Quote from: jrodefeld on August 15, 2014, 12:30:46 AM
So what exactly are you willing to sacrifice to deal with the "muslim threat"?  Do you want to install democracy?  Do you think we need to support Israel militarily and financially, even if it makes us less safe?  Do you want to intervene in the middle east through propping up puppet dictators?

And how much money is it worth so you will feel safe?

ROFL!!! You think this is about "feelings"? It's about supporting your ally's, especially when our shared enemy has sworn to remove us from the face of the earth.
But, no, we should take your approach, bury our heads deep in the sand and hide behind the Constitution.
Got news for ya son, these animals are the very reason we have a military today.
Did Jefferson say we should mind our own business, or did he attack, was Jefferson wrong, is that what you're saying?

So I'll ask you. How would you deal with an enemy that wants to eradicate you? They've told you to your face they will kill you or make you a slave ?
Come on, give us the words of a 20 something sage.

Quote from: jrodefeld on August 15, 2014, 12:26:43 AM
I think that is a pretty unsubstantiated claim.  I don't believe that "muslims" hate us.  Some radical muslims choose to use the tactic of terrorism to strike back at us for a variety of reasons.  It is true that radical Islamic sects teach that Western culture and society, not to mention Christianity, are evil and degenerate.  However, an effective campaign to galvanize popular support for a coordinated network of Al Qaeda terrorists would never be possible based on these reasons alone.  As Robert Pape and others have documented, there was a time when radical muslim leaders tried to gain support for a network of coordinated attacks on American allies and embassies based on only these doctrinaire concerns.  Such an effort was a consistent failure.  People might, in the abstract, object to the rights we grant to women, the freedom we afford our citizens and the fact that we are majority Christian, but they won't risk their lives and devote their time to fight for such abstract principles.

In fact the evidence shows that it was only when people like Osama bin Laden were able to point to occupation, bombing campaigns, the subversion of self determination by installing puppet dictators perpetrated by the United States government that a coordinated and determined Jihadist effort against the United States started to take effect.  Our government has provided the ammunition that radical Muslim leaders need to convert otherwise moderate Muslims, people who would be potential friends and allies, to their cause.

We don't need to be sticking our heads into hornets nests and then complain that we keep getting stung.  This doesn't excuse the killing of innocent people, but if there is a clear cause and effect to our military action, we need to take that seriously and reassess what we are doing.

I didn't realize a culture that stones their women for being victims would otherwise be tolerant of us if we just left them alone.  Thanks for showing me the light!

Quote from: taxed on August 15, 2014, 11:32:07 AM
I didn't realize a culture that stones their women for being victims would otherwise be tolerant of us if we just left them alone.  Thanks for showing me the light!

I have no idea why anyone would think it's a radical sect teaching kids, when the fact is, Wahhabi are the ones in charge of the school system.
An entire generation has been taught this for the last 40+ years in Egypt and surrounding nations.

This is that ignorance I mentioned earlier.

QuoteA member of a strictly orthodox Sunni Muslim sect from Saudi Arabia; strives to purify Islamic beliefs and rejects any innovation occurring after the 3rd century of Islam[/li][/list]

Quote from: jrodefeld on August 15, 2014, 12:26:43 AM
I think that is a pretty unsubstantiated claim.  I don't believe that "muslims" hate us.  Some radical muslims choose to use the tactic of terrorism to strike back at us for a variety of reasons.  It is true that radical Islamic sects teach that Western culture and society, not to mention Christianity, are evil and degenerate.  However, an effective campaign to galvanize popular support for a coordinated network of Al Qaeda terrorists would never be possible based on these reasons alone.  As Robert Pape and others have documented, there was a time when radical muslim leaders tried to gain support for a network of coordinated attacks on American allies and embassies based on only these doctrinaire concerns.  Such an effort was a consistent failure.  People might, in the abstract, object to the rights we grant to women, the freedom we afford our citizens and the fact that we are majority Christian, but they won't risk their lives and devote their time to fight for such abstract principles.

In fact the evidence shows that it was only when people like Osama bin Laden were able to point to occupation, bombing campaigns, the subversion of self determination by installing puppet dictators perpetrated by the United States government that a coordinated and determined Jihadist effort against the United States started to take effect.  Our government has provided the ammunition that radical Muslim leaders need to convert otherwise moderate Muslims, people who would be potential friends and allies, to their cause.

We don't need to be sticking our heads into hornets nests and then complain that we keep getting stung.  This doesn't excuse the killing of innocent people, but if there is a clear cause and effect to our military action, we need to take that seriously and reassess what we are doing.

Jrodefeld, let me tell you what I learned about Muslim's and Islam after spending almost 4 years between Iraq and Afghanistan. My views have change significantly over the years. At first, I thought it was only radical Islam that hated us - this is not the case, Islam as a religion is intolerant of anything that is not Islam. Islam is also a political system, their religious leaders are their politicians, sometimes a "secular" politician will be put in charge for appearances only - but the power remains with the religious leadership. There is no separation of church and state to a Muslim - its the same thing to them.

Islam is 600 years younger then Christianity; and 600 years ago Christians where killing each other and every culture they came in contact with. Not surprisingly, Islam is doing the same thing now.

There is not a single (NONE) place in the world where Islam lives side by side with any other dominant religion or political system in peace. Islam fights the Russians in Chechnya, the Philippines fights an Islamist insurgency, Islamists fight in Bosnia, Croatia. Even the Chinese have a problem with Islamists. And in many places where there are only Muslims - they kill each other; Turkey for example.

Here is the bottom line - Muslims want you to live the Muslim way, or they want you to leave, or they want you to live beneath them (as a slave), or they want you to be dead. They are not interested in coexisting with you, being a friend, sharing... because this is what their religion teaches them god wants.

Quote from: supsalemgr on August 15, 2014, 04:28:17 AM
"I think that is a pretty unsubstantiated claim.  I don't believe that "muslims" hate us."

Just what part of "KILL ALL THE INFIDELS" do you not understand?

Okay, there are 1.6 BILLION Muslims on the planet, okay?  Why can't you understand the danger in making blanket statements condemning 23% of the worlds population? 

Personally, I am non religious.  I think all the worlds organized religions are dangerous.  But I see people as individuals, and judge them on their own merits.  The overwhelming majority of Muslims don't want to "kill all the infidels".  There are 2.6 million Muslims who live in the United States.  Why aren't they planning and carrying out acts of terrorism against the "infidels" that surround them? 

You may protest and say "oh yeah?  But the Quran says..."  Well two can play at that game.  I could just as easily condemn all Christians by quoting passages from the Old Testament.  I could say that all Christians are evil because the Bible says you should kill all homosexuals and murder disobedient children.  But that would be an erroneous argument because there are virtually no Christians who actually believe these things. 

You may be content to simply ratchet up the hostilities between the Christian west and Muslim middle east by stereotyping and ignoring our common humanity, but I am not.  Terrorism is a real problem but your views make it more likely for this extremism to spread. 

Are you incapable of empathizing with the innocent people who are killed by our drones?  The families of the women and children who starved to death as a result of our sanctions?  And the population of Iran who suffered under a brutal dictator, the Shah, who was placed in power by the United States government?  Our CIA overthrew a moderate, popularly elected leader in Mohammad Mossadegh to place a brutal tyrant in power.

Any sane person would grow to hate the foreign power who did this to you and your family.  By saying "they're all just crazy and they hate us for our freedom" you are compounding the problem by ignoring these very real and legitimate grievances.  Like I said before, this doesn't excuse the murder of innocent people but it is easy to see how otherwise reasonable people would be compelled to lash out in any way they could.  Otherwise moderate people grow to emotionally support radical Islam and terrorist efforts.

This has all been extensively documented and researched by experts in the field like the aforementioned Michael Scheuer and Robert Pape.

Quote from: Solar on August 15, 2014, 05:58:48 AM
ROFL!!! You think this is about "feelings"? It's about supporting your ally's, especially when our shared enemy has sworn to remove us from the face of the earth.
But, no, we should take your approach, bury our heads deep in the sand and hide behind the Constitution.
Got news for ya son, these animals are the very reason we have a military today.
Did Jefferson say we should mind our own business, or did he attack, was Jefferson wrong, is that what you're saying?

So I'll ask you. How would you deal with an enemy that wants to eradicate you? They've told you to your face they will kill you or make you a slave ?
Come on, give us the words of a 20 something sage.

Whether or not someone "wants" to eradicate you is beside the point.  The point is whether they have the capability.  And these impoverished third world Muslim nations in the middle east can't possibly touch us.  The threat is WAY overblown.  9/11 occurred because we have foolishly built up a bureaucracy in our intelligence agencies and our military.  The evidence that some hijackers were planning to fly a plane into the World Trade Center was spelled out quite clearly.  The problem was it got buried under the weight of bureaucracy and it never got through to the people who could have done something to prevent it.

I get the feeling you honestly haven't read a thing about this subject.  I've already cited some scholarly work authored by experts in the field of counter terrorism, but I've only heard fear mongering and hyperbole that is reminiscent of listening to Bill O'Reilly or Sean Hannity circa 2005.  If you have some sources to cite that back up your wild claims, I'd love to see them.

Quote from: taxed on August 15, 2014, 11:32:07 AM
I didn't realize a culture that stones their women for being victims would otherwise be tolerant of us if we just left them alone.  Thanks for showing me the light!

Their are moderates in the middle east.  I know this must shock you, but not everyone living in that part of the world is a barbarian.  The problems in the middle east will become problems for them to deal with.  The violence and tribal warfare will become mostly an insular thing.  Within a generation the radicals would probably lose any interest in trying to orchestrate attacks against a country that is minding its own business on the other side of the globe.  They would again terrorize people within their own borders. 

There is a reason we are singled out for attack and other free and non-Muslim nations are left alone.

Free people could spread ideas to the moderates in the Muslim world.  I'd love to hand out leaflets and copies of "For a New Liberty".  Spread the concepts of classical liberalism, individual self ownership and private property rights to the dissidents in those countries.  They need to rise up and overthrow their own tyrannical States and reject Muslim radicalism.  Our military can't accomplish this.  And it is rather naive to even think that the motivation for our occupation and bombing campaigns is to reduce violence and/or make the middle east into a more westernized place.

Can't you see how support for this sort of militarism undermines your stated support for limited government?  It is precisely an expansionary military and constant warfare that has done more than anything else to grow the power of the State and put us into debt over the last half century.

Quote from: jrodefeld on August 15, 2014, 07:44:53 PM
Okay, there are 1.6 BILLION Muslims on the planet, okay?  Why can't you understand the danger in making blanket statements condemning 23% of the worlds population? 

I don't condemn anyone. I just call it like I see it.

Quote from: jrodefeld on August 15, 2014, 07:44:53 PM
Personally, I am non religious.  I think all the worlds organized religions are dangerous.  But I see people as individuals, and judge them on their own merits.  The overwhelming majority of Muslims don't want to "kill all the infidels".  There are 2.6 million Muslims who live in the United States.  Why aren't they planning and carrying out acts of terrorism against the "infidels" that surround them? 
You may be content to simply ratchet up the hostilities between the Christian west and Muslim middle east by stereotyping and ignoring our common humanity, but I am not.  Terrorism is a real problem but your views make it more likely for this extremism to spread. 

Here is the difference:
Every few decades, some Christian nut job blows up an abortion clinic; Ministers from all denominations of Christianity are falling over each other to be the first to condemn it and say Jesus does not approve. The Christians call the guy crazy.

Every other day, some Muslim blows up a pizzeria, or some other place filled with as many innocent people as possible. The vast majority of Imams will be calling him a martyr during Friday prayers. They will collect money to pay his family, the children will dance in the street throwing candy. In order to please westerners, some Muslim propaganda groups will put out a very carefully worded statements that 1.never condemn the attacker / 2. never directly say that the attack was wrong / and 3. always blames some other group for instigating everything.

Quote from: jrodefeld on August 15, 2014, 07:44:53 PM
You may protest and say "oh yeah?  But the Quran says..."  Well two can play at that game.  I could just as easily condemn all Christians by quoting passages from the Old Testament.  I could say that all Christians are evil because the Bible says you should kill all homosexuals and murder disobedient children.  But that would be an erroneous argument because there are virtually no Christians who actually believe these things.

No, I judge based on what they do, not what their books say.
There are Muslims (entire countries of Muslims) that actually DO kill homosexuals.
They don't just preach, they don't protest and harass homosexuals (like some Christians) - they actually kill them.
The Quran says it and they do it.

Quote from: jrodefeld on August 15, 2014, 07:44:53 PM
Are you incapable of empathizing with the innocent people who are killed by our drones?  The families of the women and children who starved to death as a result of our sanctions?  And the population of Iran who suffered under a brutal dictator, the Shah, who was placed in power by the United States government?  Our CIA overthrew a moderate, popularly elected leader in Mohammad Mossadegh to place a brutal tyrant in power.

Ok, I sympathize.
Now what.
I already support the US butting out of foreign entanglements whenever possible.
Or am I supposed to forgive the poor Muslims for barbaric behavior burning down churches.. blowing up night clubs.. ect.. ect..

Quote from: jrodefeld on August 15, 2014, 07:44:53 PM
Any sane person would grow to hate the foreign power who did this to you and your family.  By saying "they're all just crazy and they hate us for our freedom" you are compounding the problem by ignoring these very real and legitimate grievances.  Like I said before, this doesn't excuse the murder of innocent people but it is easy to see how otherwise reasonable people would be compelled to lash out in any way they could.  Otherwise moderate people grow to emotionally support radical Islam and terrorist efforts.

This has all been extensively documented and researched by experts in the field like the aforementioned Michael Scheuer and Robert Pape

Let me be blunt. They don't hate us for our freedom - They hate us because we don't follow Allah.
They don't just hate us for our transgressions against them - They hate EVERYONE that don't do what Allah wants. What did the Russians do to them? how about the Chinese? the Philippines?, the Indians? ...... did all these countries wrong them?

Do you see Christians, Jews and Buddhists populations trying to over through their governments around the world and create religious states (where they will no doubt make homosexuality punishable by death).

I know the poor Muslims have been victimized by everyone. It's not them, it's the rest of the world.

Quote from: Novanglus on August 15, 2014, 04:12:42 PM
Jrodefeld, let me tell you what I learned about Muslim's and Islam after spending almost 4 years between Iraq and Afghanistan. My views have change significantly over the years. At first, I thought it was only radical Islam that hated us - this is not the case, Islam as a religion is intolerant of anything that is not Islam. Islam is also a political system, their religious leaders are their politicians, sometimes a "secular" politician will be put in charge for appearances only - but the power remains with the religious leadership. There is no separation of church and state to a Muslim - its the same thing to them.

Islam is 600 years younger then Christianity; and 600 years ago Christians where killing each other and every culture they came in contact with. Not surprisingly, Islam is doing the same thing now.

There is not a single (NONE) place in the world where Islam lives side by side with any other dominant religion or political system in peace. Islam fights the Russians in Chechnya, the Philippines fights an Islamist insurgency, Islamists fight in Bosnia, Croatia. Even the Chinese have a problem with Islamists. And in many places where there are only Muslims - they kill each other; Turkey for example.

Here is the bottom line - Muslims want you to live the Muslim way, or they want you to leave, or they want you to live beneath them (as a slave), or they want you to be dead. They are not interested in coexisting with you, being a friend, sharing... because this is what their religion teaches them god wants.

I can't speak to your experience in Iraq and Afghanistan but I maintain that it is irresponsible to paint with a broad brush and write off 1.6 billion people.  I'm not arguing that Islamic cultures are not, by and large, extremely backwards.  But clearly there are places where Muslims assimilate just fine into the cultures that surround them.  I've personally known Muslims and they certainly didn't hate me because I was not a member of their religion.  The 2.3 million Muslims that live in the United States are not plotting to establish Sharia law. 

Yes, many Muslim cultures are extremely behind the evolutionary curve.  But what do you want to do about it?  Each of us are entitled to our opinions about Muslims and about the middle east.  Do you want to go to war to deal with the Muslim "problem"?

I've already stated that a response to 9/11 was of course appropriate.  If any radical Muslim group uses violence against us, then we have every right to respond and bring the criminals to justice.  But I suspect you would have us intervene a lot more beyond that.  My argument is that we should not embolden and empower the most radical elements of Islam.  And that is precisely what our foreign policy has done over the last half a century. 

They might still not like us, but according to experts like Pape, we should expect the dysfunction and violence to be contained within that part of the world if we don't incite them through an aggressive military presence.

Quote from: jrodefeld on August 15, 2014, 07:56:35 PM
Whether or not someone "wants" to eradicate you is beside the point.  The point is whether they have the capability.  And these impoverished third world Muslim nations in the middle east can't possibly touch us.  The threat is WAY overblown.  9/11 occurred because we have foolishly built up a bureaucracy in our intelligence agencies and our military.  The evidence that some hijackers were planning to fly a plane into the World Trade Center was spelled out quite clearly.  The problem was it got buried under the weight of bureaucracy and it never got through to the people who could have done something to prevent it.

I get the feeling you honestly haven't read a thing about this subject.  I've already cited some scholarly work authored by experts in the field of counter terrorism, but I've only heard fear mongering and hyperbole that is reminiscent of listening to Bill O'Reilly or Sean Hannity circa 2005.  If you have some sources to cite that back up your wild claims, I'd love to see them.

Wow, you really do live in a fantasy world where everyone gets along and all share the idea of world peace.
Well I have news for you, they don't!!!

It's time you learn something...

QuoteOn April 2013, envelopes sent to President Obama and a U.S. Senator tested positive for ricin, a
deadly toxin derived from castor beans. Ricin is often mentioned as a potential bioterror weapon
and has been posed a terrorist and criminal threat. For example, CBS News reported that the
Department of Homeland Security had uncovered a credible threat of attacks using poisons, such
as ricin, in salad bars and buffets,1 and unknown individuals have sent letters and packages
containing ricin to federal officials.2 This report provides general information about ricin,
identifies historical examples of its use, discusses its potential as a bioterror weapon, and
summarizes how its possession is currently regulated.

Look up Project BioShield Act (P.L. 108-276) Congressional act. If there is no threat, then why are we spending billions on the program over the next decade? A program they realize may take longer, and may not even work.
So why now, what happened recently in Syria that would lead them to believe we're at risk?
Yeah, this was just signed this year, so no, we're not protected.

Or try this link. http://cns.miis.edu/cbw/possess.htm

Or do a search on Ricin. Remember Japan 1995?

Think ISIS, Iraq/Syria.

QuoteExperts believe that terrorist use of chemical agents is an event with low probability, but
potentially high consequences. While terrorist groups may or may not have an increased interest
in chemical agent acquisition and use, the domestic vulnerability of the United States to chemical
attack remains an issue. Both the United States and Russia have signed and ratified the Chemical
Weapons Convention (CWC), and are reducing, and eventually eliminating, their chemical
weapon stockpiles.1 The possibility that terrorist groups might obtain insecure chemical weapons
led to increased scrutiny of declared Libyan chemical weapon stockpiles following the fall of the
Qadhafi regime. Experts have expressed similar concerns regarding the security of Syrian
chemical weapons, reportedly including stocks of nerve (sarin, VX) and blister (mustard gas)
agents, and their potential use. For analysis of chemical weapons possession and use in Syria, see
CRS Report R42848, Syria's Chemical Weapons: Issues for Congress, coordinated by Mary Beth
D. Nikitin

Point is, you have an awful lot to learn about human nature. Man is not a very nice animal, never was, never will be.

Quote from: jrodefeld on August 15, 2014, 09:01:07 PM
  ...But I suspect you would have us intervene a lot more beyond that.

No - I think I agree with you. I prefer to prepare for war while minding our business.
I just don't want western mentality to blind people to reality. Islam is a religion and a political philosophy that is extremely intolerant.

Quote from: jrodefeld on August 15, 2014, 09:01:07 PM
I can't speak to your experience in Iraq and Afghanistan but I maintain that it is irresponsible to paint with a broad brush and write off 1.6 billion people.  I'm not arguing that Islamic cultures are not, by and large, extremely backwards.  But clearly there are places where Muslims assimilate just fine into the cultures that surround them.  I've personally known Muslims and they certainly didn't hate me because I was not a member of their religion.  The 2.3 million Muslims that live in the United States are not plotting to establish Sharia law. 

Another extremely intolerant political and religious ideology where the Nazi in Germany. I doubt that every single Nazi was in favor of everything Germany did. Some of them could have probably chatted with you at a bar and made friends. They played with and loved their children and families. Yet - the ideology was intolerant to the point of evil.

It's the ideology, the religion that I write off.
I will reconsider when those 2.9 billion Muslims rise up and stop their leaders from:
Killing homosexuals
Treating women like trash
Beheading people that follow other religions
Burning churches, destroying Buddhist monuments ect..
Strapping bombs to their kids backs

Where do Muslims assimilate into the culture that surrounds them?
The United States might just be the closest thing. I would have agreed except that on 9/11 when the towers came down the "assimilated" Muslim community in Sunset park, Brooklyn NY where dancing in the streets throwing candy. That is where I grew up at - You can see the towers and the Manhattan sky line from there. The NYPD arrested the only radio DJ that broadcasted the Muslim celebration was going on (in sighting a riot was the charge). How do I know this, my family still live there.

Ask your Muslim friends some deep questions - you might be surprised at the answers you get.

Quote from: Novanglus on August 15, 2014, 11:04:16 PM
No - I think I agree with you. I prefer to prepare for war while minding our business.
I just don't want western mentality to blind people to reality. Islam is a religion and a political philosophy that is extremely intolerant.
Another extremely intolerant political and religious ideology where the Nazi in Germany. I doubt that every single Nazi was in favor of everything Germany did. Some of them could have probably chatted with you at a bar and made friends. They played with and loved their children and families. Yet - the ideology was intolerant to the point of evil.

It's the ideology, the religion that I write off.
I will reconsider when those 2.9 billion Muslims rise up and stop their leaders from:
Killing homosexuals
Treating women like trash
Beheading people that follow other religions
Burning churches, destroying Buddhist monuments ect..
Strapping bombs to their kids backs

Where do Muslims assimilate into the culture that surrounds them?
The United States might just be the closest thing. I would have agreed except that on 9/11 when the towers came down the "assimilated" Muslim community in Sunset park, Brooklyn NY where dancing in the streets throwing candy. That is where I grew up at - You can see the towers and the Manhattan sky line from there. The NYPD arrested the only radio DJ that broadcasted the Muslim celebration was going on (in sighting a riot was the charge). How do I know this, my family still live there.

Ask your Muslim friends some deep questions - you might be surprised at the answers you get.

I still think you are being rather close minded and intolerant.  I stated earlier that I could easily try to smear all Christians by reading every controversial passage from the Bible.  You correctly pointed out that Christians, by and large, simply reject the passages in the bible that are inconvenient.  They sort of pick and choose the parts of the religion that they like and they ignore the rest.  That might make them inconsistent as followers of a doctrinaire religious text, but they are all around decent people.  They reinterpret those controversial text in a way that is far less barbaric and more civilized. 

Many Muslims do the same.  Most people who are religious don't even understand all the teachings of their religion.  They were just born into it or they pick and choose a few aspects of that religion that provide them with some value in their lives and ignore the rest.  I'll concede that there are more radical Muslims than there are radical (in the sense of inciting and carrying out violence) Christians.  And I agree that Muslim leaders should be more outspoken in condemning acts of violence. 

We can agree to disagree on the merits of Islam as a religion, and remember that I reject all organized religions.  The most important thing is that we don't incite violence.  We shouldn't have any right to attack first or intervene in the internal affairs of other nations so long as their dysfunction remains contained to their own corner of the globe.

But I do think that using collectivist language such as "the Muslims are the enemy" and variations on that give aid to those who would have us wage a religious war with Islam.  There are strains of radical Christians who view this so called "war on terror" as a religious war of Christians vs Muslims.  This sort of language is also dehumanizing because it makes people insensitive to the deaths our government has caused of innocent people in the Muslim world.  An innocent human life is inherently valuable and should be considered of equal worth to any other human life.

Remember that if you or I had been raised in Iran, we'd probably be Muslims not through a conscious decision but through cultural osmosis and then someone else could declare us "enemies of humanity" and wage war on us.

I'm glad you seem to agree with me, and with the founding fathers, that our foreign policy should be one of non intervention.  Honest friendship and open trade with all willing nations but entangling alliances with none.

Quote from: jrodefeld on August 15, 2014, 07:44:53 PM
Okay, there are 1.6 BILLION Muslims on the planet, okay?  Why can't you understand the danger in making blanket statements condemning 23% of the worlds population? 

Personally, I am non religious.  I think all the worlds organized religions are dangerous.  But I see people as individuals, and judge them on their own merits.  The overwhelming majority of Muslims don't want to "kill all the infidels".  There are 2.6 million Muslims who live in the United States.  Why aren't they planning and carrying out acts of terrorism against the "infidels" that surround them? 

You may protest and say "oh yeah?  But the Quran says..."  Well two can play at that game.  I could just as easily condemn all Christians by quoting passages from the Old Testament.  I could say that all Christians are evil because the Bible says you should kill all homosexuals and murder disobedient children.  But that would be an erroneous argument because there are virtually no Christians who actually believe these things. 

You may be content to simply ratchet up the hostilities between the Christian west and Muslim middle east by stereotyping and ignoring our common humanity, but I am not.  Terrorism is a real problem but your views make it more likely for this extremism to spread. 

Are you incapable of empathizing with the innocent people who are killed by our drones?  The families of the women and children who starved to death as a result of our sanctions?  And the population of Iran who suffered under a brutal dictator, the Shah, who was placed in power by the United States government?  Our CIA overthrew a moderate, popularly elected leader in Mohammad Mossadegh to place a brutal tyrant in power.

Any sane person would grow to hate the foreign power who did this to you and your family.  By saying "they're all just crazy and they hate us for our freedom" you are compounding the problem by ignoring these very real and legitimate grievances.  Like I said before, this doesn't excuse the murder of innocent people but it is easy to see how otherwise reasonable people would be compelled to lash out in any way they could.  Otherwise moderate people grow to emotionally support radical Islam and terrorist efforts.

This has all been extensively documented and researched by experts in the field like the aforementioned Michael Scheuer and Robert Pape.

It is clear you see the world as you would like it, not as it is. If what you say is true, please share with us all these "moderate" Muslims who are outraged over what ISIS and other terrorist groups are doing.

Quote from: Novanglus on August 15, 2014, 11:04:16 PM

I just don't want western mentality to blind people to reality. Islam is a religion and a political philosophy that is extremely intolerant.

That says it all, it's the mental block many have, mostly because they've never left the sanctuary of the U.S., and two, too young to have a historical reference to grasp the concept evil does exist.
They just lead a too PC and protected life here.

You just as well give it up N, he has no interest in the truth, simply because he can't grasp a context he's never experienced.
Your point is succinct, he's led a protected and blinded life here.

Quote from: jrodefeld on August 16, 2014, 02:35:13 AM
Remember that if you or I had been raised in Iran, we'd probably be Muslims not through a conscious decision but through cultural osmosis and then someone else could declare us "enemies of humanity" and wage war on us.

True, but I think we would be Muslim because if not, we would stand a good chance of being killed.

Let me appeal to your intellectual side.

I used to have the same view as you; I believed that "everyone wants to be free." That everyone wants to live in peace. That we could live in peace side by side with Muslims. Then I went to Iraq, and talked with the Iraqis that I worked with over many months.

I realized that they can not live as equals in peace with people of other religions because they can not separate their religion from their politics. They are one and the same - even Sunni and Shia can't live together in peace as equals. One must dominate the other because the government is the religion / the religion is the government - therefore the government (and it's power) must be Sunni or Shia, and can not be both - as that would be an abomination to either religion (and only one can be god's true will).

This is why Muslims in Chechnya, the Filipines, Serbia, China ..... all over, fight for independent Muslim states (once the Muslim population reaches a critical mass in those places)

Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism are religions, separate from the government. Islam is a political system and a religion, the idea of separating the 2 is inconceivable, illogical and alien to Muslims.