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There is approximately 1600 trillion dollars in financial products pyramided on top of 2-4 trillion in physical gold.
What else do you need to know?
I've heard anywhere from a billion in physical gold to 3 trillion.
Regardless, you're right, it's all FIAT.
This charade can't continue much longer, and the longer we delay the inevitable, the worse the crash.
Quote from: Solar on December 25, 2013, 02:36:26 PM
I've heard anywhere from a billion in physical gold to 3 trillion.
Regardless, you're right, it's all FIAT.
This charade can't continue much longer, and the longer we delay the inevitable, the worse the crash.
So the question remains, is there gold in fort knox or not? If so is there more then an ounce?
Quote from: walkstall on December 25, 2013, 02:44:41 PM
So the question remains, is there gold in fort knox or not? If so is there more then an ounce?
Is it even real gold?
Quote from: Solar on December 25, 2013, 02:49:54 PM
Is it even real gold?
Fools gold is very cheap replacement. :tounge:
Quote from: walkstall on December 25, 2013, 03:29:56 PM
Fools gold is very cheap replacement. :tounge:
Gold painted lead is even cheaper....
Quote from: Solar on December 25, 2013, 03:34:24 PM
Gold painted lead is even cheaper....
We need lead for bullets! :popcorn:
If the dollar collapses to the level being contemplated here then you are better off with dry goods and bullets.
Quote from: Dan on December 25, 2013, 04:36:20 PM
If the dollar collapses to the level being contemplated here then you are better off with dry goods and bullets.
Agree, you can't eat gold...
If the dollar collapses and is replaced with the Amero, (say at 2-1) then gold is very important to have. Not for food. But for wealth preservation when deposits/ pensions get confiscated.
Quote from: TowardLiberty on December 26, 2013, 07:21:31 AM
If the dollar collapses and is replaced with the Amero, (say at 2-1) then gold is very important to have. Not for food. But for wealth preservation when deposits/ pensions get confiscated.
I've heard that, but highly doubt it, because the Amero has to come before the crash, after the fact, no one will gravitate towards another fiat dollar, instead look to stable currencies, or as you say, gold.
But holding gold would be for the long term outlook after things stabilize.
It's the first year after collapse that will be the toughest on everyone and neither gold or bit coin is going to feed the family.
Quote from: Solar on December 26, 2013, 07:28:46 AM
I've heard that, but highly doubt it, because the Amero has to come before the crash, after the fact, no one will gravitate towards another fiat dollar, instead look to stable currencies, or as you say, gold.
But holding gold would be for the long term outlook after things stabilize.
It's the first year after collapse that will be the toughest on everyone and neither gold or bit coin is going to feed the family.
I dont know if it has to happen before....
It is not a matter of people gravitating to it. The way this works is one day your account balance says 1000 dollars, tomorrow it might say 500 Amero.
Just like when FDR confiscated privately held gold. One day people woke up to find they have 1000 dollars of paper when they thought they had gold.
It really wouldn't be logical to do the switch prior to a crisis, for the crisis then would emerge under the new currency. Far better to have the crisis play out under the old money, and then transition to a new money after the haircut and in this fashion the redistribution of wealth can be sold as necessary for a "clean start."
Now I don't argue that one should only be concerned with buying gold. Certainly food, water filtration/ storage, guns/ ammo, and so on are necessary. I am simply speaking about how one should store their money.
Quote from: TowardLiberty on December 26, 2013, 07:36:58 AM
I dont know if it has to happen before....
It is not a matter of people gravitating to it. The way this works is one day your account balance says 1000 dollars, tomorrow it might say 500 Amero.
Just like when FDR confiscated privately held gold. One day people woke up to find they have 1000 dollars of paper when they thought they had gold.
It really wouldn't be logical to do the switch prior to a crisis, for the crisis then would emerge under the new currency. Far better to have the crisis play out under the old money, and then transition to a new money after the haircut and in this fashion the redistribution of wealth can be sold as necessary for a "clean start."
Now I don't argue that one should only be concerned with buying gold. Certainly food, water filtration/ storage, guns/ ammo, and so on are necessary. I am simply speaking about how one should store their money.
I see what you mean and it makes total sense.
But which also begs the question, can they pull it off during revolution? I jest,....kind of.
Quote from: Solar on December 26, 2013, 07:44:52 AM
I see what you mean and it makes total sense.
But which also begs the question, can they pull it off during revolution? I jest,....kind of.
I'd love to test that and see!
But I think everyone is a little too used to living high on the hog...
Well not everyone, but just about.
Quote from: TowardLiberty on December 26, 2013, 07:21:31 AM
If the dollar collapses and is replaced with the Amero, (say at 2-1) then gold is very important to have. Not for food. But for wealth preservation when deposits/ pensions get confiscated.
If the dollar collapses then wealth preservation is going to be a popcorn fart in the wind. If we go under then the global economy craters and governments cease to function in any way we would recognize today. Basically we are talking about the breakdown of civil society. When that happens you will need food to eat and bullets to shoot the f-ers who try to take what you have.
Quote from: Dan on December 26, 2013, 03:39:45 PM
If the dollar collapses then wealth preservation is going to be a popcorn fart in the wind. If we go under then the global economy craters and governments cease to function in any way we would recognize today. Basically we are talking about the breakdown of civil society. When that happens you will need food to eat and bullets to shoot the f-ers who try to take what you have.
For a time.
But civilization and the division of labor comes back in short order.
And those who have gold can preserve their wealth in such a fashion.
Quote from: TowardLiberty on December 26, 2013, 03:41:58 PM
For a time.
But civilization and the division of labor comes back in short order.
And those who have gold can preserve their wealth in such a fashion.
If I have food and you have gold, then I can trade you a comparatively small amount of food for your gold when you are hungry.
If I have more guns and ammo than you then I can take your gold.
The markets will not be efficient or rational or even remotely predictable for a very long time. I think you are trying to over plan for a situation that will be little more than chaos. Just my opinion.
Quote from: Dan on December 26, 2013, 03:46:02 PM
If I have food and you have gold, then I can trade you a comparatively small amount of food for your gold when you are hungry.
If I have more guns and ammo than you then I can take your gold.
The markets will not be efficient or rational or even remotely predictable for a very long time. I think you are trying to over plan for a situation that will be little more than chaos. Just my opinion.
And if I have gold, guns and food, then I will be better off than if I just have guns and food.
There have been many instances of hyperinflation, currency collapse, and changes in various monetary regimes. Civilization plunges ahead.
The world keeps on spinning.
But the distribution of wealth changes.
Gold is a way to hedge that risk.
Quote from: TowardLiberty on December 26, 2013, 04:00:36 PM
And if I have gold, guns and food, then I will be better off than if I just have guns and food.
There have been many instances of hyperinflation, currency collapse, and changes in various monetary regimes. Civilization plunges ahead.
The world keeps on spinning.
But the distribution of wealth changes.
Gold is a way to hedge that risk.
And if I had ten million dollars and was hung like a horse then dating would be a lot simpler. Lol!
If we are having a discussion about finite resources then sometimes you have to make a choice other than what it would be like if you have everything you imagined you might need. Sometimes it's an either or discussion and that's when I say guns and food first.
Quote from: Dan on December 26, 2013, 04:40:35 PM
And if I had ten million dollars and was hung like a horse then dating would be a lot simpler. Lol!
If we are having a discussion about finite resources then sometimes you have to make a choice other than what it would be like if you have everything you imagined you might need. Sometimes it's an either or discussion and that's when I say guns and food first.
Sure, there are trade offs. But some people have more assets than they care to store in guns and food.
For them, gold is a way to protect their wealth.
I dont know why this is controversial. It is all rather straight forward.
There is a diminishing marginal utility to everything, includes and guns and food.
Quote from: TowardLiberty on December 27, 2013, 08:09:06 AM
Sure, there are trade offs. But some people have more assets than they care to store in guns and food.
For them, gold is a way to protect their wealth.
I dont know why this is controversial. It is all rather straight forward.
There is a diminishing marginal utility to everything, includes and guns and food.
Gold is still down on the list. You would be better off spending your financial resources on land in a remote location, basic defensible shelter and a reliable water source than buying little strips of shiny metal that may eventually be worth something once things get back to normal. Lol! Heck, a good dog and some chickens would be more helpful than gold once the shit truly hits the fan.
I think the problem here is that you are having trouble imagining a world where the wheels truly fall off the wagon. Just sayin. :wink:
Quote from: Dan on December 27, 2013, 05:44:15 PM
Gold is still down on the list. You would be better off spending your financial resources on land in a remote location, basic defensible shelter and a reliable water source than buying little strips of shiny metal that may eventually be worth something once things get back to normal. Lol! Heck, a good dog and some chickens would be more helpful than gold once the shit truly hits the fan.
I think the problem here is that you are having trouble imagining a world where the wheels truly fall off the wagon. Just sayin. :wink:
Yep, stocking up on essentials, more than you'd ever need, can be bartered for shiny pieces of metal if one prefers, or whatever suits your fancy.
But ladies feminine products would raise a pretty penny from the men, nothing worse than an unhappy woman in the house.
Fuel, nuts and bolts in assorted sizes, hand tools, solar panels, etc, all worth more than their weight in gold to the man that needs them.
I've prepared, not that I expect all Hell to break loose, like insurance, I never expect an accident either, but it's there if I need it, and I have a good 3 years of insurance in food and ammo, endless water supply, propane, one year of diesel and of course, completely off the grid.
Yep, if you really want to prepare for the end of civilization then do the following.
Buy some acreage out in the country. Remote, limited road access, very few neighbors.
Have a secure water source (most likely a well with a solar powered pump or a hand pump).
Have comfortable home that uses as little energy as possible. Solar panels with a good battery setup to take care of your electricity needs.
Run a big garden. Know how to hunt and fish and process your own meat. Butchering, smoking, etc.
Have small scale livestock like chickens and maybe a few goats.
Plenty of ammo and a good collection of guns for hunting a self protection.
MREs and freeze dried foods are fine but expensive. Lots of rice and beans gets you to the same point for a hell of a lot less money.
Basic first aid kit. You can supplement things like antibiotics with fish medicines. No joke.
If you have the room, books and games, toiletries, extra clothes, extra spare parts for the machines you rely upon.
Probably a ton of stuff I am leaving out, but everything on this list and more is stuff you should get right before you start hoarding gold.
Before you hoard gold, add some basic skills. Canning, hunting, gardening, basic care of simple livestock, ham radio operation, reloading your own ammo, archery, basic mechanics, basic first aid, some form of martial arts, marksmanship or gun repair. If you have crazy money then buy more land and keep a few horses and cattle. Maybe keep separate stores of food and weapons stored all over your property.
Quote from: Dan on December 27, 2013, 05:44:15 PM
Gold is still down on the list. You would be better off spending your financial resources on land in a remote location, basic defensible shelter and a reliable water source than buying little strips of shiny metal that may eventually be worth something once things get back to normal. Lol! Heck, a good dog and some chickens would be more helpful than gold once the shit truly hits the fan.
I think the problem here is that you are having trouble imagining a world where the wheels truly fall off the wagon. Just sayin. :wink:
I think this is a problem of communication.
First off, having land is a great idea. Indeed I have money set aside to buy some next year.
But that is out of FRN's, not my gold stores.
I have no problem imaging the wheels falling off, but if you have an eye toward history, you will they stay off for a very short time. And civilization, society, exchange and the division of labor quickly remerge.
In that situation, not owning gold is tragic.
If we back up off the cliff, and include more likely scenarios along with our "worst case scenario," the argument FOR gold is clear.
What if you heavily discount the chance that civilization will end?
A more likely scenario is people working for food, shelter and protection.
If you think things will be semi normal in a couple of years then local currencies will sprout up and at best the market for gold will be highly inefficient.
Quote from: Dan on December 28, 2013, 03:19:04 PM
A more likely scenario is people working for food, shelter and protection.
If you think things will be semi normal in a couple of years then local currencies will sprout up and at best the market for gold will be highly inefficient.
People will always be working for food, shelter, protection and goods.
I think there will be a nominally gold backed Yuan to replace the petrodollar. I believe the Chinese will engage in the same exporting of inflation that the Brits did under the sterling exchange standard, and how the Americans did under the dollar exchange standard.
There will be a global market for gold, just as there is now.
Lol! The yuan will never be an international reserve currency. Their banking sector is an absolute mess. China is far more of a house of cards than most people seem to realize. :wink:
Quote from: Dan on December 30, 2013, 07:03:54 AM
Lol! The yuan will never be an international reserve currency. Their banking sector is an absolute mess. China is far more of a house of cards than most people seem to realize. :wink:
Well perhaps it won't be the Yuan, but rather an Asian Currency Unit. Or it could be those pesky SDR's.
One thing we do know is whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Quote from: TowardLiberty on December 30, 2013, 04:32:03 PM
Well perhaps it won't be the Yuan, but rather an Asian Currency Unit. Or it could be those pesky SDR's.
One thing we do know is whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
As jacked up as the US monetary system has become, there are no better options out there. The Yuan is a house of cards. The Yen has been a sick man for 20 years now. The Euro is on shaky ground due to the way Europeans have coupled their banks to their states. The swiss franc is way to small. All the petro economies are too dependent upon oil prices and the relative health of their export partners (US, China and Europe).
The only thing holding the bubble together now is inertia and a lack of better options. And the really scary thing is that almost everyone is too complacent and obtuse to understand they should be scared.
Quote from: Dan on December 31, 2013, 02:41:36 AM
As jacked up as the US monetary system has become, there are no better options out there. The Yuan is a house of cards. The Yen has been a sick man for 20 years now. The Euro is on shaky ground due to the way Europeans have coupled their banks to their states. The swiss franc is way to small. All the petro economies are too dependent upon oil prices and the relative health of their export partners (US, China and Europe).
The only thing holding the bubble together now is inertia and a lack of better options. And the really scary thing is that almost everyone is too complacent and obtuse to understand they should be scared.
Iran and Turkey have proven that that a gold based petro currency could work. So the idea is that perhaps this is why Russia, India and China are importing so much gold.
Quote from: TowardLiberty on January 02, 2014, 07:19:05 AM
Iran and Turkey have proven that that a gold based petro currency could work. So the idea is that perhaps this is why Russia, India and China are importing so much gold.
Iran's economy is in the toilett and Turkey is living off of low wage manufacturing jobs. It's not a petro economy.
Russia's government will bankrupt if we ever repeal the law that prevents us from exporting natural gas. We could flood the European markets, drop the bottom out of the prices in the european market and utterly screw the russian economy.