Quote from: Alaska Slim on August 21, 2014, 06:50:49 AM
I' am Free Marketeer, not a liberal.

I believe in Natural Law: Life, Liberty, Property, as it was defined by John Locke. I believe in American Exceptionalism strictly as Alex de Tocqueville defined it.

Then why do we need illegals?

Quote
This means I'm against Abortion, for it violates life, I'm against the Affordable Care Act, for it violates Liberty, and I'm Against Department of the Interior's management of Alaskan Oil Reserves, for it violates property.

I have a ton of questions and a lot I want to learn from your perspective on the whole oil company/Alaska thing, but seeing how you don't understand the basics of the free market, and your perspective that illegals help the economy, I couldn't trust or rely on your perspective.  It really is a shame, because you would have been a treat for me.

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The Second part means that America is unique for how it (once) used Private Association to address societal ills, instead of Public organization, as nearly all other nations have done.

I believe in the presence of Emergent order, which gave form to Natural Law, Economics, Common Law, and Language.

This means I'am suspicious if not in outright contempt of any laws that seek to place themselves above Common Law.
Emergent order is affirmed by it, something in the very fabric reality. It is an immutable truth you can choose to respect, but never ignore, for its effects will be felt regardless.

Last, but not least, I believe in the Lord my God, my savior and sovereign, who constructed Natural Law as it Exists, which is the key itself to Humans understanding Divine law. The Lord was gracious enough to appoint St. Thomas Aquinas, the namesake of my First High School, to write extensively on the existence of Natural Law and its effects.

I thank him equally for creating Father Robert Sirroco, who helped to further bridge my Catholic beliefs to my Economic imperatives, along with everyone who has joined with him at the Acton institute.

And I thank him for creating the Founders, whose Socratic example of being antagonistic to political power, and harboring great love of Liberty, served as a personal inspiration to me, on top of their creation of a nation in which we live, the one human society on Earth that has come the closest to truly embracing what Natural Law affirms.

And I finally thank him for allowing me to know it. It was by pure chance I could. I' am humbled by it.

We'll see.  So far, believing that illegals help the economy puts you in with the man made global warming believers and other flat-Earthers.  I hope you crawl out of this, because I think you could be a benefit if you open your eyes and start thinking.

Quote from: taxed on August 22, 2014, 04:42:17 AM
Did you not read the 30 page report about the burden on Texas? 

Fiscal effects as far as I could tell, not quantifying "morale loss" as you put it.

QuoteThat's an American problem.

Welfare is the problem period. It's sophistic to say "No, you can't come here because I'll give you money".

That's something that's our fault, so what are we blaming them for? It's nonsense.

QuoteThe illegals are gravy on top of the welfare system.  The burden of illegals on welfare is not excused because more legals are on it. 

True, it's not an excuse, but it just so happens that they contribute more than they take.

CATO says this:

"...illegal immigration may be even more of a net plus to
the Social Security system than legal immigration. Because of their
unauthorized status, illegal immigrants are ineligible to receive
benefits, no matter how many years they work inside the United
States. And despite the popular perception that they do not pay
taxes, the Social Security Administration itself estimates that about
three-quarters of unauthorized immigrants in the work force actu-
ally pay into the system albeit through false accounts (Porter 2005)"

QuoteWhat do you do for a living, may I ask?

I work in the General Aviation industry.

QuoteWrong.  The free market sets the wage.

Didn't say anything to the contrary.

QuoteWe're not pussyfooting around it.  RINOs and liberals do. 

Haven't seen one policy suggested to both fix immigration, and reduce welfare to immigrants. Perfect solution in my mind, and it appeals even to an Obama voter.

QuoteWe have plenty of labor in our country. 

Businesses and Farmers in Arizona, Alabama, and Washington all disagreed when each of their states started cracking down on Illegals.

Crops were left to rot because they didn't have enough gatherers, blue collar jobs that had been empty for decades before the immigrants showed up, were once again empty.

The laws cost the state economies billions, and its why similiar laws weren't enacted in Kansas and Kentucky, among others.

QuoteWe don't need to import crime and disease.

An age-old objection to immigration.

People suggested to block the Irish because they were thought to have cholera. European Jews were seen as carriers for tuberculosis. Asians were alleged to have hookworm.

Crime? Had it in plenty, the first illegal immigrants we had were the Chinese, as we sought to block their entry for having too many "prostitutes, Opiates and gangs".

Turns out, despite all that, the Chinese are some of the most productive people on the planet. Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Malaysia, can't all be wrong, nor American-Chinese regularly outperforming white-Americans. 

We could have done with a few more million of them. And considering Asians are the growing face of both legal and illegal immigration, we may just get our chance.

QuoteThe free market will take care of that.  You don't have to worry.

The Free market includes the rest of the world.

You don't just draw an economy upon national boundaries, that's arbitrary as it forgets that trade occurs.

It doesn't help us to slap high tariffs on foreign made goods, it doesn't help us to forcibly stop our companies from going overseas, it doesn't help us to stop foreign companies from setting up shop here, it doesn't help us to stop Americans from going to work overseas, and it doesn't help us to stop foreign labor from working here.

In short, Economic Protectionism of any sort, is counterproductive.

More people = more economy. More Goods & services. More laborers, more consumers, more wealth.

QuoteThey don't think like you,

You didn't read them then.

CATO:

"Most of this debate involves wishful thinking: the claim that stricter border controls or Arizona-like measures can make a real difference. The reality is that only four policies can significantly reduce illegal immigration.

The first is allowing more legal immigration. This point is obvious but worth emphasizing. The United States has an illegal immigration problem because it restricts legal immigration. So long as large wage differences persist between the U.S. and other countries, especially Latin America, the desire to immigrate will persist and occur illegally if it is not permitted legally.

...

The second way to reduce illegal immigration is to expand free trade. If goods can move freely across countries, the demand for low-skill labor will shift from the United States to poorer countries, raising wages there relative to here and reducing the incentive to immigrate.

...

The policies that will do little to shrink illegal immigration are increased border enforcement, stiffer punishments for employers who hire illegals, or aggressive arrest policies such as those adopted in Arizona. These measures are ineffective because they do not change the fact that wages in the U.S. are attractive compared to wages in poor countries. "

Do I need to quote the others, or will this suffice?

QuoteFriedman, for example, was making the case about how stupid it is that being legal would disqualify you for benefits (at that time), while coming over illegally would give you benefits,

I have the video of what he says right here. What speech are you talking about? You may be right here, he did live long after this.

Quote from: taxed on August 22, 2014, 04:47:26 AM
Then why do we need illegals?

It's as Milton Friedman put it, it helps people from both sides of the border.

Being illegal, doesn't bar you from being productive, and why would it?

Someone is still hiring you, you're still doing a job, you're filling a vacancy, that's economic wealth on the table that otherwise wouldn't exist.

The "Need" to this though, is based on our own current labor shortages.

This is because of how American labor skills themselves are situated, currently, it looks like this:



American skills are primarily in the middle, while immigrant skills tend to be either very high, or very low.

To have more of the jobs in the middle for Americans to do, you need to have plenty of people at the bottom or the top. Those immigrants working those jobs help to make more of the American jobs possible.

Right now, our Legal immigration is not meeting our labor demands, we bring in too few. Companies hire illicit labor, because they need to fill the gap. Otherwise they're forced to leave work undone, and Americans go unemployed or do work at jobs of lesser station than what their skills could allow them to.

Quote from: Alaska Slim on August 22, 2014, 06:08:28 AM
It's as Milton Friedman put it, it helps people from both sides of the border.

Being illegal, doesn't bar you from being productive, and why would it?

Someone is still hiring you, you're still doing a job, you're filling a vacancy, that's economic wealth on the table that otherwise wouldn't exist.

The "Need" to this though, is based on our own current labor shortages.

This is because of how American labor skills themselves are situated, currently, it looks like this:



American skills are primarily in the middle, while immigrant skills tend to be either very high, or very low.

To have more of the jobs in the middle for Americans to do, you need to have plenty of people at the bottom or the top. Those immigrants working those jobs help to make more of the American jobs possible.

Right now, our Legal immigration is not meeting our labor demands, we bring in too few. Companies hire illicit labor, because they need to fill the gap. Otherwise they're forced to leave work undone, and Americans go unemployed or do work at jobs of lesser station than what their skills could allow them to.

You will have to refresh us on the high skills of the illegals.  How many doctors, scientists, dentists, lawyers, and engineers are pouring over the southern border  ?  I think everybody but you sees 99.95 % fruit pickers and landscaping laborers.  Maybe a couple guys who know how to frame or wire or plumb something.

I realize that you'll come back with some obtuse claim that 1 zillion geniuses are skulking around from India, Hong Kong, etc.....by virtue of expired visas or some such shit.

But ahhh, no.  If legal immigration and American labor can be shown to be failing at filling the jobs.....that's what we change.

We don't just magically suspend laws and repackage illegal as legal......as moron liberals are wont to  do.

I realize that responding to you is a fool's errand, waste of time, and dumb on my part.  It only gives you a new little jolt in the ass to rush back on here and post unendingly, obtusely, childishly yet again.  But I did it, dummy that I am.

Quote from: AndyJackson on August 22, 2014, 06:29:51 AM
You will have to refresh us on the high skills of the illegals.

40% of Illegals once had a skills visa. Big deal about that two pages back, you didn't see it?

QuoteI realize that you'll come back with some obtuse claim that 1 zillion geniuses are skulking

Why is Breitbart saying it then? You say it's obtuse, but they seem to believe it.

QuoteBut ahhh, no.  If legal immigration and American labor can be shown to be failing at filling the jobs.....that's what we change.

... How?

QuoteWe don't just magically suspend laws and repackage illegal as legal...

I'm not suggesting Amnesty, already said that.

QuoteI realize that responding to you is a fool's errand, waste of time, and dumb on my part.  It only gives you a new little jolt in the ass to rush back on here and post unendingly, obtusely, childishly yet again.  But I did it, dummy that I am.

Thank you for your time.

Most adults don't do the full-on parsing thing, a snippy incomplete little "answer" for every 5 words of somebody's post.

I note that this is all you do.

It's the maximum aggravation, best way to stretch out the obtuse.

We've seen it 100 times from 100 different 20-ish putzes.

Anybody can refer to any one of a million little quips or quotes or stats to "prove" their broad-brush, monolithic, vague claims.  It's a childish little pursuit that any fool can cull from unending hours on Wiki and Bing and Google.

Here you have 100% of respondents who agree that you're an annoying dolt.  Does this not factor into your behaviors at all, whatsoever  ?

Quote from: Alaska Slim on August 21, 2014, 09:52:41 PM
Alright, I'll continue, but first:



Just so you know now where I'm getting that from. (92%, I was 1% off.)
Your answer demonstrated disregard for Natural Law.

Natural Law's affirmation doesn't have to be complete, but if its not part of the framework, then the law is most likely illegitimate.

Holy Shit! Andy was right, you are an ignorant arrogant little piss ant.
Now you're claiming our Republic and it's claim to sovereignty is illegitimate, that natural law precedes US law, and therefore illicit?

Serious question. Have you ever ever noticed that wherever you go, whatever you say, leads to your abandonment?

I ask, only because, based on the shit you write, it's glaringly apparent your station in life is one of ostracization and isolation.
People simply don't want to be around you, because you live in an alternative universe.
You may want to reflect on that. Because like it or not, your ideas are not inline with reality.

Quote from: Solar on August 22, 2014, 07:07:02 AM
Holy Shit! Andy was right, you are an ignorant arrogant little piss ant.
Now you're claiming our Republic and it's claim to sovereignty is illegitimate, that natural law precedes US law, and therefore illicit?

Serious question. Have you ever ever noticed that wherever you go, whatever you say, leads to your abandonment?

I ask, only because, based on the shit you write, it's glaringly apparent your station in life is one of ostracization and isolation.
People simply don't want to be around you, because you live in an alternative universe.
You may want to reflect on that. Because like it or not, your ideas are not inline with reality.

I actually feel bad for picking on a kid sometimes.

But maybe his experience here can help him in some tiny way, to not be a boorish, bleating, fringe idiot for his whole life.

Maybe someday when he's not an outcast and has STFU at least a little, and has a little dignity and a couple of real friends / colleagues.......he'll look back and say "those guys helped me out a little".

Quote from: AndyJackson on August 22, 2014, 07:12:44 AM
I actually feel bad for picking on a kid sometimes.

But maybe his experience here can help him in some tiny way, to not be a boorish, bleating, fringe idiot for his whole life.

Maybe someday when he's not an outcast and has STFU at least a little, and has a little dignity and a couple of real friends / colleagues.......he'll look back and say "those guys helped me out a little".

You do have your work cut out for you if he is around that long.   

And I still think this "kid" sounds a lot like that guy who melted down here and crashed & burned.

Claimed he was the world's greatest conservative, knew everything about everything going back to the Magna Carta and de Toqueville and the Founders.  Everybody at CPF was a fake conservative, and he was rewriting all of the tenets of conservatism & constitutionalism....on his website / blog.

Really angry, bitter, all-consumed guy.  He was supposedly an older fella who had done everything that this world has to offer.  WTH was his name again ?

This just feels like the same guy, re-packaged as "young genius guy fresh from MIT-Cornell-Stanford".

Quote from: AndyJackson on August 22, 2014, 06:57:42 AM
Most adults don't do the full-on parsing thing,

Nor do I, we call it omnislashing in my other forum, and I resorted to it as it seemed what solar wanted me to do when talking to him. Was that intentional?

Quote from: AndyJackson on August 22, 2014, 07:12:44 AM
I actually feel bad for picking on a kid sometimes.

But maybe his experience here can help him in some tiny way, to not be a boorish, bleating, fringe idiot for his whole life.

Maybe someday when he's not an outcast and has STFU at least a little, and has a little dignity and a couple of real friends / colleagues.......he'll look back and say "those guys helped me out a little".

Literally cut from the mold of LIBertarian Anarchist, myopic by course, with an amazing ability to ignore human nature, while claiming his way is the only way, and law be damned!

Quote from: Alaska Slim on August 22, 2014, 07:19:11 AM
Nor do I, we call it omnislashing in my other forum, and I resorted to it as it seemed what solar wanted me to do when talking to him. Was that intentional?

lol, you certainly are stretching things out and "making us answer you", like the kiddies seem to love doing.

Very deft.

"I don't do that.  You made me do it".  Cute.

I will give you one thing, you have a clever template, and have avoided the melt down.  You can't really make anything of this in real life, but it's something that you can be "proud of" for a few minutes anyway,

Quote from: AndyJackson on August 22, 2014, 07:18:50 AM
And I still think this "kid" sounds a lot like that guy who melted down here and crashed & burned.

Claimed he was the world's greatest conservative, knew everything about everything going back to the Magna Carta and de Toqueville and the Founders.  Everybody at CPF was a fake conservative, and he was rewriting all of the tenets of conservatism & constitutionalism....on his website / blog.

Really angry, bitter, all-consumed guy.  He was supposedly an older fella who had done everything that this world has to offer.  WTH was his name again ?

This just feels like the same guy, re-packaged as "young genius guy fresh from MIT-Cornell-Stanford".

Trip. And use the quote function ya freakin rock head!

His moniker was Trip, and quite fitting, because the guy really was a Trip.
Though not the same guy here, Trip was at least smart, nuts, but smart, but like this one, suffered the same mental malady of ignoring pragmatism as well as human nature.

Quote from: Solar on August 22, 2014, 07:21:28 AM
Literally cut from the mold of LIBertarian Anarchist, myopic by course, with an amazing ability to ignore human nature, while claiming his way is the only way, and law be damned!

lol, I can always picture him / them so clearly in my mind.

Little skinny jeans (black of course), Vans sneakers (checkerboard of course), T-Shirt with an almost-tied tie (no shit, I actually see this on my son's campus), vaguely ivy-league coat, some kind of silly retro hat (Fred McMurray-like, haha), and the obligatory horn-rimmed glasses.  All brought together with a goofy package of emo/nihilist hair & chin stubble.

Thank God my son laughs at them, and isn't like them.