Started by tbone0106, June 24, 2012, 11:31:48 AM
Quote from: COVER D on June 25, 2012, 07:58:12 PMCorrection.I meant there were 3 American carriers at Midway and Japan would have had 6but 2 were getting repaired.Also, does this site have an edit button to correct grammar mistakes?As for the battleships, most of the battleships sunk at Pearl were obsolete builtbefore WW1. We surely needed the Arizona later on but won w/o it. At Guadacanalthey lost 23 ships and we lost 23 destroyers but we still won the island. The Japsused it to run troops in called the Tokyo Express. That's what we called it.The battleships figured heavily into that battle and others like Leyete which turnedout to be a turkey shoot for us.
Quote from: tbone0106 on June 25, 2012, 02:11:30 PMNot exactly. I'm saying that battleships -- think Iowa class, USS Missouri -- not 'battle ships,' are outmoded. The last US navy battleship was decommissioned more that 20 years ago.But my point was, the decline of the battleship took place during WWII, and it began at the beginning for the US -- at Pearl Harbor.
QuoteIf the Japanese exploded an atomic weapon, I've certainly never heard even a rumor about it. Considering the size, scope, and sheer cost of the Manhattan Project, a Japanese A-bomb seems a bit far-fetched to me. And one can only imagine what the Japanese would use to deliver one -- a submarine, I suppose. A Betty would never get off the ground with an A-bomb of that vintage.
Quote from: mdgiles on June 26, 2012, 12:05:06 PM They exploded a device. I saw it on a History channel program on Japanese weapons.The portion of Korea where they worked on the weapon disappeared behind the Iron Curtain. And of course much of the project was slowed down by the incredible bickering between the Imperial Army and the Imperial Navy. In any case the most difficult part of making an A-bomb is making it into a weapon. If you can get enough Uranium 235 to achieve critical mass, you can make a device. Getting that device into a weapon that doesn't explode prematurely and/or kill the crew handling it of radiation poisoning is a tad trickier. Much of the B-29 program came about because they needed a bomber big enough, and fast enough, that could fly high enough to drop the weapon.
Quote from: COVER D on June 26, 2012, 04:23:27 AMBTW, I don't think the Bismark ever got out to the Atlantic did it? The British kept it bottled up in the Channel. It sunk one of their ships and then all hell went loseas the British got it as you say.This is what I was trying to say about our obsolete ships in the Pacific. This guy says it better than me.While the loss of five battleships and the resultant death of some 1,800 crewmen that morning was tragic, it must be recognized that these ships were far from being the powerful assets they are usually portrayed as being. Most were World War One era dreadnoughts at the end of their service lives (the newest of the them, the West Virginia, had been commissioned almost twenty years earlier) and as such, most were on the verge of being scrapped. In fact, it was probably the threat of war that had kept them from the wrecking yards as long as it had. Despite numerous upgrades and extensive modernizations, the fact of the matter is that these ships were clearly obsolete by 1941, a reality which was demonstrated by the fact that all of the surviving Pearl Harbor battleships all were either scrapped or sunk as targets within months of the end of hostilities, clearly implying that their combat capabilities were considered fairly limited even then. What Pearl Harbor saw was the demise of a weapons system that was already becoming obsolete; their destruction served only to quicken their end and underline their already diminished role.
QuoteWhat Pearl Harbor saw was the demise of a weapons system that was already becoming obsolete; their destruction served only to quicken their end and underline their already diminished role.
QuoteYeah, the B-29 and the A-bomb went hand-in-hand, but more by happenstance than by design. The original orders for B-29s were placed in May, 1941, six months before Pearl Harbor, The Los Alamos site in New Mexico where the A-bomb became reality wasn't even purchased by the federal government until late in 1942. The USAAF spec that resulted in the B-29 came out in 1939, years before work on an atomic weapon began. The two were simply not related.When it came time to deliver the A-bomb, the B-29 was, of course, the obvious choice. Unlike the other two strategic bombers in the inventory, the B-17 and the B-24, the B-29 could haul the load easily at high altitude and deliver it with a reasonable chance for the crew to escape the blast. Either of the others would have had to be radically modified to even deliver one of the bombs, and even then, the planes were slow enough that the crews and planes would probably have been consumed in the fireball.
QuoteAt Guadacanal they lost 23 ships and we lost 23 destroyers but we still won the island. The Japsused it to run troops in called the Tokyo Express. That's what we called it.
Quote from: mdgiles on June 27, 2012, 01:22:10 AM Actually the Manhattan Project began modestly in 1939. And the B-29 project was MORE expensive than the Manhattan Project $3 billion versus $2 billion. The payload of the B-17 and B-24 weren't equal to the task of carrying the bomb (B-17 =2.5 tons, B-24 =3 tons). The B-29 had a maximum bomb load of 10 tons. in addition the b-29 had greater range, which was really the driving force behind developing it. It was needed to bomb Japan from bases the US had or was likely to have, even with conventional loads.
Quote from: tbone0106 on June 27, 2012, 11:13:47 AMYou are correct in every respect. And in my opinion, the B-29 was worth the money spent. WOW, what a plane for the day!My only point was, though they may have had their beginnings at around the same time, the B-29 and the Manhattan Project were not related. Even the best minds of the time would be challenged to spec a bomber to carry a bomb... that no one knows the first thing about, not size, weight, anything at all. Six years of peace and war intervened, and the two just happened to come together.BTW, LeMay's B-29s were killing as many as 100,000 every night raid over Japan even before the A-bombs. Dropping a carpet of Willie Pete munitions on cities filled with paper and wood houses makes for one hell of a bonfire.