• Welcome, Guest. Please login.

Detailed analysis of Operation Market Garden

Started by ldub23, November 26, 2020, 12:55:27 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

ldub23

The defeat  of the  allies was  mostly the  fault  of  Gen Gavin and  his  British superior, Browning.

winterset

Quote from: ldub23 on April 01, 2021, 10:48:53 AM
The defeat  of the  allies was  mostly the  fault  of  Gen Gavin and  his  British superior, Browning.
It was an idiotic plan and blame Montgomery for dreaming it up.

They EXPECTED to take EVERY BRIDGE INTACT THE VERY FIRST DAY.  Tell me that was not stupid.

ldub23

Quote from: winterset on April 02, 2021, 08:39:25 AM
It was an idiotic plan and blame Montgomery for dreaming it up.

They EXPECTED to take EVERY BRIDGE INTACT THE VERY FIRST DAY.  Tell me that was not stupid.

Montgomery  made a  mess of alot  of things.

Hoofer

Quote from: ldub23 on November 26, 2020, 12:55:27 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTUC79o4Kmc
You do know... this guy is speculating, more than being historical... right?
Most people would just say his full of BS.   It doesn't matter if he gets anything dead wrong, he'll just produce another video next week, and his claims/assertions will just fade into bit-land, everyone will have forgotten.
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

winterset

This particular modern version of the circus side side show carny gets a lot of fools to buy off on his crap.

Market Garden did not work because it was an idiotic plan that assumed the Germans would just lay down and surrender.

Hoofer

Quote from: winterset on April 04, 2021, 10:48:58 PM
This particular modern version of the circus side side show carny gets a lot of fools to buy off on his crap.

Market Garden did not work because it was an idiotic plan that assumed the Germans would just lay down and surrender.
Another grandiose English plan, complete with TEA breaks in the afternoon!
You'd think... the Brits would have used the intelligence from Blenchy (sp) Park, before they cooked up such an elaborate scheme.

History is being RE-WRITTEN, we all know it, and anything allowed to pass through Google - is suspect.
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

ldub23

Quote from: Hoofer on April 05, 2021, 12:08:59 AM
Another grandiose English plan, complete with TEA breaks in the afternoon!
You'd think... the Brits would have used the intelligence from Blenchy (sp) Park, before they cooked up such an elaborate scheme.

History is being RE-WRITTEN, we all know it, and anything allowed to pass through Google - is suspect.

For  one thing this  guy  is excellent, and a  conservative historian. I strongly suggest you  watch his  video on why hitler didnt trust  his  generals. It  contains valuable economic  info. All history is  subject to interpretation and this guy does an excellent  job and when new  info comes  out  he makes an updated  video as  he  has  done twice since this  one  came  out. I will bump up the other  video

Solar

Quote from: Hoofer on April 05, 2021, 12:08:59 AM
Another grandiose English plan, complete with TEA breaks in the afternoon!
You'd think... the Brits would have used the intelligence from Blenchy (sp) Park, before they cooked up such an elaborate scheme.

History is being RE-WRITTEN, we all know it, and anything allowed to pass through Google - is suspect.
Nailed It!!!
Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Hoofer

My Conservative Co-worker has a College Degree in World History - he works for us, because he doesn't want to sell crap on Youtube & has a family to support.
His wife is a flaming Liberal College Professor, who votes Liberal all-the-time... so I get to hear BOTH sides..  :ttoung: and make up my own mind.  So, I raise call your bet & raise you one Liberal College Professor!   :ttoung: :ttoung: :ttoung: 

I read an article in Archeology Today, but a very famous grave digger, very well known name.   He was trying to completely re-write a part of Israel's history, with his assertions.   A decade later, he was proven *dead wrong* by a simple coin.  New facts - oh, he sure had them.

Awhile back, while working in TN, a co-worker walked in with a Jimmy Carter biography, singing his praises... one of the smartest Presidents, so compassionate, so globally & environmentally minded.   Just couldn't figure out why or how Ronald Reagan beat him.  He wasn't alive during the Carter Presidency, I was, so was my other co-worker - but, no matter what we said, Carter started the DOE & DEA, price controls, double-digit inflation, oil crisis, hostages in Iran, double-digit mortgage interest rates, forced 55mph speed limits, boycott of 1980 Olympics, 3-mile island, Stagflation, gave away the Panama Canal, let Russia into Afghanistan, escalated the cold war, etc., etc., Carter was an absolute control freak!  This co-worker was completely disconnected from the reality of the situation, and "we" weren't gonna convince him that Jimmy Carter was an anti-Semite, far from a "saint".  Reagan was "bad"... I guess... but he was still in Diapers during the Reagan era, and I was a already married, working my second job.

The guy in the video, bless-his-heart, wasn't alive during WW2, probably not even the Korean war, and possibly in diapers for the Vietnam war.
Anyone who has taken a casual look at the *changes* in warfare from WW1 - WW2 - Korea -Vietnam and today's engagements, sees *huge* differences in how the conflicts are/were fought.  The tendency is to "visualize" war as a continuing monolithic event in our minds, the reason for fighting, how they fought, the mindset of the people, the mindset of the public, the propaganda of the time - we automatically apply our historical template as "a factual timeline of events"- when it's clearly not.

Now we have *another dynamic* - more dangerous to truthfulness than before, Youtube / Google, whom we already *know* is filtering and suppressing what is allowed to be posted as *factual*.  The truth gets diluted over time, by authors who over-emphasize their pet peeves, and de-emphasize those "messy, embarrassing failings" of their favorite sons.  Decades later, the 2 "historical streams", both partially true, but biased, gets re-written - "Tanking into account ALL historical records, and NEW findings..." as the definitive, complete work, pledged to historical accuracy!!!   BS  :thumbdown:  They're using corrupt source material.   And, they're making movies, using the same bad history, far from the original, most accurate accounts, each arm-chair historian, adds their own slant, emphasis or de-emphasis, and by golly, even Stalin starts looking like a humanitarian! 

Am I saying this guy is full of BS?   Nope, I am saying be careful, history is being altered, IMO, his videos are what I consider ENTERTAINMENT, like everything else Youtube allows on.... don't we already know that???   Or, are you going to stand by, and vigorously defend every detail of this guy who is long on speculation?

If you want to see a prime example of historical propaganda, DL and watch the move "Northstar".  It's about the glorious Socialism in Ukraine during WW2.  Really easy to find .. youtube is owned by Google, and anything promoting Socialist-Communist-Markist seems to pop right up like turds in a cesspool.
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

Solar

Quote from: Hoofer on April 05, 2021, 02:38:48 AM
My Conservative Co-worker has a College Degree in World History - he works for us, because he doesn't want to sell crap on Youtube & has a family to support.
His wife is a flaming Liberal College Professor, who votes Liberal all-the-time... so I get to hear BOTH sides..  :ttoung: and make up my own mind.  So, I raise call your bet & raise you one Liberal College Professor!   :ttoung: :ttoung: :ttoung: 

I read an article in Archeology Today, but a very famous grave digger, very well known name.   He was trying to completely re-write a part of Israel's history, with his assertions.   A decade later, he was proven *dead wrong* by a simple coin.  New facts - oh, he sure had them.

Awhile back, while working in TN, a co-worker walked in with a Jimmy Carter biography, singing his praises... one of the smartest Presidents, so compassionate, so globally & environmentally minded.   Just couldn't figure out why or how Ronald Reagan beat him.  He wasn't alive during the Carter Presidency, I was, so was my other co-worker - but, no matter what we said, Carter started the DOE & DEA, price controls, double-digit inflation, oil crisis, hostages in Iran, double-digit mortgage interest rates, forced 55mph speed limits, boycott of 1980 Olympics, 3-mile island, Stagflation, gave away the Panama Canal, let Russia into Afghanistan, escalated the cold war, etc., etc., Carter was an absolute control freak!  This co-worker was completely disconnected from the reality of the situation, and "we" weren't gonna convince him that Jimmy Carter was an anti-Semite, far from a "saint".  Reagan was "bad"... I guess... but he was still in Diapers during the Reagan era, and I was a already married, working my second job.

The guy in the video, bless-his-heart, wasn't alive during WW2, probably not even the Korean war, and possibly in diapers for the Vietnam war.
Anyone who has taken a casual look at the *changes* in warfare from WW1 - WW2 - Korea -Vietnam and today's engagements, sees *huge* differences in how the conflicts are/were fought.  The tendency is to "visualize" war as a continuing monolithic event in our minds, the reason for fighting, how they fought, the mindset of the people, the mindset of the public, the propaganda of the time - we automatically apply our historical template as "a factual timeline of events"- when it's clearly not.

Now we have *another dynamic* - more dangerous to truthfulness than before, Youtube / Google, whom we already *know* is filtering and suppressing what is allowed to be posted as *factual*.  The truth gets diluted over time, by authors who over-emphasize their pet peeves, and de-emphasize those "messy, embarrassing failings" of their favorite sons.  Decades later, the 2 "historical streams", both partially true, but biased, gets re-written - "Tanking into account ALL historical records, and NEW findings..." as the definitive, complete work, pledged to historical accuracy!!!   BS  :thumbdown:  They're using corrupt source material.   And, they're making movies, using the same bad history, far from the original, most accurate accounts, each arm-chair historian, adds their own slant, emphasis or de-emphasis, and by golly, even Stalin starts looking like a humanitarian! 

Am I saying this guy is full of BS?   Nope, I am saying be careful, history is being altered, IMO, his videos are what I consider ENTERTAINMENT, like everything else Youtube allows on.... don't we already know that???   Or, are you going to stand by, and vigorously defend every detail of this guy who is long on speculation?

If you want to see a prime example of historical propaganda, DL and watch the move "Northstar".  It's about the glorious Socialism in Ukraine during WW2.  Really easy to find .. youtube is owned by Google, and anything promoting Socialist-Communist-Markist seems to pop right up like turds in a cesspool.
BINGO!!! "Tell a lie often enough"?

This is where age and wisdom proves out and BS on youtube is anything but truth.
I would literally ban youtube, but there still some entertainment value in disproving all of their bull shit.
Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Hoofer

Quote from: Solar on April 05, 2021, 03:55:57 AM
BINGO!!! "Tell a lie often enough"?

This is where age and wisdom proves out and BS on youtube is anything but truth.
I would literally ban youtube, but there still some entertainment value in disproving all of their bull shit.

The North Star - 1943 movie...
Wikipedia - a prime example of how history gets polluted, pits Socialism against Communist against Nazism, guess which isn't mentioned, & which is glorified?

The North Star (also known as Armored Attack in the US) is a 1943 anti-war film produced by Samuel Goldwyn Productions and distributed by RKO Radio Pictures. It was directed by Lewis Milestone, written by Lillian Hellman and featured production design by William Cameron Menzies. The film starred Anne Baxter, Dana Andrews, Walter Huston, Walter Brennan and Erich von Stroheim. The music was written by Aaron Copland, the lyrics by Ira Gershwin, and the cinematography was by James Wong Howe. The film also marked the debut of Farley Granger.

The film is about the resistance of Ukrainian villagers, through guerrilla tactics, against the German invaders of the Ukrainian SSR. The film was an unabashedly pro-Soviet propaganda film at the height of the war.[2]

In the 1950s, it was criticized for this reason and it was re-cut to remove the idealized portrayal of Soviet collective farms at the beginning and to include references to the Hungarian Uprising of 1956.[2]

---------
In June 1941, Ukrainian villagers are living in peace. As the school year ends, a group of friends decide to travel to Kiev for a holiday. To their horror, they find themselves attacked by German aircraft, part of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union. Eventually their village itself is occupied by the Nazis. Meanwhile, men and women take to the hills to form partisan militias.

The full brutality of the Nazis is revealed when the Germans send Dr. von Harden to use the village children as a source of blood for transfusions into wounded German soldiers. Some children lose so much blood that they die. When Dr. Pavel Kurin, a famous Russian doctor, discovers this and informs the partisans, they prepare to strike back. They launch a cavalry assault on the village to rescue the children. The Russian doctor accuses the German doctor of being worse than the convinced Nazis, because he has used his skills to support them. He then shoots him. The peasants join together, and one girl envisions a future in which they will "make a free world for all men".
----------
The House Committee on Un-American Activities would later cite The North Star as one of the three noted examples of pro-Soviet works made by Hollywood, the other two being Warner Brothers' Mission to Moscow (1943) and MGM's Song of Russia (1944).[3] Similar U.S. World War II movies are RKO Radio Pictures's Days of Glory on Russian resistance in the Tula Oblast and MGM's Dragon Seed on Chinese efforts against the Japanese occupation.[4]

The extent to which the film incorporated official Soviet propaganda about collective farms prompted British anti-communist writer Robert Conquest, a member of the British Foreign Office's Information Research Department (an anti-communist propaganda unit)[5] in the 1950s, to later write "a travesty greater than could have been shown on Soviet screens to audiences used to lies, but experienced in [collective-farm conditions] to a degree requiring at least a minimum of restraint".[6]
-----------


WHY...?  Is this crap on Youtube?  Why does it pop right up with the rest of the war movies when you search for WW2 era films?
We subconsiously choose winners & losers, good guys vs bad guys in movies.  The Socialists in Ukraine are just wonderful, cheerful, fun loving, hard working - until the evil Nazis (National SOCIALISTS) come along and start strafing them with airplanes.  To really add to the horror, drain little girls of all their blood!  egads!

You're left choosing between:
a.  Nazi (BAD Socialists)
b.  Ukranian Socialism (peaceful, fun loving, collective farmers)
c.  Capitalism

Thanks GOOGLE!!!
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

Solar

It started with Wiki getting in the tank with Marxists, simultaneously, google was already leftist, which leaves little for quick reliable sources for truth.
Youtube is the last place I'd go for any truth on any given subject, simply because they have deleted all Conservative content, so why would anyone in their Right mind think youtube is going to leave anything up that exposes Americas enemies?
Official Trump Cult Member

#WWG1WGA

Hoofer

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2iON4ttM0-UO4jTBmF-qJg

What I LIKE about this guy, he actually visits the sites.  Tino Struckmann.  So much more detail than regurgitating diluted history, you see the sites, inside and out and you're left to draw your own conclusions.  I am in no way endorsing any of his movies, artistic license - just that it's nice to see the actual hardware & sites of where this took place, a perspective that's pretty hard to twist into some new historical perspective.

I apologize for totally detailing these threads, it's been bugging me lately, real history being distilled down to speculation & psychological crap, there's no longer any "meat on the bones."   Equally troubling, the volumes of historical imagination/garbage given *equal* footing with actual recorded events... That's what I mean when I say, "historical dilution."  What was once recorded, 90% true, is now surrounded with so much falsehood, by volume, less than 10% truth remains - and it all gets thrown together, with equal weigh, for general research!!!   If that weren't difficult to wade through - add Google's influence & censorship, now it's all suspect, truth and error - who can tell?

Sorry for the long rants - this has been on my mind, sorry if I offended ldub23 - you really ought to quit posting videos and join in a real discussion.
All animals are created equal; Some just take longer to cook.   Survival is keeping an eye on those around you...

winterset

Quote from: ldub23 on April 05, 2021, 12:52:17 AM
For  one thing this  guy  is excellent, and a  conservative historian. I strongly suggest you  watch his  video on why hitler didnt trust  his  generals. It  contains valuable economic  info. All history is  subject to interpretation and this guy does an excellent  job and when new  info comes  out  he makes an updated  video as  he  has  done twice since this  one  came  out. I will bump up the other  video

I have looked this guy over and just because he is supposedly conservative does not mean he knows his ass from a hole in the ground.

NONE of his video's are worth the time.

Hitler did not trust his generals because most of his generals knew how incompetent he was. His ego never allowed him to admit to one single mistake. Tell your conservative historian to actually learn some history.