Quote from: taxed on June 12, 2015, 01:35:42 PM
What exactly happened?

What happened was that he was in police custody when he was injured, an injury that led to his death. Now who would you suggest was responsible? My first thought would be the people whose custody he was in. Occam's razor.

Quote from: Solar on June 12, 2015, 01:46:33 PM
Jeeez! What part of personal responsibility do you not get?
I grew up in one of these shit holes and guess what? I got the Hell out, just like these people can do, orrrr...They could ban together with neighborhood watch and clean the place up. But that falls to back to that thing called personal responsibility.

There is a huge difference in poor neighborhoods, and shit holes like you find in DC.

SO THE FUCK DID I!!!! Were you a criminal? Were ALL of the people who lived in those areas criminals.
You people sound insane. You say it's wrong to accuse any cop of bad behavior because the majority of police are good men and women; and then you turn around in the very next breath and say it's just fine to treat all minorities in the Inner Cities as criminals because a minority are. A majority of good cops makes all cops innocent; but a minority of city residents makes them all guilty. And you don't even recognize the problem with that "logic".

Quote from: bluelieu on June 12, 2015, 08:22:25 PM
Giles, he FLED  the scene...he didn't saunter off...THAT is reasonable suspicion for a stop and search...the search led to a "switchblade"...I am not from your state, but in NYS  that is possession of a DEADLY WEAPON..a Felony....and I have never advocated for special treatment under the law for cops.  But Freddie Gray's arrest was legit...his custody was problematic.

And of course you should just stand there and gawk, when the police show up in force, to arrest a group of possibly armed drug dealers. Those dealers may not want to go to jail. I see you wouldn't mind being the innocent bystander, who gets killed. If you have lived in those neighborhoods all your life, what would be your reaction if there was the possibility of gunplay!

Quote from: Billy's bayonet on June 12, 2015, 05:24:01 PM

Whats YOUR solution, you don;t want the cops to do anything to protect themselves, you want them indicted everytime the use force, you want them so INTIMIDATED they are in effective, which is exactly what the left wantd.

WHATS THE ALTERNATIVE?????

A disarmed, disbanded police? Taken over by Federal Authority under some "Ombudsman" in Washington DC.....or....as you not in another thread....Muslims in charge of the police Dept?

By the way, although small Govt is a conservative bench mark  SO IS LAW AND ORDER, with out such business and free enterprise cannot exist.

The difference between you and I, is I don't think of shooting anybody and everybody as "protecting themselves". And I don't think the lives of any police officer are any more special than the lives of any other citizen. Because that's what it comes down to, a group of people who believe their lives are worth more than anyone else's.

Quote from: mdgiles on June 13, 2015, 12:49:42 PM
Not an attitude, just reality. And are you suggesting that if you are poor, you should be content to be treated badly. The nerve of those people, not being as wealthy as you feel they should be! I guess the fact of their bing poor and being used for target practice by some police, can be thought of as incentive.

Ya know, you're making every cop into Dirty Harry, and excusing a whole lot of self-induced problems created by people who WANT lawlessness and neighborhood anarchy. If you want the criminals to win --- whatever race they are --- then your first boldest step is to drive out law enforcement and leave the predators in charge.

Tell me: what have black drug kingpins done to improve life for blacks in their cities? Aside from addicts, who do they listen to at all, having their way because cops don't dare invade their territory?

One of the original points has been lost in the discussion. That is, black men attach a peer pressed stigma to cooperating with the law, much less joining it. So you have another qualification non blacks and the Latin sector who associates with them must factor in; namely, independence of mind.
That's easier said than done. This is a culture that has developed a resentment of authority. It goes all the way to the present occupant of the White House. He's got the chip. But he can go home to the White House. The working man has to go home to his house in the neighborhood.

Quote from: mdgiles on June 13, 2015, 12:54:27 PM
What happened was that he was in police custody when he was injured, an injury that led to his death. Now who would you suggest was responsible? My first thought would be the people whose custody he was in. Occam's razor.

A sniper took out the guy in a stand off with Dallas police.   Do you think that was Occam's razor too? 

Quote from: mdgiles on June 13, 2015, 12:49:42 PM
Not an attitude, just reality. And are you suggesting that if you are poor, you should be content to be treated badly. The nerve of those people, not being as wealthy as you feel they should be! I guess the fact of their bing poor and being used for target practice by some police, can be thought of as incentive.

What has money to do with acting like complete degenerates?
There are no boundaries outside of stupidiity keeping these people on the Dim plantation. They make the choice in 90% of the cases to stay.
No, I have no sympathy for people that stay and live in squalor.

Do you actually think police want to harass people? I remember ignoring the petty shit, all because it tied me up from taking real emergency calls as well as the damned paperwork involved for a simple stop.
Believe me, paperwork is half the damn job, and you better be damned sure you dot your I's and cross your T's or you can expect a reprimand and possible lawsuit, so it's always better to avoid the bull shit.

Quote from: mdgiles on June 13, 2015, 12:54:27 PM
What happened was that he was in police custody when he was injured, an injury that led to his death. Now who would you suggest was responsible? My first thought would be the people whose custody he was in. Occam's razor.

So the fact that this idiot had been told to stay home and recuperate by his doctor, instead goes out and deals drugs, in no way puts any of the onerous of responsibility on the perp?
Money says he would not have died if not for a previous surgery.

Quote from: mdgiles on June 13, 2015, 01:02:14 PM
SO THE FUCK DID I!!!! Were you a criminal? Were ALL of the people who lived in those areas criminals.
You people sound insane. You say it's wrong to accuse any cop of bad behavior because the majority of police are good men and women; and then you turn around in the very next breath and say it's just fine to treat all minorities in the Inner Cities as criminals because a minority are. A majority of good cops makes all cops innocent; but a minority of city residents makes them all guilty. And you don't even recognize the problem with that "logic".

What in the fuck are you babbling about?
Try actually responding to what I said rather than putting words in my mouth, posting straw men and hyperbole, can you do that?

Quote from: Solar on June 13, 2015, 02:26:42 PMMoney says he would not have died if not for a previous surgery.

I heard that in the beginning, but can't find where he had surgery.  I know he was sick from lead poisoning.

Quote from: Dori on June 13, 2015, 02:31:16 PM
I heard that in the beginning, but can't find where he had surgery.  I know he was sick from lead poisoning.

Don't tell me that was a bogus lie? It was all over the news the following day.
If true, that would shed a different light on the incident.
I remember hearing a reporter say the M/E had stated it in prelim reports.

Quote from: mdgiles on June 13, 2015, 01:13:20 PM
The difference between you and I, is I don't think of shooting anybody and everybody as "protecting themselves". And I don't think the lives of any police officer are any more special than the lives of any other citizen. Because that's what it comes down to, a group of people who believe their lives are worth more than anyone else's.

That attitude isn't shared by everyone and you know it.  The wives and the children and parents of these policemen and policewomen, black and white or any other flavor,  certainly have a different opinion of the worth of these folks.  You want to do their job?  Think you can do it any better than they can?  The majority of these folks have proven their worth by going out everyday and risking their lives.  Are there some off the chain ones?  Yep, there are these in every walk of life but they don't always get by, justice does prevail.  When you try to do a job that does little good to straighten out the messes made by ordinary men and women and is made even worse by the people who abet them and disrespect you for trying to do good, then say whose lives are more important.  God does the judging. 

Thugs and criminals have too many rights.  The very acts they commit that are unlawful puts them in the wrong path to think they deserve some kind of special treatment based solely on the fact that life was too hard for them or they couldn't get whatever it was they wanted without being crooked or that they suffered some kind of mental state due to the actions of others against them.  Hey, we all go thru these things and it  doesn't matter what color your skin is either.  You don't want to know my story because it ain't none of your business.  Neither is it any one else's business.  I chose way back in my life to not be a sub species or a statistic and that done by realizing that I and I alone would have to answer for whatever it is that I have done in my life.  When you get right down to it, what else and who else will decide how you spend eternity?  We've got one chance here to do good or bad and that is something we all have to do regardless of the odds against us. 

Quote from: mdgiles on June 13, 2015, 01:09:07 PM
And of course you should just stand there and gawk, when the police show up in force, to arrest a group of possibly armed drug dealers. Those dealers may not want to go to jail. I see you wouldn't mind being the innocent bystander, who gets killed. If you have lived in those neighborhoods all your life, what would be your reaction if there was the possibility of gunplay!

Your scenario does not change a thing in establishing reasonable suspicion for a stop and search.  The cops had EVERY right to stop, question and search Gray once he fled upon their arrival.  If he had no knife, he would have been free to go...everything in his interaction with the Baltimore PD was legal until he was placed in the van.  If he was the subject of hard ride that is where the criminality began.  The pursuit, detainment, search and arrest were ALL legal.

Quote from: mdgiles on June 13, 2015, 01:13:20 PM
And I don't think the lives of any police officer are any more special than the lives of any other citizen. Because that's what it comes down to, a group of people who believe their lives are worth more than anyone else's.

No, what it comes down to is a segment of society that thinks they do not have to comply with lawful stops and detainment.  When you resist police acting in accordance with their lawful powers the odds of a tragic confrontation (for either party) increases dramatically.  Once committed to taking you into custody, you can not expect a police officer to just walk away because you don't want to go.  The more you resist, the more force the officer can employ.  Intentional use of deadly force should only be utilized when there is a risk of serious bodily harm or death.  Whenever it is utilized, the DA (usually via a grand jury) has the right to review the incident to see if the officer was justified. 

I, personally, have never met an officer who voiced an opinion that cops lives were worth more.  However, when in a violent confrontation, my life, my partner's life, and innocent citizen's lives trump the criminal's if a choice has to be made.

The Freddie Gray case did contain an element of resistance, but certainly not enough to warrant deadly force.  Then again, he didn't die during apprehension, he died from injuries allegedly inflicted while in custody, which, if true, deserves punishment being meted out (after trial, of course).