Read the article and tell me if he said that. I really don't believe he did. If he did, it reveals a profound lack of understanding of the Scriptures.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-atheists-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

BTW, the Scriptures nowhere promise heaven as the reward of the saved. Christ will prepare the EARTH during His reign on earth for the Father who will reside with the immortals on EARTH (those given the gift of Eternal Life)

BUT.... did he say what the headlines attribute to him? What sayest thou?

Quote from: Yawn on September 12, 2013, 04:01:36 PM
Read the article and tell me if he said that. I really don't believe he did. If he did, it reveals a profound lack of understanding of the Scriptures.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-atheists-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

BTW, the Scriptures nowhere promise heaven as the reward of the saved. Christ will prepare the EARTH during His reign on earth for the Father who will reside with the immortals on EARTH (those given the gift of Eternal Life)

BUT.... did he say what the headlines attribute to him? What sayest thou?

The idea that good people with wrong beliefs are going to be tortured forever is just about one of the worst beliefs I have ever heard.  How could a good God do such a thing?  I welcome the Popes change of heart.

No, I think the author and the commentator are taking liberties. 

Quote"You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don't believe and who don't seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God's mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

"Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience."

according to MW dictionary "1. the part of the mind that makes you aware of your actions as being either morally right or wrong.  2.  a feeling that something you have done is morally wrong"

No person can follow their conscience enough to make them appear "good".  If you could Jesus death would be meaningless.

And yes, people will be cast into hell.  Why would God force people to be with Him and worship Him who have chosen their whole life to disdain and avoid him?  That would not be good.  Elections, including your election to believe or not, have consequences.

Quote from: JustKari on September 13, 2013, 05:07:09 PM
No, I think the author and the commentator are taking liberties. 

according to MW dictionary "1. the part of the mind that makes you aware of your actions as being either morally right or wrong.  2.  a feeling that something you have done is morally wrong"

No person can follow their conscience enough to make them appear "good".  If you could Jesus death would be meaningless.

And yes, people will be cast into hell.  Why would God force people to be with Him and worship Him who have chosen their whole life to disdain and avoid him?  That would not be good.  Elections, including your election to believe or not, have consequences.

I sometimes wonder about that.  What is good?  How good do you really have to be to really good?  Do you have to be perfect, or do you just have to be more good than bad?  Honestly I find that most people don't do really bad things to each other, and tend to be polite to each other, so I tend to think that most people are generally good and don't deserve to be tortured forever.  The only people who deserves eternal torment are the ones who are evil and are just horrible.

Yeah, that's what I thought too. I didn't read what the headlines are saying. I also didn't get what the pro-homo "community" read into his earlier statements (though I disagree with them).  He doesn't seem as morally "liberal" as they want to make him out to be -- I think.

Quote from: JustKari on September 13, 2013, 05:07:09 PM
No, I think the author and the commentator are taking liberties. 

according to MW dictionary "1. the part of the mind that makes you aware of your actions as being either morally right or wrong.  2.  a feeling that something you have done is morally wrong"

No person can follow their conscience enough to make them appear "good".  If you could Jesus death would be meaningless.

And yes, people will be cast into hell.  Why would God force people to be with Him and worship Him who have chosen their whole life to disdain and avoid him?  That would not be good.  Elections, including your election to believe or not, have consequences.

Part of the issue is making "go to heaven" the end-goal.  Then it becomes, "what is the bare minimum to go to heaven?"  That's a far cry from what Jesus taught and exemplified.

I have to agree with the Pope. Good people are those who have pure soul in which God lives. We can't know if someone is good or bad, but our Creator knows. Believers are just more likely to earn Salvation than non-believers, but not all believers will be saved, nor all non-believers won't be saved.

I would also like to quote the Matthew 21:28-31.

Quote28 "What do you think? A man had two sons. And he went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work in the vineyard today.' 29 And he answered, 'I will not,' but afterward he changed his mind and went. 30 And he went to the other son and said the same. And he answered, 'I go, sir,' but did not go. 31 Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you.

So, it does not count when we declare as believers, but it does count when we behave as believers.

THIS exemplifies the decietfullness of the human mind. We tell ourselves we are "good" and that God would never deny good people the reward of the saved. I'm not sure the author/editor chose that deceitful headline to deliberately mislead, or he/she was hearing what they wanted to hear.  Kari is right. If we can save ourselves by our own "goodness" (as we judge goodness), then Christ suffered/died in vain.

No, the writer is deceived and deceives others by hearing what they want to hear.  The prophet Jeremiah lamented, "The heart is deceitful above all things, desperately wicked. Who can know it?

Yeshua (Jesus) warned: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day"

And, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day"

And, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

And . . . "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you."

Quote from: milos on September 15, 2013, 01:56:41 PM
I have to agree with the Pope. Good people are those who have pure soul in which God lives. We can't know if someone is good or bad, but our Creator knows. Believers are just more likely to earn Salvation than non-believers, but not all believers will be saved, nor all non-believers won't be saved.

I would also like to quote the Matthew 21:28-31.

So, it does not count when we declare as believers, but it does count when we behave as believers.

This has been standard Catholic doctrine for quite a long time.. he's not saying anything controversial. 

Quote from: JustKari on September 13, 2013, 05:07:09 PM
No, I think the author and the commentator are taking liberties. 

according to MW dictionary "1. the part of the mind that makes you aware of your actions as being either morally right or wrong.  2.  a feeling that something you have done is morally wrong"

No person can follow their conscience enough to make them appear "good".  If you could Jesus death would be meaningless.

And yes, people will be cast into hell.  Why would God force people to be with Him and worship Him who have chosen their whole life to disdain and avoid him?  That would not be good.  Elections, including your election to believe or not, have consequences.

So basically, its good for certain people to exist in Hell.  Going to Hell is better for them than going to heaven?

If it feels good or not that you have to believe in God is inconsequential, it really astounds me that so many judges faith on their own emotion of if it feels good, or if God is a liberal or not. I.e the whole "how can you belive in a God that allows evil or let good people go to hell?!?!". I know God exists because of the scientific foundation of intelligent design, and I believe in the Bible because I have a personal relationship with God.

It is certainly better for certain people to go to hell, and hell is what they deserve. The only thing that matters is walking the path and like Milos stated God knows you, and he knows you better than you do.

Here it is, God is reality. The extent to which you identify with reality is the measure of your own reality. The indwelling Spirit of God that resides in your higher consciousness is what people call your "conscience". If you follow His leading, if your actions are initiated by His intrinsic love, then you may be becoming real. You may exist without the "Word of God" as extolled in the "Good News"(Gospel) but in your ignorance follow the leading of the inner voice. Perhaps someone lied to you about the Son, or kept you from hearing the truth; only God will be your judge, Christ Himself said as much. If you consciously reject all  conceivable understanding or acceptance of belief, then perhaps you are making your own freewill choice in the matter. One thing is absolutely true, you are incapable of creating by works your own salvation, it is by Faith alone, and only by the Grace of God(a freely given gift) that we are saved. As to hell, I believe that if you reject the call to become real, then you become unreal, and that which is unreal will cease to be when the physical shroud is set aside. In other words, if God doesn't bring you by Grace into his presence, because you chose to survive, then you won't.

Quote from: laelan51 on October 11, 2013, 01:19:25 PM
Here it is, God is reality. The extent to which you identify with reality is the measure of your own reality. The indwelling Spirit of God that resides in your higher consciousness is what people call your "conscience". If you follow His leading, if your actions are initiated by His intrinsic love, then you may be becoming real. You may exist without the "Word of God" as extolled in the "Good News"(Gospel) but in your ignorance follow the leading of the inner voice. Perhaps someone lied to you about the Son, or kept you from hearing the truth; only God will be your judge, Christ Himself said as much. If you consciously reject all  conceivable understanding or acceptance of belief, then perhaps you are making your own freewill choice in the matter. One thing is absolutely true, you are incapable of creating by works your own salvation, it is by Faith alone, and only by the Grace of God(a freely given gift) that we are saved. As to hell, I believe that if you reject the call to become real, then you become unreal, and that which is unreal will cease to be when the physical shroud is set aside. In other words, if God doesn't bring you by Grace into his presence, because you chose to survive, then you won't.

How does evil correspond to reality as you describe?  Is it part of reality?  Is it "not real"?

Evil is the doing of that which is not the will of God, sin is the conscious doing of that which is not in the will of God, iniquity is the habitual following of the way that leads away from the will of God. What is the will of God?, Scripture gives us clues but the direct soft still voice of the Father who dwells within the Temple that is your higher consciousness is a light to your reason. Following it is the exercise.

Another way to think of it is this; you are given "life", "unique personality", and "intelligence", direct gifts derived from the Father. Your "soul" is an artifact of which you are responsible for it's assembly. It consists of all your acts which reflect the will of God, or those motivated by Love, which is the manifestation of the Lord in the lives of His children here in the shadow world(the shadow of the true Spiritual Reality). Those acts which fall short of, that don't come from the will, the Love of God manifested through your choices here, make no contribution to the growing reality of your soul. When the shroud of physical life is cast off , your soul and the spiritual part of the Father that indwelt the temple of your mind are the only real things which are of the Father, and thus capable of inhabiting the Spiritual reality that casts the shadow in which we the living dwell.