I have issues with personal responsibility advocates and personal responsibility as well. Before I go into my issues with them I would like to state a couple of things they're spot on about and they are the self-esteem movement and a number of children, teens and young adults being narcissistic today. What personal responsibility is a reaction to an excess of these things. Now, these are the issues I take with them. These issues can overlap with each other as well.
They believe in the philosophy of reductionism meaning they oversimplify everything. Everything is reduced down to what they call common sense. When one oversimplifies and reduces the complexity of a problem one can distort the problem.
Examples:
For example, they talk about working hard over and over again and one has to work hard to succeed. This does have truth to it I have issues with this. What they fail to state is that there are other requirements one has to meet in order to succeed as well.
Another thing, they never define what working hard is and what work actually means.
Another classic example is they will say one has to start at the bottom which implies that there is hierarchy but they never give the hierarchal structure and never define where the bottom is at.
A fourth example is when they state "Today's youth have unrealistic expectations of life and the workplace." The issue I have is they never define what the specific expectations one should have of life and of the workplace.
Fifth, they'll state things that life is not fair but never define what life and fairness even means. They will complain about everyone getting trophies and how this doesn't prepare kids for the real world. Isn't this a form of unfairness though? Because they oversimplify and follow the philosophy of reductionism to what I think is to an extreme, they miss certain contradictions and inconsistencies to what they believe and say? If we are to accept that life is not fair then why do we not apply it to all cases across the board?
Finally, we have an example of a teacher handing out a McDonald's application to a student who failed his math test. The prevailing assumption is that the student is slacking and/or goofing off and is not trying. The student may be trying his or her hardest but is still not getting the material. It could be that the person has dyscalculia or some other mathematics disorder and yes these disorders are real. Another thing, just because someone says a particular statement and it is true, it doesn't mean the inverse of it is true as well.
The prevailing notion is if one goofs off in one's classes and does not applies him or herself and do his or her work they will end up working at McDonalds for the rest of their life and will not be able to advance much further. Even if this is true it does not mean the inverse of this is true as well. The inverse says that if one does his work, is well behaved and makes A's in his classes that one will have a successful life with a good paying job and/or career. This is the prevailing notion that is accepted which is not true. One can still have problems that prevent one from advancing far. I knew of one person who went to college, graduated, and was very book smart. He still ended up working at Kroger as a courtesy clerk meaning he bagged groceries for 15 years. His social ability and social skills was very poor. Another example of this is me. With an exception of my senior year in high I busted my ass and made A's and B's with my parents help. Still, with all of my effort I ended up on SSDI despite my best efforts. Without critical thinking skills to do a critical analysis it leaves a faulty impression on the students who lack critical thinking skills that if one does as they say, does their work, and makes good grades their life will be great and successful. Again, this is not always true.
They perceive obedience in children and teens to be #1 above all else. Because, personal responsibility advocates oversimplify, they do not think through this. Yes, I agree that children can and do act up and misbehave. They can be defiant. All of this I accept as being true. This is one of these cases in which they need to be careful for what they wish for for it may come true. Let's say we have a child who did as they wished and had 100% compliance and did everything you asked of them, no questions asked. I will accept that children may not have sense or wisdom. Now, imagine you have this child who does everything you say down to the exact letter. Here are examples of where this can go wrong.
First, we of course have the Hitler Youth. They did everything their superiors told them to do without question. If they were told to beat someone up, they did. What were the results of this? The results were the genocide of millions of people and the defense various officials gave was that they followed orders. The Nuremberg officials didn't buy that as a defense. What this teaches is that one should be obedient to those whose authority is legitimate by the letter and by its spirit.
Second, What if one's obedience to authority would lead to a dangerous and detrimental situation for one's self and those around you? For example, a child can be admonished for interrupting adults when they're speaking. What if the child's brother was choking on something or there was a snake in the house? What does the child do here? Doesn't safety trump manners?
Certain Assumptions – Why Responsibility advocates are wrong when it comes to college graduates
It may be true that today's youth of both gen x and gen y are narcissists and/or have narcissistic tendencies. A number of college graduates are having problems getting a job especially in their degree. Here was my thinking as well as their thinking. We thought all one had to do was go to college and one could slide into one's field and get a job and career as simply passing one's classes and grade levels. Some of the things that led us to believe this is the self-esteem movement of course that the responsibility advocates railed against. We were told to pursue our dreams and that we could do anything we set our mind to. If we wished hard enough we could achieve it and if we worked hard enough we could get it. The self-esteem movement is another paper onto itself but suffice it to say personal responsibility advocates are correct on this one.
Another thing is that educators, parents and adults would say that college was necessary for one's success or at least very important. A number of us, at least I, assumed that the college degree would be sufficient which is very far from the truth. The college degree may be one of the necessary criteria for success in a field but does not guarantee success.
Another assumption that I and others assumed is that everyone achieved their dream and anyone could achieve their dream. The sad truth is the majority do not achieve their dreams.
https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/childrens-dreams-and-the-facts-questions-for-parents/
Another faulty assumption that students were under was that they had a distorted view of what working hard is, what work is, what earn actually means. In addition, they had a distorted view of the workplace hierarchy, the structure of it and what the bottom means and where it is actually at and how one rises in rank in this hierarchy. In the student's minds they believe they worked hard and graduated and earned their dream just by going to college. They believe they earned their job in their field.
Under these prevailing assumptions it is no wonder that so many college graduates had so many issues. Even if at least some of them were narcissistic and were entitled it was neither narcissism nor their sense of entitlement that caused their issue. They've been lambasted by responsibility advocates but in this case I do not agree that a sense of entitlement is the issue. To understand why, one must understand what a sense of entitlement actually is. A sense of entitlement believes one is deserving of one privilege, product, treatment and anything else without having earned it. The college students believe they earned it fair and square so based upon the definition a sense of entitlement can't apply.
What occurred was this. Authority figures oversimplified and did a form of reductionism towards their charges. This reductionism gave a distorted view as to how things worked in our given technological and modern day society. It never really went into how things truthfully worked and students found out how things truthfully worked by experience which were detrimental on their psyche. When one goes to school, obedience to the educator's dictums and directions are expected without question. Students do misbehave of course but what is generally expected is not critical thought and questioning but absolute obedience.
The students are conditioned not only to the teacher's directions but to bells but to changing schedules under the same grind and doing the assignments that are expected of them making the grades parents and educators expect of them. If their grades are good enough, they go through their successive grades and some are put into gifted classes. Others are put into special ed classes. In addition, it consists of rote memorization of things without any analysis of given subjects. With this being told what to do, where to go, what to read, when to read, when to eat, what to eat, where to eat, being regimented and being controlled and expected to not only to conform to the educators but to conform to one's peer group as well. One wonders why college graduates have and had so many problems. They weren't taught to critically think for themselves and to question the prevailing notions and assumptions they were under and it never would've occurred to them for them to do that.
Personal Responsibility assumes omniscience and omnipotence
According to the Brookings Institute "Personal responsibility is the willingness to both accept the importance of standards that society establishes for individual behavior and to make strenuous personal efforts to live by those standards. But personal responsibility also means that when individuals fail to meet expected standards, they do not look around for some factor outside themselves to blame. Source:
http://www.brookings.edu/research/articles/2009/07/09-responsibility-haskins
Omniscience means all knowing and to know everything and omnipotence means to be able to be all powerful. These are two qualities of the Judeo-Christian God of Abraham and Moses. We are all human with imperfect knowledge and limited control of environment. Even Steven Covey acknowledges this with the concepts of circle of influence and circle of concern. The assumption is if one doesn't do well in American society including getting a job and keeping then it is assumed that one failed to meet expected standards. If one fails to meet these expected standards then it is considered the one's own fault no matter what the circumstances are. This presumes that one any and all of the expected standards are follow-able in all cases.
For example, plenty of personal responsibility advocates will claim that if one follows the law one has nothing to worry about. To follow the law one would have to know each and every single law and the correct interpretation to the laws. In addition, one would have to even be able to conceive that there was a law to follow in particular cases. We have 1000s upon 1000s of laws in the library of congress alone. One has to look at state law, local law and ordinances, contract law, and other laws as well. Another example is leaving early to go to work. One can leave early to go to work and go to bed earlier and circumstances may still happen that causes one to still be late. I can apply the college graduate example again. From their point of view, they thought they did everything correct, thought they worked hard and they thought they were being responsible. In order for the college graduates to have been responsible and meet the standards set down they would have had to know what the standards were and know exactly in specific detail as to how to meet them correctly.
Overall, these are the issues I have with personal responsibility advocates. Personal responsibility advocates follow a philosophy of reductionism that distorts reality. They believe obedience to be number one above all else especially when it comes to children. Personal responsibility advocates are dead wrong when it comes to college graduates.
Finally, what they want is perfection meaning one is expected to have omniscience and omnipotence. One would have to know every rule and every standard and make strenuous efforts to follow it no matter what and no exceptions exist to this. Because of these things, if something occurs with a child or like the cases of the college graduates occur, no serious investigation and analysis is done. Certain hackneyed phrases, words and one liners are rattled off with no serious analysis and thought behind them as to what they even mean.
How sad, how very sad that you are incapable of answering self evident questions to life.
Sad that you need someone to explain what hard work is, but then, if you've never been hungry and had to endure manual labor simply to feed yourself for a few hours, it's understandable.
I was going to parse the shit out of this, but the more I read, the more I realized, you have led an extremely protected life, so protected, that you can't appreciate the simple things in life such as gratification for even the most rudimentary of goals.
By that, I mean working to achieve a goal, such as saving and buying your first bike and being proud of the fact that it's yours through labor, and can be displayed as a trophy, the equivalent of a native youth in the wild making his first official kill, and coming of age into manhood.
Obviously you have experienced none of this, everything has been given to you, therefore you have no way of measuring success, which begins your life of moral relativity.
By the way, I find this a fascinating topic, in that I've never seen anyone admit to not getting the basic concepts of life.
So I look forward to what you and others have to say.
No insult was intended in the least, I just tend to be blunt and cut to the chase on most subjects.
Addendum: My apologies, I hadn't read this in it's entirety, so I'll add one more point.
Yes, you were sold a Bill of goods, a faulty one at that, in essence you were lied to about college.
As a self made man, I figured out the lie of a college education, that the only true education lies with the hard sciences.
Fact is, a high school education is enough for anyone to succeed if one applies their God given skills.\
Whether it be starting out as a busboy, or janitor, anone can learn the basics of running a businessfrom starting at the bottom, learning every aspect of said business, one can easily go into busines for themselves.
I did on less than ten bucks, retired in my mid 40s. A college education would have been a detriment on so many levels.
There simply is no excuse for real world experience. There is a reason those that can, do, and those that can't, teach.
Quote from: cubedemon on June 22, 2015, 11:48:52 PM
I have issues with personal responsibility advocates and personal responsibility as well. Before I go into my issues with them I would like to state a couple of things they're spot on about and they are the self-esteem movement and a number of children, teens and young adults being narcissistic today. What personal responsibility is a reaction to an excess of these things. Now, these are the issues I take with them. These issues can overlap with each other as well.
They believe in the philosophy of reductionism meaning they oversimplify everything. Everything is reduced down to what they call common sense. When one oversimplifies and reduces the complexity of a problem one can distort the problem.
Examples:
For example, they talk about working hard over and over again and one has to work hard to succeed. This does have truth to it I have issues with this. What they fail to state is that there are other requirements one has to meet in order to succeed as well.
Another thing, they never define what working hard is and what work actually means.
Another classic example is they will say one has to start at the bottom which implies that there is hierarchy but they never give the hierarchal structure and never define where the bottom is at.
A fourth example is when they state "Today's youth have unrealistic expectations of life and the workplace." The issue I have is they never define what the specific expectations one should have of life and of the workplace.
Fifth, they'll state things that life is not fair but never define what life and fairness even means. They will complain about everyone getting trophies and how this doesn't prepare kids for the real world. Isn't this a form of unfairness though? Because they oversimplify and follow the philosophy of reductionism to what I think is to an extreme, they miss certain contradictions and inconsistencies to what they believe and say? If we are to accept that life is not fair then why do we not apply it to all cases across the board?
Finally, we have an example of a teacher handing out a McDonald's application to a student who failed his math test. The prevailing assumption is that the student is slacking and/or goofing off and is not trying. The student may be trying his or her hardest but is still not getting the material. It could be that the person has dyscalculia or some other mathematics disorder and yes these disorders are real. Another thing, just because someone says a particular statement and it is true, it doesn't mean the inverse of it is true as well.
The prevailing notion is if one goofs off in one's classes and does not applies him or herself and do his or her work they will end up working at McDonalds for the rest of their life and will not be able to advance much further. Even if this is true it does not mean the inverse of this is true as well. The inverse says that if one does his work, is well behaved and makes A's in his classes that one will have a successful life with a good paying job and/or career. This is the prevailing notion that is accepted which is not true. One can still have problems that prevent one from advancing far. I knew of one person who went to college, graduated, and was very book smart. He still ended up working at Kroger as a courtesy clerk meaning he bagged groceries for 15 years. His social ability and social skills was very poor. Another example of this is me. With an exception of my senior year in high I busted my ass and made A's and B's with my parents help. Still, with all of my effort I ended up on SSDI despite my best efforts. Without critical thinking skills to do a critical analysis it leaves a faulty impression on the students who lack critical thinking skills that if one does as they say, does their work, and makes good grades their life will be great and successful. Again, this is not always true.
They perceive obedience in children and teens to be #1 above all else. Because, personal responsibility advocates oversimplify, they do not think through this. Yes, I agree that children can and do act up and misbehave. They can be defiant. All of this I accept as being true. This is one of these cases in which they need to be careful for what they wish for for it may come true. Let's say we have a child who did as they wished and had 100% compliance and did everything you asked of them, no questions asked. I will accept that children may not have sense or wisdom. Now, imagine you have this child who does everything you say down to the exact letter. Here are examples of where this can go wrong.
First, we of course have the Hitler Youth. They did everything their superiors told them to do without question. If they were told to beat someone up, they did. What were the results of this? The results were the genocide of millions of people and the defense various officials gave was that they followed orders. The Nuremberg officials didn't buy that as a defense. What this teaches is that one should be obedient to those whose authority is legitimate by the letter and by its spirit.
Second, What if one's obedience to authority would lead to a dangerous and detrimental situation for one's self and those around you? For example, a child can be admonished for interrupting adults when they're speaking. What if the child's brother was choking on something or there was a snake in the house? What does the child do here? Doesn't safety trump manners?
Certain Assumptions – Why Responsibility advocates are wrong when it comes to college graduates
It may be true that today's youth of both gen x and gen y are narcissists and/or have narcissistic tendencies. A number of college graduates are having problems getting a job especially in their degree. Here was my thinking as well as their thinking. We thought all one had to do was go to college and one could slide into one's field and get a job and career as simply passing one's classes and grade levels. Some of the things that led us to believe this is the self-esteem movement of course that the responsibility advocates railed against. We were told to pursue our dreams and that we could do anything we set our mind to. If we wished hard enough we could achieve it and if we worked hard enough we could get it. The self-esteem movement is another paper onto itself but suffice it to say personal responsibility advocates are correct on this one.
Another thing is that educators, parents and adults would say that college was necessary for one's success or at least very important. A number of us, at least I, assumed that the college degree would be sufficient which is very far from the truth. The college degree may be one of the necessary criteria for success in a field but does not guarantee success.
Another assumption that I and others assumed is that everyone achieved their dream and anyone could achieve their dream. The sad truth is the majority do not achieve their dreams.
https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/childrens-dreams-and-the-facts-questions-for-parents/
Another faulty assumption that students were under was that they had a distorted view of what working hard is, what work is, what earn actually means. In addition, they had a distorted view of the workplace hierarchy, the structure of it and what the bottom means and where it is actually at and how one rises in rank in this hierarchy. In the student's minds they believe they worked hard and graduated and earned their dream just by going to college. They believe they earned their job in their field.
Under these prevailing assumptions it is no wonder that so many college graduates had so many issues. Even if at least some of them were narcissistic and were entitled it was neither narcissism nor their sense of entitlement that caused their issue. They've been lambasted by responsibility advocates but in this case I do not agree that a sense of entitlement is the issue. To understand why, one must understand what a sense of entitlement actually is. A sense of entitlement believes one is deserving of one privilege, product, treatment and anything else without having earned it. The college students believe they earned it fair and square so based upon the definition a sense of entitlement can't apply.
What occurred was this. Authority figures oversimplified and did a form of reductionism towards their charges. This reductionism gave a distorted view as to how things worked in our given technological and modern day society. It never really went into how things truthfully worked and students found out how things truthfully worked by experience which were detrimental on their psyche. When one goes to school, obedience to the educator's dictums and directions are expected without question. Students do misbehave of course but what is generally expected is not critical thought and questioning but absolute obedience.
The students are conditioned not only to the teacher's directions but to bells but to changing schedules under the same grind and doing the assignments that are expected of them making the grades parents and educators expect of them. If their grades are good enough, they go through their successive grades and some are put into gifted classes. Others are put into special ed classes. In addition, it consists of rote memorization of things without any analysis of given subjects. With this being told what to do, where to go, what to read, when to read, when to eat, what to eat, where to eat, being regimented and being controlled and expected to not only to conform to the educators but to conform to one's peer group as well. One wonders why college graduates have and had so many problems. They weren't taught to critically think for themselves and to question the prevailing notions and assumptions they were under and it never would've occurred to them for them to do that.
Personal Responsibility assumes omniscience and omnipotence
According to the Brookings Institute "Personal responsibility is the willingness to both accept the importance of standards that society establishes for individual behavior and to make strenuous personal efforts to live by those standards. But personal responsibility also means that when individuals fail to meet expected standards, they do not look around for some factor outside themselves to blame. Source:
http://www.brookings.edu/research/articles/2009/07/09-responsibility-haskins
Omniscience means all knowing and to know everything and omnipotence means to be able to be all powerful. These are two qualities of the Judeo-Christian God of Abraham and Moses. We are all human with imperfect knowledge and limited control of environment. Even Steven Covey acknowledges this with the concepts of circle of influence and circle of concern. The assumption is if one doesn't do well in American society including getting a job and keeping then it is assumed that one failed to meet expected standards. If one fails to meet these expected standards then it is considered the one's own fault no matter what the circumstances are. This presumes that one any and all of the expected standards are follow-able in all cases.
For example, plenty of personal responsibility advocates will claim that if one follows the law one has nothing to worry about. To follow the law one would have to know each and every single law and the correct interpretation to the laws. In addition, one would have to even be able to conceive that there was a law to follow in particular cases. We have 1000s upon 1000s of laws in the library of congress alone. One has to look at state law, local law and ordinances, contract law, and other laws as well. Another example is leaving early to go to work. One can leave early to go to work and go to bed earlier and circumstances may still happen that causes one to still be late. I can apply the college graduate example again. From their point of view, they thought they did everything correct, thought they worked hard and they thought they were being responsible. In order for the college graduates to have been responsible and meet the standards set down they would have had to know what the standards were and know exactly in specific detail as to how to meet them correctly.
Overall, these are the issues I have with personal responsibility advocates. Personal responsibility advocates follow a philosophy of reductionism that distorts reality. They believe obedience to be number one above all else especially when it comes to children. Personal responsibility advocates are dead wrong when it comes to college graduates.
Finally, what they want is perfection meaning one is expected to have omniscience and omnipotence. One would have to know every rule and every standard and make strenuous efforts to follow it no matter what and no exceptions exist to this. Because of these things, if something occurs with a child or like the cases of the college graduates occur, no serious investigation and analysis is done. Certain hackneyed phrases, words and one liners are rattled off with no serious analysis and thought behind them as to what they even mean.
It is clear from the two posts I have read from you that you do not believe individuals are capable of taking care of themselves. That is a very negative view of life. Part of your post indicated that a person doing what is right is not guaranteed all positive outcomes. That is life. However, those who do do what is right have a much better chance of positive outcomes.
Quote from: supsalemgr on June 23, 2015, 04:52:24 AM
It is clear from the two posts I have read from you that you do not believe individuals are capable of taking care of themselves. That is a very negative view of life. Part of your post indicated that a person doing what is right is not guaranteed all positive outcomes. That is life. However, those who do do what is right have a much better chance of positive outcomes.
I find this extremely fascinating. He's very intelligent, yet lacks certain thought processes, basics such as critical thought, only for lack of a broad area of experience beyond what he has been taught.
He has yet to enter the real world of obstacles that lead to failure, the very building blocks of man, the experiences that challenge an individual to succeed.
I hope I don't have to literally go into explaining what success is.
Quote from: supsalemgr on June 23, 2015, 04:52:24 AM
It is clear from the two posts I have read from you that you do not believe individuals are capable of taking care of themselves. That is a very negative view of life. Part of your post indicated that a person doing what is right is not guaranteed all positive outcomes. That is life. However, those who do do what is right have a much better chance of positive outcomes.
I don't believe or not believe this. It is not a matter of opinion or belief. It is fact that not everyone is capable of taking care of themselves which can be proven easily.
For one, coma patients.
Two, those who are in institutions or group homes.
Three, someone I know who has both cerebral palsy and Autism. He is wheelchair bound, nonverbal and can't even bathe or potty himself.
Four, those with my version of Autism who doesn't think like you, doesn't understand some of the things you are and solar are talking about because it is a foreign language, is unable to learn it without others guidance, and did do manual labor with example one of mine being the result.
https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/welder/
If this doesn't prove that everyone has different levels of functionality and not everyone can pull themselves by their bootstraps. I don't know what will prove it to your satisfaction.
Here is another example as well.
https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/02/03/another-reason-i-am-unable-to-succeed-in-the-usa/
This even proves that counter to what others drone on about hard work, hard work may be necessary but insufficient. One has to be productive as well. For example, one has to make y amount of widgets in a given unit of time x. One has to be within a certain range of y per x. If not, it doesn't matter how hard one works.
What is self-evident is that working hard is open to interpretation and that it is both necessary and insufficient. Even working hard and productivity combined together is insufficient as well.
https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2014/10/14/american-employment/
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 10:10:08 AM
I don't believe or not believe this. It is not a matter of opinion or belief. It is fact that not everyone is capable of taking care of themselves which can be proven easily.
For one, coma patients.
Two, those who are in institutions or group homes.
Three, someone I know who has both cerebral palsy and Autism. He is wheelchair bound, nonverbal and can't even bathe or potty himself.
Four, those with my version of Autism who doesn't think like you, doesn't understand some of the things you are and solar are talking about because it is a foreign language, is unable to learn it without others guidance, and did do manual labor with example one of mine being the result.
https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/welder/
If this doesn't prove that everyone has different levels of functionality and not everyone can pull themselves by their bootstraps. I don't know what will prove it to your satisfaction.
Here is another example as well.
https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/02/03/another-reason-i-am-unable-to-succeed-in-the-usa/
This even proves that counter to what others drone on about hard work, hard work may be necessary but insufficient. One has to be productive as well. For example, one has to make y amount of widgets in a given unit of time x. One has to be within a certain range of y per x. If not, it doesn't matter how hard one works.
hhmm... I read your blog. It seems that you are trying to tell us to be kind because you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Right?
Quote from: kroz on June 24, 2015, 10:29:19 AM
hhmm... I read your blog. It seems that you are trying to tell us to be kind because you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Right?
If one can't expect love and kindness if one is not the sharpest knife in the drawer I think we can establish what character you and others have. :wink:
Quote from: Solar on June 23, 2015, 05:13:29 AM
I find this extremely fascinating. He's very intelligent, yet lacks certain thought processes, basics such as critical thought, only for lack of a broad area of experience beyond what he has been taught.
He has yet to enter the real world of obstacles that lead to failure, the very building blocks of man, the experiences that challenge an individual to succeed.
I hope I don't have to literally go into explaining what success is.
For an Autistic person such as myself, yes you literally do.
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 10:10:08 AM
I don't believe or not believe this. It is not a matter of opinion or belief. It is fact that not everyone is capable of taking care of themselves which can be proven easily.
For one, coma patients.
Two, those who are in institutions or group homes.
Three, someone I know who has both cerebral palsy and Autism. He is wheelchair bound, nonverbal and can't even bathe or potty himself.
Four, those with my version of Autism who doesn't think like you, doesn't understand some of the things you are and solar are talking about because it is a foreign language, is unable to learn it without others guidance, and did do manual labor with example one of mine being the result.
https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/welder/
If this doesn't prove that everyone has different levels of functionality and not everyone can pull themselves by their bootstraps. I don't know what will prove it to your satisfaction.
Here is another example as well.
https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/02/03/another-reason-i-am-unable-to-succeed-in-the-usa/
This even proves that counter to what others drone on about hard work, hard work may be necessary but insufficient. One has to be productive as well. For example, one has to make y amount of widgets in a given unit of time x. One has to be within a certain range of y per x. If not, it doesn't matter how hard one works.
What is self-evident is that working hard is open to interpretation and that it is both necessary and insufficient. Even working hard and productivity combined together is insufficient as well.
https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2014/10/14/american-employment/
Simply fascinating! And I do not mean that in an insulting way, rather intrigued.
Your autism brings an enlightening aspect to your original post, so discount what I said earlier.
I too read you post "Welder", so I'll let you in on something related that happened to me as a child.
As a kid of 7, my brother a few years older, my dad was fixing the sub-floor under the bathtub which suffered from dry-rot.
He had one of those old collapsible wooden rulers, he took a measurement, handed the ruler to my brother and said make a 3' cut.
My brother took the ruler and started out the door, my dad yelled, take the damn 2x4 with you, what the Hell is wrong with you?
OK, so my brother comes back with the ruler cut off just like dad had instructed him, (That's what I would have done as well).
Point is, as a kid, you take things literal, simply because you have no experience in the big picture.
What my dad failed to do, was hand him the board first, then the ruler, so in truth, my dad was to blame for telling my brother to literally cut the ruler and not the board.
Now that I'm an old fart, the one valuable lesson I took from this was never assume anything, be clear and concise when giving instructions.
It was a valuable lesson, one I used regularly in my own business, especially when dealing with young employees, and in some cases, this was their first job, so to some, taking orders was a foreign concept.
But for what it's worth, I never yelled at an employee or belittled them, that is the worst thing you can do, is to break an employees self esteem, creating fear and doubt with every project they are given.
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 10:10:08 AM
I don't believe or not believe this. It is not a matter of opinion or belief. It is fact that not everyone is capable of taking care of themselves which can be proven easily.
For one, coma patients.
Two, those who are in institutions or group homes.
Three, someone I know who has both cerebral palsy and Autism. He is wheelchair bound, nonverbal and can't even bathe or potty himself.
Four, those with my version of Autism who doesn't think like you, doesn't understand some of the things you are and solar are talking about because it is a foreign language, is unable to learn it without others guidance, and did do manual labor with example one of mine being the result.
https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/welder/
If this doesn't prove that everyone has different levels of functionality and not everyone can pull themselves by their bootstraps. I don't know what will prove it to your satisfaction.
Here is another example as well.
https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/02/03/another-reason-i-am-unable-to-succeed-in-the-usa/
This even proves that counter to what others drone on about hard work, hard work may be necessary but insufficient. One has to be productive as well. For example, one has to make y amount of widgets in a given unit of time x. One has to be within a certain range of y per x. If not, it doesn't matter how hard one works.
What is self-evident is that working hard is open to interpretation and that it is both necessary and insufficient. Even working hard and productivity combined together is insufficient as well.
https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2014/10/14/american-employment/
My post was in no way intended toward folks who may have some form disability. It was a comment about able bodied and minded people.
Quote from: supsalemgr on June 24, 2015, 11:20:40 AM
My post was in no way intended toward folks who may have some form disability. It was a comment about able bodied and minded people.
Yeah, had he qualified his post first, that would have made all the difference.
Like someone posting, they don't understand the concept of color, only to have left out the tiny detail, that they've been blind since birth.
Details are extremely important. :biggrin:
Quote from: Solar on June 24, 2015, 11:31:43 AM
Details are extremely important. :biggrin:
I was in the waiting room at a hospital where some of us were talking about the medical event that brought us there. (We were not the patients) One woman had not said anything and I asked her; "what brought you here?" and she replied: "my car".
I had to sit and think about that for awhile.
Quote from: Dori on June 24, 2015, 11:49:13 AM
I was in the waiting room at a hospital where some of us were talking about the medical event that brought us there. (We were not the patients) One woman had not said anything and I asked her; "what brought you here?" and she replied: "my car".
I had to sit and think about that for awhile.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I know these people...
Quote from: Solar on June 24, 2015, 12:11:01 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I know these people...
They walk among us. :lol: :lol:
Quote from: Dori on June 24, 2015, 11:49:13 AM
I was in the waiting room at a hospital where some of us were talking about the medical event that brought us there. (We were not the patients) One woman had not said anything and I asked her; "what brought you here?" and she replied: "my car".
I had to sit and think about that for awhile.
Well she may have had Autism as well. If I didn't think about the subtext, that would've been my answer as well. I still have problems with literalism such as that.
It is one of the reasons I have problems with functioning.
If something is vague, I have issues.
Let's say I'm told to put a pot of water on the opposite side of the stove and the pot is on the (front, right) eye. I'm looking this as I'm looking at a Cartesian plane. Problem: which axis do I apply it to? Is left opposite from right, back opposite from front or do I consider both axis's? How do I apply opposite in this case since opposite is open to interpretation?
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 10:42:00 AM
If one can't expect love and kindness if one is not the sharpest knife in the drawer I think we can establish what character you and others have. :wink:
Kindness is always in order here on the forum. However, your original post was short on the facts and brought about an unwanted response. Had you been up front with the facts you would have been given different responses.
When we didn't say what you thought was appropriate, you lashed out at us. We assume our members have a normal level of mental acuity. You should have warned us up front! :wink:
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 12:53:37 PM
Well she may have had Autism as well. If I didn't think about the subtext, that would've been my answer as well. I still have problems with literalism such as that.
It is one of the reasons I have problems with functioning.
If something is vague, I have issues.
Let's say I'm told to put a pot of water on the opposite side of the stove and the pot is on the (front, right) eye. I'm looking this as I'm looking at a Cartesian plane. Problem: which axis do I apply it to? Is left opposite from right, back opposite from front or do I consider both axis's? How do I apply opposite in this case since opposite is open to interpretation?
:lol: Sorry but you need to get out in the real world more. You keep making mountains out of a molehills. You must have had a very sheltered childhood. One that someone did your thinking for you. :ohmy:
Life has it's up and downs, that is what makes it fun.
Quote from: walkstall on June 24, 2015, 01:07:03 PM
:lol: Sorry but you need to get out in the real world more. You keep making mountains out of a molehills. You must have had a very sheltered childhood. One that someone did your thinking for you. :ohmy:
Life has it's up and downs, that is what makes it fun.
Yeah, sometimes you just have to laugh at the absurdity of life and move on.
I know I do, it's the only way I get through each day I open Drudge, only to discover another Marxist insanity, such as the Confederate flag, or a myriad of stupid ploys they pull.
Then to top it off, the GOP concedes every time and lets these freaks of humanity have their childish way.
I can't wait till 2017 when the adults takeover.
Quote from: walkstall on June 24, 2015, 12:46:14 PM
They walk among us. :lol: :lol:
My mom. She was like this a lot of the time.
She couldn't grasp the concept of batteries going dead, since the package expiration date said they were good for ten years.
"I just put them in a year ago, and they're dead"?
Mom, they only last ten years if you don't use them.
"Well why don't they tell you that on the package?"
Extremely smart woman, I mean really really smart, but commonsense was not one of her better qualities.
Love yaa mom, RIP.
Quote from: Solar on June 24, 2015, 01:37:20 PM
My mom. She was like this a lot of the time.
She couldn't grasp the concept of batteries going dead, since the package expiration date said they were good for ten years.
"I just put them in a year ago, and they're dead"?
Mom, they only last ten years if you don't use them.
"Well why don't they tell you that on the package?"
Extremely smart woman, I mean really really smart, but commonsense was not one of her better qualities.
Love yaa mom, RIP.
Extremely bright people sometimes lack a certain level of common sense. Weird but true!
I suppose they are too focused on the upper shelf to see the cookies on the bottom shelf! :laugh:
Quote from: kroz on June 24, 2015, 01:45:05 PM
Extremely bright people sometimes lack a certain level of common sense. Weird but true!
I suppose they are too focused on the upper shelf to see the cookies on the bottom shelf! :laugh:
Good analogy, she often missed the simplest of concepts, instead, taking the myopic view and missing the big picture.
Quote from: Solar on June 24, 2015, 01:37:20 PM
My mom. She was like this a lot of the time.
She couldn't grasp the concept of batteries going dead, since the package expiration date said they were good for ten years.
"I just put them in a year ago, and they're dead"?
Mom, they only last ten years if you don't use them.
"Well why don't they tell you that on the package?"
Extremely smart woman, I mean really really smart, but commonsense was not one of her better qualities.
Love yaa mom, RIP.
This is so ironic because I would've interpreted it the same exact way. I would've asked why don't they tell you as well.
By the way, I'm sorry for your loss my friend.
Quote from: kroz on June 24, 2015, 01:45:05 PM
Extremely bright people sometimes lack a certain level of common sense. Weird but true!
I suppose they are too focused on the upper shelf to see the cookies on the bottom shelf! :laugh:
If I make myself be upside down, what really is the top and bottom? In space, would there be a top and bottom? I guess it depends upon perspective.
Quote from: Solar on June 24, 2015, 01:37:20 PM
My mom. She was like this a lot of the time.
She couldn't grasp the concept of batteries going dead, since the package expiration date said they were good for ten years.
"I just put them in a year ago, and they're dead"?
Mom, they only last ten years if you don't use them.
"Well why don't they tell you that on the package?"
Extremely smart woman, I mean really really smart, but commonsense was not one of her better qualities.
Love yaa mom, RIP.
My wife to this day has her moments. Some days you have to dot all your i's and cross all your t's when talking with her. She can not look at a news paper with out tell me all the mistakes in the way they write each article. She is a grammar queen, when I go into town on Monday's and Friday's I get her 2 papers. She tells me ever thing that's wrong in each article. My kids got A's in there home work :lol: she would not let them take in something that was not worded right. As it would make her look bad as a mom.
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 02:27:42 PM
If I make myself be upside down, what really is the top and bottom? In space, would there be a top and bottom? I guess it depends upon perspective.
Context is always King!
Every situation must be considered in the context of surrounding circumstances and historical data .... just to name a couple. A wise person thinks before they speak, which gives them opportunity to contemplate the correct expression of their thought.
Quote from: kroz on June 24, 2015, 02:51:19 PM
Context is always King!
Every situation must be considered in the context of surrounding circumstances and historical data .... just to name a couple. A wise person thinks before they speak, which gives them opportunity to contemplate the correct expression of their thought.
I'll agree with this.
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 12:53:37 PM
Well she may have had Autism as well. If I didn't think about the subtext, that would've been my answer as well. I still have problems with literalism such as that.
It is one of the reasons I have problems with functioning.
If something is vague, I have issues.
Let's say I'm told to put a pot of water on the opposite side of the stove and the pot is on the (front, right) eye. I'm looking this as I'm looking at a Cartesian plane. Problem: which axis do I apply it to? Is left opposite from right, back opposite from front or do I consider both axis's? How do I apply opposite in this case since opposite is open to interpretation?
I would probably have moved the pot to the front left. But even if you moved it to the back, would it have really mattered? Some things in life like that aren't worth worrying about.
I think your too hard on yourself. In a way, there is a certain kind of sweet honesty, in being literal. I'm wondering if some of your frustration isn't because someone in your life is, or was, being too critical, knowing that you do think this way.
Quote from: Dori on June 24, 2015, 03:42:39 PM
I would probably have moved the pot to the front left. But even if you moved it to the back, would it have really mattered? Some things in life like that aren't worth worrying about.
I think your too hard on yourself. In a way, there is a certain kind of sweet honesty, in being literal. I'm wondering if some of your frustration isn't because someone in your life is, or was, being too critical, knowing that you do think this way.
When I take a step back, and when I really think about it compared to other things, it would not have mattered. You're right. At the time, my mind was locked and froze up.
By the way, I like your username.
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 02:21:42 PM
This is so ironic because I would've interpreted it the same exact way. I would've asked why don't they tell you as well.
By the way, I'm sorry for your loss my friend.
:lol:
You and she would have had some very interesting conversations for certain. :biggrin:
And thanx, Dad had just died at 93, and she lasted another 6 months.
They had quite the life together....
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 02:27:42 PM
If I make myself be upside down, what really is the top and bottom? In space, would there be a top and bottom? I guess it depends upon perspective.
In space, there is no up or down technically speaking, but regardless of position, your head is always the top, assuming you're in space, that is.
If on earth, and you're standing on your head, your feet would be the top.
Quote from: Dori on June 24, 2015, 03:42:39 PM
I would probably have moved the pot to the front left. But even if you moved it to the back, would it have really mattered? Some things in life like that aren't worth worrying about.
I think your too hard on yourself. In a way, there is a certain kind of sweet honesty, in being literal. I'm wondering if some of your frustration isn't because someone in your life is, or was, being too critical, knowing that you do think this way.
I agree, and well said.
Quote from: walkstall on June 24, 2015, 02:41:13 PM
My wife to this day has her moments. Some days you have to dot all your i's and cross all your t's when talking with her. She can not look at a news paper with out tell me all the mistakes in the way they write each article. She is a grammar queen, when I go into town on Monday's and Friday's I get her 2 papers. She tells me ever thing that's wrong in each article. My kids got A's in there home work :lol: she would not let them take in something that was not worded right. As it would make her look bad as a mom.
Yeah, my mom was emphatic about grammar, always correcting us. She hated the paper for this reason, she'd miss the point of the article due to poor structure, if it wasn't perfect, she couldn't understand the premise of what they were saying.
I'm a bit like this as well, if someone uses poor context, I literally quit reading their post, it's like deciphering code to my mind.
Solar
If you don't mind, I would like to get back to the original topic. I would like to make a comment about the idea of common sense which has been brought up to me. Common sense assumes that our experiences and our interpretation of our experiences is similar. Therein lies the problem. This is not always true.
Coming from this and my Autism as well, I have no clue as to what these terms even mean: real world and starting at the bottom.
In order for one to start at the bottom one has to know where this bottom is at. For example, let's say one wants and desires to be a programmer? To achieve this position, how does one do this? Where is the bottom in the hierarchy? Imagine we have a hierarchical chart. What are the levels that one must achieve to do this and what are specific and concrete steps that one must do to achieve these levels?
Does one go to college and get an IT degree with an emphasis in Software Development and slide into a job just like that or is there more one must do? What is the criteria that one must satisfy to become a programmer and how does one achieve this criteria?
What are the specific, absolute, correct, detailed instructions that one must do to achieve a programmer position in any company whatsoever?
I've been told to go out into the real world? What does this mean exactly in specific and concrete detail? Do you mean American society? Do you mean I must socialize with other people?
Are children literally supposed to be 100% obedient to their parents and obey them 100%? What does it mean to honor one's father and mother? What if a parent is a pedophile? What if a parent encourages a child to steal? Is the child allowed to disobey? If a parent says not to interrupt adults when they're speaking is this ironclad and absolute or are there exceptions? For example, what if a child's brother is choking? Is the child allowed to interrupt adults when they're speaking in this type of situation?
What exactly is the absolute and correct way that one must go in concrete and specific detail?
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 05:36:38 PM
Solar
If you don't mind, I would like to get back to the original topic. I would like to make a comment about the idea of common sense which has been brought up to me. Common sense assumes that our experiences and our interpretation of our experiences is similar. Therein lies the problem. This is not always true.
Common sense is knowing not to step out in front of an oncoming car to cross the street.
Critical thinking would be closer to finding an intersection with a light.
Not great examples, but they'll suffice
QuoteComing from this and my Autism as well, I have no clue as to what these terms even mean: real world and starting at the bottom.
Starting at the bottom of any job, is usually the entry level position, from gopher, to sweeping floors. Once they see you are a capable worker, thorough and fast, they find out your skill set and interests and try and fit you to a job.
Once placed within the company as part of the inner workings of the business, you gain "real world" experience, so if you decide to look for a new job, you have the qualifications (Real World Experience) to move right into the new job with little training, something employers look for.
QuoteIn order for one to start at the bottom one has to know where this bottom is at. For example, let's say one wants and desires to be a programmer? To achieve this position, how does one do this? Where is the bottom in the hierarchy? Imagine we have a hierarchical chart. What are the levels that one must achieve to do this and what are specific and concrete steps that one must do to achieve these levels?
This is Taxed area of expertise, but to briefly answer, programming is wide open, from corporate, to freelance.
There really isn't a qualification in thois arena, since many kids today come out of high school with an undestanding of programming.
QuoteDoes one go to college and get an IT degree with an emphasis in Software Development and slide into a job just like that or is there more one must do? What is the criteria that one must satisfy to become a programmer and how does one achieve this criteria?
What are the specific, absolute, correct, detailed instructions that one must do to achieve a programmer position in any company whatsoever?
I'd suggest a tech school. Cheaper, and you'll be done in short, possibly less than two years if you really apply yourself.
But I would first find out who's hiring, explain your passion for learning their trade, tell them that you've done the research and found they were the business you found most appealing, and that you're willing to do whatever it takes to get the job.
QuoteI've been told to go out into the real world? What does this mean exactly in specific and concrete detail? Do you mean American society? Do you mean I must socialize with other people?
In short. Yes. As I stated above, go out and ask employers what it takes to get hired. Show enthusiasm, make them aware you want to work fore them, that you do not move around much and want to be stable.
QuoteAre children literally supposed to be 100% obedient to their parents and obey them 100%?
No.
QuoteWhat does it mean to honor one's father and mother?
Don't bring same to the family.
QuoteWhat if a parent is a pedophile?
Get evidence and contact the DA.
QuoteWhat if a parent encourages a child to steal?
Same as above.
QuoteIs the child allowed to disobey?
Of course, if the order is immoral or illegal.
QuoteIf a parent says not to interrupt adults when they're speaking is this ironclad and absolute or are there exceptions?
For example, what if a child's brother is choking? Is the child allowed to interrupt adults when they're speaking in this type of situation?
What exactly is the absolute and correct way that one must go in concrete and specific detail?
Of course. This is where critical thinking kicks in. Lets say the house is on fire, or someone is breaking into this house with a gun, or someone is being murdered.
Orrrr, you're dying. What is more important to the adult, their meaningless conversation, or your life.
What do you suppose the answer is? Put yourself in their place, where you're talking to someone and someone comes to you and they are bleeding profusely and only have moments to live.
Do you keep talking and let them die, or do you stop and save their life?
So, when a college student graduates like but not limited to a nursing student they need to apply for a janitorial or some other gopher type position and not obtain the job in their field right away? The nursing graduate should get a job as a janitor at a hospital. Is this what you're saying?
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 07:57:54 PM
So, when a college student graduates like but not limited to a nursing student they need to apply for a janitorial or some other gopher type position and not obtain the job in their field right away? The nursing graduate should get a job as a janitor at a hospital. Is this what you're saying?
No, a nursing degree has on the job training in a hospital. They are usually placed in a job after they get their license. They probably start out as a floor nurse, changing sheets, giving baths, dumping bed pans, until they learn the hospitals' routine of directly caring for the patients. Also, it would depend if they specialized, like a surgical nurse, which would take even more training.
What kind of work are you interested in? Computers?
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 07:57:54 PM
So, when a college student graduates like but not limited to a nursing student they need to apply for a janitorial or some other gopher type position and not obtain the job in their field right away? The nursing graduate should get a job as a janitor at a hospital. Is this what you're saying?
:lol:
No, you were'nt specific. :wink:
I was talking about someone with no experience, a trade school is a different story altogether.
Quote from: Dori on June 24, 2015, 08:09:08 PM
No, a nursing degree has on the job training in a hospital. They are usually placed in a job after they get their license. They probably start out as a floor nurse, changing sheets, giving baths, dumping bed pans, until they learn the hospitals' routine of directly caring for the patients. Also, it would depend if they specialized, like a surgical nurse, which would take even more training.
What kind of work are you interested in? Computers?
Yeah, janitor. :biggrin:
But you're right, nursing is a learned skill.
Quote from: cubedemon on June 24, 2015, 12:53:37 PM
Well she may have had Autism as well. If I didn't think about the subtext, that would've been my answer as well. I still have problems with literalism such as that.
It is one of the reasons I have problems with functioning.
If something is vague, I have issues.
Let's say I'm told to put a pot of water on the opposite side of the stove and the pot is on the (front, right) eye. I'm looking this as I'm looking at a Cartesian plane. Problem: which axis do I apply it to? Is left opposite from right, back opposite from front or do I consider both axis's? How do I apply opposite in this case since opposite is open to interpretation?
I'm 40 years old, and when someone tells me to turn on the front burner, I'll stare at it and try to figure out which one is the front. This has been how I have thought and processed things since I was very little, and probably why I have literally, never learned a single thing in school. Not one single thing. One test question would prompt 100 more questions on the context or how it could be interpreted.
However,
I'm not autistic or have a disability. I could easily claim that since I couldn't be shoe-horned into the public education system and flunked out of every grade after that one we did finger paints in. You, and myself, and many, many others, think differently, and it isn't a disability. You can post on a forum, then you're fine. Cut out your lazy crap and teach yourself something.
QuoteYou can post on a forum, then you're fine. Cut out your lazy crap and teach yourself something.
1. Cut out your lazy crap
2. Teach myself something
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
.
.
.
n
and then what? What are the absolute and correct steps one must do after these first two steps? What are steps 3 - n? You're saying nothing.
Quote from: cubedemon on June 25, 2015, 06:40:50 AM
1. Cut out your lazy crap
2. Teach myself something
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
.
.
.
n
and then what? What are the absolute and correct steps one must do after these first two steps? What are steps 3 - n? You're saying nothing.
Decide what you want to do, or be. (What is your education?)
Now,
1. Go to elementary school
2. middle school
3. high school
4. Go to graduation ceremony (celebrate, everyone is happy, congrats cubedemon, parents say "we're so proud of you."
5. Go to college and major in Information Technology with an emphasis in software development
6. At college, I was able to get a job at software support. Not due to any effort on my part but being at the right place at the right time.
7. Was able to obtain internship.
8. Internship turned into a job. Graduated College (Repeat #4)
9. Started looking for work because I needed better pay. Doesn't know what to type into search engine at first. After a month of, one figures out some words to type in.
10. One looks at job postings even under entry level jobs. All jobs require multi-skills with each skill requiring x amount of years of experience. One looks constantly and is told to keep looking for a time. Nothing happens
11. Told not to tell my current employer I was looking for work by a loved one. I was told that they would fire me if I told them. Didn't know how to verify whether true or not. Don't know whether this was true or not.
12. Caught in a catch 22. Didn't know what to do. Didn't understand. Some of the jobs wanted VB.Net knowledge with x amount of years of experience. I had that. Couldn't use it as it would require me to tell them about the job I had but in order to do that I would have to let the other job know that I was seeking another job. Error! Error! Error! Contradictory standards. Doesn't know what to do. Resolution Unknown!
13. Forced into mystery shopping in which one had to memorize the questions and then memorize the answers back. Could not do so. Forced to lie by making up answers due to impossibility of demands. Knows what he is doing is wrong. Tries to get out of it.
14. Tries to apply to other jobs at Walmart like cashier, etc. Tries to apply to be a busboy at Hotel. Tries to apply at other places. No one calls back. Was advised to call back and they all said the same thing. They all said they would call if one was needed.
15. Tries to obtain assistance from others. No one answers, says one is entitled to nothing. Didn't understand how the maxim was true if one wasn't entitled to refuse to commit murder and to commit murder at the same time. Proof by contradiction said this had to be false. Realizes something is wrong. Looks at what people say in their social context. Realizes error in logic.
16. Realizes one needed major help. One goes to the Autism Center. Gets a diagnosis of Aspergers Syndrome. Could not afford to go their for assistance. Now it's $200.00 per month.
17. Realizes one needed major assistance still and couldn't get it because one would have to have income to get it. If one had income and a steady job then would one need assistance to do so? One goes to Voc rehab. Took a while of prodding and poking to get them to do anything. Sent to worktec. Test one's ability to handle a job. Wrote extensive report on me. Last minute decides one needed to go to the autism center which one couldn't afford.
18. Realizes that w/o major assistance one can't work and one can't receive assistance w/o others providing it.
19. Realizes that won't happen due to national beliefs like personal responsibility, self-reliance, independence, etc.
20. Had 2 other blogs before this current 1.
21. Realized one had to challenge American values, conservatives, personal responsibility advocates since they guard the doors and have the keys.
22. Attempted to develop my critical thinking and logical skills more.
23. Eventually stumbled upon necessary vs. sufficient condition. Realized that just because x was necessary doesn't mean it was sufficient. A degree may be necessary but may be insufficient. Realized and understood one of the ways thinking was wrong. Thought one earned a job by the degree. Realized one was wrong and it was insufficient. More requirements were needed to be satisfied. Can't satisfy them w/o major assistance and questions answered.
24. Due to country's values and expectations and social parameters. Won't get it from others. Entitled to nothing. Realizes something else.
25. Realizes why loved ones think I'm more functional and realizes what one must do. Like Orr in the book Catch 22 one must crash the metaphorical airplane. https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/06/15/the-uncanny-valley/
26. Eventually writes fanfiction that demonstrates my issues w society, where things can go wrong, and how good intentions and untreated mental illness is the road to hell. Needs major revisions. first time writer. no experience. has a lot to learn
https://cubeangel.wordpress.com/2015/02/27/backdrop-to-my-tampa-fan-fiction/
https://cubeangel.wordpress.com/2014/08/03/the-healing-of-jack-patrick/
https://cubeangel.wordpress.com/2014/10/20/celeste-prices-sister/
27. Will write autobiography of one's life to give backdrop for others and their autistic children to give an account of what went right and what went wrong For other parents in the distant future and near future.
I would think that Aspergers Syndrome would almost rule out working for other people.
Self employment would seem like the best option. Anything you could do by yourself would eliminate the hazards of conflict and sudden unemployment.
What do you enjoy doing? Is it marketable?
Quote from: cubedemon on June 25, 2015, 08:17:09 AM
27. Will write autobiography of one's life to give backdrop for others and their autistic children to give an account of what went right and what went wrong For other parents in the distant future and near future.
^I think that's a great idea. Unfortunately, there isn't enough information/help for people like yourself who want to work, but don't quite fit into the current system. Hang in there, as long as you keep trying and don't get too discouraged, you will find something out there that fits you. However, keep busy, like the autobiography.
It seems to me there is a real need for those with spectrum issues to have some kind of job placement agency.
Have you developed any software on your own? It seems like with the popularity of gaming, that might be an area you might like. Even better, design games for kids with autism. I know one young boy who is in the middle of the spectrum, but he seems to be unbeatable on those games.
Cubedemon
Just spoke with someone who recommended that you look for server and network administration for an internet provider. There are probably a lot of small to medium size companies in your area. He said that there doesn't seem to be enough people coming in that can do that kind of work.
He also mentioned writing technical papers.
Quote from: Dori on June 25, 2015, 08:50:43 AM
^I think that's a great idea. Unfortunately, there isn't enough information/help for people like yourself who want to work, but don't quite fit into the current system. Hang in there, as long as you keep trying and don't get too discouraged, you will find something out there that fits you. However, keep busy, like the autobiography.
It seems to me there is a real need for those with spectrum issues to have some kind of job placement agency.
Have you developed any software on your own? It seems like with the popularity of gaming, that might be an area you might like. Even better, design games for kids with autism. I know one young boy who is in the middle of the spectrum, but he seems to be unbeatable on those games.
Definitely concur. He has the gift of communication, and like you said, to most, this is an unknown subject, something parents would find invaluable.
Quote from: cubedemon on June 25, 2015, 06:40:50 AM
1. Cut out your lazy crap
2. Teach myself something
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
.
.
.
n
and then what? What are the absolute and correct steps one must do after these first two steps? What are steps 3 - n? You're saying nothing.
Start with the first one. Let me know when you have completed that.
Quote from: taxed on June 25, 2015, 02:19:28 PM
Start with the first one. Let me know when you have completed that.
He has autism. :glare:
Quote from: kroz on June 25, 2015, 08:26:50 AM
I would think that Aspergers Syndrome would almost rule out working for other people.
Self employment would seem like the best option. Anything you could do by yourself would eliminate the hazards of conflict and sudden unemployment.
What do you enjoy doing? Is it marketable?
Here's the issue with that. First, This means instead of employers being my boss it would be the customer who would be my boss. If I can't even sell myself in an interview due to lack of social skills and communication issues then how can I sell myself and a product to a customer. If I have to have social skills to sell myself to an employer than I have to have these exact social skills times 100 to go into business for myself.
Second, customers are going to want to know when they will have their products done by or when they will have their computers fixed by or how long will it take me to create a computer program. I am literally unable to answer such a question because it requires me to come up with an estimate and I have no clue as to how to give. The answer depends upon multiple factors and is situational dependent.
Third, I wouldn't have any clue as to how to determine what is marketable.
Fourth, I wouldn't have any clue as to how to set a price for a product and/or service because it requires another estimate that again I have no clue as to how to come up with.
Fifth, I am unable to display the confidence and be the confident person others want me to be. Here is why. https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2013/04/23/confidence-and-honesty/
Quote from: Solar on June 25, 2015, 09:56:41 AM
Definitely concur. He has the gift of communication, and like you said, to most, this is an unknown subject, something parents would find invaluable.
My supposed "gift" in communication is not as simple as you think. It is true that I can and do write in a very formalist and pedantic style. The thing is I do have communication issues.
a. I tend to take things very literally. Example: It took me a long time to understand what "You're entitled to nothing meant."
The root word of the word entitled is entitle. Here is the definition. https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=entitle
It's not the second definition because we're not talking about bestowing titles like Admiral or Director, etc.
More than likely it is the first definition.
Definition: give (someone) a legal right or a just claim to receive or do something.
This is how I looked at it. I imagined it in set theory terms.
Let's say we have the set of all that is Receivable R.
Let's say we have the set of all that is Doable D.
Let's say we have the set of all Entitlements E.
So, we have the given formula of R & D & E. A member has to occur in all three of these given sets.
Let's imagine we have subsets (a - z ) that are members of all three super sets R, D, and E. The subsets (a - z) also have negations that are a part of all three super sets R, D, and E.
Now, we can establish these four theorems based upon the maxim of "You're entitled to nothing."
a. a is entitled to e
b. a is entitled to ~e
c. a is not entitled to e.
d. a is not entitled to ~e.
~ means negation of course. For example we have red and it's negation non-red(anything that is not red).
Since theorms c and d are the only ones that can hold up, then one can derive these things.
i. Bob is not entitled to murder Sally.
ii. Bob is not entitled to not murder Sally.
Both are true at the same time since no one is entitled to anything. It would be a contradiction and we would end up with Russell's Paradox. Are there entity's that do not contain themselves or are there entitlements that are not entitlements?
So, let's say somehow it is possible for entities to contain themselves. So we have the entity A which equals E ^ ~E.
So, by the maxim of "You're entitled to nothing" we can't even be entitled to entity A as well. So, one isn't even entitled to an empty set. So, how is one truthfully entitled to nothing? The only way this could be satisfied would be is that everyone would have to be in a construct like the Matrix. In the Matrix, it is possible to have a non-empty set and be granted a non-empty set and outside in which one's mind is hooked up one has nothing. This was my thinking a while back. This is how my mind operates naturally.
b. I tend to miss the gestalt or the big picture on things and end up focusing on the details instead.
c. I have issues with figurative language
d. I have problems with non-verbal language, facial expressions, other people's tone and emphasis on particular syllables of a word.
e. I have extreme trouble with eye contact because it is painful for me.
f. I have extreme trouble with gauging the amount of grip that one should have when giving a handshake. People don't like fishy ones but how do I give a firm handshake without squeezing hard like BA Baracus on the A-Team? (Old series)
g. I have problems with social pragmatic use of the English Language. http://www.asha.org/public/speech/development/Pragmatics/
Quote from: cubedemon on July 09, 2015, 04:17:41 PM
e. I have extreme trouble with eye contact because it is painful for me.
Can you explain that in more detail? I know that is a common trait in people on the spectrum. Does it only apply to people, or does that also happen when looking at animals, or looking at pictures, etc.?
Quote from: Dori on July 09, 2015, 04:27:39 PM
Can you explain that in more detail? I know that is a common trait in people on the spectrum. Does it only apply to people, or does that also happen when looking at animals, or looking at pictures, etc.?
For me, it feels weird and is painful for me. I can look into an animals eyes and pictures as well. People, not so much Dori.
There is one exception though that was very scary for me. I can tell you for sure that this person was a psychopath. Imagine looking into the eyes of Cho Sueung Hui. https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=cho+sueung+hui
Imagine looking into the eyes of pure evil itself and imagine not being able to move or even speak. The one time I was able to successfully able to make eye contact I saw Cho's exact expression. In normal circustances, I have major difficulty and for me it is very painful and unnerving.
Quote from: cubedemon on July 09, 2015, 04:17:41 PM
My supposed "gift" in communication is not as simple as you think. It is true that I can and do write in a very formalist and pedantic style. The thing is I do have communication issues.
a. I tend to take things very literally. Example: It took me a long time to understand what "You're entitled to nothing meant."
The root word of the word entitled is entitle. Here is the definition. https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=entitle
It's not the second definition because we're not talking about bestowing titles like Admiral or Director, etc.
More than likely it is the first definition.
Definition: give (someone) a legal right or a just claim to receive or do something.
This is how I looked at it. I imagined it in set theory terms.
Let's say we have the set of all that is Receivable R.
Let's say we have the set of all that is Doable D.
Let's say we have the set of all Entitlements E.
So, we have the given formula of R & D & E. A member has to occur in all three of these given sets.
Let's imagine we have subsets (a - z ) that are members of all three super sets R, D, and E. The subsets (a - z) also have negations that are a part of all three super sets R, D, and E.
Now, we can establish these four theorems based upon the maxim of "You're entitled to nothing."
a. a is entitled to e
b. a is entitled to ~e
c. a is not entitled to e.
d. a is not entitled to ~e.
~ means negation of course. For example we have red and it's negation non-red(anything that is not red).
Since theorms c and d are the only ones that can hold up, then one can derive these things.
i. Bob is not entitled to murder Sally.
ii. Bob is not entitled to not murder Sally.
Both are true at the same time since no one is entitled to anything. It would be a contradiction and we would end up with Russell's Paradox. Are there entity's that do not contain themselves or are there entitlements that are not entitlements?
So, let's say somehow it is possible for entities to contain themselves. So we have the entity A which equals E ^ ~E.
So, by the maxim of "You're entitled to nothing" we can't even be entitled to entity A as well. So, one isn't even entitled to an empty set. So, how is one truthfully entitled to nothing? The only way this could be satisfied would be is that everyone would have to be in a construct like the Matrix. In the Matrix, it is possible to have a non-empty set and be granted a non-empty set and outside in which one's mind is hooked up one has nothing. This was my thinking a while back. This is how my mind operates naturally.
b. I tend to miss the gestalt or the big picture on things and end up focusing on the details instead.
c. I have issues with figurative language
d. I have problems with non-verbal language, facial expressions, other people's tone and emphasis on particular syllables of a word.
e. I have extreme trouble with eye contact because it is painful for me.
f. I have extreme trouble with gauging the amount of grip that one should have when giving a handshake. People don't like fishy ones but how do I give a firm handshake without squeezing hard like BA Baracus on the A-Team? (Old series)
g. I have problems with social pragmatic use of the English Language. http://www.asha.org/public/speech/development/Pragmatics/
OK, first off, you over think simplicity way too much.
"You", in this country, are entitled to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, beyond that, you are entitled to your own opinion.
That really is about it.
Or in the event an employer offers you a health and retirement package, you are accorded certain entitlements.
Quote from: Solar on July 09, 2015, 05:31:02 PM
OK, first off, you over think simplicity way too much.
"You", in this country, are entitled to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, beyond that, you are entitled to your own opinion.
That really is about it.
Or in the event an employer offers you a health and retirement package, you are accorded certain entitlements.
I agree!
I think he is playing with us.....
Quote from: kroz on July 09, 2015, 05:43:00 PM
I agree!
I think he is playing with us.....
Interesting! Very, Very Interesting!
I have had people accuse me and other aspies of this as well. Why? Why do people believe I and others are playing games? My hypothesis:
https://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.com/2015/06/15/the-uncanny-valley/
QuoteOK, first off, you over think simplicity way too much.
"You", in this country, are entitled to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, beyond that, you are entitled to your own opinion.
That really is about it.
Or in the event an employer offers you a health and retirement package, you are accorded certain entitlements.
I think I understand what you're saying. What most people do in their communication style is a form of verbal shorthand.
The phrase "You're entitled to nothing" is equivalent to "You're entitled to nothing that exists outside of life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, my opinion and what others choose to give." The part that is after the word nothing is implied and assumed knowledge by most people. Is this correct?
It's sort of similar to asking "what is on TV?" My literal answer would be I don't know. There is something else that is implied though. What they're asking is "What is on TV and if you do not know can you please find out and tell me." That's what they're really saying. Is this correct?
Quote from: kroz on July 09, 2015, 05:43:00 PM
I agree!
I think he is playing with us.....
Ya think?
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.fotki.com%2F1_p%2Crrqddwbdffwfddgxbqfqsbrwqdbw%2Cvi%2Fbsssdrrfbxdgbstgkbxwwqgrkddg%2F1%2F1595431%2F11855564%2Fbest_pictures_2014_86-vi.jpg&hash=848a134ed3033c56b5c38d2d108d911ac668805f)
Quote from: quiller on July 10, 2015, 04:46:33 AM
Ya think?
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.fotki.com%2F1_p%2Crrqddwbdffwfddgxbqfqsbrwqdbw%2Cvi%2Fbsssdrrfbxdgbstgkbxwwqgrkddg%2F1%2F1595431%2F11855564%2Fbest_pictures_2014_86-vi.jpg&hash=848a134ed3033c56b5c38d2d108d911ac668805f)
Absolutely!!!! :thumbsup:
Quote from: kroz on July 10, 2015, 05:09:41 AM
Absolutely!!!! :thumbsup:
I have others. They're not nearly as kind.
Whining about one's self-professed illnesses in a public forum always incites suspicions that poster is falsely seeking sympathy. In this case he seeks absolution. Not from me.
Quote from: kroz on July 09, 2015, 05:43:00 PM
I agree!
I think he is playing with us.....
In part? Yes, he loves the attention, but that's a part of his malady, which is real.
Quote from: quiller on July 10, 2015, 04:46:33 AM
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.fotki.com%2F1_p%2Crrqddwbdffwfddgxbqfqsbrwqdbw%2Cvi%2Fbsssdrrfbxdgbstgkbxwwqgrkddg%2F1%2F1595431%2F11855564%2Fbest_pictures_2014_86-vi.jpg&hash=848a134ed3033c56b5c38d2d108d911ac668805f)
Boy, isn't that the truth?
The Dims have kept their constituency, age locked at the teenage level of reason.
Quote from: Solar on July 10, 2015, 06:30:17 AM
Boy, isn't that the truth?
The Dims have kept their constituency, age locked at the teenage level of reason.
Last night I spoke to a very liberal old pal of mine who swears he works more hours under Democrats than Republicans, but can't do anything but "eat, sleep, work and a few chores before I go to bed, and NOTHING ELSE!"
This same conversation then led to him complaining how little he'd get on Social Security and how he'd already worked more than what's allowed for the calendar year. Somehow I think I woulda lost him explaining that average-of-last-five-years payout-amount, versus how long past regular retirement you go before filing for a payout.
To some young punk demanding Mommy bring him his sandwich in her basement, that stuff about Social Security is a drag and besides, isn't Obama reviving the death panels to kill us off so we can cut 400,000 troops and increase our national security and lower the debt because those old geezers drop dead? :cry:
Nazi Germany executed thousands of prisoners, sex deviates, mentally ill, and more. That's the level of care that leftists deliver when they're in charge, and sooner or later the worm always turns and consumes the people like him.
Quote from: quiller on July 10, 2015, 05:26:56 AM
I have others. They're not nearly as kind.
Whining about one's self-professed illnesses in a public forum always incites suspicions that poster is falsely seeking sympathy. In this case he seeks absolution. Not from me.
http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/writers-guild/the-rising-cult-of-egalitarianism/
"Rather, the proponents of egalitarianism must be required to present their case on a logical basis, and those of us who support individual liberty must be ready and willing to question egalitarianism on the ideological, rather than practical, level."
My response:
Rather, the proponents of individualism, personal responsibility etc, must be required to present their case on a logical basis, and those of us who support logic and truth must be ready and willing to question individualism, personal responsibility, proving God exists with his ascribed properties and other ideas on the ideological, rather than practical, level which is what I did.
1. This includes answering logical and rational questions especially if the ideas seem contradictory and inconsistent
2. Avoiding Ad Hominem Attacks including but not limited to the person's character, accusing a person of lying and malingering without any evidence.
For example, on the other thread, that I posted how does anyone have the free will to choose to be good and do good if humanity is inherently evil? How can one choose to follow God at all if one is inherently evil?
It's like making the claim that a schizophrenic person can choose not to be schizophrenic. How is this so? How can one be inherently evil yet choose to do good which would require one to have some inherent goodness?
"The world does not owe you a living, you owe the world something. You owe it your time, energy and talent so that no one will be at war, in sickness and lonely again."
What the judge here said in the article makes absolutely no sense. Here is why.
If I owe Mary Sue a piece of paper then by logic Mary Sue is owed a piece of paper by me. The judge is saying that I owe Mary Sue a piece of paper yet she is not owed by me the piece of paper? Huh? What? This makes absolutely no sense. How does this logic hold up?
If everyone owes the world these things then by logic isn't everyone owed these things as well by whomever owes them which is everyone? How can one owe others yet those others are not owed by that one at the exact same time? How can A owe B yet B not be owed by A at the same time in the same instance?
What the judge says is inconsistent and contradictory.
How can we as mankind achieve what the judge desires which is no one will be at war, in sickness and lonely again if life isn't fair, man is inherently evil and this would be a Utopian ideal which conservatives claim as unachievable?
Which is it can we achieve these things if we as humanity work to strive for it or are they unachievable due to humanity's condition of being inherently evil and sinful?
Again, This is inconsistent and contradictory.
Quote from: Solar on July 09, 2015, 05:31:02 PM
OK, first off, you over think simplicity way too much.
"You", in this country, are entitled to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, beyond that, you are entitled to your own opinion.
That really is about it.
Or in the event an employer offers you a health and retirement package, you are accorded certain entitlements.
If I'm overthinking simplicity way too much then how is it really so simple?
Quote from: cubedemon on July 10, 2015, 08:14:18 AM
http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/writers-guild/the-rising-cult-of-egalitarianism/
"Rather, the proponents of egalitarianism must be required to present their case on a logical basis, and those of us who support individual liberty must be ready and willing to question egalitarianism on the ideological, rather than practical, level."
My response:
Rather, the proponents of individualism, personal responsibility etc, must be required to present their case on a logical basis, and those of us who support logic and truth must be ready and willing to question individualism, personal responsibility, proving God exists with his ascribed properties and other ideas on the ideological, rather than practical, level which is what I did.
1. This includes answering logical and rational questions especially if the ideas seem contradictory and inconsistent
2. Avoiding Ad Hominem Attacks including but not limited to the person's character, accusing a person of lying and malingering without any evidence.
For example, on the other thread, that I posted how does anyone have the free will to choose to be good and do good if humanity is inherently evil? How can one choose to follow God at all if one is inherently evil?
It's like making the claim that a schizophrenic person can choose not to be schizophrenic. How is this so? How can one be inherently evil yet choose to do good which would require one to have some inherent goodness?
Wrong.
Your lack of understanding of spiritual/scriptural matters is surprising. But I cannot give you enough information in a mere post to enlighten you. People study for years to understand spiritual truths.
You are poking around.... trying to start arguments. I am not biting. You really are not interested in learning anything anyway.
Quote from: kroz on July 10, 2015, 10:48:40 AM
You are poking around.... trying to start arguments. I am not biting. You really are not interested in learning anything anyway.
Anyone can start an argument. It takes artistry to make it interesting, and all I'm seeing from this callow youth is the same sniveling that he can't get his own way without earning it, or taking responsibility for actions of his own doing.
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.fotki.com%2F1_p%2Csbgdrwbqrbgdgwdxbqfqsbrwqdbw%2Cvi%2Fbsssdrrfbxsqfwttqgw%2F1%2F1595431%2F10201489%2Ftumblr_kzne1cZcey1qz4s6ho1_500-vi.jpg&hash=d052dd9511c59d751accbc3b11b96528fa2960fa)
QuoteWrong.
No, not wrong!
If you all demand that proponents of egalitarianism be required to present their case on a logical basis then proponents of individualism and personal responsibility should have the same requirements as well. If you expect to question others on their ideology then you should expect others to question your ideology. Are you saying that all of you and your belief system is beyond reproach?
QuoteYour lack of understanding of spiritual/scriptural matters is surprising. But I cannot give you enough information in a mere post to enlighten you. People study for years to understand spiritual truths.
So, what you're saying is that it would take years for one to grasp these supposed truths that exists in a spiritual realm(which has yet been proven to exist) and these truths came from the spiritual realm in which God is the supreme ruler of this realm and those of us whom are in the empirical and physical realm? At the same time, these supposed truths are claimed as common sense and self evident. Which is it? Are these things common sense and self-evident or does it take years to understand these things?
If these things take years to grasp and understand then what happens to those who never get these things either because they die too young, their neurology doesn't allow them to grasp these matters or some other reason?
QuoteYou are poking around.... trying to start arguments. I am not biting. You really are not interested in learning anything anyway.
How do you know what I'm interested in or not interested in?
Quote from: quiller on July 10, 2015, 11:16:57 AM
Anyone can start an argument. It takes artistry to make it interesting, and all I'm seeing from this callow youth is the same sniveling that he can't get his own way without earning it, or taking responsibility for actions of his own doing.
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.fotki.com%2F1_p%2Csbgdrwbqrbgdgwdxbqfqsbrwqdbw%2Cvi%2Fbsssdrrfbxsqfwttqgw%2F1%2F1595431%2F10201489%2Ftumblr_kzne1cZcey1qz4s6ho1_500-vi.jpg&hash=d052dd9511c59d751accbc3b11b96528fa2960fa)
So, an Ad Hominem Attack?
Okay Quiller. Here is my response
Responsibility and accountability from an individual or group can happen if the responsibility and accountability is reciprocated. In order for reciprocity to happen a society or an organization must have transparency to it. This means the social rules, moral rules and the laws in a given society or organization must be understood and accessible by all parties involved. The social rules, moral rules, and the law should have the possibility of being explained and others should be willing to explain these things including any perceived contradictions or misunderstandings. If these rules or laws are neither explainable to, accessible to, nor understood by individuals or groups and others refuse to explain these things then how is it moral and how does this display correct behavior to make someone responsible or accountable for something to which they do grasp?
So, how can one take responsible for one's actions if one knows not what one did wrong, what one is doing wrong, why it is wrong, what the absolute correct path is and why that path is the absolute correct path above all the others?
Solar's advice I assume other people believe this as well is to work it out myself. If we're youth then aren't we more than likely ignorant and unwise? In addition, I was diagnosed by different medical professionals as having Aspergers Disorder. In addition to that for me, If we're such screws ups, unwise, lack of foresight and sound judgement then wouldn't it behoove to us to go to those who are wise and ask exactly what is the absolute correct path and why?
Since we're talking spiritual truths let's look at this.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A6&version=KJV
If we as youths are a bunch of narcissists, screw-ups, unwise, lacking in foresight, with a sense of entitlement then who is responsible for raising us this way? Weren't we as youths your charges? So, if we are as you all claim then who is the responsible party? The older and wiser generation who should have trained us properly in the way we should have all went and what the absolute correct path was.
Quote from: cubedemon on July 10, 2015, 12:30:44 PM
No, not wrong!
If you all demand that proponents of egalitarianism be required to present their case on a logical basis then proponents of individualism and personal responsibility should have the same requirements as well. If you expect to question others on their ideology then you should expect others to question your ideology. Are you saying that all of you and your belief system is beyond reproach?
So, what you're saying is that it would take years for one to grasp these supposed truths that exists in a spiritual realm(which has yet been proven to exist) and these truths came from the spiritual realm in which God is the supreme ruler of this realm and those of us whom are in the empirical and physical realm? At the same time, these supposed truths are claimed as common sense and self evident. Which is it? Are these things common sense and self-evident or does it take years to understand these things?
If these things take years to grasp and understand then what happens to those who never get these things either because they die too young, their neurology doesn't allow them to grasp these matters or some other reason?
How do you know what I'm interested in or not interested in?
Oh, you foolish man....
It is called "faith" for a good reason. It is beyond proof in the physical realm. There is no argument to be made. You either "get it" or you don't. If you don't..... accept the fact that it has not been providential.
If you cannot accept the concept of a Creator God...... that is your problem. But EVERY man is without excuse because God has revealed Himself to all men through nature.
If you really had a hunger for truth it would be made obvious to all. ...... it is not.
It is not anyone else's responsibility to convince you of anything.
Go your merry way......
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-rLHpEHrXcWg%2FTskKIQGKmOI%2FAAAAAAAABgQ%2FCkY1WGbvazs%2Fs1600%2Fyawn.png&hash=10803910a8bc5d726467c968646451244f5eaec4)
Quote from: cubedemon on July 10, 2015, 08:28:50 AM
"The world does not owe you a living, you owe the world something. You owe it your time, energy and talent so that no one will be at war, in sickness and lonely again."
What the judge here said in the article makes absolutely no sense. Here is why.
If I owe Mary Sue a piece of paper then by logic Mary Sue is owed a piece of paper by me. The judge is saying that I owe Mary Sue a piece of paper yet she is not owed by me the piece of paper? Huh? What? This makes absolutely no sense. How does this logic hold up?
If everyone owes the world these things then by logic isn't everyone owed these things as well by whomever owes them which is everyone? How can one owe others yet those others are not owed by that one at the exact same time? How can A owe B yet B not be owed by A at the same time in the same instance?
What the judge says is inconsistent and contradictory.
How can we as mankind achieve what the judge desires which is no one will be at war, in sickness and lonely again if life isn't fair, man is inherently evil and this would be a Utopian ideal which conservatives claim as unachievable?
Which is it can we achieve these things if we as humanity work to strive for it or are they unachievable due to humanity's condition of being inherently evil and sinful?
Again, This is inconsistent and contradictory.
Look up the meaning of Statesman. I consider myself a Statesman as a solid Conservative, while a lib is the exact opposite.
Quote from: cubedemon on July 10, 2015, 09:30:12 AM
If I'm overthinking simplicity way too much then how is it really so simple?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Quote from: walkstall on July 10, 2015, 03:56:19 PM
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-rLHpEHrXcWg%2FTskKIQGKmOI%2FAAAAAAAABgQ%2FCkY1WGbvazs%2Fs1600%2Fyawn.png&hash=10803910a8bc5d726467c968646451244f5eaec4)
I saw a bunch of black symbols on my screen above your post. Maybe you should ask Taxed to check into this forum-flaw, immediately. :cool:
Quote from: Solar on July 10, 2015, 05:46:51 PM
Look up the meaning of Statesman. I consider myself a Statesman as a solid Conservative, while a lib is the exact opposite.
What you are and what a lib is not have to do with my questions? I'm not talking about politics, those in power and governance.
I'm talking about the logic of what the judge said which is on the lines of the phrase "The world doesn't owe you anything; you owe the world."
Let me try to break this down more specifically.
Let's consider a-z who are people who consists of those on the planet.
From a's view he is considered "I" when perceiving the world from himself.
From b's view he is considered "I" when perceiving the world from himself.
.
.
.
.
From z's view he is considered "I" when perceiving the world from himself.
By the logic of I owing the world, let's call myself "c," then I "c" owe a-z including myself.
By the logic of I owing the world, then "a" who sees himself as "I" owes a-z including himself or what he would consider myself.
Let's assume x1 as a variable that can take people a-z as values.
By the logic of I owing the world, then "a1 as myself representing all of the perception of the selves" owe a1 or every value of a1 owes every value of a1.
Let's look at the logic of the statement "The world does not owe me."
Let's assume we have a-z as people in the world again.
What this says is I'm not owed by a-z including myself as c.
Let's assign a1 that can hold values a-z again.
So
a1 is not owed by a1 or no value that is assignable to a1 is owed by any value assignable to a1.
Which is it? Does a1 owe a1 or is a1 not owed by a1 or more specifically does a owe b or is b not owed by a?
The judge and others are making the assumption that these two statements can hold up at the same time in the same instance. What I'm asking is how? How is this logically so?
QuoteOh, you foolish man....
Another ad hominem attack huh?
QuoteIt is called "faith" for a good reason. It is beyond proof in the physical realm. There is no argument to be made. You either "get it" or you don't. If you don't..... accept the fact that it has not been providential.
If you cannot accept the concept of a Creator God...... that is your problem. But EVERY man is without excuse because God has revealed Himself to all men through nature.
Okay, Wait a minute. You just said that it is beyond proof in the physical realm and either I get it or I do not. You're saying God revealed himself to all men through nature.
Let's go to the Oxford dictionary of what nature is. I think these two definitions apply.
QuoteThe phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations and The physical force regarded as causing and regulating these phenomena.
Unless I'm mistaken, you're telling me to look at and examine nature since God revealed himself through nature. Isn't nature in the physical realm. You're telling me to use the physical realm that God has revealed himself in yet at the same time you're telling me it is beyond proof in the physical realm? If its beyond proof in the physical realm and nature is a part of this physical real then how can I use nature to know God at all and God's existence?
You're telling me to use nature and at the same time nature is not possible to use. Am I understanding you correctly?
Now let's look at this logic.
Quoteaccept the fact that it has not been providential
If you really had a hunger for truth it would be made obvious to all. ...... it is not.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/providential
There are two definitions I think we can accept which are Occurring at a favorable time; opportune: and Involving divine foresight or intervention:
Let's look at what you said as well.
QuoteIf you cannot accept the concept of a Creator God...... that is your problem. But EVERY man is without excuse because God has revealed Himself to all men through nature.
How is every man without excuse when based upon these definitions it would require God to intervene himself and there would have to be a favorable time and opportune given? Basically, you're saying that God hasn't intervened, there isn't a favorable time(both conditions may or may not be true) or opportune and at the same time you're saying it is my problem meaning it is my fault? How is this true?
Your answers are inconsistent and contradictory. If something is not an opportune or favorable time then it's not meant to have this something or to do this something at the given time (or at all) and if God would have to reveal himself to me especially if he formed thee with a given nature (Yes, I'm a part of nature as well and so is my neurology) then how is it my problem meaning my fault?
Let's say the Bible is inerrant, holy and divine and the author, God, is as well. I will accept. You're as human and sinful as me, correct? This is a part of our nature, correct? So, how can you be sure that you're representing God and the holy Bible correctly and anything you receive from God is actually from God if you're imperfect, a sinner, and broken? You're expecting man whom is fallible to be able to discern what is infallible, complete, perfect and divine? In addition to my being these things since I am a man I with an Autism Spectrum disorder with a possible Pragmatic Disorder is expected to somehow divine these things and/or ask God to divine these things(in the right way with the right mind and heart) and be expected to understand what is divined with my sinful heart, my autism spectrum disorder and my pragmatic disorder which is a part of my given nature? How?
How can you as a sinful woman be expected to discern what is perfect, holy, divine and complete? How can you be sure that what you believe has been revealed or divine is actually the truth and not some deception by Satan or your own mind? It's like asking a schizophrenic man to discern what is actually real and rational when his state of mind doesn't allow him to be these things. How does one truthfully not be foolish? How can one who knows he is unwise and who is a fool can discern what is wise and non-foolish thoughts when one's mind, body, heart and soul is compromised?
Quote from: cubedemon on July 12, 2015, 05:13:09 AM
Another ad hominem attack huh?
Okay, Wait a minute. You just said that it is beyond proof in the physical realm and either I get it or I do not. You're saying God revealed himself to all men through nature.
Let's go to the Oxford dictionary of what nature is. I think these two definitions apply.
Unless I'm mistaken, you're telling me to look at and examine nature since God revealed himself through nature. Isn't nature in the physical realm. You're telling me to use the physical realm that God has revealed himself in yet at the same time you're telling me it is beyond proof in the physical realm? If its beyond proof in the physical realm and nature is a part of this physical real then how can I use nature to know God at all and God's existence?
You're telling me to use nature and at the same time nature is not possible to use. Am I understanding you correctly?
Now let's look at this logic.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/providential
There are two definitions I think we can accept which are Occurring at a favorable time; opportune: and Involving divine foresight or intervention:
Let's look at what you said as well.
How is every man without excuse when based upon these definitions it would require God to intervene himself and there would have to be a favorable time and opportune given? Basically, you're saying that God hasn't intervened, there isn't a favorable time(both conditions may or may not be true) or opportune and at the same time you're saying it is my problem meaning it is my fault? How is this true?
Your answers are inconsistent and contradictory. If something is not an opportune or favorable time then it's not meant to have this something or to do this something at the given time (or at all) and if God would have to reveal himself to me especially if he formed thee with a given nature (Yes, I'm a part of nature as well and so is my neurology) then how is it my problem meaning my fault?
Let's say the Bible is inerrant, holy and divine and the author, God, is as well. I will accept. You're as human and sinful as me, correct? This is a part of our nature, correct? So, how can you be sure that you're representing God and the holy Bible correctly and anything you receive from God is actually from God if you're imperfect, a sinner, and broken? You're expecting man whom is fallible to be able to discern what is infallible, complete, perfect and divine? In addition to my being these things since I am a man I with an Autism Spectrum disorder with a possible Pragmatic Disorder is expected to somehow divine these things and/or ask God to divine these things(in the right way with the right mind and heart) and be expected to understand what is divined with my sinful heart, my autism spectrum disorder and my pragmatic disorder which is a part of my given nature? How?
How can you as a sinful woman be expected to discern what is perfect, holy, divine and complete? How can you be sure that what you believe has been revealed or divine is actually the truth and not some deception by Satan or your own mind? It's like asking a schizophrenic man to discern what is actually real and rational when his state of mind doesn't allow him to be these things. How does one truthfully not be foolish? How can one who knows he is unwise and who is a fool can discern what is wise and non-foolish thoughts when one's mind, body, heart and soul is compromised?
We are ALL born as fools and with sinful natures. Therefore we all sin.
God has revealed himself to ALL of us through nature but not all of us want to accept the proof.
You need not read the entire Bible to understand God's plan for man. Simply read the Book of Romans.
Chapter one explains the revelation through nature issue.
Chapter six explains sin and salvation issues.
When you finally get down to Chapter nine it explains the providential aspects of our life. ..... why some believe and some do not.
However, you must accept that the Scripture is inspired by God and not the whim of some human author.
You are on your own now big boy....... go read!
Quote from: cubedemon on July 12, 2015, 04:39:54 AM
What you are and what a lib is not have to do with my questions? I'm not talking about politics, those in power and governance.
I'm talking about the logic of what the judge said which is on the lines of the phrase "The world doesn't owe you anything; you owe the world."
Stop right there and quit being so damned myopic and literal.
Apply Statesman to daily family/community/life in general and forget the political equation.
A Statesman puts others before himself.
If everyone took this approach again, we'd be living in the 50s once more, because that was how our culture used to be, where others looked out for what was best for the community/country as a whole.
What the judge was saying was, quit being selfish, like liberals are today.
A statesman does not see today as imperative as is tomorrow, for what occurs today, effects tomorrow.
Like debt, he would never incur debt upon his family he alone is unwilling or unable to pay, like that of our National debt and how our society is stealing from those not yet born.
A Statesman, like that of the farmer nurtures the future.
Taking his seeds and cooking them for a meal today, will not produce a meal tomorrow, so the Statesman/Farmer plants tomorrows meal knowing there is no guarantee he will be around to reap the harvest, and still he unselfishly plants regardless, knowing society as a whole will benefit from his labor when he is gone.
Quote from: Solar on July 12, 2015, 06:14:28 AM
Stop right there and quit being so damned myopic and literal.
Apply Statesman to daily family/community/life in general and forget the political equation.
A Statesman puts others before himself.
If everyone took this approach again, we'd be living in the 50s once more, because that was how our culture used to be, where others looked out for what was best for the community/country as a whole.
What the judge was saying was, quit being selfish, like liberals are today.
A statesman does not see today as imperative as is tomorrow, for what occurs today, effects tomorrow.
Like debt, he would never incur debt upon his family he alone is unwilling or unable to pay, like that of our National debt and how our society is stealing from those not yet born.
A Statesman, like that of the farmer nurtures the future.
Taking his seeds and cooking them for a meal today, will not produce a meal tomorrow, so the Statesman/Farmer plants tomorrows meal knowing there is no guarantee he will be around to reap the harvest, and still he unselfishly plants regardless, knowing society as a whole will benefit from his labor when he is gone.
One other point, drop that alphanumeric bull shit, if you can't explain it in simple terms, then don't, I have no interest in following your derailed logic.
Okay, now I understand what that phrase means. So, all it really is, is a figure of speech. Here is the thing. I am okay with simple metaphors, figure of speech and other figurative language but complex figurative language which implied a concept is not what I'm good at.
What we have is a communication barrier due to my ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder). So, a number of things that are implied, a number of times I do not pick it up unless it is blatantly obvious to me.
In essence, we're speaking two different forms of English.
QuoteStop right there and quit being so damned myopic and literal.
I am learning here and trying to make a concerted effort but it is difficult for me to do that as I am a concrete and literal thinker who has difficulties with abstract language even though I have gotten better since my early years.
I just can't stop on a dime though and to learn your language and your communication style I would need intricate help to do so even though I've made some strides to do so.
Another thing, the alphanumeric bull shit as you call it is simple for me. I never thought it wouldn't be simple for you and others and can't conceive how it wouldn't be simple for others. I have problems understanding other people's thinking and why they think the way they do. It baffles me that you would not see this as simple when to me it is simple. This is called a theory of mind deficit. Here is what theory of mind is my friend. I will quit using it but sometimes I don't know how to convey my point any other way but I will figure out another way though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind
I have theory of mind issues so there are cases in which I can't read people's non-verbal language, implied communication, facial expressions, what their intentions are and why they have them. As an example, I don't know why quiller is posting a pic of a man yawning and what he is getting at.
I don't understand why people on here think I'm screwing or playing with them. These things are beyond my comprehension.
Quote from: cubedemon on July 12, 2015, 04:02:52 PM
I don't understand why people on here think I'm screwing or playing with them. These things are beyond my comprehension.
Then you should be seeing a psychiatrist as much as it takes for you to get help or over it. I would not come to a board forum if I need stitches in my arm I would see a MD. But that's just my way of thinking.
Quote from: cubedemon on July 12, 2015, 04:02:52 PM
Okay, now I understand what that phrase means. So, all it really is, is a figure of speech. Here is the thing. I am okay with simple metaphors, figure of speech and other figurative language but complex figurative language which implied a concept is not what I'm good at.
What we have is a communication barrier due to my ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder). So, a number of things that are implied, a number of times I do not pick it up unless it is blatantly obvious to me.
In essence, we're speaking two different forms of English.
I am learning here and trying to make a concerted effort but it is difficult for me to do that as I am a concrete and literal thinker who has difficulties with abstract language even though I have gotten better since my early years.
I just can't stop on a dime though and to learn your language and your communication style I would need intricate help to do so even though I've made some strides to do so.
Another thing, the alphanumeric bull shit as you call it is simple for me. I never thought it wouldn't be simple for you and others and can't conceive how it wouldn't be simple for others. I have problems understanding other people's thinking and why they think the way they do. It baffles me that you would not see this as simple when to me it is simple. This is called a theory of mind deficit. Here is what theory of mind is my friend. I will quit using it but sometimes I don't know how to convey my point any other way but I will figure out another way though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind
I have theory of mind issues so there are cases in which I can't read people's non-verbal language, implied communication, facial expressions, what their intentions are and why they have them. As an example, I don't know why quiller is posting a pic of a man yawning and what he is getting at.
I don't understand why people on here think I'm screwing or playing with them. These things are beyond my comprehension.
I get it, but complicating something to understand it, makes comprehending it even harder.
Your need for alphanumeric breakdown, is like trying to explain a bicycle wheel, except that you include the effect of gravity, centrifugal force, weight distribution, rotation of the earth into the equation, when all that was necessary was to say, it's round with spokes and spins.
You complicate the simplest of issues, there must be books available that can help you gain the tools to grasp the simplest of concepts, right?
Q's pic, what does it signify? What does a yawning man mean to you?
What do you do when you're at a boring lecture, you're hungry, have so many other things to do, what does your body do in anticipation of leaving, yet you have to sit regardless?
Your posts have that same effect on many, not me, but many.
Ya know, it's odd, but there is an anime cartoon called Naruto, and one of the characters name is Sai (sounds like Sigh) he is you.
I kid you not, he cannot read people, at all, he is in constant study of their actions, usually misinterprets them and gets in trouble, but he's an affable sort.
If you can, see if you can find this cartoon, you'll get a kick out of the character, I know you will.
Though he lacks emotion, he has many of the same issues you portray.
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sai
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg1.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20100923005211%2Fnaruto%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fca%2FSai.jpg&hash=bb97238ffde18c1a88b34e798cce0c5de9ff03d4)
Quote from: Solar on July 12, 2015, 04:38:50 PM
Q's pic, what does it signify? What does a yawning man mean to you?
What do you do when you're at a boring lecture, you're hungry, have so many other things to do, what does your body do in anticipation of leaving, yet you have to sit regardless?
Your posts have that same effect on many, not me, but many.
That wasn't my photo offering, but yes --- what DOES a yawning man mean to this kid?
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.fotki.com%2F1_p%2Crqqsbgwttrksqggxbqfqsbrwqdbw%2Cvi%2Fwfwskqgfkxrsrfbgrqq%2F1%2F1595431%2F10202012%2Fobored-vi.png&hash=60550c6d802ac994b721144d93d41ddb697e31bd)
Quote from: quiller on July 12, 2015, 06:44:28 PM
That wasn't my photo offering, but yes --- what DOES a yawning man mean to this kid?
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.fotki.com%2F1_p%2Crqqsbgwttrksqggxbqfqsbrwqdbw%2Cvi%2Fwfwskqgfkxrsrfbgrqq%2F1%2F1595431%2F10202012%2Fobored-vi.png&hash=60550c6d802ac994b721144d93d41ddb697e31bd)
:biggrin:
Yeah, he has the affect.
(https://conservativepoliticalforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2015%2F01%2F21%2F24E3DD2500000578-0-image-m-5_1421844674400.jpg&hash=50b2f7186e1eba8947759864d356c7b636e9d3ae)
QuoteI get it, but complicating something to understand it, makes comprehending it even harder.
I understand. For me, some things are just complicatedly simple meaning I can understand the most complex of things like the Min-Max Algorithm which I used to create an AI player in a class I had. Tell me something simple like simplistic phrases and I can get lost in the details instead of the gestalt.
QuoteYour need for alphanumeric breakdown, is like trying to explain a bicycle wheel, except that you include the effect of gravity, centrifugal force, weight distribution, rotation of the earth into the equation, when all that was necessary was to say, it's round with spokes and spins.
It is an issue I have. Sometimes, I don't realize all I need to say is that it is round with spokes and it spins.
QuoteYou complicate the simplest of issues, there must be books available that can help you gain the tools to grasp the simplest of concepts, right?
That's a wonderful idea. I didn't think of it. I wonder if a "For Dummies" book would help.
QuoteQ's pic, what does it signify? What does a yawning man mean to you?
What do you do when you're at a boring lecture, you're hungry, have so many other things to do, what does your body do in anticipation of leaving, yet you have to sit regardless?
Your posts have that same effect on many, not me, but many.
Ok I understand and I didn't realize that my posts had that effect on many.
QuoteYa know, it's odd, but there is an anime cartoon called Naruto, and one of the characters name is Sai (sounds like Sigh) he is you.
I kid you not, he cannot read people, at all, he is in constant study of their actions, usually misinterprets them and gets in trouble, but he's an affable sort.
If you can, see if you can find this cartoon, you'll get a kick out of the character, I know you will.
Though he lacks emotion, he has many of the same issues you portray.
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sai
I'm going to take you up on that. I think I will go watch it.
Quote from: cubedemon on July 12, 2015, 08:33:28 PM
I understand. For me, some things are just complicatedly simple meaning I can understand the most complex of things like the Min-Max Algorithm which I used to create an AI player in a class I had. Tell me something simple like simplistic phrases and I can get lost in the details instead of the gestalt.
It is an issue I have. Sometimes, I don't realize all I need to say is that it is round with spokes and it spins.
That's a wonderful idea. I didn't think of it. I wonder if a "For Dummies" book would help.
Ok I understand and I didn't realize that my posts had that effect on many.
I'm going to take you up on that. I think I will go watch it.
:biggrin:
I bet they do, considering many have the same issues as you, some more, some less.
Hell, I can be the slowest guy in the room at times, and now that my hearing isn't what it used to be, only makes it worse when they repeat it and I still don't get it. :blushing:
Quote from: kroz on July 12, 2015, 05:34:37 AM
We are ALL born as fools and with sinful natures. Therefore we all sin.
God has revealed himself to ALL of us through nature but not all of us want to accept the proof.
You need not read the entire Bible to understand God's plan for man. Simply read the Book of Romans.
Chapter one explains the revelation through nature issue.
Chapter six explains sin and salvation issues.
When you finally get down to Chapter nine it explains the providential aspects of our life. ..... why some believe and some do not.
However, you must accept that the Scripture is inspired by God and not the whim of some human author.
You are on your own now big boy....... go read!
I read chapter 1 of Romans. I am so confused by what some of it says especially verse 20 when it says " For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."
Looking at verse 20 how can God have invisible qualities that have been clearly seen?
Look at verses 21 - 27. Again, I am extremely confused.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. ...............
So, because there were those who neither glorified God nor gave thanks to God they had their free will taken away since God gave them over to their sinful desires. If they were given to their sinful desires and they had no other choice because they chose not to glorify God or give thanks to him then how can they be expected to repent and choose again to glorify God and give thanks to him again if the ability to choose to do that has been taken away? I am extremely and utterly confused by what these passages say.
Quote from: cubedemon on July 16, 2015, 05:51:02 AM
I read chapter 1 of Romans. I am so confused by what some of it says especially verse 20 when it says " For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."
Looking at verse 20 how can God have invisible qualities that have been clearly seen?
Look at verses 21 - 27. Again, I am extremely confused.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. ...............
So, because there were those who neither glorified God nor gave thanks to God they had their free will taken away since God gave them over to their sinful desires. If they were given to their sinful desires and they had no other choice because they chose not to glorify God or give thanks to him then how can they be expected to repent and choose again to glorify God and give thanks to him again if the ability to choose to do that has been taken away? I am extremely and utterly confused by what these passages say.
Well, if you are confused now...... wait till you read chapter nine!!!
It is impossible to watch birds fly, plants grow, or do an indepth study of the human anatomy and not KNOW that their is a Creator. All of this did not happen by random chance, spontaneous combustion or any other silliness. Deep within us we KNOW there is a God. What lies beyond the Universe as we know it?
Why do you exist???? Think about it. Do you REALLY believe you have no purpose in life?
The root problem man has with a Creator God is that it puts "something" higher than man. It requires an element of accountability to a higher being.
Because of our stubborn hearts we do not seek God because we really do not want to know the truth and therefore be accountable for the way we live our lives. We are masters at creating all kinds of excuses for ignoring God.
And we can reach a point in our sinful denial of God that He will leave us to our own willful vile behaviors. We will suffer the natural consequences of our foolishness. Thinking that we have become wise, we become blooming idiots! God will not continue to reveal Himself to us. He will allow us to go our merry way..... to destruction.
BUT, the wise man will look at creation and acknowledge a Creator exists.... and he will seek to know the Creator.
That is the beginning of truly living as God intended. The more we seek God, the more of Himself he reveals to us.
Quote from: kroz on July 16, 2015, 06:32:06 AM
Well, if you are confused now...... wait till you read chapter nine!!!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :thumbsup:
QuoteIt is impossible to watch birds fly, plants grow, or do an indepth study of the human anatomy and not KNOW that their is a Creator. All of this did not happen by random chance, spontaneous combustion or any other silliness. Deep within us we KNOW there is a God. What lies beyond the Universe as we know it?
Why do you exist???? Think about it. Do you REALLY believe you have no purpose in life?
The root problem man has with a Creator God is that it puts "something" higher than man. It requires an element of accountability to a higher being.
Because of our stubborn hearts we do not seek God because we really do not want to know the truth and therefore be accountable for the way we live our lives. We are masters at creating all kinds of excuses for ignoring God.
And we can reach a point in our sinful denial of God that He will leave us to our own willful vile behaviors. We will suffer the natural consequences of our foolishness. Thinking that we have become wise, we become blooming idiots! God will not continue to reveal Himself to us. He will allow us to go our merry way..... to destruction.
BUT, the wise man will look at creation and acknowledge a Creator exists.... and he will seek to know the Creator.
That is the beginning of truly living as God intended. The more we seek God, the more of Himself he reveals to us.
And life suddenly makes sense.
Well said Kroz.
Quote from: Solar on July 16, 2015, 09:18:57 AM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :thumbsup:
And life suddenly makes sense.
Well said Kroz.
Thanks...... makes perfect sense to me! :wink:
QuoteIt is impossible to watch birds fly, plants grow, or do an indepth study of the human anatomy and not KNOW that their is a Creator.
How do you figure?
QuoteAll of this did not happen by random chance, spontaneous combustion or any other silliness.
How do you know? What makes you think all of this did not happen by random chance?
QuoteDeep within us we KNOW there is a God.
If this is so, then why do so many doubt his existence and believe that there are other Gods who didn't create all of this?
QuoteWhat lies beyond the Universe as we know it?
According to the multi-verse theory, other universes. Who says there is a beyond?
QuoteWhy do you exist????
Because my parents procreated and my father's sperm fertilized my mother's egg. Eventually after being a fetus for a while, my mom gave birth to me.
QuoteThink about it. Do you REALLY believe you have no purpose in life?
Why do I have to have a purpose?
QuoteThe root problem man has with a Creator God is that it puts "something" higher than man. It requires an element of accountability to a higher being.
Because of our stubborn hearts we do not seek God because we really do not want to know the truth and therefore be accountable for the way we live our lives. We are masters at creating all kinds of excuses for ignoring God.
If God's way is the best way then why wouldn't we all seek him?
QuoteAnd we can reach a point in our sinful denial of God that He will leave us to our own willful vile behaviors. We will suffer the natural consequences of our foolishness. Thinking that we have become wise, we become blooming idiots! God will not continue to reveal Himself to us. He will allow us to go our merry way..... to destruction.
I see.
QuoteBUT, the wise man will look at creation and acknowledge a Creator exists.... and he will seek to know the Creator.
How does one know which creator is correct out of all of them that man says? Ancient Greeks believed in the Greek gods, etc.
Quote from: cubedemon on July 18, 2015, 02:20:16 PM
How do you figure?
How do you know? What makes you think all of this did not happen by random chance?
If this is so, then why do so many doubt his existence and believe that there are other Gods who didn't create all of this?
According to the multi-verse theory, other universes. Who says there is a beyond?
Because my parents procreated and my father's sperm fertilized my mother's egg. Eventually after being a fetus for a while, my mom gave birth to me.
Why do I have to have a purpose?
If God's way is the best way then why wouldn't we all seek him?
I see.
How does one know which creator is correct out of all of them that man says? Ancient Greeks believed in the Greek gods, etc.
Watch this and get back to us.
I hope it's the right movie, so here's two links, the last link is to buy the actual movie, but since I can't watch videos, I can't confirm the first two, but if correct, you can watch it for free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP_GkQ_j2jw
http://www.hulu.com/watch/490980
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0399877/
Quote from: cubedemon on July 18, 2015, 02:20:16 PM
How do you figure?
How do you know? What makes you think all of this did not happen by random chance?
If this is so, then why do so many doubt his existence and believe that there are other Gods who didn't create all of this?
According to the multi-verse theory, other universes. Who says there is a beyond?
Because my parents procreated and my father's sperm fertilized my mother's egg. Eventually after being a fetus for a while, my mom gave birth to me.
Why do I have to have a purpose?
If God's way is the best way then why wouldn't we all seek him?
I see.
How does one know which creator is correct out of all of them that man says? Ancient Greeks believed in the Greek gods, etc.
cubedemon, why have men always sought after a "god" or "gods" throughout history? Always!!!
Because we each know within our own consciousness that there is something higher and more powerful than mere man. God created that intuitively within each of us. We each possess a god shaped vacuum that we seek to fill. Some people create idols, or seek materialism or power and money, etc. to fill that void. We all seek after something in life that fulfills a need we have from birth. But nothing we persue ever fills that void except the Creator Himself.
If you truly want to know Him you must seek him....... by that, I mean verbally ask Him to show Himself to you! That is called "prayer". BUT, you must believe that he exists. The knowledge of His existence is within you, but you have not chosen to acknowledge it.
God's fingerprints are all over creation. The intricate design of a small thing like an eye.... which provides vision...demands a master designer. You would never believe that a watch maker simply threw a bunch of parts into the air and it fell to the ground as a wristwatch. A rationale person knows that it required the wisdom and knowledge of a master craftsman to create that watch.
Why would it be any different for something so much more complicated like the human brain..... and the delicate balance of nature? Only a fool would doubt the evidence of a Creator.