Quote from: Solar on December 09, 2022, 07:17:58 AMHere's the problem, and I know you've seen it. The left now supports full blown communism through fascism.
There is no longer a middle of the road. Either you want the US to survive, or become just another state of the NWO true communism.

Why even go there? The racism you refer to was Democrats, they owned it then, and they're still pushing it today.
So the question remains! Your point of racism was kicked to the curb by our Founders: "All Men Are Created Equal".

Problem is, it was always the left wanting to hurt black people. Did you not study history?

So again, why do you hate America's Founding ideals, so much so, you'd support the left in anything?
Give us examples where you support the leftists over the Right.

You asked me a question about what I feared from early America and I gave you 3 things.  I'd hope that you also are scared of those things.

Some Liberal ideas that I support are:

• Abortion (to a point)
• Gay marriage
• Keeping religion out of schools and government in general

That's not all of them, but those are 3 that came to mind.

Quote from: ZenMode on December 09, 2022, 05:00:40 AMI don't support the Left any more than I support the Right and I don't support corruption. 

Back on topics, what Trump said was idiotic. This has been Trump's issue for as long as he's been running - when he goes off script, he says dumb things .

Ok since you dont want to talk about people making up their minds over trump why dont you explain what exactly was so bad about what trump said? What is so bad about trump saying some of the constitutions rules have been broken?

Quote from: T Hunt on December 09, 2022, 08:56:09 AMOk since you dont want to talk about people making up their minds over trump why dont you explain what exactly was so bad about what trump said? What is so bad about trump saying some of the constitutions rules have been broken?

If I have to explain to you why his comment was bad, there's no chance we are going to agree and it would be a waste of both of our times.

Quote from: ZenMode on December 09, 2022, 05:27:13 AMNot sure what Biden has to do with what Trump said, but...

yep  it sucks that our two choices were old, narcissistic guy 1 and old, mentally incapacitated guy 2.  Would be nice to have good options.

Hmmm, can you at least admit that trump never said anything wrong about mexico sending drug dealer and rapists or that trump never supported racists at Charlottesville? Can you admit the media took trump out of context in those two classic examples?

Quote from: ZenMode on December 09, 2022, 07:08:03 AMI have my beliefs.  Some of them align with the Left. Some align with the Right. I don't adjust my beliefs to fit neatly into a political party. 
I don't know how "early" you're referring to, but some things that scare me from early america is the blatant misogyny, homophobia and racism.

Whats wrong with the first two? Men and women arent the same and we see that the patriarchy of the past was much better for the nation as a whole than the current matriarchy we are experiencing. Look at how much the cancer of feminism has ruined the family unit. Thats why everyone calls modern feminism cancer. Even the women are generally much less happy today then they were as housewives.

And science has proven that being gay is a harmful mental illness. The loving thing is to help gays to overcome their disorder and live normal happy lives.

As for racism, the right dealt with that in the civil war. Can you give me any examples of right wing racism today?

Quote from: ZenMode on December 09, 2022, 08:57:38 AMIf I have to explain to you why his comment was bad, there's no chance we are going to agree and it would be a waste of both of our times.

So you cant prove that trumps comment was in anyway against the constitution?

Quote from: ZenMode on December 09, 2022, 07:47:36 AMYou asked me a question about what I feared from early America and I gave you 3 things.  I'd hope that you also are scared of those things.

Some Liberal ideas that I support are:

• Abortion (to a point)
• Gay marriage
• Keeping religion out of schools and government in general

That's not all of them, but those are 3 that came to mind.

So you support:

Murdering children
Normalizing mental illness
Pushing atheism in schools and govt

Wow, ya def leftist to the core. What are some equal right wing things you agree with that makes you claim to be a centrist?

Quote from: ZenMode on December 09, 2022, 07:47:36 AMYou asked me a question about what I feared from early America and I gave you 3 things.  I'd hope that you also are scared of those things.

Some Liberal ideas that I support are:

• Abortion (to a point)

Abortion is a States Rights issue, not a Federal one.

Quote

• Gay marriage

There is no societal benefit to same sex marrying. They do not procreate, therefore, their is no need for a certificate.
You do know the left created this issue in the first place. Read about Harry Hayes, the man behind the gay movement.

QuoteKeeping religion out of schools and government in general

Again, none of the govts business. Remember, the First Amendment was a barrier against govt, not religion.

Quote from: Solar on December 09, 2022, 10:47:59 AMAbortion is a States Rights issue, not a Federal one.

Right, we were discussing what Liberal ideas I support. State or federal, it's still a Liberal position to support abortion.

QuoteThere is no societal benefit to same sex marrying. They do not procreate, therefore, their is no need for a certificate.

Procreation is irrelevant, but as soon as the state stops offering the certificate to everyone, the issue will be resolved!

QuoteYou do know the left created this issue in the first place. Read about Harry Hayes, the man behind the gay movement.

No, I didn't know. Regardless of who created it, I still support some abortion.

QuoteAgain, none of the govts business. Remember, the First Amendment was a barrier against govt, not religion.

Quote from: ZenMode on December 09, 2022, 11:11:19 AMRight, we were discussing what Liberal ideas I support. State or federal, it's still a Liberal position to support abortion.

But since you took the position you will now have to defend it.

QuoteProcreation is irrelevant, but as soon as the state stops offering the certificate to everyone, the issue will be resolved!

No, there needs to be a reason for it. Marriage isnt just some random thing humans made up at some point. Here in america we acknowledge the religious foundation of marriage. Cant seperate marriage from religion.

QuoteNo, I didn't know. Regardless of who created it, I still support some abortion.

But on what moral grounds?

Quote from: ZenMode on December 09, 2022, 11:11:19 AMRight, we were discussing what Liberal ideas I support. State or federal, it's still a Liberal position to support abortion.

Well supporting the murder of children, certainly is a liberal position.

QuoteProcreation is irrelevant, but as soon as the state stops offering the certificate to everyone, the issue will be resolved!

No, it's what society is based upon! Recording family history IS, a societal decision millennia old.
Gays do not procreate, it ends in one generation, there is no need to record it.
Also, marriage is a religious institution, again, a First Amendment issue the govt has no business getting involved in.
Remember, gays were offered a Civil Union license, one the left handily rejected out of hand, simply because, this was never about anything other than destroying the sanctity of marriage.

QuoteNo, I didn't know. Regardless of who created it, I still support some abortion.

Yeah, we know, damn the children!

Quote from: T Hunt on December 09, 2022, 11:18:51 AMBut on what moral grounds?

              

Libs and morality?

Quote from: Solar on December 09, 2022, 11:20:11 AMWell supporting the murder of children, certainly is a liberal position.
No, it's what society is based upon! Recording family history IS, a societal decision millennia old.
Gays do not procreate, it ends in one generation, there is no need to record it.
Also, marriage is a religious institution, again, a First Amendment issue the govt has no business getting involved in.
Remember, gays were offered a Civil Union license, one the left handily rejected out of hand, simply because, this was never about anything other than destroying the sanctity of marriage.

Yeah, we know, damn the children!

Thats the core of it right there. The left first want to make marriage non religious then to redefine it in an attempt to prove that man created marriage in the first place and not God. Its another pathetic failed attempt to by the atheists to attack religion, nothing new.

Quote from: Solar on December 09, 2022, 11:20:11 AMWell supporting the murder of children, certainly is a liberal position.
No, it's what society is based upon! Recording family history IS, a societal decision millennia old.
Gays do not procreate, it ends in one generation, there is no need to record it.
Also, marriage is a religious institution, again, a First Amendment issue the govt has no business getting involved in.
Remember, gays were offered a Civil Union license, one the left handily rejected out of hand, simply because, this was never about anything other than destroying the sanctity of marriage.

Yeah, we know, damn the children!

Are you going to have the state confirm that each couple has children to maintain their marriage?  Should we give fertility tests before the state grants a marriage license? Can divorced men, who have had a vasectomy, be disallowed from remarrying?

You seem to want to give the government a LOT of oversight into the lives of people!

Quote from: ZenMode on December 09, 2022, 11:47:32 AMAre you going to have the state confirm that each couple has children to maintain their marriage?  Should we give fertility tests before the state grants a marriage license? Can divorced men, who have had a vasectomy, be disallowed from remarrying?

Why would ANY of that matter? Fertility is why gay marriage isnt allowed, its not the basis for why regular marriage is a thing.
The family is and science shows us that you need a father and mother to raise a child. Thats why we try to reduce single parent families as well.

There is no such thing as gay parents.

QuoteYou seem to want to give the government a LOT of oversight into the lives of people!

Projection. In fact it is YOU wanting the govt to come in and force people to accept mental disorders as normal by accepting homosexual marriage.

Remember, the govt allowing gay marriage is actually the govt getting MORE involved. The libertarian position is for the govt to stay out of marriage and leave it the way its always been, to leave it to the states where the constitution puts it.