had a student whose family brought him to school from 45 minutes away because they believed we could help their child succeed. The problem is, they share a single car as a two parent family. Both parents also work to pay rent and feed their family. This means their child arrives at school tired, gets home late, and they struggle to do their best to help their child succeed. However, they have decided to go somewhere else next year because the logistics are too much to handle.

If vouchers were the norm and there were no more neighborhood schools, this sort of thing would be happening everywhere. Further, there would be no reason for politicians to feel like they needed to fix the problems that do exist in our schools. They could shrug their shoulders and say, "if they don't like the school near them, they could go to the one across town." Meanwhile, nothing gets better for the kids who need our help.

#1 Music is a great subject - teaches so many skills that other topics don't. It's not usually taken seriously in many schools prior to high school, but is used well in many schools. Thank you for teaching it.

#2 The bubble comment was focused on your experience in your public school - not the general concept you responded with. The good experience in public school you describe is the exception - not the rule. For every one strong public school you identify, I can find ten bad ones. And much of it is driven by the godless approach reinforced by the foundation-less liberal philosophy. And cleaning up the mess won't happen with the government controlling it. Private sector entities can offer competitive products that will bring up the level of all the creeks.

#3 You're identifying vouches with strings attached. So don't take tax money to subsidize schools - let families decide which schools they want to support with their income. A school should be able to decide the curriculum that they offer and parents can send there kids if they value the product - free market offering. Then a Christian school can, for example, identify that homosexuality is wrong according to their belief. If a child who has been coerced to believe homosexuality is normal attends the school, then they need to tolerate the teaching. And a secular school can introduce kids that attend to their arguments for homosexuality - and a Christian who attends would need to tolerate that teaching. Seems natural and logical, doesn't it? So why do we need the government to establish public schools? Why do we need unions?

So I take it Proud teacher is not interested as he is not on page one now.  (https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi888.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac82%2Fjordy_rym%2FOldy%2Fundecided.gif&hash=5c3fd4111b33d4a6dc2271b8c4623c9bb9f51faf)

Quote from: walkstall on June 16, 2017, 05:49:14 PM
So I take it Proud teacher is not interested as he is not on page one now.  (https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi888.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac82%2Fjordy_rym%2FOldy%2Fundecided.gif&hash=5c3fd4111b33d4a6dc2271b8c4623c9bb9f51faf)

And here I hadn't had time to get him to address the UNION side of his spiel. Or the notion that being proud of being in a union was somehow in any way laudable. It is impossible for either Dems or GOP to prove or disprove this, but the "common wisdom" figure I keep seeing is that 40% of all union members (ALL unions) are in fact conservatives.

I'd like his take on why extortion does not apply to these teachers. I'd also like to know by what imagined right may any public employee go on strike, and why the governor of any state in which a teachers strike occurs should NOT call in the armed authority to break the strike apart.

More likely here is, he won't think to look to see if the item was moved.

Quote from: quiller on June 16, 2017, 05:59:45 PM
And here I hadn't had time to get him to address the UNION side of his spiel. Or the notion that being proud of being in a union was somehow in any way laudable. It is impossible for either Dems or GOP to prove or disprove this, but the "common wisdom" figure I keep seeing is that 40% of all union members (ALL unions) are in fact conservatives.

I'd like his take on why extortion does not apply to these teachers. I'd also like to know by what imagined right may any public employee go on strike, and why the governor of any state in which a teachers strike occurs should NOT call in the armed authority to break the strike apart.

More likely here is, he won't think to look to see if the item was moved.

He was told it would be move to Miscellaneous.  He also has set the system up to let him know when some one has posted in it.   I am thinking it's by e-mail. 

Quote from: walkstall on June 16, 2017, 06:05:31 PM
He was told it would be move to Miscellaneous.  He also has set the system up to let him know when some one has posted in it.   I am thinking it's by e-mail.

See my post above.....   :popcorn:

Quote from: quiller on June 16, 2017, 06:10:53 PM
See my post above.....   :popcorn:

Your mother would be proud.   :biggrin:

Quote from: walkstall on June 16, 2017, 06:16:42 PM
Your mother would be proud.   :biggrin:

My mother began teaching in the early 1940s in a one-room country school (ultimately having a 40-year career). Her second such wartime teaching job was near Ann Arbor and a school where famed Scopes Monkey Trial lawyer Clarence Darrow also taught while attending the U of M. Putting it bluntly, there was a high standard to follow there. She did it without whining for a union.

I graduated the year unions came to our school district. Education has suffered ever since, because it all comes down to this ---

A union never protects the kids. Never.

Quote from: Proud teacher on June 13, 2017, 09:25:18 PM
Okay, I don't have time right now to respond specifically to everyone, but the basic comments fall under a few categories.

#1. You're a music teacher? That's not a real teacher! Also, you didn't tell us.

I am a real teacher. I have taken the same education classes as all the other teachers, including many of those in private and charter schools. My master's degree is in education. I have answered questions put to me regardless of what the tone of the question was. No one asked what I taught, what my school is like, what students I work with, although someone did ask about the other teachers I work with.

The music industry is a $15 billion industry in the US. I teach my students the basic skills necessary to participate in that sector of the economy. Also, if you want God in your schools, tradition upheld, and patriotism as part of the curriculum, the music teacher is your best bet.

My student's bread and butter daily work is folk music. I don't mean the stuff by Peter, Paul, and Mary. I mean the real old, traditional stuff that has been a part of American culture for generations. The stuff your great grandfathers sang around the fire. If teachers like me didn't teach it, it could get lost and replaced by Katie Perry. Yuck.

I teach every fourth grader "The Star Spangled Banner." Meaning that, for a grade, they have to sing it by themselves and get every single word right. If they don't, they don't pass the test. Then, they have to meet with me at recess, before school, and/or after school until they can do it right. I also teach them the history surrounding the song. It's a story all about our country in a time of war and the United States triumphing. After learning it, they critique different performers' versions. I don't tell them what to think, and they often get very critical of their favorite pop stars when it is not performed with what they consider to be the proper respect.

Reading, writing, and 'rhythmatic? Got it covered. Even though it's not my primary focus, it all happens.

Reading: We read song lyrics all the time in all grade levels. Doing that is one of the best way to help struggling readers get ahead. Not to mention the opportunities for literary analysis of the words.

Writing: I just wrapped up a concert where my 5th graders were pen palling with a choir of senior citizens. I taught them how to write a letter to another person. Not only did I correct grammar and spelling errors, I taught them how to ask questions to keep the conversation going and to value the wisdom and experiences with their elders.

Arithmetic: music is applied math. Counting rhythms teaches children how to count in base 2, 3, or 4. Understanding how those rhythms function in music requires me to cover fractions. We talk about the distance between pitches in a melody. Then, I make them put it into action by performing these pieces. This is not that different from a science project in the role math plays.

Also, choir is a place where students often raise their voices in song to God. In the public schools. I almost always perform some sacred music in my choir. It would be an omission of some of the best music ever written to leave it out. Don't sell music short. It can be the part of public education that best aligns with the values you feel are being marginalized.

#2. You live in a bubble.
We all live in a bubble. Different bubbles. It's getting worse, too. We have reached the point in society where the other side must be not only wrong because they think different than us, but evil. Therefore, we don't talk to each other. We elect public officials who aren't supposed to really work together. When there are problems, like there are in education, we don't even try to see if the other side has a solution to offer which may make sense. We simply tune them out. I'm out here trying to see how the world looks from your bubble. I don't expect to change your minds on much of anything. You won't change my mind on much of anything, either. However, I think that if we seek it out, there is common ground to be had. Even if not, at least we are trying to make America better than it is today, and we take power away from the people and institutions that seek to maintain their power by dividing us. Sometime, try stepping out of your bubble and see what the other side thinks. It's fascinating.

#3. Vouchers
You don't want vouchers in private schools. Here's why. If you take the money, you have to take the students that come with it. Then, you'll have to offer them all the protection and privileges they have in the public schools. That means that if a Muslim child or a homosexual child or a transgendered child wishes to attend a conservative Christian school, you have to say "yes." If they are bullied or harassed and you do not provide what is needed, you will probably be sued. Whether or not they are successful (and they probably would be), they have taken a lot of money you could be spending on the students that you want to be there.

Those who are economically disadvantaged would be worse off than they are now. Many private schools, faced with the costs of dealing with students in poverty, would raise their tuition rates above what vouchers provide. Even for those schools that would not do such a thing, there would be issues.

We are a school district of choice in our state. We get students coming in who are dissatisfied with their home district. It usually goes okay for kids in families who can afford to live close to us and have a middle class background to begin with. They can afford to live in our area or there is one parent who can stay at home and shuttle the kids where they need to go. It is harder for those who don't. This year, I had a student whose family brought him to school from 45 minutes away because they believed we could help their child succeed. The problem is, they share a single car as a two parent family. Both parents also work to pay rent and feed their family. This means their child arrives at school tired, gets home late, and they struggle to do their best to help their child succeed. However, they have decided to go somewhere else next year because the logistics are too much to handle.

If vouchers were the norm and there were no more neighborhood schools, this sort of thing would be happening everywhere. Further, there would be no reason for politicians to feel like they needed to fix the problems that do exist in our schools. They could shrug their shoulders and say, "if they don't like the school near them, they could go to the one across town." Meanwhile, nothing gets better for the kids who need our help.

http://dailysignal.com/2017/06/16/its-graduation-day-in-america-but-not-for-everyone/

A selected quote from the above link....

http://dailysignal.com/2017/06/16/its-graduation-day-in-america-but-not-for-everyone/

QuoteLittle did I know that more than half a century later, other girls and boys would still be fighting for education equality. Many of those kids are African-American like me, and the families many of them come from are poor and broken, like mine was.

But I was able to attend a better school, and they aren't. Instead, anti-reform forces are blocking them from going to better-performing public charter and private schools.

Today, the nemesis isn't the old Massive Resistance crowd, but a similarly determined cartel of unions, bureaucrats, and politicians. They make a great deal of money from the current system in the form of union dues, salaries, and political contributions.

As a result, they view education equality as a threat and anyone seeking it as their enemy. 

:popcorn:

Quote from: quiller on June 17, 2017, 05:37:20 AM
My mother began teaching in the early 1940s in a one-room country school (ultimately having a 40-year career). Her second such wartime teaching job was near Ann Arbor and a school where famed Scopes Monkey Trial lawyer Clarence Darrow also taught while attending the U of M. Putting it bluntly, there was a high standard to follow there. She did it without whining for a union.

I graduated the year unions came to our school district. Education has suffered ever since, because it all comes down to this ---

A union never protects the kids. Never.

Remember kids don't pay union dues.

Quote from: quiller on June 17, 2017, 06:29:02 AM
A selected quote from the above link....

http://dailysignal.com/2017/06/16/its-graduation-day-in-america-but-not-for-everyone/

:popcorn:

Ever seen a leftist agree that Unions are Marxist and corrupt? Yeah, me either.
This will be completely ignored as right-wing propaganda by our supposed 'Enlightened Leftist teacher'.
Above link compliments of Hoofer.

Oxford Rewrites History Exam to Make it Easier for Women to Get Top Grades.

https://heatst.com/world/oxford-rewrites-history-exam-to-make-it-easier-for-women-to-get-top-grades/

snip~

Oxford University has completely redesigned one of its core history exams with the explicit aim of giving more top grades to women.

Academics at the university – often ranked top in the world for history – will now allow students to do one exam at home, rather than in an exam hall.

The move – immediately attacked as a "soft" alternative – was made because authorities felt female students were getting too few first-class degrees.

Quote from: walkstall on June 17, 2017, 07:03:12 AM
Oxford Rewrites History Exam to Make it Easier for Women to Get Top Grades.

https://heatst.com/world/oxford-rewrites-history-exam-to-make-it-easier-for-women-to-get-top-grades/

snip~

Oxford University has completely redesigned one of its core history exams with the explicit aim of giving more top grades to women.

Academics at the university – often ranked top in the world for history – will now allow students to do one exam at home, rather than in an exam hall.

The move – immediately attacked as a "soft" alternative – was made because authorities felt female students were getting too few first-class degrees.

What!!?!  Oxford has ruined their reputation with this idiocy. Women are already better able to perform in the traditional classroom than men. If too few women are taking top honors at Oxford, they should try to attract the top female students rather than water down the degree.

Quote from: naleta on June 17, 2017, 07:12:28 AM
What!!?!  Oxford has ruined their reputation with this idiocy. Women are already better able to perform in the traditional classroom than men. If too few women are taking top honors at Oxford, they should try to attract the top female students rather than water down the degree.

As they are dumbing down the test for female students.  Would that not also help the men also even more now? 

Quote from: naleta on June 17, 2017, 07:12:28 AM
What!!?!  Oxford has ruined their reputation with this idiocy. Women are already better able to perform in the traditional classroom than men. If too few women are taking top honors at Oxford, they should try to attract the top female students rather than water down the degree.

Oxford accepted draft dodger Bubba Clinton. When the slippery slope began is not as important as the oozing condescension expressed here.

Oh you poor little child, out in the big bad world of hardball academia. Let's bring it down to what we expect is your average level....

:blink:

So what will they do for the top female students that don't need the dumbing down.   :popcorn:

Quote from: walkstall on June 17, 2017, 07:31:10 AM
As they are dumbing down the test for female students.  Would that not also help the men also even more now?

:biggrin:  Why, you evil chauvinist brute, you! Help a MAN? In BRITAIN? Their woman prime minister attended Oxford....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_May#Early_life_and_education

I believe Oxford still adds unearned importance to applications from Oxford graduates (who often enroll their sons and occasional daughter shortly after their birth). Considering how class-conscious the UK truly is, it's their equivalent to our sending congenital idiots to Harvard.

I don't see that changing for the next few generations until the population swing finishes its arc and Islam owns Great Britain. Unless Theresa May gets serious, that part is as certain as sunsets in the West (as well as merely the west).

Quote from: walkstall on June 17, 2017, 07:45:19 AM
So what will they do for the top female students that don't need the dumbing down.   :popcorn:

Offer them teaching assistant jobs, at 70% of what they pay the men.

Quote from: naleta on June 17, 2017, 07:12:28 AM
What!!?!  Oxford has ruined their reputation with this idiocy. Women are already better able to perform in the traditional classroom than men. If too few women are taking top honors at Oxford, they should try to attract the top female students rather than water down the degree.

:thumbup:
Now stop that! We're talking about liberal women here, common sense plays absolutely no part where education is concerned, it's about "Feelings", nothing more. :biggrin:

Quote from: walkstall on June 17, 2017, 07:31:10 AM
As they are dumbing down the test for female students.  Would that not also help the men also even more now?

You assume that the male students will be allowed to take the test home just like the female students. Not necessarily true.

Quote from: naleta on June 17, 2017, 07:12:28 AM
What!!?!  Oxford has ruined their reputation with this idiocy. Women are already better able to perform in the traditional classroom than men. If too few women are taking top honors at Oxford, they should try to attract the top female students rather than water down the degree.

How dare you insert logic into this situation.  :smile:

Quote from: naleta on June 17, 2017, 08:29:54 AM
You assume that the male students will be allowed to take the test home just like the female students. Not necessarily true.

My bad N.  At my age I should not assume.

Filed under Great Moments in U.S. Education....

One in seven adults believe chocolate milk comes from brown cows. And of all places, it's the Washington Compost which says....

QuoteFor decades, observers in agriculture, nutrition and education have griped that many Americans are basically agriculturally illiterate. They don't know where food is grown, how it gets to stores — or even, in the case of chocolate milk, what's in it.

One Department of Agriculture study, commissioned in the early '90s, found that nearly 1 in 5 adults did not know that hamburgers are made from beef. Many more lacked familiarity with basic farming facts, like how big U.S. farms typically are and what food animals eat.

Experts in ag education aren't convinced that much has changed in the intervening decades.

"At the end of the day, it's an exposure issue," said Cecily Upton, co-founder of the nonprofit FoodCorps, which brings agricultural and nutrition education into elementary schools. "Right now, we're conditioned to think that if you need food, you go to the store. Nothing in our educational framework teaches kids where food comes from before that point." 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/15/seven-percent-of-americans-think-chocolate-milk-comes-from-brown-cows-and-thats-not-even-the-scary-part/

In my area, which is 90% rural and gloriously green this time of year, liberals move in from cities and immediately try to shut down dairy or pig farming operations, completely uncaring that it is all part and parcel of the farming environment. They even write whiny letters to local papers saying those big farm machines should be moved only after dark, when liberal airheads are less likely to be bothered.

But whatever you do, boys and girls, don't you EVER say we need MORE religion in schools --- and NOT the death cult of Islam. Whatever you do, don't say conservatives should be allowed equal speech and equal respect while they speak it.

If someone mentions wartime war bond sales, MOCK IT! Leftists hate America! Never let kids say the Pledge of Allegiance! What would parents think if their kid came home actually respecting the country he/she/confused actually lives in?

(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.fotki.com%2F1_p%2Crtfkwbggqtfbtqdxbqfqsbrwqdbw%2Cvi%2Fbrdkksgswxfkggwtgbfxbrtgtfbtr%2F1%2F1595431%2F13696380%2F20170525d765a814_large-vi.jpg&hash=fc7826baf2520b494938d2e45a537b20d33307a0)

A dean (of obvious Asian ancestry) at Yale has resigned after calling whites "trash".

Warning: New York Slimes as source.

QuoteA dean at Yale who was placed on leave after she left online reviews recommending a restaurant for "white trash" customers and describing movie theater workers as "barely educated morons" has left her position permanently, a college official said.

June Y. Chu, who was appointed in May 2016 as the dean of Pierson College, one of Yale's residential colleges, posted a series of reviews on Yelp that were published by The Yale Daily News last month with screenshots of 10 of them dating back to 2015. The newspaper said that the reviews had caught the attention of Pierson students and had circulated among them.

"If you are white trash, this is the perfect night out for you!" she wrote in one review, published under the name June C., about a local Japanese restaurant.

Another review, for a cinema, said of its concession workers: "So what they have is barely educated morons trying to manage snack orders for the obese and also try to add $7 plus $7."

Dr. Chu later deleted her Yelp account and sent an email to the residential college community apologizing, the News said. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/21/us/yale-dean-yelp-white-trash.html

Quote from: quiller on June 26, 2017, 05:20:37 PM
A dean (of obvious Asian ancestry) at Yale has resigned after calling whites "trash".

Warning: New York Slimes as source.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/21/us/yale-dean-yelp-white-trash.html

This is good news. For the second time this week we have two college educators removed for their leftist rantings. There is a message here folks.

One of the best examinations of leftist insanity that I have ever read appears at the blog "The Other McCain," wherein this appears as part of a very long story on the nutjob Dr. Deborah Frisch, PhD.

Take time. It's well worth the long read.

http://theothermccain.com/2017/06/26/the-original-moonbat-professor-update-on-the-insanity-of-deborah-frisch-ph-d/

QuoteNo matter how many Republicans you elect to office, your children will still be educated by Democrats, and some of these left-wing totalitarians are dangerously deranged. Last month, Diablo Valley College instructor Eric Clanton was arrested for assaulting Trump supporters in Berkeley. Conservative students are threatened with violence on many campuses, and are "afraid to speak out" in their own defense. Left-wing students erupt in violence when conservative speakers are invited to campus, and even a liberal professor who supported Bernie Sanders is threatened when he disagrees with the student totalitarian mob.

"Politics is downstream from culture," as Andrew Breitbart said, and our culture is being polluted by an educational establishment that is controlled by left-wing ideologues. Studies show that Democrats outnumber Republicans 12-to-1 on university faculties, the result of deliberate discrimination by administrators who have spent decades working to purge conservative viewpoints from campus.

It's easy to laugh at a deranged nutjob like Deborah Frisch, Ph.D., but what is truly insane is that parents continue to pay tuition to send their children to be indoctrinated by professors who, as evidence suggests, are only slightly less crazy than the original moonbat professor.
 

Worse yet --- when only women are educated, will we still be America?