Quote from: ZenMode on December 12, 2022, 11:34:01 AMEasy.  Stop calling it "marriage".  Marriage is, as Christians, Muslims, etc continue to say, a religious term.  It's based on, for Christians, the beliefs derived from Bible teachings.  Marriage ceremonies, marriage licenses and marriage requirements should be left to religion and not the government.  Once the couple has finished their religious marriage ceremony, they can notify the state that they want to be seen as "a couple" legally through whatever secular process that may be. 

But if religion give us the traditional boundaries for marriage, then in your new system how would you determine the boundaries?

QuoteThere's no religious aspect for two people to be on a car title together or own property together. It's strictly a secular transaction.  That's how everything "government" should be IF religious people want to keep marriage for only the religious.

But we dont want it only for religious people, we want it for everyone because its whats best for society. Not just best in fact, essential. So its something we want everyone to abide by. (Thru the state level, not the federal level.)

Quote from: Sick Of Silence on December 12, 2022, 09:27:03 AMOne thing has to be addressed: Conservatives don't discriminate over color of skin, but we would remove somebody over content of character. That's what the "right to refuse service" stands for. Not to discriminate on any skin color. Need shoes and shirts, along with a shower. Add some manners and an inside voice for good measures.

  nailed it.

Quote from: T Hunt on December 12, 2022, 11:04:53 AMCan you at least admit that our Rights come from God and not Govt? Hard to call yourself an American if you cant at least admit that....

I'm beginning to think Solar had it right, he's not American.............Or very old............smart........honest.................

Quote from: T Hunt on December 12, 2022, 02:33:59 PMBut if religion give us the traditional boundaries for marriage, then in your new system how would you determine the boundaries?

Each church can determine their requirements. Lutherans can decide theirs. Methodists can have theirs. Mormons can decide theirs. That's how it is now. I'm just taking government completely out of the marriage/religious portion.

QuoteBut we dont want it only for religious people, we want it for everyone because its whats best for society. Not just best in fact, essential. So its something we want everyone to abide by. (Thru the state level, not the federal level.)

Now I'm confused. Marriage IS a religious term, going back thousands of years, but you want, for example, atheists and agnostics getting married?

Quote from: ZenMode on December 13, 2022, 01:47:09 AMEach church can determine their requirements. Lutherans can decide theirs. Methodists can have theirs. Mormons can decide theirs. That's how it is now.

You seem to be limiting Faith to religion and denominations, why is that?
Can one not Faith and still believe in god in your world?

Oh wait, your world doesn't like God, it worships Satan, your leaders worship Satan, and that's why they expose themselves by pushing evil on the world.

Quote from: ZenMode on December 13, 2022, 01:47:09 AMEach church can determine their requirements. Lutherans can decide theirs. Methodists can have theirs. Mormons can decide theirs. That's how it is now. I'm just taking government completely out of the marriage/religious portion.

So if you arent a member of a church then you cant get married? What if non religious want it? Or what about non denominational Christians like solar?

QuoteNow I'm confused. Marriage IS a religious term, going back thousands of years, but you want, for example, atheists and agnostics getting married?

Right. Exactly. Since it is a generic religious and socioeconomic concept and not specific to any one religion like Christianity it passes the freedom of religion test. 

Quote from: T Hunt on December 13, 2022, 06:51:48 AMSo if you arent a member of a church then you cant get married? What if non religious want it? Or what about non denominational Christians like solar?

Figure it out.  Many churches allow non-members to be married, they just charge more.  Every state allows non-pastors to be ordained to officiate weddings.  My brother's friend got ordained on the internet and officiated their wedding.

https://theamm.org/ordination-application

If there's enough demand for non-church members who want to do a "marriage", someone will supply the service

QuoteRight. Exactly. Since it is a generic religious and socioeconomic concept and not specific to any one religion like Christianity it passes the freedom of religion test. 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Quote from: ZenMode on December 13, 2022, 08:19:35 AMFigure it out.  Many churches allow non-members to be married, they just charge more.  Every state allows non-pastors to be ordained to officiate weddings.  My brother's friend got ordained on the internet and officiated their wedding.

https://theamm.org/ordination-application

If there's enough demand for non-church members who want to do a "marriage", someone will supply the service I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

I'll be damned if I can figure out why you are spending all this time playing make believe, how we can change the definition of marriage to make everyone happy. In all of these posts, did you ever learn what the definition of marriage is? I mean the actual definition not whatever it is that you are chasing. If you knew what the actual definition was, if we actually practiced what marriage really is, all of this would be irrelevant. Why would an atheist want to take a oath before God knowing they do not believe in God? Why would two men take a oath before God, knowing God would not recognize their union? Why are you looking for ways to make everything fit when from the beginning it was not made for that purpose? I know the answer, you do not recognize marriage for what it is, the union of a man and a woman BEFORE GOD.

Quote from: ZenMode on December 13, 2022, 08:19:35 AM Figure it out.  Many churches allow non-members to be married, they just charge more.  Every state allows non-pastors to be ordained to officiate weddings.  My brother's friend got ordained on the internet and officiated their wedding.

https://theamm.org/ordination-application

If there's enough demand for non-church members who want to do a "marriage", someone will supply the service

Figure it out? Why should I figure this out? This is your idea so you explain how you want to implement it. You figure it out and tell us how you figured it. What boundaries will you set to stop people from marrying their cousins or from polygamy or bestiality?

QuoteI'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

QuoteNow I'm confused. Marriage IS a religious term, going back thousands of years, but you want, for example, atheists and agnostics getting married?

QuoteRight. Exactly. Since it is a generic religious and socioeconomic concept and not specific to any one religion like Christianity it passes the freedom of religion test.

I am agreeing with your question. Yes when atheists start a family they will have to use the religious institution of marriage.
Then Im saying that that is ok and allowed under the constitution since it passes the freedom of religion test as I explained.

Quote from: T Hunt on December 13, 2022, 10:38:04 AMFigure it out? Why should I figure this out? This is your idea so you explain how you want to implement it. You figure it out and tell us how you figured it.

I already gave several options.  Plus, there's no right to a religious ceremony (because if there was, the churches couldn't deny gay weddings, right?), so if you can't find a church to do a marriage for you because you aren't religious, then become religious or do what I did and fake it.

QuoteWhat boundaries will you set to stop people from marrying their cousins

Whatever stops that from happening now would still happen.

Quoteor from polygamy or bestiality?

I don't care if people want to be in a polygamous relationship.  Animals can't consent, obviously.

QuoteI am agreeing with your question. Yes when atheists start a family they will have to use the religious institution of marriage.
Then Im saying that that is ok and allowed under the constitution since it passes the freedom of religion test as I explained.

"I am agreeing with your question. Yes when atheists start a family they will have to use the religious institution of marriage."

Holy shit... well, that's not at all fascist.

Quote from: ZenMode on December 13, 2022, 12:16:07 PMWhatever stops that from happening now would still happen.

Its illegal now, but it wouldnt be under what you are proposing. Thats why Im asking how you would deal with it.

QuoteI don't care if people want to be in a polygamous relationship.  Animals can't consent, obviously.

Ok so you are cool with polygamy.An animal is owned so its owner can consent for it. What in your proposed system would stop such a thing?

QuoteHoly shit... well, that's not at all fascist.

Are you saying that its not allowed by the constitution?

Quote from: ZenMode on December 13, 2022, 12:16:07 PMI already gave several options.  Plus, there's no right to a religious ceremony (because if there was, the churches couldn't deny gay weddings, right?), so if you can't find a church to do a marriage for you because you aren't religious, then become religious or do what I did and fake it.Whatever stops that from happening now would still happen.

 I don't care if people want to be in a polygamous relationship.

Did you just come out of the closet here?      

But seriously, we have these laws for a reason. Which begs the question over age.
Women marrying toddlers, men marrying children they adopt at a young age?

Where do you draw the line?

Quote from: Solar on December 14, 2022, 04:58:38 AMDid you just come out of the closet here?      

But seriously, we have these laws for a reason. Which begs the question over age.
Women marrying toddlers, men marrying children they adopt at a young age?

Where do you draw the line?

I used to be religious, but wasn't when I got married in a Methodist church.

We already have state laws dictating who can give consent to sex, marriage or enter into contracts. Polygamist sects of the Mormon church have been busted for pedophilia and doing religious ceremonies for underage kids in the past. Nothing would change because the state is still involved, as they always have, in the legal recognition of the union. It's just not called marriage.

Quote from: ZenMode on December 14, 2022, 06:12:17 AMI used to be religious, but wasn't when I got married in a Methodist church.

We already have state laws dictating who can give consent to sex, marriage or enter into contracts. Polygamist sects of the Mormon church have been busted for pedophilia and doing religious ceremonies for underage kids in the past. Nothing would change because the state is still involved, as they always have, in the legal recognition of the union. It's just not called marriage.

Why are those laws OK, but this one needed federal intervention?

Quote from: Solar on December 14, 2022, 06:21:04 AMWhy are those laws OK, but this one needed federal intervention?

The law, I'm assuming, is to make it illegal for states to deiscriminate.  They should be able to say "These two consenting adults can have their relationship legally recognized, but these two consenting adults..well.. they can't because of God".