This gives a pretty good explanation of why Obama's policies are a failure, and why they will continue to fail.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-case-for-supply-side-tax-cuts-2012-08-16?siteid=YAHOOB (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-case-for-supply-side-tax-cuts-2012-08-16?siteid=YAHOOB)
What did Obama spend all that money on trying to create demand?
When it comes to tax cuts, I'm not so sure that it's that easy. If high taxes and regulations were that bad, why is Germany doing alright then? After all we have much higher taxes and much more regulations than what you think is "high".
All I know is that your wealth distribution is out of control. This wouldn't be a problem, if the top 20% spent or invested most of their money. But I doubt they do. So you have lots of people who can't afford buying stuff, and what they can afford is mostly cheap stuff from Chinese factories. On the other hand there are rich people with tons of money in the bank, where it doesn't really do anything.
Now if you think "taxing the rich" is bad, maybe you should think of another way that motivates the rich to put their spare Billions into society. Give 'em medals according to how much money they invested in the success of America, have 'em drive in car pool lanes alone, let their paper work have higher priority with the bureaucrats... whatever privilege you want.
When I was at Six Flags in 2010, I bought a Flash Pass. Why not do the same on a larger scale?
Quote from: Foreigner on August 25, 2012, 11:19:35 AM
What did Obama spend all that money on trying to create demand?
When it comes to tax cuts, I'm not so sure that it's that easy. If high taxes and regulations were that bad, why is Germany doing alright then? After all we have much higher taxes and much more regulations than what you think is "high".
All I know is that your wealth distribution is out of control. This wouldn't be a problem, if the top 20% spent or invested most of their money. But I doubt they do. So you have lots of people who can't afford buying stuff, and what they can afford is mostly cheap stuff from Chinese factories. On the other hand there are rich people with tons of money in the bank, where it doesn't really do anything.
Now if you think "taxing the rich" is bad, maybe you should think of another way that motivates the rich to put their spare Billions into society. Give 'em medals according to how much money they invested in the success of America, have 'em drive in car pool lanes alone, let their paper work have higher priority with the bureaucrats... whatever privilege you want.
When I was at Six Flags in 2010, I bought a Flash Pass. Why not do the same on a larger scale?
We are a free country. People can do what they wish with their own money. They can wipe their butts with it if they want. The more taxes stolen by the government, the closer the people are to slavery.
Quote from: taxed on August 25, 2012, 01:11:56 PM
We are a free country. People can do what they wish with their own money.
They can wipe their butts with it if they want. The more taxes stolen by the government, the closer the people are to slavery.
So you want no taxes at all, Mister "I'm a realist"?
How about getting rich people to contribute more by giving them privileges in return, like the Flash Pass at Six Flags?
Quote from: Foreigner on August 25, 2012, 02:53:54 PM
So you want no taxes at all, Mister "I'm a realist"?
How about getting rich people to contribute more by giving them privileges in return, like the Flash Pass at Six Flags?
I think his point is, we are a fair country, where everyone is taxed the same percentage, except the poor which pays nearly nothing other than sales and local taxes.
To tax the rich at a higher rate is not only unfair, but unconstitutional as well, though that's never been a deterrent to the left in the past.
Problem is, the left has created social programs to benefit the poor, all in an effort to create a permanent voting class of victims, they want a division in classes so they can claim hero status to destroy wealth, a wealth they believe belongs to Govt for redistribution as they personally see fit.
America has been a success, but with rising deficits and no cuts in the spending, we are headed for collapse, there is not enough wealth if you were to steal from all the rich, to make a even dent in our budget/debt.
So why attack the rich as some kind of evil greedy Scrooge?
Because it gives the Left something they can hold up and claim 'they are for the little guy', but what happens when they kill off the golden goose?
Quote from: Foreigner on August 25, 2012, 11:19:35 AM
What did Obama spend all that money on trying to create demand?
When it comes to tax cuts, I'm not so sure that it's that easy. If high taxes and regulations were that bad, why is Germany doing alright then? After all we have much higher taxes and much more regulations than what you think is "high".
All I know is that your wealth distribution is out of control. This wouldn't be a problem, if the top 20% spent or invested most of their money. But I doubt they do. So you have lots of people who can't afford buying stuff, and what they can afford is mostly cheap stuff from Chinese factories. On the other hand there are rich people with tons of money in the bank, where it doesn't really do anything.
Now if you think "taxing the rich" is bad, maybe you should think of another way that motivates the rich to put their spare Billions into society. Give 'em medals according to how much money they invested in the success of America, have 'em drive in car pool lanes alone, let their paper work have higher priority with the bureaucrats... whatever privilege you want.
When I was at Six Flags in 2010, I bought a Flash Pass. Why not do the same on a larger scale?
On a larger scale? The Flash Pass is available to anyone, from anywhere, willing to part with enough of their wealth to purchase the pass. Six Flags places no limit on how many Flash Passes they're willing to part with. How much larger do you want to make it?
We already know how to motivate the rich into investing their "spare billions into society." All we have to do is get the damned government out of the way. That's how this country was built.
Quote from: tbone0106 on August 25, 2012, 08:05:48 PM
On a larger scale? The Flash Pass is available to anyone, from anywhere, willing to part with enough of their wealth to purchase the pass. Six Flags places no limit on how many Flash Passes they're willing to part with. How much larger do you want to make it?
We already know how to motivate the rich into investing their "spare billions into society." All we have to do is get the damned government out of the way. That's how this country was built.
He seems to miss one very important equation in the formula.
What would be the benefit of sitting on all that money, when they could be making it work for them through investing in growth?
Answer: The obama administration has made it a hostile environment to make money through investing, so they are sitting on more than a trillion dollars, waiting for the penalties to be relaxed by the next administration.
And he asked how could one President make so much difference in so little time?
All this done through Executive order, something never done in the history of the US.
Quote from: tbone0106 on August 25, 2012, 08:05:48 PM
On a larger scale? The Flash Pass is available to anyone, from anywhere, willing to part with enough of their wealth to purchase the pass. Six Flags places no limit on how many Flash Passes they're willing to part with. How much larger do you want to make it?
Haha, I don't think rich people are that much into riding roller coasters. :laugh:
I mean the government offering privileges for rich people, for example to save them time. Here, I think this article is going in a reasonable direction:
http://professional.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703293204576106164123424314.html (http://professional.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703293204576106164123424314.html)
If you don't like taxes, why not coming up with an alternative like that?
Quote from: tbone0106 on August 25, 2012, 08:05:48 PM
We already know how to motivate the rich into investing their "spare billions into society." All we have to do is get the damned government out of the way. That's how this country was built.
I get your point. I don't want America to be as highly taxes and regulated as Europe. But not everything your government does is the work of the devil.
Quote from: Solar on August 26, 2012, 07:49:49 AM
He seems to miss one very important equation in the formula.
What would be the benefit of sitting on all that money, when they could be making it work for them through investing in growth?
That may be true for a part of the people who are sitting on a lot of money.
But others may collect it as some kind of sport, to become richer than whoever in some ranking?
Or they don't want to risk any of it with the economy being as it is? (Which isn't the governments fault, at least not just the current or the last one's.)
Quote from: Foreigner on August 26, 2012, 06:12:14 PM
Haha, I don't think rich people are that much into riding roller coasters. :laugh:
I mean the government offering privileges for rich people, for example to save them time. Here, I think this article is going in a reasonable direction:
http://professional.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703293204576106164123424314.html (http://professional.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703293204576106164123424314.html)
If you don't like taxes, why not coming up with an alternative like that?
I get your point. I don't want America to be as highly taxes and regulated as Europe. But not everything your government does is the work of the devil.
That may be true for a part of the people who are sitting on a lot of money.
But others may collect it as some kind of sport, to become richer than whoever in some ranking?
Or they don't want to risk any of it with the economy being as it is? (Which isn't the governments fault, at least not just the current or the last one's.)
I completely disagree with that last statement. If the government is unwilling to put forth a budget, and has already shown a willingness to toss some business under the bus at the expense of their cronies, that makes businesses (the wealthy owners or shareholders) hold back on spending and hiring. They have no clue what the government could suddenly saddle them with, or how the market might be effected by other factors. The government's unwillingness to give America a solid expense plan leaves business unsure of the future, so they hold onto their money, as any smart person would.
Quote from: Foreigner on August 26, 2012, 06:12:14 PM
That may be true for a part of the people who are sitting on a lot of money.
But others may collect it as some kind of sport, to become richer than whoever in some ranking?
Or they don't want to risk any of it with the economy being as it is? (Which isn't the governments fault, at least not just the current or the last one's.)
Have you been living in a bubble?
Does TARP, or any of the following bailouts ring a bell?
Quote from: Solar on August 26, 2012, 09:08:58 PM
Have you been living in a bubble?
Does TARP, or any of the following bailouts ring a bell?
I'm sure this is already on here somewhere, but it looks like it's time for another reminder.
I would like for someone to explain why rich people are responsible for this. Followed by explaining how raising taxes on the rich is going to stop it.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/ (http://www.usdebtclock.org/)
Quote from: kramarat on August 27, 2012, 07:47:55 AM
I'm sure this is already on here somewhere, but it looks like it's time for another reminder.
I would like for someone to explain why rich people are responsible for this. Followed by explaining how raising taxes on the rich is going to stop it.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/ (http://www.usdebtclock.org/)
Thanks for the link, very interesting. Also quite disturbing, though.
Rich people aren't responsible for this at all. But they are important to get it fixed. Of course before that can happen it should be made sure that the government can balance its budget.
How many of the richest people in the U.S. are actively in a debate on how to get all of this fixed? After all, it's their country, too, and I doubt it's in their interest for it to fail.
Does Romney have a real plan? If he has, are at least some of the richest Americans agreeing that his plans make sense? Seriously, I have no clue, because of course European media don't report such details.
@ Solar
I just meant that the housing bubble goes back to some politicians further in the past who wanted poor people to be able to afford their own houses etc. so they pushed policies to make credits available to them. This is where things got started that eventually lead to the financial crisis.
When it comes to bailouts, you're of course right. I actually think there shouldn't be anything that's "too big too fail". Especially not in America, where as far as I understand the principle not to concentrate power too much is a huge part of why it's already lasting more than 230 years. (Same thing is true for the way the internet works, by the way, which also was originally designed decentralized to make it more robust against attacks.)
Now that we're at this issue: Did you guys change anything about this issue or are you (Romney?) planning to do anything about this "too big too fail" problem?
Too be fair, besides bailouts the war in Iraq is accountable for a lot of your debt. That didn't get started by the Democrats. So maybe you should point fingers less and come up with solutions more.
Quote from: Foreigner on August 27, 2012, 04:17:13 PM
Thanks for the link, very interesting. Also quite disturbing, though.
Rich people aren't responsible for this at all. But they are important to get it fixed. Of course before that can happen it should be made sure that the government can balance its budget.
How many of the richest people in the U.S. are actively in a debate on how to get all of this fixed? After all, it's their country, too, and I doubt it's in their interest for it to fail.
Does Romney have a real plan? If he has, are at least some of the richest Americans agreeing that his plans make sense? Seriously, I have no clue, because of course European media don't report such details.
@ Solar
I just meant that the housing bubble goes back to some politicians further in the past who wanted poor people to be able to afford their own houses etc. so they pushed policies to make credits available to them. This is where things got started that eventually lead to the financial crisis.
When it comes to bailouts, you're of course right. I actually think there shouldn't be anything that's "too big too fail". Especially not in America, where as far as I understand the principle not to concentrate power too much is a huge part of why it's already lasting more than 230 years. (Same thing is true for the way the internet works, by the way, which also was originally designed decentralized to make it more robust against attacks.)
Now that we're at this issue: Did you guys change anything about this issue or are you (Romney?) planning to do anything about this "too big too fail" problem?
Too be fair, besides bailouts the war in Iraq is accountable for a lot of your debt. That didn't get started by the Democrats. So maybe you should point fingers less and come up with solutions more.
Ah, I see, and yes, the whole housing mess can be placed squarely in the laps of the Dems.
In hindsight, we should have never entered Iraq, in fact, there is no reason we should even be in that part of the world, we have no reason to buy oil from them, we have more than enough of our own.
Had the left not found ways to stop domestic production... well... that's in another realm where common sense exists, but not in this one.
Quote from: Solar on August 27, 2012, 05:36:37 PM
Ah, I see, and yes, the whole housing mess can be placed squarely in the laps of the Dems.
In hindsight, we should have never entered Iraq, in fact, there is no reason we should even be in that part of the world, we have no reason to buy oil from them, we have more than enough of our own.
Had the left not found ways to stop domestic production... well... that's in another realm where common sense exists, but not in this one.
Lets not forget, that Bush had to get congressional authorization to go to war...................that included the democrats. Although they are trying to erase that little fact.
As far as the wars go, I suspect that there's a lot we don't know. There's a reason Obama didn't immediately end the wars and close Gitmo. I think history is going to show that Bush made the right decision. We've killed a hell of a lot of terrorists, that otherwise could have made it over here.
We had to fight them somewhere. Ignoring them was never going to work.
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500164_162-540376.html (http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500164_162-540376.html)
Quote from: kramarat on August 28, 2012, 04:32:17 AM
Lets not forget, that Bush had to get congressional authorization to go to war...................that included the democrats. Although they are trying to erase that little fact.
As far as the wars go, I suspect that there's a lot we don't know. There's a reason Obama didn't immediately end the wars and close Gitmo. I think history is going to show that Bush made the right decision. We've killed a hell of a lot of terrorists, that otherwise could have made it over here.
We had to fight them somewhere. Ignoring them was never going to work.
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500164_162-540376.html (http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500164_162-540376.html)
Yes, he even had the backing of the UN, but with the amazing ability of hindsight, if we were going there and nothing was going to stop us, then you go all the way.
This war turned into a freackin PC mess then we gave billions to rebuild a desert.
Nope, knowing what we know now, should have left the animals to their own demise.
Quote from: Solar on August 28, 2012, 06:37:45 AM
Yes, he even had the backing of the UN, but with the amazing ability of hindsight, if we were going there and nothing was going to stop us, then you go all the way.
This war turned into a freackin PC mess then we gave billions to rebuild a desert.
Nope, knowing what we know now, should have left the animals to their own demise.
Yeah, hindsight's always 20/20. I think we could have used our intelligence gathering capabilities, found the terrorists and their training camps, and used sustained, targeted airstrikes to take care of most of them. At this point, I think everyone's sick of it.
Quote from: kramarat on August 28, 2012, 06:44:18 AM
Yeah, hindsight's always 20/20. I think we could have used our intelligence gathering capabilities, found the terrorists and their training camps, and used sustained, targeted airstrikes to take care of most of them. At this point, I think everyone's sick of it.
Actually the CIA and special ops had Afghanistan all but secure, till the administration jumped the gun and sent in the Marines, which eventually lead to the killing our only real ally, at which point it was downhill from there.
Quote from: Solar on August 28, 2012, 07:11:01 AM
Actually the CIA and special ops had Afghanistan all but secure, till the administration jumped the gun and sent in the Marines, which eventually lead to the killing our only real ally, at which point it was downhill from there.
What started out as bad, is steadily getting worse. Egypt is destabilized. Syria is coming apart. Libya has become destabilized. Turkey is moving back toward Sharia law. Iraq is anything but stabile. Iran is run by a crazy man...............................................
The entire middle east is a powder keg.
Quote from: kramarat on August 28, 2012, 07:26:17 AM
What started out as bad, is steadily getting worse. Egypt is destabilized. Syria is coming apart. Libya has become destabilized. Turkey is moving back toward Sharia law. Iraq is anything but stabile. Iran is run by a crazy man...............................................
The entire middle east is a powder keg.
Yep, all the more reason to get the Hell out and let them bleed each other dry.
In all honesty, there is really nothing there for us, we have all the energy we need right here at home.
If it were up to me, I'd invade the entire M/E, level it and run it like a dictatorship, that's all these 7th century animals understand, they only respect you at the point of a sword.
But since I'm not in command, I'd rather we just pack up and leave.
Quote from: Solar on August 28, 2012, 02:38:54 PM
Yep, all the more reason to get the Hell out and let them bleed each other dry.
In all honesty, there is really nothing there for us, we have all the energy we need right here at home.
If it were up to me, I'd invade the entire M/E, level it and run it like a dictatorship, that's all these 7th century animals understand, they only respect you at the point of a sword.
But since I'm not in command, I'd rather we just pack up and leave.
That would work for me.................with one caveat. If any one of them attacks Israel, we bomb the shit out of them. No protracted war..........................just lots of missile strikes.
Quote from: kramarat on August 28, 2012, 04:32:17 AM
We had to fight them somewhere. Ignoring them was never going to work.
I think we fought them in Afghanistan. This and improved western intelligence would have probably been enough, in hindsight.
It pissed me off a bit that our German politicians were right about attacking Iraq being BS back then. Because in 2002/2003 even I thought it was right what America is doing.
(youtube.com/watch?v=_k_QbpFl7RM)
Quote from: Foreigner on August 25, 2012, 11:19:35 AM
What did Obama spend all that money on trying to create demand?
When it comes to tax cuts, I'm not so sure that it's that easy. If high taxes and regulations were that bad, why is Germany doing alright then? After all we have much higher taxes and much more regulations than what you think is "high".
All I know is that your wealth distribution is out of control. This wouldn't be a problem, if the top 20% spent or invested most of their money. But I doubt they do. So you have lots of people who can't afford buying stuff, and what they can afford is mostly cheap stuff from Chinese factories. On the other hand there are rich people with tons of money in the bank, where it doesn't really do anything.
Now if you think "taxing the rich" is bad, maybe you should think of another way that motivates the rich to put their spare Billions into society. Give 'em medals according to how much money they invested in the success of America, have 'em drive in car pool lanes alone, let their paper work have higher priority with the bureaucrats... whatever privilege you want.
When I was at Six Flags in 2010, I bought a Flash Pass. Why not do the same on a larger scale?
Holy shit. What planet did you just come in from? You need to be in North Carolina next week at the Democrats' national convention. They'll be looking for folks just exactly like you.
Quote from: tbone0106 on August 29, 2012, 01:25:10 PM
Holy shit. What planet did you just come in from? You need to be in North Carolina next week at the Democrats' national convention. They'll be looking for folks just exactly like you.
Planet Germany, where things are working far better than in most places in America.
What place are you from? Where's your example to prove that your ideas work? All I can see is my favorite country, in my opinion also the greatest experiment in the history of mankind, falling apart and going down the drain. And all I see you guys doing about it is telling each other that you know better and the government, the Democrats or Obama being the only problem America has.
I think that's disappointing. Maybe you're just an older generation here on the forum, I don't know.
What I do know, though, is young Americans being in a lot of debt and your experts wondering why they're not buying houses and cars like older generations (you?) once did. The same experts who are very understanding about the very richest Americans not investing their money. That's very strange, and if American conservatives keep ignoring it, your future in politics may be at stake too.
Trust me, that's not what I want for America. Because I believe that a healthy balance between conservative and progressive forces is an essential factor of what used to make America great.
Foreigner, let me just start by saying I am not that far, in age at least, from the young people you speak of. The financial issues facing the 18-35 year olds today are due in large part to schools, and the entertainment industry that a lot of us listened to more than our parents because it was cool. We were taught that having things was more important than actually earning them. Credit cards were a wonderful way to get what you want, and get it now. The government offered many first-time home buyer programs. My husband and I only had to come up with $1000 for the down payment on our first house. No closing costs, reduced interest, they had to give us a loan, even though we had NO credit history st all, because we qualified for the government's wonderful give housing loans to everybody idea. We were not smart or savvy enough as twenty-somethings to realize what we were doing. Most of my generation have similar stories.
Hubby and I figured out our mistake, and made a drastic financial change. Government has yet to figure that out. You don't balance your budget by taking from your boss. You balance your budget by learning to say no and cutting out what you don't need, or by finding additional work.
Yes, I know that there are young people who don't act responsible when it comes to money. But what about the people who try to get them to act irresponsible like that, be it pushed by the government or not?
And what about the many young people who are in fact responsible about their money, but don't have parents to pay for their education? I have a friend in AZ who has to pay for his education on his own, and by German standards it's just insane what he's going through.
You should be ashamed to protect the very wealthiest people while young Americans are struggling like that. You spend more money on putting people behind bars and on wars than investing it in your own children, their education, or in people's health. What the f*ck happened to your family values, what the f*ck happened to Christianity?
If you seriously believe the good people who founded America would support this BS you're promoting, you guys are out of your minds. You lost your ways and you don't even know it.
Honest hard working blue collar Americans will keep on losing their jobs, because you keep ignoring the rest of the world and generation Y won't be able to afford buying those blue collar workers' cars and houses.
Congratulations.
I can assure you Christianity is alive and well in the US, but Christianity and taxation are two wholly separate topics.
Their are three reasons I am opposed to higher taxes on the wealthy
1) The wealthy already pay for roughly %57 of the population who pay nothing. So, if you open up the market and allow business to grow, you will have a higher percentage of people paying in, by virtue of the fact that they will be making enough to pay in.
2) The more the government taxes, the less a company can provide jobs. Taxation must happen, but at a reasonable level. In a job creating economy, you even have businesses who pay for the education of young hopefulls. Open the economy, people win.
3) Wealthy people buy things, LOTS of things, they stimulate the economy just through large purchases. If one wealthy guy buys a vacation home, custom build. How many people does he pay wages to, just on that purchase? A lot, the same money given to government, gets waisted.
Does America need to go after more trade agreements? Darn straight we do, our current leader has been so busy telling everyone how mediocre we are that building up trade agreements would have looked stupid. Forging new agreements means new buyers for our products, more need.
I am not really sure what you are getting at with college, I had very little help from my parents as far as paying for my education. Those wealthy people you want to tax so heavily, well, a lot of them offer these great things called scholarships, it involves logging off of facebook, turning off MTV, and actually taking the time to fill out applications. It is work, and time consuming, so most people never do it. The government does not owe you a college degree, and plenty of people get through college with little to no debt and without the help of mom and dad, or Uncle Sam.
Quote from: Foreigner on August 30, 2012, 10:22:44 PM
Yes, I know that there are young people who don't act responsible when it comes to money. But what about the people who try to get them to act irresponsible like that, be it pushed by the government or not?
And what about the many young people who are in fact responsible about their money, but don't have parents to pay for their education? I have a friend in AZ who has to pay for his education on his own, and by German standards it's just insane what he's going through.
You should be ashamed to protect the very wealthiest people while young Americans are struggling like that. You spend more money on putting people behind bars and on wars than investing it in your own children, their education, or in people's health. What the f*ck happened to your family values, what the f*ck happened to Christianity?
If you seriously believe the good people who founded America would support this BS you're promoting, you guys are out of your minds. You lost your ways and you don't even know it.
Honest hard working blue collar Americans will keep on losing their jobs, because you keep ignoring the rest of the world and generation Y won't be able to afford buying those blue collar workers' cars and houses.
Congratulations.
And just how long do you think that Germany is going to be able to provide all these free things to the German people, while simultaneously bailing out the rest of Europe?
I'd also suggest that you watch your tone. As you sit here and deride America, my tax dollars are going toward a missile defense shield over Europe.
I'll agree with one thing. Our money would be much better spent inside the US. It's time we leave Europe to fend for themselves.