Started by Shooterman, February 11, 2012, 03:58:55 AM
Quote from: Solar on July 02, 2012, 07:48:38 AMRead my above post.Your need to make the Federal Govt the King with the final say, slaps in the face of what the Founders had in mind,
Quote they saw the Govt as the servant of the people, not the other way around.
QuoteRemember, we retain the right to dismantle as a people, a corrupt Govt.
QuoteThat hardly sounds like a Govt with the right to dictate to Sovereign States whether they can stay or not.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 03, 2012, 05:12:42 AMI don't think you understand what we're discussing here. The federal government is king over the states. Not only is your whiny appeal to the founders irrelevant, it's clearly wrong, given that this principle is explicitly stated in the Constitution.
QuoteWhy do you equate people with the states?
QuoteThe right? Perhaps, but not legal rights. No sane government would ever write into law the right to rebel against the state...in fact, it is quite explicitly outlawed in the Constitution. Huh.Sovereign people, or sovereign states? There's a difference here.
QuoteYou still haven't answered my question regarding the practical implications of any state having the right to secede from the union on a whim.
QuoteAnd to get it out of the way, do you hold any sympathy over the confederacy's specific secession?
Quote from: Solar on July 03, 2012, 05:32:26 AMNo it's NOT, read the Bill of Rights!
QuoteAnd what part of Sovereign State, do you not understand?
QuoteHUH?Jefferson termed the "unalienable Rights" of Americans, chief among which, he wrote, are "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." The Declaration described in simple terms what governments are meant to do, and what citizens are obliged to do if governments fail to perform to specification. "That to secure these [unalienable] rights," Jefferson explained,
Quote Governments are instituted among Men states, deriving their just powers to tax and enslave from the consent of the governed white male state legislatures, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends slavery, it is the Right legal right of the people white male state legislatures to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government laying its foundation on such principles the white christian male power structure and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and Happiness yet, upon finding their pro states' rights government entirely unequipped to battle their motherland, institute a strong central authority.
QuoteWhim, do you think any State would take secession lightly?
QuoteThat question makes no sense.
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 03, 2012, 05:44:51 AMShow me where in the Constitution states are declared sovereign.
QuoteJefferson never argued that the law should allow for rebellion (that would be stupid); he himself had his vice president tried for treason. He merely argued that the people are in the ethical right to abolish an unjust government.
QuoteAre you a Confederate sympathizer?
Quote from: Sci Fi Fan on July 03, 2012, 05:44:51 AMAre you a Confederate sympathizer?
Quote from: Shooterman on July 03, 2012, 07:55:17 AM................................Can not speak for Solar or anyone else, but I damned sure am.
QuoteWhat is the Constitution but a Compact among the States that created the union? Each state was sovereign and gave some of that sovereignty- limited- to the union they had created. The created can never be greater than the creator.
Quote from: mdgiles on July 03, 2012, 09:30:32 AMJust a point, but the union was greater than any individual state. They recognized that principle, which is why they formed a union in the first place.
Quote from: walkstall on July 03, 2012, 08:58:34 AM Shooterman has been as long as I have know him. Sick em Shooter!!!!!
Quote from: Shooterman on July 03, 2012, 10:08:09 AMI will make no apology for my state or for my kin that fought to preserve their homes.
Quote from: Shooterman on July 03, 2012, 07:55:17 AMShow where the states are not declared sovereign.What is the Constitution but a Compact among the States that created the union? Each state was sovereign and gave some of that sovereignty- limited- to the union they had created. The created can never be greater than the creator.I don't think you understand Jefferson's words. Then are they not morally right and duty bound to overthrow a tyrannical government?I would suggest a perusal by you of the Kentucky and Virginia resolutions of 1798 and 1799, and the principle of state nullification, which is worthless without the ultimate step of secession. ................................Can not speak for Solar or anyone else, but I damned sure am.
QuoteI would suggest a perusal by you of the Kentucky and Virginia resolutions of 1798 and 1799, and the principle of state nullification, which is worthless without the ultimate step of secession.
Quote from: mdgiles on July 04, 2012, 01:17:11 AMAnd I suggest you read up on the Nullification Crisis of 1832. What is it about neo confederates constantly trying to convince us they fought for some cause nobler than human chattel slavery. States Rights? The minute the South supported the Fugitive Slave Act, they forfeited any claim to being the "champions" of states rights. Or state sovereignty.
Quote from: Shooterman on July 04, 2012, 01:53:21 AMHow so? Rightly or wrongly, and it was wrong morally to own another person, but until the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment, which freed the slaves, and rightly so, they were still considered property, not only by the slave owners themselves, but by many Yankees, as well. Supporting a return of an investment was, under the law, not unreasonable. As you would expect property stolen from you to be returned.I certainly do not know what ever the hell a neo- Confederate is, MD. I am sure it is intended as a pejorative, which is not really surprising. As you well know, many Yankees held slaves as their property as did freed Blacks.
Quote from: Solar on July 04, 2012, 03:21:55 AMI'm curious, were all slaves black?