Quote from: steve folkster on May 15, 2015, 10:20:03 AM
the petson was there in 1998 essentially after the invasion and he vacked up what i said.  Indonesia invaded east timor with us blessing and weapons.  Thus yes indonesian muslims did the killing against east timorese christians.  The us didnt kill one oerson directly but through indonesia.

I like anerican culture.  American people.  The fact that we are the freest country on earth.  American charitable nature.  I like thar we beat the crap out of facists. I dont like when we comitt crimes.

I repeat --- spellcheck is your friend. And no, you are obviously incapable of saying nice things about America. All you snivel about are its alleged crimes.

Quote from: Billy's bayonet on May 15, 2015, 11:11:30 AM
I'm arguing with your speculated version of events which ignores historical fact of Russia seizing huge partitions of Iran.
Viewed in that context what LOGICALLY do you think was the end game for Stalin/Soviets regarding Iran and its oil resources?

And you are just plain wrong about communist influences, the Tuedah Party threw their support behind Mossadeq over nationalism

Check Mate

Russia had nothing to do with this and you can pretend all you want.
The US and British described Iranian popular opinion during these years as unwilling to "subordinate personal interests to communal ones.  They are vain and conceited."  "Nearly all classes have a passion for personal gain and are ready to do most things for money."   That the salvation of Iran "would be a twenty year occupation of a foreign power."   Documents made clear that they decided to fabricate a story that Mossadeq was smoking opium.  They referred to him as the "wily oriental" with "short and stuby legs." 

The General they picked to help orchestrate the coup was General Zahedi who was a reunound anti-semite with ties to NAZI Germany. 

They came up with a plan to "portry him as favoring the communists" though some worried, like Dean Acheson, that such a plan was silly, since it would be so obviously fake since it was obvious he in no way favored communists and had rebuffed numerous Russian offers.

They also put out a story that "the communists are plotting against Musaddiq's life, and are trying to plant responsbilty onto the British."
Leaflets wre sent out "in the name of tudeh heralding the imminent dawn of a bright new atheist republic."  Note, not that Mossadiq was going to start the communist republic but that his overthrow was imminent.  This was in an effort to "Destabilize the regime" to make it prime for the coup.  Articles were planted that "tudeh had infiltrated the nationalist front" and were planning a coup. Tudeh at the time had "20,000 members" and was "in no position seize power."  The British and American government complained of Mossadeqs neutrality and "new he was as distrustful of the Soviet Union as of the United states." 

In fact, prior to the oil disagreement with England, The Truman administration was warning that "if Mossadeq was not helped the tudeh(communsits) would take over."   England replied that "Tudeh was no real threat."   

All sources from the declassified archves:

Quote from: steve folkster on May 15, 2015, 08:54:54 AM


Abstract
Iraq is suffering from depleted uranium (DU) pollution in many regions and the effects of this may harm public health through poisoning and increased incidence of various cancers and birth defects. DU is a known carcinogenic agent. About 1200 tonnes of ammunition were dropped on Iraq during the Gulf Wars of 1991 and 2003. As a result, contamination occurred in more than 350 sites in Iraq. Currently, Iraqis are facing about 140,000 cases of cancer, with 7000 to 8000 new ones registered  each year. In Baghdad cancer incidences per 100,000 population have increased, just as they have also increased in Basra. The overall incidence of breast and lung cancer , Leukaemia and Lymphoma, has doubled, even tripled. The situation in Mosul city is similar to other regions. Before the Gulf Wars Mosul had a higher rate of cancer, but the rate of cancer has further increased since the Gulf Wars.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13623699.2013.765173#.VVYTfsvjhoI

Depleted uranium and cancer in Danish Balkan veterans deployed 1992–2001
HH Storm, HO Jørgensen, AMT Kejs... - ... Journal of Cancer, 2006 - Elsevier
... 8 cases], France [5 cases], The Netherlands [2 cases], Denmark [2 cases] were linked to the use
of depleted uranium (DU) enforced ... This is a 30% increase in risk. ... by DU was used, as well as
being in agreement with studies of workers with decades of exposure to uranium. ...
Cited by 38 Related articles All 6 versions Cite SaveSaved


http://truthalerts.com/iraqi-birth-defects-worse-than-hiroshima/


That's now56 citations.  Most recent research which I didn't even read yet, said that cancner rate in Iraq has gone up 4000% with 14..7 out of every 100 children born with birth defects.  Especailly in Fallujah where heavy use of white phorpohours and DU were found.

Is it possible that DU isn't the cause?  Absolutely.  But the research seems pretty heavy that it plays a role.  Perhaps we shouldn't use till we know huh?

I don't care how old you are.  Someone who has seen as much as you should not be alleging I get my views from Proffessors without a shred of evidence.  I get my views from my own research.  Such childish debate tactics are right in line with you calling me a leftist, a lib or whatever slander is your choice for the moment.

Such evasive debate tactits are merely confirmation of your inability to discuss the issues.  As I said you are out of your league here.

A meteor may fall out of the sky and drop on my head.  Not probable though.

Quote from: Billy's bayonet on May 15, 2015, 10:33:06 AM

He was no communist....yet he was trying to Nationalize Oil.....your own words   

Quote from: taxed on May 15, 2015, 01:29:09 PM

Make all those smiley faces all you want.  I just quoted and cited Dean Acheson, Truman, Eisenhower, the British Foreign Office and the coup planners as decisively saying he was not communist.  Mossadeq was demonstrably anti-communist and in fact imposed harsh measures on them.  Your ineptitude at learning is not by responstility to remedy.

To think nationalizing a resource equals communism is to emit nothing but ignorance.

So put your smiley faces at those leaders I quoted and continue to show your best contribution to this site is smiley faces devoid of any intellectual refrain.

As for your metor in your head analogy.  That the cancer rates have risen thosuands of percentage points is not in doubt.  The question is what the precise cause is with the majority of the research blaming DU.

You are a joke and your impotent response is not something men of intellect take seriously.

I cam on this site and single handedly destroyed every one of you.

Still  looking for intelligent debaters.

Quote from: steve folkster on May 15, 2015, 01:42:45 PM
Make all those smiley faces all you want.  I just quoted and cited Dean Acheson, Truman, Eisenhower, the British Foreign Office and the coup planners as decisively saying he was not communist.  Mossadeq was demonstrably anti-communist and in fact imposed harsh measures on them.  Your ineptitude at learning is not by responstility to remedy.

To think nationalizing a resource equals communism is to emit nothing but ignorance.

So put your smiley faces at those leaders I quoted and continue to show your best contribution to this site is smiley faces devoid of any intellectual refrain.

As for your metor in your head analogy.  That the cancer rates have risen thosuands of percentage points is not in doubt.  The question is what the precise cause is with the majority of the research blaming DU.

You are a joke and your impotent response is not something men of intellect take seriously.

I cam on this site and single handedly destroyed every one of you.

Still  looking for intelligent debaters.

You're getting your ass kicked by people with more knowledge and experience than you.  You're not the first anti-American liberal to come in here and get stomped, so please give me some leeway to laugh at you when you fall on your face.

Still waiting for proof that DU has been harming our soldiers, supporting your point that the US violates human rights.

Quote from: taxed on May 15, 2015, 01:47:39 PM
You're getting your ass kicked by people with more knowledge and experience than you.  You're not the first anti-American liberal to come in here and get stomped, so please give me some leeway to laugh at you when you fall on your face.

Still waiting for proof that DU has been harming our soldiers, supporting your point that the US violates human rights.

Another comment from you devoid of any position or fact.  Anyone can write what you just wrote as it is just a statement without substance source, etc.

The fact that you are calling me a liberal is hysterical, as I am not. I am just a learned person who knows so much more then you its not even funny.

The sources, now 56, have been provided to you.  Pick one and read one.

Otherwise come up with something.

I am the only one here who cites a fact. 
You are typing lol repetitively cause you have nothing to offer on any topic other then to say the word lib, Marxist, muslim, etc.  Comically, you don't even know what one of the words means.

Anybody who thinks nationalizing and industry equates communism is an utter moron.  It is such a profoundly ignorant statement that it literally discredits virtually anything else what can say. 

Mossadeq was, as I have cited, not a communist according to himself, dean Acheson, harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, the entire british foreign office, the cia, nsa, the irranian people, the soviet union, the communist party within Iran, all of scholarship, etc.

You and nobody else has any response to that.  The CIA coup, which installed a brutal dictator who tortured and killed thousands of peoples, is a classic example of a human rights abuse and one that is no longer debtable, as the documets of the error that outline the policy are fully released.

You are joke and until you respond with substance I will ignore you from here on out.

Quote from: taxed on May 15, 2015, 01:23:23 PM
A meteor may fall out of the sky and drop on my head.  Not probable though.

I've got an image for that. 

Quote from: steve folkster on May 15, 2015, 01:57:24 PM
Another comment from you devoid of any position or fact.  Anyone can write what you just wrote as it is just a statement without substance source, etc.

I'm the one waiting for you to prove your claims.  You picked DU, and fell on your face hard.  You tried to use it to support your claim that the US is a human rights violater.

Quote
The fact that you are calling me a liberal is hysterical, as I am not. I am just a learned person who knows so much more then you its not even funny.

You're not learned, but don't worry so much about that.  Liberals always think they're learned, when they know nothing.  I am convinced, acadamia hurts students by eliminating critical thinking, and indoctrinating them with Marxist propganda.  It sounds like you have gagged a time or two on that spoon.

Quote
The sources, now 56, have been provided to you.  Pick one and read one.

I read a few.  Nothing that proved DU hurts our soldiers.  You parroters have been trying to push this for a few years, but smart, intellectual people don't buy it.  There may be a possibility, but nothing remotely close has been proven.  You're trying to sell me on BS, and as a logical person, I remain unconvinced.  Find me something real and concrete, and I can be convinced.  I am not married to any position.  I'm simply saying "prove it", or at the least, show me something close enough.  I understand if people eat it or take a bath in it, it can cause some problems.  That's not what I'm lookign for.  I'm asking how it has been hurting our soldiers.  You have nothing to show, so far.

Quote
Otherwise come up with something.

I let the facts stand on their own.

Quote
I am the only one here who cites a fact. 

No, you're not -- on any topic up to this point.  You clutching your fists and jumping up and down, telling us we're wrong and you're right might work elsewhere, but not here.

Quote
You are typing lol repetitively cause you have nothing to offer on any topic other then to say the word lib, Marxist, muslim, etc.  Comically, you don't even know what one of the words means.

Actually, I do.  You are the one who came here and said, for example, that Hussein isn't a Marxist.  That instantly proves you don't even know what you're talking about.

Quote
Anybody who thinks nationalizing and industry equates communism is an utter moron.  It is such a profoundly ignorant statement that it literally discredits virtually anything else what can say.

Communism is about private property.  You got me.

Quote
Mossadeq was, as I have cited, not a communist according to himself, dean Acheson, harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, the entire british foreign office, the cia, nsa, the irranian people, the soviet union, the communist party within Iran, all of scholarship, etc.

That's always an identifyer of a Marxist.  Academia is an area where Marxists can enter, guilt free with a clear concious, and is really the only place a Marxist can point to for validation of Marxist propoganda.  Marxsim falls apart in the free market and the real world, hence why you pointing to academia is sort of a joke.

Quote
You and nobody else has any response to that.  The CIA coup, which installed a brutal dictator who tortured and killed thousands of peoples, is a classic example of a human rights abuse and one that is no longer debtable, as the documets of the error that outline the policy are fully released.

Start a thread on it and defend it.

Quote
You are joke and until you respond with substance I will ignore you from here on out.

You've already been ignoring me.

Quote from: taxed on May 15, 2015, 02:24:04 PM
Communism is about private property.  You got me.

Say it ain't so, comrade!

Quote from: steve folkster on May 15, 2015, 12:00:00 PM
Check Mate

Russia had nothing to do with this and you can pretend all you want.
The US and British described Iranian popular opinion during these years as unwilling to "subordinate personal interests to communal ones.  They are vain and conceited."  "Nearly all classes have a passion for personal gain and are ready to do most things for money."   That the salvation of Iran "would be a twenty year occupation of a foreign power."   Documents made clear that they decided to fabricate a story that Mossadeq was smoking opium.  They referred to him as the "wily oriental" with "short and stuby legs." 

The General they picked to help orchestrate the coup was General Zahedi who was a reunound anti-semite with ties to NAZI Germany. 

They came up with a plan to "portry him as favoring the communists" though some worried, like Dean Acheson, that such a plan was silly, since it would be so obviously fake since it was obvious he in no way favored communists and had rebuffed numerous Russian offers.

They also put out a story that "the communists are plotting against Musaddiq's life, and are trying to plant responsbilty onto the British."
Leaflets wre sent out "in the name of tudeh heralding the imminent dawn of a bright new atheist republic."  Note, not that Mossadiq was going to start the communist republic but that his overthrow was imminent.  This was in an effort to "Destabilize the regime" to make it prime for the coup.  Articles were planted that "tudeh had infiltrated the nationalist front" and were planning a coup. Tudeh at the time had "20,000 members" and was "in no position seize power."  The British and American government complained of Mossadeqs neutrality and "new he was as distrustful of the Soviet Union as of the United states." 

In fact, prior to the oil disagreement with England, The Truman administration was warning that "if Mossadeq was not helped the tudeh(communsits) would take over."   England replied that "Tudeh was no real threat."   

All sources from the declassified archves:

Blah blah blah, present half facts, half truths and ignore the rest, Besides what kind of Imbecile truly beleives that the world was a better place because the Shah of Iran was deposed? If the Shah had been supported by Carter maybe just maybe all this crap wouldn't be going on...ever think of that?

Maybe, just maybe the US wouldn't have had to gone into Iraq and spray the shit out of Iraq (russian) armour with 20 and 30 MM depleted uranium shells.

and IF you are going to use "declassified" archives as the basis of your argument then POST THE LINK so that all may read the entire brief not just what you cherry pick to present your anti American Propaganda.

Quote from: steve folkster on May 15, 2015, 12:00:00 PM
Check Mate

Russia had nothing to do with this and you can pretend all you want.
The US and British described Iranian popular opinion during these years as unwilling to "subordinate personal interests to communal ones.  They are vain and conceited."  "Nearly all classes have a passion for personal gain and are ready to do most things for money."   That the salvation of Iran "would be a twenty year occupation of a foreign power."   Documents made clear that they decided to fabricate a story that Mossadeq was smoking opium.  They referred to him as the "wily oriental" with "short and stuby legs." 

The General they picked to help orchestrate the coup was General Zahedi who was a reunound anti-semite with ties to NAZI Germany. 

They came up with a plan to "portry him as favoring the communists" though some worried, like Dean Acheson, that such a plan was silly, since it would be so obviously fake since it was obvious he in no way favored communists and had rebuffed numerous Russian offers.

They also put out a story that "the communists are plotting against Musaddiq's life, and are trying to plant responsbilty onto the British."
Leaflets wre sent out "in the name of tudeh heralding the imminent dawn of a bright new atheist republic."  Note, not that Mossadiq was going to start the communist republic but that his overthrow was imminent.  This was in an effort to "Destabilize the regime" to make it prime for the coup.  Articles were planted that "tudeh had infiltrated the nationalist front" and were planning a coup. Tudeh at the time had "20,000 members" and was "in no position seize power."  The British and American government complained of Mossadeqs neutrality and "new he was as distrustful of the Soviet Union as of the United states." 

In fact, prior to the oil disagreement with England, The Truman administration was warning that "if Mossadeq was not helped the tudeh(communsits) would take over."   England replied that "Tudeh was no real threat."   

All sources from the declassified archves:

Source?

Quote from: taxed on May 15, 2015, 02:24:04 PM
I'm the one waiting for you to prove your claims.  You picked DU, and fell on your face hard.  You tried to use it to support your claim that the US is a human rights violater.
You're not learned, but don't worry so much about that.  Liberals always think they're learned, when they know nothing.  I am convinced, acadamia hurts students by eliminating critical thinking, and indoctrinating them with Marxist propganda.  It sounds like you have gagged a time or two on that spoon.
I read a few.  Nothing that proved DU hurts our soldiers.  You parroters have been trying to push this for a few years, but smart, intellectual people don't buy it.  There may be a possibility, but nothing remotely close has been proven.  You're trying to sell me on BS, and as a logical person, I remain unconvinced.  Find me something real and concrete, and I can be convinced.  I am not married to any position.  I'm simply saying "prove it", or at the least, show me something close enough.  I understand if people eat it or take a bath in it, it can cause some problems.  That's not what I'm lookign for.  I'm asking how it has been hurting our soldiers.  You have nothing to show, so far.

I let the facts stand on their own.

No, you're not -- on any topic up to this point.  You clutching your fists and jumping up and down, telling us we're wrong and you're right might work elsewhere, but not here.

Actually, I do.  You are the one who came here and said, for example, that Hussein isn't a Marxist.  That instantly proves you don't even know what you're talking about.

Communism is about private property.  You got me.

That's always an identifyer of a Marxist.  Academia is an area where Marxists can enter, guilt free with a clear concious, and is really the only place a Marxist can point to for validation of Marxist propoganda.  Marxsim falls apart in the free market and the real world, hence why you pointing to academia is sort of a joke.

Start a thread on it and defend it.

You've already been ignoring me.

He thinks his outlook is unique, but like so many 20 somethings raised primarily by mom whom instilled in him feminine ideals of the bleeding heart, that all aggression is bad, especially where Bush was concerned and the US Govt can't be trusted, but the UN can.
Never once considering the UN is run by American hating commies and Muscum, that see the US as an impediment to the destruction of Israel.

He thinks he's an informed and reformed enlightened lib, one that voted for the so "acclaimed black" guy because it was time, now realizes what a mistake he made as a ignorant follower, but still hate Republicans because mom did.
So now he considers himself a Libertarian, when in fact he just a self appointed LIBertarian, that hasn't a clue as to what it means to be one, or what values real Libertarians hold.

But somehow this kid thinks he's smarter than everyone else because he doesn't source American propaganda, no...He sources the UN, and other enemies of capitalism and Western culture.
Instead of having the ability for critical thought, he absorbs this nonsense as truth, never once questioning it, then regurgitates it here and thinks he has bested people with 10 times the life experience he has, a person who has yet to carve their own place out in life, marry, raise a family, but still thinks he has all the answers.

You know the type? The lib that comes in telling us business owners how to run a business because they have the experience from years at the drive-up window handing out fries and burgers.
Fact is, one day reality will hit him, he'll discover we were right, Hussein is a Marxist, that was raised by communists that hate America, someone who hand picked actual communists to be in his Cabinet from DA to personal adviser.

But until the kid wakes up and figures all this out for himself, there's no getting through to mommy's little "Specthal Jewel".

Quote from: steve folkster on May 13, 2015, 12:44:56 PM
I guess what I am asking is then do all countries have the right to use uranium tipped shells?

Even if you are right about uranium tipped shells, and taking the logic further to include all chemical or biological weapons then the answer is only countries that embrace Liberty and Private property of individuals in accordance with conservative principles have the right to use these weapons.

Enforcement of that right depends on who is in office though, and as we have seen for the last decade when socialists have responsibility to enforce that right then the countries/people's/religions that don't have that right goes on a killing spree.

Fundamentally the difference between conservatives/reactionaries and liberals/socialists is when civilians die because of our application of weapons they are collateral damage or the tragic consequence of the people supporting genocidal tyrants, but with socialists as seen in socialist countries such as for example national socialist Germany or Syria/iraq then the civilians are the target.

Quote from: Mountainshield on May 16, 2015, 05:38:28 AM
Even if you are right about uranium tipped shells, and taking the logic further to include all chemical or biological weapons then the answer is only countries that embrace Liberty and Private property of individuals in accordance with conservative principles have the right to use these weapons.

Enforcement of that right depends on who is in office though, and as we have seen for the last decade when socialists have responsibility to enforce that right then the countries/people's/religions that don't have that right goes on a killing spree.

Fundamentally the difference between conservatives/reactionaries and liberals/socialists is when civilians die because of our application of weapons they are collateral damage or the tragic consequence of the people supporting genocidal tyrants, but with socialists as seen in socialist countries such as for example national socialist Germany or Syria/iraq then the civilians are the target.

That logic is right out of Hitlers mouth.