Quote from: cubedemon on December 04, 2015, 08:03:49 PM
My moral compass is screaming that torture is wrong no matter how many lives it saves.  To commit evil to achieve a good is wrong no matter how you slice it.   

Torture is wrong, murder is wrong, stealing is wrong.  Period!

By your standard all forms of warfare are wrong!   

We should all hold hands and sing kumbaya?

Quote from: kroz on December 05, 2015, 04:13:52 AM

By your standard all forms of warfare are wrong!   

We should all hold hands and sing kumbaya?

WAR and torture are NOT the same.

Read the founders on this topic and get your mind right.

GOD doesn't allow a Nation to survive whose people are this wicked and vile. It shouldn't even be a topic!  Even Trump, as outrageous as he is, was only talking about WATERBOARDING, which is not torture.

Quote from: Solar on December 04, 2015, 07:17:22 PM
One well placed nuke. Changing the hearts and minds of millions, instantly.
To the consistency of a burnt roast.

And THAT is not TORTURE. It is WARFARE.

Quote from: cubedemon on December 04, 2015, 08:03:49 PM
My moral compass is screaming that torture is wrong no matter how many lives it saves.  To commit evil to achieve a good is wrong no matter how you slice it.   

Torture is wrong, murder is wrong, stealing is wrong.  Period!

If torture could save your family from a torturous death at the hands of evil that enjoys the act of torture, would you not be morally obligated to torture?
You as a human have a responsibility to fellow humans to protect them from evil and if your only weapon available is that from the torturers arsenal and you refuse to use it, you are on equal footing with evil for refusing to stop it when you had the chance.

Why you equate torture on equal footing with death is beyond me, but it appears you would sentence innocents to death, if it meant pardoning evil from a moment of pain.

Quote from: carlb on December 05, 2015, 04:24:13 AM
WAR and torture are NOT the same.

Read the founders on this topic and get your mind right.

GOD doesn't allow a Nation to survive whose people are this wicked and vile. It shouldn't even be a topic!  Even Trump, as outrageous as he is, was only talking about WATERBOARDING, which is not torture.

But you linked torture with murder and stealing.  In warfare snipers murder people.  Right?

We ARE talking about warfare here.  We definitely do things in warfare that are taboo in normal life.  Can you not separate them?

Quote from: carlb on December 05, 2015, 04:28:58 AM
And THAT is not TORTURE. It is WARFARE.

Pure Bull Shit! Tell that to the survivors.
This was my point about a warped/sanitized Hollyweird fantasy view of war, where every bullet kills instantly, and every bomb has the perfect kill radius.
War by it's very definition is torture of varying degrees.

Quote from: cubedemon on December 04, 2015, 08:05:02 PM
How do we not become barbarians ourselves if we use barbarian methods?

One sure way to become barbarians is to submit to barbarians and agree to emulate them.  I choose to fight with whatever means necessary.  Those of us who feel as I do will protect those of you too cowardly to defend yourselves.  I take it that by your "Moral compass" you are willing to surrender and accept whatever consequences await you.  I don't.  I choose to fight with whatever means are at hand to protect my country, my family, my friends and myself. 

Quote from: kroz on December 05, 2015, 05:32:33 AM
But you linked torture with murder and stealing.  In warfare snipers murder people.  Right?

Did I?  Where?

No, snipers don't MURDER people.  Are you really so obtuse that you don't understand the difference?

Define "murder.'

And no solar, KILLING and ACCIDENTAL Maiming That comes in WAR is not TORTURE.

Don't do the libs game. Words have definitions.

Running a drill into someone skull is torture. Pulling out fingernails is torture. Burning genitals is torture

ASSANINATION, is not torture. Neither is it MURDER.

When will you address WHY you're so far out of touch with the Founders on this?  Why are you so far to the left of Trump on this?

Quote from: carlb on December 05, 2015, 06:50:15 AM
Did I?  Where?

No, snipers don't MURDER people.  Are you really so obtuse that you don't understand the difference?

Define "murder.'

And no solar, KILLING and ACCIDENTAL Maiming That comes in WAR is not TORTURE.

There is no such thing as accidental when bombing, calling it collateral damage is nothing more than a sofetr definition of "OPS, we fucked up.

QuoteDon't do the libs game. Words have definitions.

Running a drill into someone skull is torture. Pulling out fingernails is torture. Burning genitals is torture

ASSANINATION, is not torture. Neither is it MURDER.

When will you address WHY you're so far out of touch with the Founders on this?  Why are you so far to the left of Trump on this?

I notice you have yet to answer my earlier query into the torture and murder of your own family.
I suspect you and I both know the answer, but for you to admit the truth, blows your entire silly rationale of "Moral high ground" out the window.

I can see where you guys are coming from on this.  You guys want to protect your loved ones.   I understand the need to do that.

Please try to understand where I'm coming from too.


What I fear is we becoming the very wicked thing we wish to destroy.  If we must use torture (which I find morally repugnant but it is equally morally repugnant not to protect your loved ones)

a.  If there is any other way to achieve the noble end can we do it?

b.  should there be limits and how far should it go?  Can rape be used as a form of torture?   ripping off finger nails?  burning?

c.  if we must do it how do we make sure we don't come to enjoy inflicting it?

d.  how do we make sure we use it for the right reasons?  what are the right reasons?   Can law enforcement use it?

e.  How do we insure there are no false positive confessions like there was with the inquisition.   

f.   What if the person being tortured really doesn't know anything?   How do we establish this so unnecessary is not performed ?

Quote from: cubedemon on December 05, 2015, 07:49:29 AM
I can see where you guys are coming from on this.  You guys want to protect your loved ones.   I understand the need to do that.

Please try to understand where I'm coming from too.


What I fear is we becoming the very wicked thing we wish to destroy.  If we must use torture (which I find morally repugnant but it is equally morally repugnant not to protect your loved ones)

a.  If there is any other way to achieve the noble end can we do it?

b.  should there be limits and how far should it go?  Can rape be used as a form of torture?   ripping off finger nails?  burning?

c.  if we must do it how do we make sure we don't come to enjoy inflicting it?

d.  how do we make sure we use it for the right reasons?  what are the right reasons?   Can law enforcement use it?

e.  How do we insure there are no false positive confessions like there was with the inquisition.   

f.   What if the person being tortured really doesn't know anything?   How do we establish this so unnecessary is not performed ?

Would you retaliate with dirt clods in a rock fight, or rocks in a knife fight, or knives in a gun fight, would you take the moral high ground as your argument against your enemy that beheads? All pointless, don't you think?
Point is, when you're at war, you never tell the enemy what you refuse to use, in fact, you convince them you want to use the dirtiest weapon in your arsenal.

See  Reply #4 on the first page. I don't want it reserved merely as a tool for gathering intelligence, I want it used as a psychological weapon to freak out the enemy.
Yeah, that's right, show them beheading is child's play compared to the brutality we look forward to using on them.

We are either in it to win, or we're not and they need to understand our resolve to win makes theirs out to look like a tea party.

Quote from: cubedemon on December 05, 2015, 07:49:29 AM
I can see where you guys are coming from on this.  You guys want to protect your loved ones.   I understand the need to do that.

Please try to understand where I'm coming from too.


What I fear is we becoming the very wicked thing we wish to destroy.  If we must use torture (which I find morally repugnant but it is equally morally repugnant not to protect your loved ones)

a.  If there is any other way to achieve the noble end can we do it?

b.  should there be limits and how far should it go?  Can rape be used as a form of torture?   ripping off finger nails?  burning?

c.  if we must do it how do we make sure we don't come to enjoy inflicting it?

d.  how do we make sure we use it for the right reasons?  what are the right reasons?   Can law enforcement use it?

e.  How do we insure there are no false positive confessions like there was with the inquisition.   

f.   What if the person being tortured really doesn't know anything?   How do we establish this so unnecessary is not performed ?

a.  Yes.
b.  No rape, no disfiguring. No permanent disability.
c.   No guarantee, but we will be alive as will our loved ones.
d.  The right reason is survival.  "Right" is subjective.
e.   Possibly.
f.    Then he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.   We aren't stupid.  We can determine who might be an asset to us.

Whoah.

Tough Call.

Torture as REVENGE - Never.

Torture - if - it will save lives - maybe.

But we would have to be pretty damn sure.