I'm really interested in finance and politics so I'd like to discuss with you whether a minimum wage in jobs makes sense. In news I read about pros and cons so I'm a bit confused now: Is a minimum wage OK and should it be introduced by Germany (leading party plans to do so)?
sources: WSJ (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204528204577010052983719314.html) | thestreet.com
(http://www.thestreet.com/author/1216921/fisher-investments/all.html)
I say no. The market sets a price for labor based upon the value that labor creates. All the government can do is distort a market by taking economic value out of the decision making process and replacing it with a political objective instead. This leads to a more inefficient market and this leads to a smaller pie for everyone. At the end of the day a minimum wage makes some people unemployable. Ditto for other populist legislation meant to stick it to the man.
Think about it. If someone isn't willing to pay you $7 per hour for your time then maybe you need to look in the mirror and stop blaming other people. Too many people fall into the intellectual trap of defining this issue by what they feel they are owed and not what they have to offer. If someone needs to be coerced by the government to pay you $7 per hour then maybe you should have studied harder, stayed in school, stayed off drugs or not gotten 39 tatoos. Just a thought.
I have hired a lot of people over the years and I can say without a doubt that 25-30% of the population really doesn't want to work. Yes they have to work. Yes they will apply for a job. But they will put in minimal effort and be unreliable on things like attendance. Is it my fault if I cannot justify keeping these people on the job at a level of pay they desire or is it their fault for not investing in themselves and not having the personal pride to do their job well?
The only sustainable way to increase standards of living is to increase the economic value of the labor of our citizens.
That doesn't mean we let them run up 100K in student loans they will not pay back to get a sociology degree that will earn them 25K per year. That means limiting financial aid to preparation for job fields that will drive our economy in the 21st century. More engineers and nurses and computer programmers and math majors. Fewer art history, sociology and gender studies majors. It means more people going into well paying trades. I know plumbers who make more than MBAs. If my tax dollars are going to subsidize an education then I would rather add another diesel mechanic instead of another lawyer. Get the point.
This is not, however, just a matter of public subsidies. We cannot tax and spend our way into some secular progressive nirvana no matter how much the lefties wish it were so. Everything I have described will be less useful if we do not get more parents taking responsiblity for their children and more children taking responsiblity for their own educations. It can't always be someone else's fault or the fault of ADD or whatever. Without a huge dose of personal responsiblity we are going to have more of the same. A lot of fat, stupid, economically useless adult kids who live at home and feel great about themselves and whine and moan and bitch about how everyone else has screwed them over.
I agree Dan, Unions love the Min wage BS, it gives them the leverage to force wage hikes on employers.
Government has no business dictating what two people agree upon as a fair trade for labor.
By the way, welcome to the forum debate guy, from here forward to be known as DG. 8-)
The unions had a useful purpose 100 years ago, but now they are nothing more than parisites who all too often kill their hosts. The steel industry. The auto industry. Etc.
Well said Dan and Solar!
Quote from: walkstall on November 02, 2011, 05:54:45 PM
Well said Dan and Solar!
Every time the Dims pass a min wage increase, we beat this topic to death, so much so the facts are burned into memory.
What libs don't seem to realize, is every time the idiots raise the base wage, the min wage employee winds up paying more for everything, in turn, its actually a pay cut in reality.
The small business winds up having to raise the price of everything just a bit to cover the increased cost across the board.
This topic really gets me pissed off, to the point I want to go to Congress and literally physically pound statistics into their empty fuckin skulls! AAAARRRGGGHHHHH!!!! >:(
OK, I feel better now. :))
Quote from: Solar on November 02, 2011, 07:59:12 PM
Every time the Dims pass a min wage increase, we beat this topic to death, so much so the facts are burned into memory.
What libs don't seem to realize, is every time the idiots raise the base wage, the min wage employee winds up paying more for everything, in turn, its actually a pay cut in reality.
The small business winds up having to raise the price of everything just a bit to cover the increased cost across the board.
This topic really gets me pissed off, to the point I want to go to Congress and literally physically pound statistics into their empty fuckin skulls! AAAARRRGGGHHHHH!!!! >:(
OK, I feel better now. :))
OK, now how do you really feel about min wage.
After the first year I alway negotiated for my pay. If I did not like what they would pay me I moved on. My last job was with the same company for 36 years. They did not like it when headhunters would call me at work. LOL
It never goes well when people apply political solutions to economic problems. That is why teaching self reliance is the greateat kindness you could ever do.
I agree with everything said above this post.
Quote
The unions had a useful purpose 100 years ago, but now they are nothing more than parisites who all too often kill their hosts. The steel industry. The auto industry. Etc.
Those industries were killed off because of 'outsourcing'. It's cheaper to produce product x in China than in America or other first world countries.
When a lot of these industries were leaving the USA, unions were also becoming much weaker. This is of course the great economic miracle known as " 1980s Reagan America".
Quote from: redlom xof on November 06, 2011, 05:51:17 PM
Those industries were killed off because of 'outsourcing'. It's cheaper to produce product x in China than in America or other first world countries.
When a lot of these industries were leaving the USA, unions were also becoming much weaker. This is of course the great economic miracle known as " 1980s Reagan America".
Reagan signed NAFTA? ::)
Quote from: redlom xof on November 06, 2011, 05:51:17 PM
Those industries were killed off because of 'outsourcing'. It's cheaper to produce product x in China than in America or other first world countries.
When a lot of these industries were leaving the USA, unions were also becoming much weaker. This is of course the great economic miracle known as " 1980s Reagan America".
Wrong. No one wants to do biz in China. Your susceptibility to liberal propaganda clouds your ability to think through the problem.
Quote from: taxed on November 06, 2011, 06:28:19 PM
Wrong. No one wants to do biz in China. Your susceptibility to liberal propaganda clouds your ability to think through the problem.
Even China is beginning to outsource.
Damn Capitalism, creating jobs around the World, raising the living standards of third world countries.
Damn those evil bastards!
Quote from: Solar on November 06, 2011, 06:31:52 PM
Even China is beginning to outsource.
Damn Capitalism, creating jobs around the World, raising the living standards of third world countries.
Damn those evil bastards!
Totally. The uninformed think businesses want to outsource to China, like it's no biggie.
QuoteWrong. No one wants to do biz in China.
http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/05/us-investments-china-markets-emerging-markets-fdi.html (http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/05/us-investments-china-markets-emerging-markets-fdi.html)
Just look at where most products that people own are made. Lots of those products used to be made in America.
Companies did this because it was cheaper. Cheaper labor and less safetey regulations etc.
What I'm saying is a fairly common statement. It's not a radical call.
QuoteTotally. The uninformed think businesses want to outsource to China, like it's no biggie.
Business isn't thinking about moving to China and other countries, business has moved. This is 2011 not 1958.
QuoteDamn Capitalism, creating jobs around the World, raising the living standards of third world countries.
Damn those evil bastards!
Capitalism is creating jobs. Lots of jobs in 2nd and 3rd world countries. These jobs are extremely low pay and often dangerous but the argument is at least they have a job now. Business of course is booming because of this new found cheap labor.
The down side to this " globalized capitalism " is jobs are leaving the 1st world countries like America. No more car industry in Detroit. No more steel industry in Pittsburg.
Why are jobs leaving America, Fox?
Because it's more financially sensible to create products where it is cheaper. Where you don't have to worry about workers unions, paying people more than 1 $ a day, government regulations etc.
The solution is to either bring back these industries through government regulations or compete with the labor condititions of China and other countries.
But if it all sounds too complicated you can do what most people do. Pick a side, left or right. If you pick left you have a whole range of shitty options to pick from starting with racism, white people, red state white people, males, uneducated people and white people. If you pick right you have socialism and taxes. ohh and Mexicans.
Quote from: redlom xof on November 06, 2011, 05:51:17 PM
Those industries were killed off because of 'outsourcing'. It's cheaper to produce product x in China than in America or other first world countries.
When a lot of these industries were leaving the USA, unions were also becoming much weaker. This is of course the great economic miracle known as " 1980s Reagan America".
Yes it is cheaper to produce items in China. And yes some of it is due to currency manipulation, but the bulk of it is due to cheap labor and a less intrusive regulatory burden. The former makes labor inputs cheaper and the later makes both labor and energy costs cheaper. But unions driving up the cost of labor beyond anything dictated by market forces or value provided to the company is a strong contributing factor that led to the manufacturing cost disparity between China and the USA being so high.
It's basic cost accounting. Manufacturing has 4 inputs. Labor, energy, materials and overhead. Material costs are more or less the same. Overhead, labor and energy are impacted to various degrees by regulations and unions really, really, really spike up labor costs.
So ask yourself if you want to live in a world where a guy with a high school degree can make 60K per year, get company paid platinum healthcare and a worry free pension and you pay $90 for a knit shirt and $200 for a pair of tennis shoes or do you want to live in a nation that is a fully participating member of a global economy where unskilled labor's pay rate is determined by the value it creates?
Quote from: redlom xof on November 06, 2011, 07:45:46 PM
Because it's more financially sensible to create products where it is cheaper. Where you don't have to worry about workers unions, paying people more than 1 $ a day, government regulations etc.
So you are not a fan of free markets?
Quote from: redlom xof on November 06, 2011, 07:45:46 PM
The solution is to either bring back these industries through government regulations or compete with the labor condititions of China and other countries.
It doesn't have to be anything quite so dramatic as all that. There are still transportation costs, duties and tarrifs. But unskilled labor is not the path to the middle class in a global economy. That's a 21st century reality. And any protectionist gimmicks intended to push against this tide will harm our economy and make us less competitive globally.
Quote from: redlom xof on November 06, 2011, 07:45:46 PM
But if it all sounds too complicated you can do what most people do. Pick a side, left or right. If you pick left you have a whole range of shitty options to pick from starting with racism, white people, red state white people, males, uneducated people and white people. If you pick right you have socialism and taxes. ohh and Mexicans.
Actually I divide it up between the people who want to spend more of what they earn and the people who want to spend more of what other people earn. Personal responsiblity and liberty through greater self reliance vs collectivism and progressive redistribution. I didivde it by the people who wish to enforce the immigration laws on the books vs the people who wish to selectively enforce laws based upon self-serving political calculations. I divide it between people who think big government is the problem and those who think it is the solution.
I will admit that we have done a shitty job of protecting our national interests in this increasingly global economy. We allow China to manipulate it's currency to our disadvantage. We allow China and Russia to steal our intellectual property. We subsidize brazillian oil exploration while stiffling it here with regulations that make little sense. We do not force others to open their markets and give our firms equal access when we open our markets to them.
In a perfect world, one far from the one we actually live in, true free markets would operate by reducing all barriers to trade between nations. In this world, maybe we sell more aircraft and medical equipment and food. Maybe some other country exports raw materials and another manufactures low skilled labor items like shoes. But that isn't what we have and we can blame Bush, Clilnton, Bush and Obama for all making this much worse over the past 20 years.
By everyone doing what they are best suited to do, aggregate wages are higher and product costs are lower and this leads to a higher standard of living not just for us, but for everyone. And while this is nothing like reality, it should be the ideal we strive for and the ideal we hold politicians accountable to when they fail to live up to it.
Too often we subordinate our economic interests for political interests. It's like a bribe. We'll give China a free pass on this or that for some political consideration. And now it's biting us in the ass. Like it or not we cannot back out of the global economy so we all need to just shut up, put on our big boy pants and learn how to play rough.
Why do I get the impression we just helped a kid on his homework assignment? :))
It's all about the chiren.
Quote from: Dan on November 10, 2011, 05:52:20 PM
It's all about the chiren.
He'll either get an A or F, depending on who the teacher voted for, even though were 100% correct, libs simply can't grasp the concept of a free mkt.
Quote from: Solar on November 10, 2011, 06:17:52 PM
Hell either get an A or F, depending on who the teacher voted for, even though were 100% correct, libs simply can't grasp the concept of a free mkt.
They think "free mkt" is something you work for all your life and the get it free before you do.
Quote from: Solar on November 10, 2011, 06:17:52 PM
He'll either get an A or F, depending on who the teacher voted for, even though were 100% correct, libs simply can't grasp the concept of a free mkt.
But what about tye polar bears? :p
Quote from: taxed on November 06, 2011, 06:34:34 PM
Totally. The uninformed think businesses want to outsource to China, like it's no biggie.
Sorry Taxed, I just saw this post.
But you're right, business only wants to survive and they would much rather survive with employees that speak English.
To move a company overseas would be a
monstrumental undertaking as well as a freakin headache.
Quote from: Dan on November 10, 2011, 06:36:51 PM
But what about tye polar bears? :p
As my dad said the first time he tossed me in the water, sink or swim.
Quote from: walkstall on November 10, 2011, 06:45:55 PM
As my dad said the first time he tossed me in the water, sink or swim.
I'm with you. Polar bears either need to grow some gills or just the heck out of the way. Darwin waits for no man or bear. :P
Quote from: walkstall on November 10, 2011, 06:29:41 PM
They think "free mkt" is something you work for all your life and the get it free before you do.
hahahah yes, the word "free" seems to confuse them...
Quote from: redlom xof on November 06, 2011, 07:45:46 PM
Because it's more financially sensible to create products where it is cheaper. Where you don't have to worry about workers unions, paying people more than 1 $ a day, government regulations etc.
The solution is to either bring back these industries through government regulations or compete with the labor condititions of China and other countries.
But if it all sounds too complicated you can do what most people do. Pick a side, left or right. If you pick left you have a whole range of shitty options to pick from starting with racism, white people, red state white people, males, uneducated people and white people. If you pick right you have socialism and taxes. ohh and Mexicans.
I encourage you to learn and understand more about how labor works in business.
Quote from: redlom xof on November 06, 2011, 07:45:46 PM
Because it's more financially sensible to create products where it is cheaper. Where you don't have to worry about workers unions, paying people more than 1 $ a day, government regulations etc.
The solution is to either bring back these industries through government regulations or compete with the labor condititions of China and other countries.
But if it all sounds too complicated you can do what most people do. Pick a side, left or right. If you pick left you have a whole range of shitty options to pick from starting with racism, white people, red state white people, males, uneducated people and white people. If you pick right you have socialism and taxes. ohh and Mexicans.
So are you of the belief that tariffs and subsidies are a good idea, even to the point of isolationism?
In a free mkt world you have two options, join them in competition, or close off trade.
You complain that business is selling out the American worker, yet the alternative business has, is to close it doors, in turn, killing all jobs in their field, at least by remaining in business they keep some employed in this country to handle paperwork, placing orders and finances.
The world has changed, there is no easy answer, other than compete or die.
Quote from: Solar on November 12, 2011, 11:12:49 AM
So are you of the belief that tariffs and subsidies are a good idea, even to the point of isolationism?
In a free mkt world you have two options, join them in competition, or close off trade.
You complain that business is selling out the American worker, yet the alternative business has, is to close it doors, in turn, killing all jobs in their field, at least by remaining in business they keep some employed in this country to handle paperwork, placing orders and finances.
The world has changed, there is no easy answer, other than compete or die.
It seems libs by nature aren't fans of the whole "competition" thing. Or, it's OK if businesses have to compete, as long as they don't have to...
Quote from: taxed on November 12, 2011, 11:25:55 AM
It seems libs by nature aren't fans of the whole "competition" thing. Or, it's OK if businesses have to compete, as long as they don't have to...
Business is merely secondary to the welfare of the employee.
That is if you are a lib, they don't seem to realize without the business, they have no job.
I see it time and time again, they would just a soon see the business fold if they can't have what they want now.
Exactly. You are greedy and selfish if your criteria for investment is to earj a good return on your money.
Quote from: Solar on November 02, 2011, 02:50:20 PM
I agree Dan, Unions love the Min wage BS, it gives them the leverage to force wage hikes on employers.
Government has no business dictating what two people agree upon as a fair trade for labor.
^Also agree
Quote from: Dan on November 02, 2011, 02:21:55 PM
The only sustainable way to increase standards of living is to increase the economic value of the labor of our citizens.
That doesn't mean we let them run up 100K in student loans they will not pay back to get a sociology degree that will earn them 25K per year. That means limiting financial aid to preparation for job fields that will drive our economy in the 21st century. More engineers and nurses and computer programmers and math majors. Fewer art history, sociology and gender studies majors. It means more people going into well paying trades. I know plumbers who make more than MBAs. If my tax dollars are going to subsidize an education then I would rather add another diesel mechanic instead of another lawyer. Get the point.
This is not, however, just a matter of public subsidies. We cannot tax and spend our way into some secular progressive nirvana no matter how much the lefties wish it were so. Everything I have described will be less useful if we do not get more parents taking responsiblity for their children and more children taking responsiblity for their own educations. It can't always be someone else's fault or the fault of ADD or whatever. Without a huge dose of personal responsiblity we are going to have more of the same. A lot of fat, stupid, economically useless adult kids who live at home and feel great about themselves and whine and moan and bitch about how everyone else has screwed them over.
well said dan...well said......will you writer for me when i run for office one day?
You could do much better than me but I'm glad you enjoyed it. :)
Quote from: debatingguy on November 02, 2011, 01:58:22 PM
Is a minimum wage OK and should it be introduced by Germany (leading party plans to do so)?
No, a minimum wage is not OK. What it does is lead to a) inflation, b) unemployment, and c) economic stagnation. If you artificially inflate wages of the bottom of society, then all that happens is that everyone else's wages are adjusted accordingly and you've just devalued the currency. In addition, employers simply stop hiring minimum wage employees.
As for whether Germany should do it, who cares? If they want to screw up their country, that's their problem, not mine.
Raising the minimum wage will lead to fewer jobs because it will make other options more viable.
Once again, leftists don't seem to understand basic math.
Quote from: Dan on December 22, 2013, 05:01:18 PM
Raising the minimum wage will lead to fewer jobs because it will make other options more viable.
Once again, leftists don't seem to understand basic math.
Thats an understatement :laugh: in fact they don't believe in math only whats "fair".
A Burger King meal costs $30 here because the workers get such a high wage. What you end up with is 30 and 40 year olds flippin burgers keeping the younger generations from aquiring work experience.
Quote from: Dan on December 22, 2013, 05:01:18 PM
Raising the minimum wage will lead to fewer jobs because it will make other options more viable.
Once again, leftists don't seem to understand basic math.
Unintended consequences is another concept foreign to libs.
One has to be a real idiot to support minimum wage.
Quote from: taxed on December 24, 2013, 04:46:53 PM
One has to be a real idiot to support minimum wage.
Yep, it forces the mentally challenged into govt programs because they are priced out of the labor pool, in turn destroying ones self esteem along with their humanity.
Good intentions and liberalism always fail.
See this is one of the inconsistencies of leftists that I find most confusing. They talk about their desire to see a return of manufacturing jobs. Fine. Any accounting student can tell you there are 4 components to the cost equation of manufacturing. Labor, energy, materials and indirect overhead. We could get into things like spoilage and waste and transportation costs too but lets keep it simple for the sake of an example here.
Manufacturing goes where costs are lower. It just does. To say otherwise is to be less grounded in reality than Star Trek nerds at comic con conventions. So if liberals want manufacturing jobs then why does there every move attempt to raise the cost of labor and energy? It's like saying I want to date super models as I eat my 15th piece of pizza. When your actions go directly opposite of your stated goals it's hard to take you seriously.
Just sayin.