Quote from: Shooterman on March 18, 2013, 07:06:18 PM
Does this not condemn property for the use and benefit of a corporation that can sell that oil on the world market?

Have you forgotten we're a Capitalist economy?

Quote from: Solar on March 18, 2013, 07:14:44 PM
Have you forgotten we're a Capitalist economy?

Which has nothing to do with it. This is basically just like Kelo- property condemned and given to a 'business' to make money and increase the tax base.

Quote from: Shooterman on March 18, 2013, 07:36:08 PM
Which has nothing to do with it. This is basically just like Kelo- property condemned and given to a 'business' to make money and increase the tax base.

NO! It's not, look up ROWs, they were originally designed for water, energy, communication and transportation.
Energy is the life blood of our Capitalist society.
Are you denying that?

Would you rather it continue by rail to the East coast refineries lining Soros pocket? That's right, Soros is making a killing on the Canadian oil that isn't flowing through the XL, or would you rather it wound up in Texas?

Careful my friend, that fence you're perched upon is starting to tilt a bit to the left.

I had to look up Kelo. Shooter's right, there are similarities, but the differences are huge.

There's a lot more to it than raising the tax base. We are still held hostage by OPEC.

There is more oil and natural gas in North America than in anyplace else in the world, and we don't have the infrastructure to deal with processing and transporting it. Our country is spiraling toward insolvency, we've got a president that doesn't want to exploit our newly discovered natural resources, and we've got private interests, along with the Canadians, that are willing to foot the bill to get those things in place. The pipeline alone will lower gasoline prices.

In addition, the entire middle east is a ticking time bomb. North America has the resources to completely cut the umbilical cord to outside energy sources, and the private/corporate funding to get it done. As our little boy president continues to shovel money into "green" failures, if we don't allow the development of our vast fossil fuel reserves, our entire country will fail. We should not be at the mercy of OPEC, and we have the means to change it. Time to get started.

Quote from: willowtree on March 18, 2013, 04:08:16 PM
Agreed. We need to become independent of Arab oil. If any property owners are displaced they will be paid for their land.


Will we be required to fill in the image and south eastern state questions with each post we make? Or, does that go away after awhile?d

Greetings Willow, nice to have you here.  I had a few "kinks" when I first arrived but them seemed to work themselves out like Solar mentioned.

Quote from: Solar on March 18, 2013, 08:10:52 PM
NO! It's not, look up ROWs, they were originally designed for water, energy, communication and transportation.
Energy is the life blood of our Capitalist society.
Are you denying that?

Would you rather it continue by rail to the East coast refineries lining Soros pocket? That's right, Soros is making a killing on the Canadian oil that isn't flowing through the XL, or would you rather it wound up in Texas?

Pay attention, Solar. I have stated I am all for the pipeline. I also am very much aware of the promise the oil will bring. The fact can not be denied that is that peoples property rights are being run roughshod over to benefit a private concern. Government, in its capacity of power, is deciding another winner and loser.

QuoteCareful my friend, that fence you're perched upon is starting to tilt a bit to the left.

With that, you can go fokk yourself.

Quote from: kramarat on March 19, 2013, 03:05:21 AM
I had to look up Kelo. Shooter's right, there are similarities, but the differences are huge.

There's a lot more to it than raising the tax base. We are still held hostage by OPEC.

There is more oil and natural gas in North America than in anyplace else in the world, and we don't have the infrastructure to deal with processing and transporting it. Our country is spiraling toward insolvency, we've got a president that doesn't want to exploit our newly discovered natural resources, and we've got private interests, along with the Canadians, that are willing to foot the bill to get those things in place. The pipeline alone will lower gasoline prices.

In addition, the entire middle east is a ticking time bomb. North America has the resources to completely cut the umbilical cord to outside energy sources, and the private/corporate funding to get it done. As our little boy president continues to shovel money into "green" failures, if we don't allow the development of our vast fossil fuel reserves, our entire country will fail. We should not be at the mercy of OPEC, and we have the means to change it. Time to get started.

Kelo has been gutted.
That's why 43 states passed constitutional amendments or statutes that reformed eminent domain law to better protect private property rights.
People recognized it for what it was, an intrusion by the Federal Govt to steal more land to benefit the coffers of Govt.

Quote from: Solar on March 19, 2013, 05:45:13 AM
Kelo has been gutted.
That's why 43 states passed constitutional amendments or statutes that reformed eminent domain law to better protect private property rights.
People recognized it for what it was, an intrusion by the Federal Govt to steal more land to benefit the coffers of Govt.

I still maintain that as long as government is able to tax our private property forever, and take it away from us if we don't pay, nobody owns anything. All of us are essentially leasing our property from the government, and property taxes are our lease payments. But that's a different subject.

Personally, I think the public/national benefit of having oil flowing in the US, justifies the use of eminent domain. But the people must be fairly compensated.

Quote from: kramarat on March 19, 2013, 06:07:00 AM
I still maintain that as long as government is able to tax our private property forever, and take it away from us if we don't pay, nobody owns anything. All of us are essentially leasing our property from the government, and property taxes are our lease payments. But that's a different subject.

Personally, I think the public/national benefit of having oil flowing in the US, justifies the use of eminent domain. But the people must be fairly compensated.

And that's why all those states gutted Kelo, the people were pissed at SCOTUS for such an asinine decision.

Quote from: kramarat on March 19, 2013, 06:07:00 AM
I still maintain that as long as government is able to tax our private property forever, and take it away from us if we don't pay, nobody owns anything. All of us are essentially leasing our property from the government, and property taxes are our lease payments. But that's a different subject.

You are quite correct. We all rent from some government, local, then state, then Unk Sugar ultimately.

QuotePersonally, I think the public/national benefit of having oil flowing in the US, justifies the use of eminent domain. But the people must be fairly compensated.

I may even, in the abstract, agree with you, but what is the next big thing that will 'justify' the stealing of property? What happens when that 'Big Thing' cracks one of us personally in the ass? Will we be as tolerant of eminent domain?

Quote from: Shooterman on March 19, 2013, 06:57:39 AM
You are quite correct. We all rent from some government, local, then state, then Unk Sugar ultimately.

I may even, in the abstract, agree with you, but what is the next big thing that will 'justify' the stealing of property? What happens when that 'Big Thing' cracks one of us personally in the ass? Will we be as tolerant of eminent domain?

I understand your point, but as a country, we are all headed for complete disaster. I see the energy sector as our only way to avoid it. Even with the stupidity out of Washington, energy is the only way we're going to be able to hold our heads above water. By developing petroleum and natural gas, we will at least be able to support a manufacturing base. It's a lot more than just the jobs that will be created to build the pipeline.

Green energy has been a complete failure; if we don't develop our other sources, as well as teaming up with Canada, all of us are going to pay a steep price for not doing it. All of that fuel under the ground equals jobs and money into the foreseeable future, as well as independence from the Arabs. If we let private property rights trump energy production, we're all going to be screwed.

It would suck to lose my place, but if they paid me enough to move and get reestablished, and didn't cause me any hardship because of it, I'd be okay with it. If they are going to use eminent domain, (especially here, with the billions that stand to be made), they've got to pay the property owners enough that they're not getting the shaft. Aside from the fact that they have to move, they should get enough money to move into a comparable place, and have enough left over to get reestablished.

Quote from: kramarat on March 19, 2013, 08:13:00 AM
I understand your point, but as a country, we are all headed for complete disaster. I see the energy sector as our only way to avoid it. Even with the stupidity out of Washington, energy is the only way we're going to be able to hold our heads above water. By developing petroleum and natural gas, we will at least be able to support a manufacturing base. It's a lot more than just the jobs that will be created to build the pipeline.

Green energy has been a complete failure; if we don't develop our other sources, as well as teaming up with Canada, all of us are going to pay a steep price for not doing it. All of that fuel under the ground equals jobs and money into the foreseeable future, as well as independence from the Arabs. If we let private property rights trump energy production, we're all going to be screwed.

Still somewhat of a straw man argument. We have as much if not more oil in West Texas and in Bakken, as there is in Canada.

QuoteIt would suck to lose my place, but if they paid me enough to move and get reestablished, and didn't cause me any hardship because of it, I'd be okay with it. If they are going to use eminent domain, (especially here, with the billions that stand to be made), they've got to pay the property owners enough that they're not getting the shaft. Aside from the fact that they have to move, they should get enough money to move into a comparable place, and have enough left over to get reestablished.

My friend, you have put stipulations on you being well compensated, ( compensation is usually 'fair market value' ) which, of course is your prerogative. My point is everyone has their own level of tolerance and intolerance, and if someone doesn't wish to give up a piece of property for any reason, who are we to force them to do so? Especially when it will support an commercial business.

We are walking a slippery slope.

Quote from: Shooterman on March 19, 2013, 08:42:59 AM
Still somewhat of a straw man argument. We have as much if not more oil in West Texas and in Bakken, as there is in Canada.

My friend, you have put stipulations on you being well compensated, ( compensation is usually 'fair market value' ) which, of course is your prerogative. My point is everyone has their own level of tolerance and intolerance, and if someone doesn't wish to give up a piece of property for any reason, who are we to force them to do so? Especially when it will support an commercial business.

We are walking a slippery slope.

The Bakken oil will likely be traveling through the same pipeline. We are making a mountain out a mole hill here; the southern route has already been approved, we're talking easements, (not taking homes), and only 19 people are holding out, (on the southern route). I'd take take the deal; the landowners still get to use the land after the pipeline is done, and they don't have to pay taxes on it. BTW- None of the deals that were made on the southern route, involved eminent domain use.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-03-08/ranchers-tell-keystone-not-under-my-backyard

Because that way we can get the oil we need from the Middle East where all our friends are.  Obama won't let us drill and doesn't want oil from Canada so what is left.